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Re: [RLC-Action] Our Constitution

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  • Barry Moore
    Frank, We brought democracy (already) to Afghanistan, no oil there. Nope, just building a pipeline across Afghanistan to Khurzikstan where there IS oil. ...
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 10, 2004
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      Frank,
       
      "We brought democracy (already) to Afghanistan, no oil there."
       
      Nope, just building a pipeline across Afghanistan to Khurzikstan where there IS oil.
       
      --- Barry
       
      "Trade with all, entangling alliances with none" - Thomas Jefferson, 1801
       
      "�It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world.�
      - George Washington, 1797

      F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
      Bill,
       
      I won't bother to debate the cold war politics and bad foreign policy.  Nothing to debate.  I think when you take things in the context of the times, it made sense, but yes, it was a very short sighted policy, that created alot of problems for us.
       
      We brought democracy (already) to Afghanistan, no oil there.  So I take issue that we only support democracy in oil rich nations.  We helped create (to one degree or another) all of the democracies in south america as well.  I think that behind the scenes (at least from what I gather), the democratazation of the middle east was part of the original plan, the Bush administration did not try to sell that upfront.  We could debate whether or not that was the right idea.
       
      I would not call myself a faithful Bush follower.  Yes, I voted for him, but truthfully, I only voted for him because I support him and his team on National Defense issues, and not that much more.  Iook forward however, to see how successful he is on Social Security and tax reform.
       
      Back to the topic.
       
      Regarding other nations with WMD, I don't think Isreal is or will ever be a threat to us.  Pakistan and India are working with us, Russia is our friend of late and fighting China, might lead to the end of Human Civilization.  (Patrick Henry aside, People ain't free if they are dead)
       
      I guess if I were to sum up my beliefs as far as foreign policy goes, it would be something like this:
       
      1- Defense of the Nation
      2- Defense of Freedom
      3- Defense of our friends
      4- Pragmatism
       
      That's the way I am approaching this.
       
      And yes, I do think that we ignore alot of genocide, especially in Africa and southeast Asia.  I won't speculate as to why that is.
       
      Frank


      bill Jambura <jambura@...> wrote:

      Well, okay Frank.  You've brought up some good points, but I must rebut. 

       

      Before I do, let me say that I have no qualms about killing terrorists or going to war when the cause is clear, just and unwavering.  You don't get to make it up as you go.  You come up with the reason before you march your armies and the killing and dying starts. 

       

      Some may put your blind faith and trust in Pres. Bush, a mere mortal man with all the failings and trappings thereof; but I�ll put my faith and trust in God, only.  While it�s hard to reason with Bush's faithful, I�m guessing that every blind believer in Bush is already wearing a uniform and fighting for democracy in Iraq, unless they�re one of the faithful who wants someone else to go fight and die on their behalf.

       

      As I said before, when every reason for invading Iraq fell short of the truth, they offered up democracy like a shot over the moon.  But it�s funny that we are only interested in democratizing oil rich countries and ignore genocide and despotism elsewhere.  A fine parsing of moral imperatives don�t you think? 

       



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    • bill Jambura
      Well said Barry! Also, we went into Afghanistan to get the Taliban and Bin Ladin who sponsored attacks on America--no doubts there. We have every right to be
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 10, 2004
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        Well said Barry! 
         
        Also, we went into Afghanistan to get the Taliban and Bin Ladin who sponsored attacks on America--no doubts there.  We have every right to be there.  Some people still like to blur Afghanistan with what we're doing in Iraq. 
         
        As a foot note, we didn't and won't  touch the poppy fields in Afghanistan--never mind our War on Drugs.  Yet, we're told that illegal drug traffic is a major funding source for terrorists.  So who really controls Afghanistan, the new president or the drug lords who sponsor the terrorists?  A question that extends to many of  the "democracies" in South and Central America.  Maybe it's time to invent a new term:  DINO--Democracy In Name Only. 
         
        Bill
         
        On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 08:26:00 -0800 (PST) Barry Moore <b_moore@...> writes:
        Frank,
         
        "We brought democracy (already) to Afghanistan, no oil there."
         
        Nope, just building a pipeline across Afghanistan to Khurzikstan where there IS oil.
         
        --- Barry
         
        "Trade with all, entangling alliances with none" - Thomas Jefferson, 1801
         
        "It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world.
        - George Washington, 1797

        F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
        Bill,
         
        I won't bother to debate the cold war politics and bad foreign policy.  Nothing to debate.  I think when you take things in the context of the times, it made sense, but yes, it was a very short sighted policy, that created alot of problems for us.
         
        We brought democracy (already) to Afghanistan, no oil there.  So I take issue that we only support democracy in oil rich nations.  We helped create (to one degree or another) all of the democracies in south america as well.  I think that behind the scenes (at least from what I gather), the democratazation of the middle east was part of the original plan, the Bush administration did not try to sell that upfront.  We could debate whether or not that was the right idea.
         
        I would not call myself a faithful Bush follower.  Yes, I voted for him, but truthfully, I only voted for him because I support him and his team on National Defense issues, and not that much more.  Iook forward however, to see how successful he is on Social Security and tax reform.
         
        Back to the topic.
         
        Regarding other nations with WMD, I don't think Isreal is or will ever be a threat to us.  Pakistan and India are working with us, Russia is our friend of late and fighting China, might lead to the end of Human Civilization.  (Patrick Henry aside, People ain't free if they are dead)
         
        I guess if I were to sum up my beliefs as far as foreign policy goes, it would be something like this:
         
        1- Defense of the Nation
        2- Defense of Freedom
        3- Defense of our friends
        4- Pragmatism
         
        That's the way I am approaching this.
         
        And yes, I do think that we ignore alot of genocide, especially in Africa and southeast Asia.  I won't speculate as to why that is.
         
        Frank


        bill Jambura <jambura@...> wrote:

        Well, okay Frank.  You've brought up some good points, but I must rebut. 

         

        Before I do, let me say that I have no qualms about killing terrorists or going to war when the cause is clear, just and unwavering.  You don't get to make it up as you go.  You come up with the reason before you march your armies and the killing and dying starts. 

         

        Some may put your blind faith and trust in Pres. Bush, a mere mortal man with all the failings and trappings thereof; but Ill put my faith and trust in God, only.  While its hard to reason with Bush's faithful, Im guessing that every blind believer in Bush is already wearing a uniform and fighting for democracy in Iraq, unless theyre one of the faithful who wants someone else to go fight and die on their behalf.

         

        As I said before, when every reason for invading Iraq fell short of the truth, they offered up democracy like a shot over the moon.  But its funny that we are only interested in democratizing oil rich countries and ignore genocide and despotism elsewhere.  A fine parsing of moral imperatives dont you think? 

         



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      • F Worley
        The original point was that we were only liberating oil rich nations, a point I took issue with. I think the discussion is now a bit off topic, so you can
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 10, 2004
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          The original point was that we were only liberating oil rich nations, a point I took issue with.  I think the discussion is now a bit off topic, so you can respond to me personally at worley_f2003@... if you wish. 
           
          Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?
           
          Frank

          Barry Moore <b_moore@...> wrote:
          Frank,
           
          "We brought democracy (already) to Afghanistan, no oil there."
           
          Nope, just building a pipeline across Afghanistan to Khurzikstan where there IS oil.
           
          --- Barry
           
          "Trade with all, entangling alliances with none" - Thomas Jefferson, 1801
           
          "�It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world.�
          - George Washington, 1797

          F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
           
        • F Worley
          Speaking of Drugs, what is the current RLC position on drug legalization? I m for it, with some regulation under the interstate commerce clause and states
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 10, 2004
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            Speaking of Drugs,

             

            what is the current RLC position on drug legalization?  I'm for it, with some regulation under the interstate commerce clause and states being allowed to determine their own course of action.

             

            Frank

          • Jeff Palmer
            From the RLC website: We recognize the harm that drug abuse causes, but also that the ‘drug war’ has been ineffective and has led to terrible abuses of
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 10, 2004
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              From the RLC website:
               
              "We recognize the harm that drug abuse causes, but also that the ‘drug war’ has been ineffective and has led to terrible abuses of personal liberty. We favor flexible alternatives at the state and community level to combat the harmful aspects of drug use."

              Jeff Palmer - jap@...
              * * *
              Quote of the Week: "You support the drug-war because you're addicted to power."
              "I'm not addicted to power."
              "Denial is the first sign of addiction!"

              -----Original Message-----
              From: F Worley [mailto:worley_f2003@...]
              Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 7:23 PM
              To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [RLC-Action] Speaking of Drugs

              Speaking of Drugs,

              what is the current RLC position on drug legalization?  I'm for it, with some regulation under the interstate commerce clause and states being allowed to determine their own course of action.

              Frank

            • Dave Nalle
              ... Isn t Khurzikstan next to Ruritania? I think you are thinking of either Khazakstan, Kurdistan or possibly Kuzikstan (which I don t think has existed since
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 10, 2004
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                >Frank,
                >
                >"We brought democracy (already) to Afghanistan, no oil there."
                >
                >Nope, just building a pipeline across Afghanistan to Khurzikstan
                >where there IS oil.

                Isn't Khurzikstan next to Ruritania? I think you are thinking of
                either Khazakstan, Kurdistan or possibly
                Kuzikstan (which I don't think has existed since the 13th century),
                though none of those is actually
                correct.

                In anycase, the pipeline in question (which actually goes to
                Turkmenistan) was under
                development under the Taliban with US cooperation, and would have
                been completed by now
                had we NOT invaded Afghanistan. Current plans for building it pick
                up where that plan
                left off. There was never any question of it getting built prior to
                the war, and the war actually
                delayed it by several years, so suggesting that the pipeline was a
                reason for the war is just
                ridiculous.

                This kind of ill-informed assumption is what I spend most of my time
                battling. Your pipeline
                story is sister to the popular liberal claim that we invaded Iraq for
                oil - which makes no sense
                at all as we could get all the oil we wanted from Saddam without a
                war which has shut production
                down almost completely. It's like the '14 Permanent Military Bases
                in Iraq' claim which I debunked
                earlier this week (see http://www.diablog.us) or the famous red
                state/blue state IQ fantasy. People want to believe the worst, so
                they latch on to some little tidbit of information, totally
                misunderstand or
                misinterpret or misrepresent it for their own purposes, spew it out
                on the web and then people
                start taking it as gospel.

                Dave
                --

                -----

                Common Sense for Austin Politics
                www.commonsenseaustin.com
                Launching in the Spring of 2004
              • Dave Nalle
                ... I think that means support for decriminalization but not full-out legalization, am I right? Dave -- ... Common Sense for Austin Politics
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 10, 2004
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                  >From the RLC website:
                  >
                  >"We recognize the harm that drug abuse causes,
                  >but also that the ‘drug war’ has been
                  >ineffective and has led to terrible abuses of
                  >personal liberty. We favor flexible alternatives
                  >at the state and community level to combat the
                  >harmful aspects of drug use."

                  I think that means support for decriminalization
                  but not full-out legalization, am I right?

                  Dave
                  --

                  -----

                  Common Sense for Austin Politics
                  www.commonsenseaustin.com
                  Launching in the Spring of 2004
                • DGHarrison
                  I m okay with medicinal uses for effective drugs, but I m against throwing the gates open to recreational drug use. That s just the full disclosure so you know
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 10, 2004
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                    I'm okay with medicinal uses for effective drugs, but I'm against throwing the gates open to recreational drug use. That's just the full disclosure so you know where I stand before I question that item from the RLC website. The first sentence is an acceptable statement of truth, but the second sentence leaves me wondering what is meant by "flexible alternatives ... to combat the harmful aspects of drug use." I can't see any other outcome than costly taxpayer funded rehabilitation programs. So, it seems that drugs cost society whether they are being warred against (law enforcement) or made love to (drug rehab programs).

                    Doug Harrison
                    From the RLC website:
                     
                    "We recognize the harm that drug abuse causes, but also that the ‘drug war’ has been ineffective and has led to terrible abuses of personal liberty. We favor flexible alternatives at the state and community level to combat the harmful aspects of drug use."

                  • pusherprop
                    Let s don t forget our over-riding goal in the Middle East is to keep the oil flowing. A major disruption of the oil supply would send the world into an
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 10, 2004
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                      Let's don't forget our over-riding goal in the Middle East is to keep
                      the oil flowing. A major disruption of the oil supply would send the
                      world into an immediate financial crisis, and possibly something much
                      worse. For example the world credit system could begin to unfold.
                      This is something that no American President wants to happen on his
                      watch. They'll all bend over backward to avoid something like this.

                      So stop looking at the trees (WMDs, pipelines, Iraqi oil) and take a
                      look at the forest. On balance have we done anything to damage the
                      flow of Middle East oil, or conversely have we put strategies in place
                      which strengthen the flow? Focus on Saudi Arabia as the key player in
                      the region. The big picture isn't that hard to see.

                      Chuck Seberg


                      > In anycase, the pipeline in question (which actually goes to
                      > Turkmenistan) was under
                      > development under the Taliban with US cooperation, and would have
                      > been completed by now
                      > had we NOT invaded Afghanistan. Current plans for building it pick
                      > up where that plan
                      > left off. There was never any question of it getting built prior to
                      > the war, and the war actually
                      > delayed it by several years, so suggesting that the pipeline was a
                      > reason for the war is just
                      > ridiculous.
                      >
                      > This kind of ill-informed assumption is what I spend most of my time
                      > battling. Your pipeline
                      > story is sister to the popular liberal claim that we invaded Iraq for
                      > oil - which makes no sense
                      > at all as we could get all the oil we wanted from Saddam without a
                      > war which has shut production
                      > down almost completely. It's like the '14 Permanent Military Bases
                      > in Iraq' claim which I debunked
                      > earlier this week (see http://www.diablog.us) or the famous red
                      > state/blue state IQ fantasy. People want to believe the worst, so
                      > they latch on to some little tidbit of information, totally
                      > misunderstand or
                      > misinterpret or misrepresent it for their own purposes, spew it out
                      > on the web and then people
                      > start taking it as gospel.
                      >
                      > Dave
                      > --
                      >
                      > -----
                      >
                      > Common Sense for Austin Politics
                      > www.commonsenseaustin.com
                      > Launching in the Spring of 2004
                    • John David Galt
                      ... Seems like a reasonable weasel-position, but I hope what it really means is that any move toward the eventual goal of full legalization is encouraged. At
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 10, 2004
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                        > From the RLC website:
                        >
                        > "We recognize the harm that drug abuse causes, but also that the ‘drug
                        > war’ has been ineffective and has led to terrible abuses of personal
                        > liberty. We favor flexible alternatives at the state and community level
                        > to combat the harmful aspects of drug use."

                        Seems like a reasonable weasel-position, but I hope what it really means is
                        that any move toward the eventual goal of full legalization is encouraged.
                        At the very least, those recreational drugs that _can_ be safely consumed
                        (and that's most of them) should be legal for adults, with regulations along
                        the lines of the present laws concerning alcohol (or less strict).

                        But personally, I won't be satisfied until all drugs are fully legal for
                        adults -- and until the lying thugs who have been locking up users and
                        sellers for the last century are hauled in front of "Nuremberg courts", then
                        into prison in place of their victims. Every single one of them.
                      • Dave Nalle
                        ... Well, rehab is cheaper and more effective than locking people up in jail. Plus it doesn t carry with it all of the negative civil rights baggage that the
                        Message 11 of 27 , Dec 10, 2004
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                          >I'm okay with medicinal uses for effective drugs, but I'm against
                          >throwing the gates open to recreational drug use. That's just the
                          >full disclosure so you know where I stand before I question that
                          >item from the RLC website. The first sentence is an acceptable
                          >statement of truth, but the second sentence leaves me wondering what
                          >is meant by "flexible alternatives ... to combat the harmful aspects
                          >of drug use." I can't see any other outcome than costly taxpayer
                          >funded rehabilitation programs. So, it seems that drugs cost society
                          >whether they are being warred against (law enforcement) or made love
                          >to (drug rehab programs).

                          Well, rehab is cheaper and more effective than locking people up in
                          jail. Plus it doesn't carry with it all of the negative civil rights
                          baggage that the war on drugs has produced. IMO as long as the drug
                          is no worse than alcohol it might as well be legal for adults in the
                          privacy of their own homes. We should judge people by what harm they
                          do to others, not by what they do to themselves.

                          Dave
                          --

                          -----

                          Common Sense for Austin Politics
                          www.commonsenseaustin.com
                          Launching in the Spring of 2004
                        • bill Jambura
                          Chuck, I agree and invite you back to my original rebuttal to Frank. Implicit in that rebuttal is that it doesn t matter to the consumer who pumps the crude
                          Message 12 of 27 , Dec 10, 2004
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                            Chuck,

                            I agree and invite you back to my original rebuttal to Frank. Implicit
                            in that rebuttal is that it doesn't matter to the consumer who pumps the
                            crude out of the ground, since OPEC fixes the price anyway. But it does
                            matter to the transnational oil companies whether or not they are the one
                            that gets to profit from pumping that crude. Thus the rift between the
                            major players in the European Union and Britain over Iraq. It's not
                            about religion, freedom or democracy, it's about who gets the profits.

                            Again, if BP wants to control that oil, then let the Brits die for it.
                            Or better yet, let all the oil companies hire their own mercenaries to
                            capture and control those resources. But, I don't blame them for their
                            ways. As a matter of good business, it's less expensive (more cost
                            effective) for oil companies to buy puppet governments and career
                            politicians who'll use their nations armies to secure the resources for
                            them. Even Adam Smith realized corporations have a bottom line instead
                            of a conscious.

                            As for the pipeline in Afghanistan, you're adding a more realistic reason
                            for America to be there--profits. I suppose if we disturbed the drug
                            lords who sponsor global terrorists the pipeline project would suffer
                            greatly. It's funny how money can rapidly eclipses the moral high
                            ground.

                            Bill

                            On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 03:07:32 -0000 "pusherprop" <pusherprop3@...>
                            writes:
                            >
                            >
                            > Let's don't forget our over-riding goal in the Middle East is to
                            > keep
                            > the oil flowing. A major disruption of the oil supply would send
                            > the
                            > world into an immediate financial crisis, and possibly something
                            > much
                            > worse. For example the world credit system could begin to unfold.
                            > This is something that no American President wants to happen on his
                            > watch. They'll all bend over backward to avoid something like
                            > this.
                            >
                            > So stop looking at the trees (WMDs, pipelines, Iraqi oil) and take
                            > a
                            > look at the forest. On balance have we done anything to damage the
                            > flow of Middle East oil, or conversely have we put strategies in
                            > place
                            > which strengthen the flow? Focus on Saudi Arabia as the key player
                            > in
                            > the region. The big picture isn't that hard to see.
                            >
                            > Chuck Seberg
                            >
                            >
                            > > In anycase, the pipeline in question (which actually goes to
                            > > Turkmenistan) was under
                            > > development under the Taliban with US cooperation, and would have
                            >
                            > > been completed by now
                            > > had we NOT invaded Afghanistan. Current plans for building it
                            > pick
                            > > up where that plan
                            > > left off. There was never any question of it getting built prior
                            > to
                            > > the war, and the war actually
                            > > delayed it by several years, so suggesting that the pipeline was a
                            >
                            > > reason for the war is just
                            > > ridiculous.
                            > >
                            > > This kind of ill-informed assumption is what I spend most of my
                            > time
                            > > battling. Your pipeline
                            > > story is sister to the popular liberal claim that we invaded Iraq
                            > for
                            > > oil - which makes no sense
                            > > at all as we could get all the oil we wanted from Saddam without a
                            >
                            > > war which has shut production
                            > > down almost completely. It's like the '14 Permanent Military
                            > Bases
                            > > in Iraq' claim which I debunked
                            > > earlier this week (see http://www.diablog.us) or the famous red
                            > > state/blue state IQ fantasy. People want to believe the worst, so
                            >
                            > > they latch on to some little tidbit of information, totally
                            > > misunderstand or
                            > > misinterpret or misrepresent it for their own purposes, spew it
                            > out
                            > > on the web and then people
                            > > start taking it as gospel.
                            > >
                            > > Dave
                            > > --
                            > >
                            > > -----
                            > >
                            > > Common Sense for Austin Politics
                            > > www.commonsenseaustin.com
                            > > Launching in the Spring of 2004
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • F Worley
                            Your comments below are exactly why, recreational drugs use should be legalized, regulated and yes, TAXED. Right now we have 2 dramatic problems, crime and
                            Message 13 of 27 , Dec 11, 2004
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                              Your comments below are exactly why, recreational drugs use should be legalized, regulated and yes, TAXED.  Right now we have 2 dramatic problems, crime and health.  By legalizing the crime (organized and most violent) would be eliminated as in the end of prohibition.  We would also save upwards of 100 billion dollars per year, by releasing everyone in prison currently held or on probation for drug related crimes.  (rough estimate).
                               
                              Then we are left with the health problem.  Which can be financed by the taxes raised by drug uesers. 
                               
                              Consider this:  While recreational drug use has remained mostly constant, both Alcohol and Tabacco use have been reduced dramatically in the last 20 years.
                               
                              I think we should take a stronger stance on the drug war.
                               
                              Frank

                              DGHarrison <DGHarrison@...> wrote:
                              ...what is meant by "flexible alternatives ... to combat the harmful aspects of drug use." I can't see any other outcome than costly taxpayer funded rehabilitation programs. So, it seems that drugs cost society whether they are being warred against (law enforcement) or made love to (drug rehab programs).

                              Doug Harrison
                              From the RLC website:
                               
                              "We recognize the harm that drug abuse causes, but also that the �drug war� has been ineffective and has led to terrible abuses of personal liberty. We favor flexible alternatives at the state and community level to combat the harmful aspects of drug use."


                            • westmiller@aol.com
                              Good analysis from Jeff Palmer of the RLC position on drugs. From: Jeff Palmer I think it s safe to say that most RLCers favor at least
                              Message 14 of 27 , Dec 11, 2004
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                                   Good analysis from Jeff Palmer of the RLC position on drugs.
                                From: "Jeff Palmer" <jap@...>
                                I think it's safe to say that most RLCers favor at least substantive
                                legalization but would prefer that we not allow ourselves to lead with our
                                chin on the issue to the detriment of our broader objectives...
                                    The Statement attempts to apply the Principles of the prefix to
                                current topics, without itemizing "platform positions", where
                                there can be an honest dispute of the facts and proper law. Note
                                that it applies to *all drugs*, not just hallucinogens or narcotics.
                                The position is just as applicable to alcohol, cigarettes, and
                                prescription medicines as it is to marijuana or cocaine.
                                "We recognize the harm that drug abuse causes..." is a "Ransberger Pivot".
                                    I haven't heard the term "Ransberger Pivot", but all of the
                                Positions start by granting legitimate social or political concerns,
                                then articulating a principled response.
                                ... Flexible alternatives could include legalization, decriminalization, availability by
                                prescription, elimination of unconstitutional means of enforcement, etc.
                                    ... as well as the "radical" position that would only support
                                laws protecting minors (who can't give informed consent), fraud
                                (adulteration or fake chemical products), and copyright.
                                Such inspecificity has the advantage of being inclusive of all of our
                                members' thinking and, thus, non-divisive to us an organization.  It also
                                has the advantage of clearly placing us on the side of the issue calling for
                                a change in our current drug policy while not placing us so "in your face"
                                of the prevailing social conservative opinion that we compromise our ability
                                to act as a force within the GOP.
                                    Exactly correct. It allows us to support "interim steps" that
                                conform with our principles, such as legalized medical marijuana,
                                the abolition of rigid minimum drug sentences, and FDA dictates
                                on "safe and effective" licensing.
                                    Since the purpose of this eGroup is to discuss RLC *Action*,
                                not debate issues, our chapters use the "World's Smallest Political
                                Quiz" from the Advocates (self-gov.org), which includes the issue
                                statement: "Repeal laws prohibiting adult possession and use of
                                drugs?"
                                    Now, as to doing some serious work, we have an agreement
                                with the Marijuana Policy Project [MPP] to exchange mailing
                                lists - from over a year ago - but haven't had anyone who had the
                                time and interest to compose a solicitation to their members.
                                    If anyone is willing to take on this outreach project, please let
                                me know ASAP.
                                 
                                Bill Westmiller
                                RLC Chairman
                              • Kevin Boyd
                                Bill, I m off from university until late-January. I can at least get started on soliciting the MPP mailing list. So count me in. Kevin Boyd Interim Coordinator
                                Message 15 of 27 , Dec 11, 2004
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                                  Bill,

                                  I'm off from university until late-January. I can at least get started
                                  on soliciting the MPP mailing list. So count me in.

                                  Kevin Boyd
                                  Interim Coordinator
                                  RLC-Louisiana

                                  --- In RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com, westmiller@a... wrote:
                                  > Good analysis from Jeff Palmer of the RLC position on drugs.
                                  > From: "Jeff Palmer" <jap@h...>
                                  > I think it's safe to say that most RLCers favor at least substantive
                                  > legalization but would prefer that we not allow ourselves to lead
                                  with our
                                  > chin on the issue to the detriment of our broader objectives...
                                  > The Statement attempts to apply the Principles of the prefix to
                                  > current topics, without itemizing "platform positions", where
                                  > there can be an honest dispute of the facts and proper law. Note
                                  > that it applies to *all drugs*, not just hallucinogens or narcotics.
                                  > The position is just as applicable to alcohol, cigarettes, and
                                  > prescription medicines as it is to marijuana or cocaine.
                                  > "We recognize the harm that drug abuse causes..." is a "Ransberger
                                  Pivot".
                                  > I haven't heard the term "Ransberger Pivot", but all of the
                                  > Positions start by granting legitimate social or political concerns,
                                  > then articulating a principled response.
                                  > ... Flexible alternatives could include legalization,
                                  decriminalization,
                                  > availability by
                                  > prescription, elimination of unconstitutional means of enforcement,
                                  etc.
                                  > ... as well as the "radical" position that would only support
                                  > laws protecting minors (who can't give informed consent), fraud
                                  > (adulteration or fake chemical products), and copyright.
                                  > Such inspecificity has the advantage of being inclusive of all of
                                  our
                                  > members' thinking and, thus, non-divisive to us an organization. It
                                  also
                                  > has the advantage of clearly placing us on the side of the issue
                                  calling for
                                  > a change in our current drug policy while not placing us so "in your
                                  face"
                                  > of the prevailing social conservative opinion that we compromise our
                                  ability
                                  > to act as a force within the GOP.
                                  > Exactly correct. It allows us to support "interim steps" that
                                  > conform with our principles, such as legalized medical marijuana,
                                  > the abolition of rigid minimum drug sentences, and FDA dictates
                                  > on "safe and effective" licensing.
                                  > Since the purpose of this eGroup is to discuss RLC *Action*,
                                  > not debate issues, our chapters use the "World's Smallest Political
                                  > Quiz" from the Advocates (self-gov.org), which includes the issue
                                  > statement: "Repeal laws prohibiting adult possession and use of
                                  > drugs?"
                                  > Now, as to doing some serious work, we have an agreement
                                  > with the Marijuana Policy Project [MPP] to exchange mailing
                                  > lists - from over a year ago - but haven't had anyone who had the
                                  > time and interest to compose a solicitation to their members.
                                  > If anyone is willing to take on this outreach project, please
                                  let
                                  > me know ASAP.
                                  >
                                  > Bill Westmiller
                                  > RLC Chairman
                                • westmiller@aol.com
                                  Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 04:01:20 -0000 From: Kevin Boyd _kevinboyd1984@yahoo.com_ (mailto:kevinboyd1984@yahoo.com) ... Excellent. The primary task is
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Dec 12, 2004
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                                       Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 04:01:20 -0000
                                       From: "Kevin Boyd" kevinboyd1984@...

                                    >
                                    I'm off from university until late-January. I can at least get started
                                    >
                                    on soliciting the MPP mailing list. So count me in.
                                     
                                        Excellent. The primary task is composing the solicitation letter
                                    and other materials that would go into the mailing. We have to get
                                    approval of those materials from MPP before we get the list for
                                    mailing. The package also needs to be reviewed by the RLC Board
                                    before submission to MPP. To start, draft a letter that you think
                                    would be appealing and motivate their members to join the RLC.
                                    Suggest an enclosure that would directly address the issue,
                                    perhaps from some prominent RLC advocate (I'm not sure that
                                    we can reach Gary Johnson, but Lyn Nofzinger is on the RLC
                                    Advisory Board and certainly well known).
                                     
                                    Bill
                                  • Barry Moore
                                    Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline? Answer: I think it was a high point of
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Dec 13, 2004
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                                      "Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?"
                                       
                                      Answer: I think it was a high point of consideration.

                                      F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
                                      The original point was that we were only liberating oil rich nations, a point I took issue with.  I think the discussion is now a bit off topic, so you can respond to me personally at worley_f2003@... if you wish. 
                                       
                                      Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?
                                       
                                      Frank

                                      Barry Moore <b_moore@...> wrote:
                                      Frank,
                                       
                                      "We brought democracy (already) to Afghanistan, no oil there."
                                       
                                      Nope, just building a pipeline across Afghanistan to Khurzikstan where there IS oil.
                                       
                                      --- Barry
                                       
                                      "Trade with all, entangling alliances with none" - Thomas Jefferson, 1801
                                       
                                      "�It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world.�
                                      - George Washington, 1797

                                      F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
                                       

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                                    • bill Jambura
                                      Binary arguments work well in spin machines. But I don t see it as an either or , but an and too . Please go back a few e-mails in this series to read my
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Dec 13, 2004
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                                        Binary arguments work well in spin machines.  But I don't see it as an "either or", but an "and too".  Please go back a few e-mails in this series to read my e-mail of 10 Dec 04 reprinted below: 
                                         
                                        "Well said Barry! 
                                         
                                        Also, we went into Afghanistan to get the Taliban and Bin Ladin who sponsored attacks on America--no doubts there.  We have every right to be there.  Some people still like to blur Afghanistan with what we're doing in Iraq. 
                                         
                                        As a foot note, we didn't and won't  touch the poppy fields in Afghanistan--never mind our War on Drugs.  Yet, we're told that illegal drug traffic is a major funding source for terrorists.  So who really controls Afghanistan, the new president or the drug lords who sponsor the terrorists?  A question that extends to many of  the "democracies" in South and Central America.  Maybe it's time to invent a new term:  DINO--Democracy In Name Only."
                                         
                                        (In real time, I'm pleased to hear that we are now going to go after the opium lords in Afghanistan.  The sooner we send them to Allah, the better for all!  I just wish we were more aggressive in South and Central America, instead of pursuing the end users in our own country at the peril of everyone's civil rights.)
                                         
                                        Bill Jambura
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                        On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:21:46 -0800 (PST) Barry Moore <b_moore@...> writes:
                                        "Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?"
                                         
                                        Answer: I think it was a high point of consideration.

                                        F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
                                        The original point was that we were only liberating oil rich nations, a point I took issue with.  I think the discussion is now a bit off topic, so you can respond to me personally at worley_f2003@... if you wish. 
                                         
                                        Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?
                                         
                                        Frank

                                        Barry Moore <b_moore@...> wrote:
                                        Frank,
                                         
                                        "We brought democracy (already) to Afghanistan, no oil there."
                                         
                                        Nope, just building a pipeline across Afghanistan to Khurzikstan where there IS oil.
                                         
                                        --- Barry
                                         
                                        "Trade with all, entangling alliances with none" - Thomas Jefferson, 1801
                                         
                                        "It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world.
                                        - George Washington, 1797

                                        F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
                                         

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                                      • Chuck Seberg
                                        I see lots of binary logic on this list. But you must know the government figures everything six ways from Sunday before they make a move. If the invasion of
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Dec 13, 2004
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                                          I see lots of binary logic on this list.  But you must know the government figures everything six ways from Sunday before they make a move.  If the invasion of Afganistan accomplished a major goal (neutralizing the terrorists), and had half a dozen beneficial side-effects, so much the better.  Nothing surprising in that.
                                           
                                          I have a book recommendation for you guys.  It's "Taliban" by Ahmed Rashid.  He's a Pakistani journalist who got inside the Taliban, and does a good job of laying out Afghanistan before the US invasion.  It was far from a simple situation then, so I doubt our involvement is anything but simple now.  Not really something which lends itself to simple analysis.
                                           
                                          BTW, what does any of this have to do with RLC-Action?
                                           
                                          Chuck Seberg
                                           
                                           

                                          Binary arguments work well in spin machines.  But I don't see it as an "either or", but an "and too".  Please go back a few e-mails in this series to read my e-mail of 10 Dec 04 reprinted below: 
                                           
                                          "Well said Barry! 
                                           
                                          Also, we went into Afghanistan to get the Taliban and Bin Ladin who sponsored attacks on America--no doubts there.  We have every right to be there.  Some people still like to blur Afghanistan with what we're doing in Iraq. 
                                           
                                          As a foot note, we didn't and won't  touch the poppy fields in Afghanistan--never mind our War on Drugs.  Yet, we're told that illegal drug traffic is a major funding source for terrorists.  So who really controls Afghanistan, the new president or the drug lords who sponsor the terrorists?  A question that extends to many of  the "democracies" in South and Central America.  Maybe it's time to invent a new term:  DINO--Democracy In Name Only."
                                           
                                          (In real time, I'm pleased to hear that we are now going to go after the opium lords in Afghanistan.  The sooner we send them to Allah, the better for all!  I just wish we were more aggressive in South and Central America, instead of pursuing the end users in our own country at the peril of everyone's civil rights.)
                                           
                                          Bill Jambura
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                          On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:21:46 -0800 (PST) Barry Moore <b_moore@...> writes:
                                          "Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?"
                                           
                                          Answer: I think it was a high point of consideration.

                                          F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
                                          The original point was that we were only liberating oil rich nations, a point I took issue with.  I think the discussion is now a bit off topic, so you can respond to me personally at worley_f2003@... if you wish. 
                                           
                                          Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?
                                           
                                          Frank

                                          Barry Moore <b_moore@...> wrote:
                                          Frank,
                                           
                                          "We brought democracy (already) to Afghanistan, no oil there."
                                           
                                          Nope, just building a pipeline across Afghanistan to Khurzikstan where there IS oil.
                                           
                                          --- Barry
                                           
                                          "Trade with all, entangling alliances with none" - Thomas Jefferson, 1801
                                           
                                          "It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world.
                                          - George Washington, 1797

                                          F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
                                           

                                          __________________________________________________
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                                          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                                        • Guy McLendon
                                          Why only send in Agent 007 with a letter of marque when you can instead send in the Marines, and have the pipeline as a bonus? ... From: Barry Moore To:
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Dec 13, 2004
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                                            Why only send in Agent 007 with a letter of marque when you can instead send in the Marines, and have the pipeline as a bonus?
                                             
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 8:21 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Our Constitution

                                            "Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?"
                                             
                                            Answer: I think it was a high point of consideration.

                                          • F Worley
                                            I think being cynical (forgive my early morning spelling) is probably a good thing. But there is a limit. We harm our own credibility, when we allege
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Dec 14, 2004
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                                              I think being  cynical  (forgive my early morning spelling) is probably a good thing.  But there is a limit.  We harm our own credibility, when we allege things as silly as this.  It really is irresponsible to say or even allege that the US invaded afghanistan for the sole purpose of getting a pipeline or with that in mind or as a primary benifit. 
                                               
                                              The Taliban were given an opportunity to hand over Bin Laden and could have done so and kept their control over the country, they refused. 
                                               
                                              Our ability to be effective in actions we support or take, is directly affected by how people perceive us.  If we make wild accusations, with lilttle or not basis in fact or relevence to the issues of the day, we cannot hope to have an impact.
                                               
                                              You may believe these accusations are based in fact, but are they really relevent to what is going on in our nation? 
                                               
                                              More importantly, it implies that, were we in charge, we would not have invaded Afghanistan in order to avoid the perception that we might be trading blood for oil.
                                               
                                              And who would vote for someone afraid to defend the nation because it my be misinterpreted as a drive for oil?
                                               
                                              Frank

                                              Guy McLendon <guy@...> wrote:
                                              Why only send in Agent 007 with a letter of marque when you can instead send in the Marines, and have the pipeline as a bonus?
                                               
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 8:21 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Our Constitution

                                              "Are you suggesting with this post that we invaded Afghanistan, not to get the authors of 9/11 but to build a pipeline?"
                                               
                                              Answer: I think it was a high point of consideration.


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