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Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Our Constitution

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  • bill Jambura
    Chuck, I agree and invite you back to my original rebuttal to Frank. Implicit in that rebuttal is that it doesn t matter to the consumer who pumps the crude
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 10 11:05 PM
      Chuck,

      I agree and invite you back to my original rebuttal to Frank. Implicit
      in that rebuttal is that it doesn't matter to the consumer who pumps the
      crude out of the ground, since OPEC fixes the price anyway. But it does
      matter to the transnational oil companies whether or not they are the one
      that gets to profit from pumping that crude. Thus the rift between the
      major players in the European Union and Britain over Iraq. It's not
      about religion, freedom or democracy, it's about who gets the profits.

      Again, if BP wants to control that oil, then let the Brits die for it.
      Or better yet, let all the oil companies hire their own mercenaries to
      capture and control those resources. But, I don't blame them for their
      ways. As a matter of good business, it's less expensive (more cost
      effective) for oil companies to buy puppet governments and career
      politicians who'll use their nations armies to secure the resources for
      them. Even Adam Smith realized corporations have a bottom line instead
      of a conscious.

      As for the pipeline in Afghanistan, you're adding a more realistic reason
      for America to be there--profits. I suppose if we disturbed the drug
      lords who sponsor global terrorists the pipeline project would suffer
      greatly. It's funny how money can rapidly eclipses the moral high
      ground.

      Bill

      On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 03:07:32 -0000 "pusherprop" <pusherprop3@...>
      writes:
      >
      >
      > Let's don't forget our over-riding goal in the Middle East is to
      > keep
      > the oil flowing. A major disruption of the oil supply would send
      > the
      > world into an immediate financial crisis, and possibly something
      > much
      > worse. For example the world credit system could begin to unfold.
      > This is something that no American President wants to happen on his
      > watch. They'll all bend over backward to avoid something like
      > this.
      >
      > So stop looking at the trees (WMDs, pipelines, Iraqi oil) and take
      > a
      > look at the forest. On balance have we done anything to damage the
      > flow of Middle East oil, or conversely have we put strategies in
      > place
      > which strengthen the flow? Focus on Saudi Arabia as the key player
      > in
      > the region. The big picture isn't that hard to see.
      >
      > Chuck Seberg
      >
      >
      > > In anycase, the pipeline in question (which actually goes to
      > > Turkmenistan) was under
      > > development under the Taliban with US cooperation, and would have
      >
      > > been completed by now
      > > had we NOT invaded Afghanistan. Current plans for building it
      > pick
      > > up where that plan
      > > left off. There was never any question of it getting built prior
      > to
      > > the war, and the war actually
      > > delayed it by several years, so suggesting that the pipeline was a
      >
      > > reason for the war is just
      > > ridiculous.
      > >
      > > This kind of ill-informed assumption is what I spend most of my
      > time
      > > battling. Your pipeline
      > > story is sister to the popular liberal claim that we invaded Iraq
      > for
      > > oil - which makes no sense
      > > at all as we could get all the oil we wanted from Saddam without a
      >
      > > war which has shut production
      > > down almost completely. It's like the '14 Permanent Military
      > Bases
      > > in Iraq' claim which I debunked
      > > earlier this week (see http://www.diablog.us) or the famous red
      > > state/blue state IQ fantasy. People want to believe the worst, so
      >
      > > they latch on to some little tidbit of information, totally
      > > misunderstand or
      > > misinterpret or misrepresent it for their own purposes, spew it
      > out
      > > on the web and then people
      > > start taking it as gospel.
      > >
      > > Dave
      > > --
      > >
      > > -----
      > >
      > > Common Sense for Austin Politics
      > > www.commonsenseaustin.com
      > > Launching in the Spring of 2004
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • F Worley
      Your comments below are exactly why, recreational drugs use should be legalized, regulated and yes, TAXED. Right now we have 2 dramatic problems, crime and
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 11 7:49 AM
        Your comments below are exactly why, recreational drugs use should be legalized, regulated and yes, TAXED.  Right now we have 2 dramatic problems, crime and health.  By legalizing the crime (organized and most violent) would be eliminated as in the end of prohibition.  We would also save upwards of 100 billion dollars per year, by releasing everyone in prison currently held or on probation for drug related crimes.  (rough estimate).
         
        Then we are left with the health problem.  Which can be financed by the taxes raised by drug uesers. 
         
        Consider this:  While recreational drug use has remained mostly constant, both Alcohol and Tabacco use have been reduced dramatically in the last 20 years.
         
        I think we should take a stronger stance on the drug war.
         
        Frank

        DGHarrison <DGHarrison@...> wrote:
        ...what is meant by "flexible alternatives ... to combat the harmful aspects of drug use." I can't see any other outcome than costly taxpayer funded rehabilitation programs. So, it seems that drugs cost society whether they are being warred against (law enforcement) or made love to (drug rehab programs).

        Doug Harrison
        From the RLC website:
         
        "We recognize the harm that drug abuse causes, but also that the �drug war� has been ineffective and has led to terrible abuses of personal liberty. We favor flexible alternatives at the state and community level to combat the harmful aspects of drug use."


      • westmiller@aol.com
        Good analysis from Jeff Palmer of the RLC position on drugs. From: Jeff Palmer I think it s safe to say that most RLCers favor at least
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 11 11:11 AM
             Good analysis from Jeff Palmer of the RLC position on drugs.
          From: "Jeff Palmer" <jap@...>
          I think it's safe to say that most RLCers favor at least substantive
          legalization but would prefer that we not allow ourselves to lead with our
          chin on the issue to the detriment of our broader objectives...
              The Statement attempts to apply the Principles of the prefix to
          current topics, without itemizing "platform positions", where
          there can be an honest dispute of the facts and proper law. Note
          that it applies to *all drugs*, not just hallucinogens or narcotics.
          The position is just as applicable to alcohol, cigarettes, and
          prescription medicines as it is to marijuana or cocaine.
          "We recognize the harm that drug abuse causes..." is a "Ransberger Pivot".
              I haven't heard the term "Ransberger Pivot", but all of the
          Positions start by granting legitimate social or political concerns,
          then articulating a principled response.
          ... Flexible alternatives could include legalization, decriminalization, availability by
          prescription, elimination of unconstitutional means of enforcement, etc.
              ... as well as the "radical" position that would only support
          laws protecting minors (who can't give informed consent), fraud
          (adulteration or fake chemical products), and copyright.
          Such inspecificity has the advantage of being inclusive of all of our
          members' thinking and, thus, non-divisive to us an organization.  It also
          has the advantage of clearly placing us on the side of the issue calling for
          a change in our current drug policy while not placing us so "in your face"
          of the prevailing social conservative opinion that we compromise our ability
          to act as a force within the GOP.
              Exactly correct. It allows us to support "interim steps" that
          conform with our principles, such as legalized medical marijuana,
          the abolition of rigid minimum drug sentences, and FDA dictates
          on "safe and effective" licensing.
              Since the purpose of this eGroup is to discuss RLC *Action*,
          not debate issues, our chapters use the "World's Smallest Political
          Quiz" from the Advocates (self-gov.org), which includes the issue
          statement: "Repeal laws prohibiting adult possession and use of
          drugs?"
              Now, as to doing some serious work, we have an agreement
          with the Marijuana Policy Project [MPP] to exchange mailing
          lists - from over a year ago - but haven't had anyone who had the
          time and interest to compose a solicitation to their members.
              If anyone is willing to take on this outreach project, please let
          me know ASAP.
           
          Bill Westmiller
          RLC Chairman
        • Kevin Boyd
          Bill, I m off from university until late-January. I can at least get started on soliciting the MPP mailing list. So count me in. Kevin Boyd Interim Coordinator
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 11 8:01 PM
            Bill,

            I'm off from university until late-January. I can at least get started
            on soliciting the MPP mailing list. So count me in.

            Kevin Boyd
            Interim Coordinator
            RLC-Louisiana

            --- In RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com, westmiller@a... wrote:
            > Good analysis from Jeff Palmer of the RLC position on drugs.
            > From: "Jeff Palmer" <jap@h...>
            > I think it's safe to say that most RLCers favor at least substantive
            > legalization but would prefer that we not allow ourselves to lead
            with our
            > chin on the issue to the detriment of our broader objectives...
            > The Statement attempts to apply the Principles of the prefix to
            > current topics, without itemizing "platform positions", where
            > there can be an honest dispute of the facts and proper law. Note
            > that it applies to *all drugs*, not just hallucinogens or narcotics.
            > The position is just as applicable to alcohol, cigarettes, and
            > prescription medicines as it is to marijuana or cocaine.
            > "We recognize the harm that drug abuse causes..." is a "Ransberger
            Pivot".
            > I haven't heard the term "Ransberger Pivot", but all of the
            > Positions start by granting legitimate social or political concerns,
            > then articulating a principled response.
            > ... Flexible alternatives could include legalization,
            decriminalization,
            > availability by
            > prescription, elimination of unconstitutional means of enforcement,
            etc.
            > ... as well as the "radical" position that would only support
            > laws protecting minors (who can't give informed consent), fraud
            > (adulteration or fake chemical products), and copyright.
            > Such inspecificity has the advantage of being inclusive of all of
            our
            > members' thinking and, thus, non-divisive to us an organization. It
            also
            > has the advantage of clearly placing us on the side of the issue
            calling for
            > a change in our current drug policy while not placing us so "in your
            face"
            > of the prevailing social conservative opinion that we compromise our
            ability
            > to act as a force within the GOP.
            > Exactly correct. It allows us to support "interim steps" that
            > conform with our principles, such as legalized medical marijuana,
            > the abolition of rigid minimum drug sentences, and FDA dictates
            > on "safe and effective" licensing.
            > Since the purpose of this eGroup is to discuss RLC *Action*,
            > not debate issues, our chapters use the "World's Smallest Political
            > Quiz" from the Advocates (self-gov.org), which includes the issue
            > statement: "Repeal laws prohibiting adult possession and use of
            > drugs?"
            > Now, as to doing some serious work, we have an agreement
            > with the Marijuana Policy Project [MPP] to exchange mailing
            > lists - from over a year ago - but haven't had anyone who had the
            > time and interest to compose a solicitation to their members.
            > If anyone is willing to take on this outreach project, please
            let
            > me know ASAP.
            >
            > Bill Westmiller
            > RLC Chairman
          • westmiller@aol.com
            Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 04:01:20 -0000 From: Kevin Boyd _kevinboyd1984@yahoo.com_ (mailto:kevinboyd1984@yahoo.com) ... Excellent. The primary task is
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 12 11:16 AM
                 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 04:01:20 -0000
                 From: "Kevin Boyd" kevinboyd1984@...

              >
              I'm off from university until late-January. I can at least get started
              >
              on soliciting the MPP mailing list. So count me in.
               
                  Excellent. The primary task is composing the solicitation letter
              and other materials that would go into the mailing. We have to get
              approval of those materials from MPP before we get the list for
              mailing. The package also needs to be reviewed by the RLC Board
              before submission to MPP. To start, draft a letter that you think
              would be appealing and motivate their members to join the RLC.
              Suggest an enclosure that would directly address the issue,
              perhaps from some prominent RLC advocate (I'm not sure that
              we can reach Gary Johnson, but Lyn Nofzinger is on the RLC
              Advisory Board and certainly well known).
               
              Bill
            • Barry Moore
              Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline? Answer: I think it was a high point of
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 13 8:21 AM
                "Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?"
                 
                Answer: I think it was a high point of consideration.

                F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
                The original point was that we were only liberating oil rich nations, a point I took issue with.  I think the discussion is now a bit off topic, so you can respond to me personally at worley_f2003@... if you wish. 
                 
                Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?
                 
                Frank

                Barry Moore <b_moore@...> wrote:
                Frank,
                 
                "We brought democracy (already) to Afghanistan, no oil there."
                 
                Nope, just building a pipeline across Afghanistan to Khurzikstan where there IS oil.
                 
                --- Barry
                 
                "Trade with all, entangling alliances with none" - Thomas Jefferson, 1801
                 
                "�It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world.�
                - George Washington, 1797

                F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
                 

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              • bill Jambura
                Binary arguments work well in spin machines. But I don t see it as an either or , but an and too . Please go back a few e-mails in this series to read my
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 13 11:10 AM
                  Binary arguments work well in spin machines.  But I don't see it as an "either or", but an "and too".  Please go back a few e-mails in this series to read my e-mail of 10 Dec 04 reprinted below: 
                   
                  "Well said Barry! 
                   
                  Also, we went into Afghanistan to get the Taliban and Bin Ladin who sponsored attacks on America--no doubts there.  We have every right to be there.  Some people still like to blur Afghanistan with what we're doing in Iraq. 
                   
                  As a foot note, we didn't and won't  touch the poppy fields in Afghanistan--never mind our War on Drugs.  Yet, we're told that illegal drug traffic is a major funding source for terrorists.  So who really controls Afghanistan, the new president or the drug lords who sponsor the terrorists?  A question that extends to many of  the "democracies" in South and Central America.  Maybe it's time to invent a new term:  DINO--Democracy In Name Only."
                   
                  (In real time, I'm pleased to hear that we are now going to go after the opium lords in Afghanistan.  The sooner we send them to Allah, the better for all!  I just wish we were more aggressive in South and Central America, instead of pursuing the end users in our own country at the peril of everyone's civil rights.)
                   
                  Bill Jambura
                   
                   
                   
                  On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:21:46 -0800 (PST) Barry Moore <b_moore@...> writes:
                  "Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?"
                   
                  Answer: I think it was a high point of consideration.

                  F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
                  The original point was that we were only liberating oil rich nations, a point I took issue with.  I think the discussion is now a bit off topic, so you can respond to me personally at worley_f2003@... if you wish. 
                   
                  Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?
                   
                  Frank

                  Barry Moore <b_moore@...> wrote:
                  Frank,
                   
                  "We brought democracy (already) to Afghanistan, no oil there."
                   
                  Nope, just building a pipeline across Afghanistan to Khurzikstan where there IS oil.
                   
                  --- Barry
                   
                  "Trade with all, entangling alliances with none" - Thomas Jefferson, 1801
                   
                  "It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world.
                  - George Washington, 1797

                  F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
                   

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                • Chuck Seberg
                  I see lots of binary logic on this list. But you must know the government figures everything six ways from Sunday before they make a move. If the invasion of
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 13 5:23 PM
                    I see lots of binary logic on this list.  But you must know the government figures everything six ways from Sunday before they make a move.  If the invasion of Afganistan accomplished a major goal (neutralizing the terrorists), and had half a dozen beneficial side-effects, so much the better.  Nothing surprising in that.
                     
                    I have a book recommendation for you guys.  It's "Taliban" by Ahmed Rashid.  He's a Pakistani journalist who got inside the Taliban, and does a good job of laying out Afghanistan before the US invasion.  It was far from a simple situation then, so I doubt our involvement is anything but simple now.  Not really something which lends itself to simple analysis.
                     
                    BTW, what does any of this have to do with RLC-Action?
                     
                    Chuck Seberg
                     
                     

                    Binary arguments work well in spin machines.  But I don't see it as an "either or", but an "and too".  Please go back a few e-mails in this series to read my e-mail of 10 Dec 04 reprinted below: 
                     
                    "Well said Barry! 
                     
                    Also, we went into Afghanistan to get the Taliban and Bin Ladin who sponsored attacks on America--no doubts there.  We have every right to be there.  Some people still like to blur Afghanistan with what we're doing in Iraq. 
                     
                    As a foot note, we didn't and won't  touch the poppy fields in Afghanistan--never mind our War on Drugs.  Yet, we're told that illegal drug traffic is a major funding source for terrorists.  So who really controls Afghanistan, the new president or the drug lords who sponsor the terrorists?  A question that extends to many of  the "democracies" in South and Central America.  Maybe it's time to invent a new term:  DINO--Democracy In Name Only."
                     
                    (In real time, I'm pleased to hear that we are now going to go after the opium lords in Afghanistan.  The sooner we send them to Allah, the better for all!  I just wish we were more aggressive in South and Central America, instead of pursuing the end users in our own country at the peril of everyone's civil rights.)
                     
                    Bill Jambura
                     
                     
                     
                    On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:21:46 -0800 (PST) Barry Moore <b_moore@...> writes:
                    "Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?"
                     
                    Answer: I think it was a high point of consideration.

                    F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
                    The original point was that we were only liberating oil rich nations, a point I took issue with.  I think the discussion is now a bit off topic, so you can respond to me personally at worley_f2003@... if you wish. 
                     
                    Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?
                     
                    Frank

                    Barry Moore <b_moore@...> wrote:
                    Frank,
                     
                    "We brought democracy (already) to Afghanistan, no oil there."
                     
                    Nope, just building a pipeline across Afghanistan to Khurzikstan where there IS oil.
                     
                    --- Barry
                     
                    "Trade with all, entangling alliances with none" - Thomas Jefferson, 1801
                     
                    "It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world.
                    - George Washington, 1797

                    F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
                     

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                  • Guy McLendon
                    Why only send in Agent 007 with a letter of marque when you can instead send in the Marines, and have the pipeline as a bonus? ... From: Barry Moore To:
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 13 6:16 PM
                      Why only send in Agent 007 with a letter of marque when you can instead send in the Marines, and have the pipeline as a bonus?
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 8:21 AM
                      Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Our Constitution

                      "Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?"
                       
                      Answer: I think it was a high point of consideration.

                    • F Worley
                      I think being cynical (forgive my early morning spelling) is probably a good thing. But there is a limit. We harm our own credibility, when we allege
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 14 5:15 AM
                        I think being  cynical  (forgive my early morning spelling) is probably a good thing.  But there is a limit.  We harm our own credibility, when we allege things as silly as this.  It really is irresponsible to say or even allege that the US invaded afghanistan for the sole purpose of getting a pipeline or with that in mind or as a primary benifit. 
                         
                        The Taliban were given an opportunity to hand over Bin Laden and could have done so and kept their control over the country, they refused. 
                         
                        Our ability to be effective in actions we support or take, is directly affected by how people perceive us.  If we make wild accusations, with lilttle or not basis in fact or relevence to the issues of the day, we cannot hope to have an impact.
                         
                        You may believe these accusations are based in fact, but are they really relevent to what is going on in our nation? 
                         
                        More importantly, it implies that, were we in charge, we would not have invaded Afghanistan in order to avoid the perception that we might be trading blood for oil.
                         
                        And who would vote for someone afraid to defend the nation because it my be misinterpreted as a drive for oil?
                         
                        Frank

                        Guy McLendon <guy@...> wrote:
                        Why only send in Agent 007 with a letter of marque when you can instead send in the Marines, and have the pipeline as a bonus?
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 8:21 AM
                        Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Our Constitution

                        "Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?"
                         
                        Answer: I think it was a high point of consideration.


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