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Re: [RLC-Action] Roll Call on Intelligence Bill

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  • F Worley
    From what I ve seen in the media about this bill, it is presented as an absolute no brainer that anyone would be a fool not to vote for. We have to do a
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 9, 2004
      From what I've seen in the media about this bill, it is presented as an absolute no brainer that anyone would be a fool not to vote for.  We have to do a better job of representing our views and vision in the media.
       
      No, I don't have a solution, but it might be worth a focus group discussion some time, made up of our members etc.
       
      Frank

      westmiller@... wrote:
          Final votes yesterday and tonight on the "Intelligence" Bill. The
      opponent list looks like an RLC "Hall of Fame" ... even with the 8
      Democrats and several Republicans that thought it wasn't bad -
      or draconian - enough!
       
      Bill
      --------------------------------------
      S 2845 Conference Report
      House  Roll Call # 544: 336 Yes / 75 No
      Senate Roll Call # 216:   89 Yes /  2 No

      ---- HOUSE NOES 75 ---
      Aderholt
      Bachus
      Barrett (SC)
      Bartlett (MD)
      Barton (TX)
      Bishop (UT)
      Blackburn
      Bono
      Boozman
      Brown-Waite, Ginny
      Burgess
      Calvert
      Camp
      Chabot
      Coble
      Collins
      Crane
      Cubin
      Culberson
      Davis, Jo Ann
      Deal (GA)
      Duncan
      Everett
      Feeney
      Flake
      Forbes
      Gallegly
      Gingrey
      Goode
      Gordon [D]
      Green (WI)
      Gutknecht
      Hayworth
      Hefley
      Hostettler
      Issa
      Istook
      Jenkins
      Johnson, Sam
      Jones (NC)
      King (IA)
      Kingston
      Kucinich [D]
      LaHood
      Lewis (KY)
      Lucas (OK)
      Manzullo
      McDermott [D]
      McInnis
      Miller, Gary
      Mollohan [D]
      Murtha [D]
      Myrick
      Neugebauer
      Oberstar
      Obey
      Ose
      Otter
      Paul
      Pitts
      Pombo
      Radanovich
      Rehberg
      Rohrabacher
      Royce
      Sabo [D]
      Sensenbrenner
      Simpson
      Smith (TX)
      Sullivan
      Sweeney
      Tancredo
      Taylor (NC)
      Wamp
      Weldon (FL)

    • Dave Nalle
      ... That s not what I m picking up from the media at all. I m getting the clear message that it s a compromise bill that no one is entirely happy with but
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 9, 2004
        >From what I've seen in the media about this bill, it is presented as
        >an absolute no brainer that anyone would be a fool not to vote for.
        >We have to do a better job of representing our views and vision in
        >the media.

        That's not what I'm picking up from the media at all. I'm getting
        the clear message that it's a compromise bill that no one is entirely
        happy with but which people are going along with reluctantly because
        it's better than nothing and at least satisfies some of the basic
        needs identified by the 9-11 commission.

        Personally, from what I can tell it's fairly meaningless. On the one
        hand it creates the appearance of centralizing administration of
        intelligence, while at the same time merely creating another level of
        ineffective bureaucracy. While I object top any form of government
        growth, it's also usually the case that the more complex and
        redundant the government becomes the less capable it is of actually
        doing anything to oppress us effectively.

        Dave
        --

        -----

        Common Sense for Austin Politics
        www.commonsenseaustin.com
      • westmiller@aol.com
        From: Dave Nalle dave@nalle.net ... Which leaves: oppressing us INeffectively: i.e. on the basis of random bureaucratic whim. The problem (if it s a problem)
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 9, 2004
          From: Dave Nalle dave@...
          > While I object top any form of government growth,
          > it's also usually the case that the more complex and
          > redundant the government becomes the less capable
          > it is of actually doing anything to oppress us effectively.
              Which leaves: oppressing us INeffectively: i.e. on the
          basis of random bureaucratic whim.
              The problem (if it's a problem) was failure to share
          intelligence among agencies. The obvious solution was
          to eliminate the previous laws that forbade sharing.
              Aside from a new bureaucracy, this bill:
              1. Extended executive discretion to detain and keep
          secret any charges against "lone wolves", rather than
          those associated with "terrorist organizations";
              2. Nationalized the terms and documents for state
          driver's licenses;
              3. Allowed unrestricted cross-referencing of any and
          all state and federal databases for "intelligence" purposes;
              4. Elminated the sunset provisions of the PATRIOT act;
              5. Granted full budget discretion to a Director who is
          not even a member of the cabinet;
              etc., etc.
           
              But, you're right. It was played up as "necessary"
          upgrades of government discretion and snooping, mainly
          promoted by a small group of "9/11 survivors" with a very
          bad agenda.
              However, it wasn't ignored. The RLC joined many other
          organizations (30) in opposing the most onerous provisions
          of the bill. The legislators opposed made their objections
          clear. The fear mongers and "do anything" advocates won.
           
          Bill   
        • Barry Moore
          ...and, since it s probably got some conflicting sections, it will probably be ruled by department regulation in lieu of Congressional mandate. Result? More
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 9, 2004
            ...and, since it's probably got some conflicting sections, it will probably be "ruled"
            by department regulation in lieu of Congressional mandate. Result? More lawmaking
            by the Executive branch.

            westmiller@... wrote:
            From: Dave Nalle dave@...
            > While I object top any form of government growth,
            > it's also usually the case that the more complex and
            > redundant the government becomes the less capable
            > it is of actually doing anything to oppress us effectively.
                Which leaves: oppressing us INeffectively: i.e. on the
            basis of random bureaucratic whim.
                The problem (if it's a problem) was failure to share
            intelligence among agencies. The obvious solution was
            to eliminate the previous laws that forbade sharing.
                Aside from a new bureaucracy, this bill:
                1. Extended executive discretion to detain and keep
            secret any charges against "lone wolves", rather than
            those associated with "terrorist organizations";
                2. Nationalized the terms and documents for state
            driver's licenses;
                3. Allowed unrestricted cross-referencing of any and
            all state and federal databases for "intelligence" purposes;
                4. Elminated the sunset provisions of the PATRIOT act;
                5. Granted full budget discretion to a Director who is
            not even a member of the cabinet;
                etc., etc.
             
                But, you're right. It was played up as "necessary"
            upgrades of government discretion and snooping, mainly
            promoted by a small group of "9/11 survivors" with a very
            bad agenda.
                However, it wasn't ignored. The RLC joined many other
            organizations (30) in opposing the most onerous provisions
            of the bill. The legislators opposed made their objections
            clear. The fear mongers and "do anything" advocates won.
             
            Bill   


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          • Kevin Boyd
            May God bless each and every one of these heroes. ... The
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 9, 2004
              May God bless each and every one of these heroes.

              --- In RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com, westmiller@a... wrote:
              > Final votes yesterday and tonight on the "Intelligence" Bill.
              The
              > opponent list looks like an RLC "Hall of Fame" ... even with the 8
              > Democrats and several Republicans that thought it wasn't bad -
              > or draconian - enough!
              >
              > Bill
              > --------------------------------------
              > S 2845 Conference Report
              > House Roll Call # 544: 336 Yes / 75 No
              > Senate Roll Call # 216: 89 Yes / 2 No
              >
              > ---- HOUSE NOES 75 ---
              > Aderholt
              > Bachus
              > Barrett (SC)
              > Bartlett (MD)
              > Barton (TX)
              > Bishop (UT)
              > Blackburn
              > Bono
              > Boozman
              > Brown-Waite, Ginny
              > Burgess
              > Calvert
              > Camp
              > Chabot
              > Coble
              > Collins
              > Crane
              > Cubin
              > Culberson
              > Davis, Jo Ann
              > Deal (GA)
              > Duncan
              > Everett
              > Feeney
              > Flake
              > Forbes
              > Gallegly
              > Gingrey
              > Goode
              > Gordon [D]
              > Green (WI)
              > Gutknecht
              > Hayworth
              > Hefley
              > Hostettler
              > Issa
              > Istook
              > Jenkins
              > Johnson, Sam
              > Jones (NC)
              > King (IA)
              > Kingston
              > Kucinich [D]
              > LaHood
              > Lewis (KY)
              > Lucas (OK)
              > Manzullo
              > McDermott [D]
              > McInnis
              > Miller, Gary
              > Mollohan [D]
              > Murtha [D]
              > Myrick
              > Neugebauer
              > Oberstar
              > Obey
              > Ose
              > Otter
              > Paul
              > Pitts
              > Pombo
              > Radanovich
              > Rehberg
              > Rohrabacher
              > Royce
              > Sabo [D]
              > Sensenbrenner
              > Simpson
              > Smith (TX)
              > Sullivan
              > Sweeney
              > Tancredo
              > Taylor (NC)
              > Wamp
              > Weldon (FL)
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