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DNA testing of Rhode Island Greenes - Vikings and Anglo-Saxons

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  • Bill Wright
    I have spent several hours today reviewing and comparing the results of DNA tests on Greenes with ties to Rhode Island. We now have results from men claiming
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 9, 2009
      I have spent several hours today reviewing and comparing the results
      of DNA tests on Greenes with ties to Rhode Island. We now have results
      from men claiming descent from all three of the John Greenes who
      settled in Rhode Island in the mid-1600s. I can't vouch for the
      accuracy of the ancestor charts. But at least we have several who have
      traced their lines back to RI.

      The three websites that I used were:
      http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Green/default.aspx?section=yresults
      http://www.ysearch.org
      http://www.smgf.org

      This is a long email, so I will start with the bottom line. The DNA
      results show that the three John Greenes who came to Rhode Island in
      the mid-1600s do not share a recent common ancestor. These three John
      Greenes were:
      John Greene of Warwick, surgeon;
      John Greene of Quidnesset;
      and the John Greene of East Greenwich and Coventry who married Abigail.

      These three men were not related.

      A fourth John Greene, called John Greene of Newport who married Mary
      Jefferay, and as suggested by the East Greenwich records is probably
      John Greene, Jr., son of John Greene of Quidnesset.

      We only have one claimed descendant of John Greene of Warwick, surgeon
      that has been tested. This one has been around for a long time. On his
      ysearch page this man claims descent from David Greene, b 1677, of
      Portsmouth, RI. This David Greene is a descendant of John of Warwick,
      and I have not seen any challenges to the accuracy of this descent. I
      don't know how the man tested descends from David Greene. He is
      identified as Kit #27438 on the Greene project page and User ID Q2ZNS
      on ysearch.

      This descendant of John of Warwick belongs to Haplogroup I1. If you
      look up this Haplogroup you will find some technical language that
      loses me. I simplify it and say that this group are descended from the
      Vikings.

      On smgf, I found two men with closely matched DNA. One of them claimed
      descent from Benjamin Greene and Mercy Rogers. Benjamin was a son of
      John Greene and Mary Aylsworth, a grandson of John Greene of
      Quidnesset. Unfortunately, the pedigree on sgmf was linked to a tree
      on familysearch.org. This tree scrambled and shuffled Benjamin
      Greene's father among all three of the immigrant Johns, listing 4
      different mothers and 4 different fathers involving 5 possible
      parental families and assigning an inaccurate date of birth. But if
      the pedigree is accurate back to Benjamin and Mercy, then we have a
      fix on the DNA for John of Q.

      The second man on smgf has a pedigree with the earliest ancestor said
      to be an Esaac Green with wife Elizabeth of Westerly. They had a son
      Henry b in Westerly, ca 1682, who married Rachael Martin. I have no
      idea who these people were. But the descendant's DNA matches 33 out of
      34 markers with the descendant of John and Mary (Aylsworth) Greene. So
      these two men share a recent common ancestor. Esaac could be a son of
      John of Q, or a nephew. Esaac could also be a corrupted spelling.

      Placing Esaac and his son Henry in Westerly is closer to Kingstown
      where John of Q spent time than to Warwick or East Greenwich and Coventry.

      A third pair of DNA matches is in Group 02AA on the Green project
      website. The Haplogroup is R1b1b2. I call this group the Anglo-Saxons.

      Kit #125954 on the Green project site is User ID 9RTMQ on ysearch.
      Ysearch gives a pedigree back to John Robert Greene and Abigail D.
      Wardwell. There is no basis for the Robert middle name and the parents
      are given as John Greene Sr. and Joan West (Beggarly). Based on the
      date and place of death for John Greene Sr. this appears to be John
      Greene of Q. His wife's given name "Joan" is correct, but the
      surname(s) are confused with that of a wife on John Greene of Warwick.
      But if the pedigree is correct back to John and Abigail, we have a DNA
      for the John Greene who married Abigail and had children born in East
      Greenwich. But the EG records do not prove that the John Greene who
      married Abigail was the son of John of Q. In fact, the EG records
      probably indicate that there were two John Greenes in EG in the mid to
      late 1680s.

      The second DNA test in Group 02AA claims descent from Alexander de
      Greene de Boketon. This is based on the erroneous claim of LaMance
      that John Greene of Quidnesset and John Greene of Warwick were
      related. There is no evidence that John Greene of Q was descended from
      Alexander de Greene de Boketon. But the two men in this group match 24
      out of 25 markers and do share a recent common ancestor.

      So if the pedigrees back from these five men tested are correct, we
      have DNA evidence that the three John Greenes who were in Rhode Island
      in the mid-1600s did not share a recent common ancestor.

      The Greene project website and ysearch show test results for other men
      claiming descent from the John Greene of East Greenwich and Coventry
      who married Abigail. The DNA test results are significantly different
      from those discussed above.

      The largest group of men claiming descent from John and Abigail are in
      Group O2D on the Greene project site. This is a group of 5 men. One
      (Kit# 125613) claims descent from John Greene, Rhode Island, 1638.
      There are five men with test results in this group and all share a
      recent common ancestor.

      The earliest test in Group 02D is Kit 2162. I believe this is ysearch
      User ID w28gt. This man has tried for years to trace his ancestry back
      to RI and believes he descends from John of Q through John's son
      Benjamin. His proven line goes back to George Green (1739-1839) of
      Dutchess Co, NY. His DNA matches 24 out of 34 markers with the man
      claiming descent from John and Mary (Aylesworth) Greene. So the two
      men tested by smgf and the men in Group 02D can't both be descendants
      of John Greene of Q.

      Group 99A on the Green project site claims descent from John and
      Abigail and has a pedigree back to them. Not all the generations in
      this pedigree have been proved. He has also discovered that his DNA
      matches that of some Streeter descendants. His DNA does not match that
      of any other Greenes.

      With the exception of the descendant of John Greene of Warwick
      mentioned above, all these men tested in Haplogroup R1b1b2... They are
      of Anglo-Saxon descent while John of Warwick is of Viking descent.

      We need more men descended from the Greenes of RI to be tested. First
      of all, we need men with a proven descent from each of the three Johns
      to be tested to validate or disprove the claims of descent of men
      already tested. Other men who think they descend from one of the three
      John Greenes in RI can be tested and can determine if they share a
      recent common ancestor with one or more of the men who have already
      been tested.

      Bill Wright
    • Dee Kermode
      Bill, I am descended from James Greene of Warwick, RI, born in Warwick, Kent England, 21 Jun 1626. He died in Potowomut, RI, 27 Apr 1698. He was married to
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 10, 2009
        Bill,

        I am descended from James Greene of Warwick, RI, born in Warwick, Kent
        England, 21 Jun 1626. He died in Potowomut, RI, 27 Apr 1698. He was married
        to Elizabeth Anthony, 03 Aug, 1665 in Warwick, Kent, RI.

        Is there any connection to these branches you mentioned? Unfortunately, my
        brother is dead.



        Dee Kermode

        Palmetto FL







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gloria Silverman
        James was a son of John the Surgeon Greene. ... From: Dee Kermode To: RI_Ancestors@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:57 AM Subject:
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 10, 2009
          James was a son of John the Surgeon Greene.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Dee Kermode
          To: RI_Ancestors@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:57 AM
          Subject: [RI_Ancestors] Re:DNA testing of Rhode Island Greenes - Vikings and Anglo-Saxons


          Bill,

          I am descended from James Greene of Warwick, RI, born in Warwick, Kent
          England, 21 Jun 1626. He died in Potowomut, RI, 27 Apr 1698. He was married
          to Elizabeth Anthony, 03 Aug, 1665 in Warwick, Kent, RI.

          Is there any connection to these branches you mentioned? Unfortunately, my
          brother is dead.

          Dee Kermode

          Palmetto FL

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Charlie Carpenter
          James was also married first c1658 to Deliverance Potter 1637-c1664. James is buried in Warwick Historical Cemetery # 66 along with his father. Charlie C ...
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 10, 2009
            James was also married first c1658 to Deliverance Potter 1637-c1664. James is buried in Warwick Historical Cemetery # 66 along with his father.

            Charlie C
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Gloria Silverman
            To: RI_Ancestors@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 12:39 PM
            Subject: Re: [RI_Ancestors] Re:DNA testing of Rhode Island Greenes - Vikings and Anglo-Saxons


            James was a son of John the Surgeon Greene.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Dee Kermode
            To: RI_Ancestors@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:57 AM
            Subject: [RI_Ancestors] Re:DNA testing of Rhode Island Greenes - Vikings and Anglo-Saxons

            Bill,

            I am descended from James Greene of Warwick, RI, born in Warwick, Kent
            England, 21 Jun 1626. He died in Potowomut, RI, 27 Apr 1698. He was married
            to Elizabeth Anthony, 03 Aug, 1665 in Warwick, Kent, RI.

            Is there any connection to these branches you mentioned? Unfortunately, my
            brother is dead.

            Dee Kermode

            Palmetto FL

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bill Wright
            Dee, As Gloria and Charlie replied James is the son of John Greene of Warwick, surgeon. We have results of one test of a man descended from this John. That is
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 11, 2009
              Dee,

              As Gloria and Charlie replied James is the son of John Greene of
              Warwick, surgeon. We have results of one test of a man descended from
              this John. That is Kit #27438 on the Greene project page and User ID
              Q2ZNS on ysearch. This man claims descent from James-2's son David.

              I received an email from another man who allegedly descends from John of
              Warwick. He plans to be tested. His descent is anecdotal, based on an
              obituary/memoir. The significance of the memoir is the author, noted
              historian Samuel Eliot Morison. In Morison's 1967 biography of Commodore
              Matthew Calbraith Perry (brother of Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry), he
              wrote, "The utmost efforts of genealogists employed by his more affluent
              descendants have failed to discover who Edward's parents were or from
              what part of England he came, although tradition states that he was from
              Devonshire." I quote this to show that Morison, although not a
              genealogist, did look for valid documentation when he made ancestral
              statements.

              The posted pedigrees of the two men tested by smgf are disappointing. I
              took a further look at each of them and exchanged emails with one lady
              who had uploaded the early generations of the pedigree of one of the men
              to familysearch.org. The lady said that her deceased grandmother had
              done the research. She offered no documentation for the information
              uploaded. This was the pedigree descending from Esaac and Elizabeth
              Greene of Westerly who were contemporaries of the children of John
              Greene of Quidensset. Who was Esaac Greene and where is he found in the
              records?

              I noted that one of the supposed generations of descendants of Esaac was
              Thomas Greene who married Sarah. This Thomas is a close match to the
              Thomas Greene of West Greenwich and Charlestown who descended from John
              Greene of Quidnesset through Benjamin-2, John-3, Thomas-4. The
              familyseasrch.org pedigree shows the Thomas and Sarah there with a son
              Edward in Stonington, CT, and the Thomas-4 descended from John of Q is
              not known to have had a son Edward.

              The pedigree of smgf.org of the man with matching DNA who claimed
              descent from John Greene of Quidnesset also has a problem, which I
              consider fatal to it accuracy, unless credible documentation is
              provided. The line of descent is: John-1 of Q; Benjamin-2; John-3:
              Benjamin-4; Caleb-5; Thomas-6; ... The sixth generation Thomas was born
              when Caleb was 17 and his wife whom he supposedly had not married yet,
              was estimated to be 14.

              Reading the smgf.org website, smgf takes the required pedigrees
              submitted by the men being tested and sometimes adds on to them. I
              suspect that this has happened in this case. Some of the referenced
              family group sheets on this supposed line posted on familysearch.org do
              not show the father's parents. Could smgf have practiced "pin the tail
              on the pedigree" and attached some possible families found on
              familysearch.org to build an extended pedigree? I don't know. I hope
              not. But I have sent an email asking the question as well as for smgf to
              send my email to the person submitting the test, in hopes of getting
              valid documentation.

              The Rb1... Haplogroup could include French-Norman ancestry as well as
              Anglo-Saxon. Still the I1 Haplogroup for the descendant of John Greene
              of Warwick shows a distinctly different origin for this line than for
              the other ten men tested.

              Bill Wright
            • fred.greenmi
              Greetings to all, New member to this group. Have been researching my Green(e) family for some time and have conversed a few times with the good Mr. Bill
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 8, 2009
                Greetings to all,

                New member to this group. Have been researching my Green(e) family for some time and have conversed a few times with the good Mr. Bill Wright.

                Just ordered my DNA test kit and can document my lineage to John Greene of Quidnesset at least to his 3rd-Great-Grandson John Greene (bn. abt. 1782 prob. in RI). Can't seem to find documentation between this John Greene and his father Jonathan Greene who was reportedly a Patriot of the Revolution. Thus far the book by Frank L. Greene has proved to be accurate for my line but this connection I have yet to confirm.

                Oddly it seems that Patriot Jonathan Greene (bn. 30 Apr 1749 in RI; dd. 30 Jun 1807) is buried in a family plot near Berlin, NY with a headstone showing his name as Jonathan "Benjamin" Greene. The town historian has guessed that this was his middle name or he simply took on his father's name to differentiate himself from several other "John Green's" in the town.

                Looking forward to many good conversations with this very passionate and interesting group.


                Frederick Green
                Central Virginia
              • Dee Kermode
                Frederick, I have that my John Green s granddaughter, Phebe Greene, was born in Berlin, NY in 1770, though her father was Joseph. Just noting the same town
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 9, 2009
                  Frederick,

                  I have that my John Green's granddaughter, Phebe Greene, was born in Berlin,
                  NY in 1770, though her father was Joseph. Just noting the same town but I
                  don't have a Jonathan in my database. However, I do have a John B Greene, b
                  1761 in CT who married Mary Hill. Just trying to fill the gaps.

                  Dee Kermode

                  dkermode@...



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Bill Wright
                  Dee and Frederick, Frederick, thank you for stepping forward for the DNA test. Are you being tested through the Greene Surname DNA Project and Family Tree DNA?
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 10, 2009
                    Dee and Frederick,

                    Frederick, thank you for stepping forward for the DNA test. Are you
                    being tested through the Greene Surname DNA Project and Family Tree DNA?
                    What is your kit number? Your results will be a help too all of us
                    researching descendants of John Greene of Quidnesset and the other two
                    Johns in RI.

                    Dee, there were two John Greenes who married a Mary Hill. The one you
                    reference who married John B. Greene who was b in 1761, is probably a
                    descendant of John of Q. He is mentioned on page 432 of Frank L. Greene,
                    "Descendants of Joseph Greene of Westerly." Frank L. Greene
                    hypotheticated that this John Greene whom he said was born in 1760 or
                    1761 in RI, was the son of one of the sons of my ancestor, John-3 Greene
                    who married Mary Aylesworth. I had difficulty with this hypothesis for a
                    long time since it looked like I had identified all the possible
                    grandchildren of John-3. Then I took another look at the children named
                    in his will. He mentions two unnamed deceased sons both of whom had
                    heirs. Principal Frank Greene could well be correct with his hypothesis.
                    This is another broken connection that begs for DNA testing to prove a
                    link.

                    Dee, I can't find your John, Joseph, Phebe line. Could you provide some
                    more details on them and their ancestry? Do you have some unanswered
                    questions on your Greens?

                    Bill Wright
                  • Frederick Green
                    Bill, I am being tested through the Greene Surname DNA Project. Kit #168649 should be arriving soon - Not sure how long the results will take, especially with
                    Message 9 of 9 , Dec 10, 2009
                      Bill,

                      I am being tested through the Greene Surname DNA Project. Kit #168649
                      should be arriving soon - Not sure how long the results will take,
                      especially with the approaching holidays. Too bad that Frank L. Greene did
                      not annotate his book with sources but I am happy that he took the time and
                      effort to compile what seems to be an incredibely accurate family history.

                      Fred Green

                      On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Bill Wright <wmewrght@...> wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > Dee and Frederick,
                      >
                      > Frederick, thank you for stepping forward for the DNA test. Are you
                      > being tested through the Greene Surname DNA Project and Family Tree DNA?
                      > What is your kit number? Your results will be a help too all of us
                      > researching descendants of John Greene of Quidnesset and the other two
                      > Johns in RI.
                      >
                      > Dee, there were two John Greenes who married a Mary Hill. The one you
                      > reference who married John B. Greene who was b in 1761, is probably a
                      > descendant of John of Q. He is mentioned on page 432 of Frank L. Greene,
                      > "Descendants of Joseph Greene of Westerly." Frank L. Greene
                      > hypotheticated that this John Greene whom he said was born in 1760 or
                      > 1761 in RI, was the son of one of the sons of my ancestor, John-3 Greene
                      > who married Mary Aylesworth. I had difficulty with this hypothesis for a
                      > long time since it looked like I had identified all the possible
                      > grandchildren of John-3. Then I took another look at the children named
                      > in his will. He mentions two unnamed deceased sons both of whom had
                      > heirs. Principal Frank Greene could well be correct with his hypothesis.
                      > This is another broken connection that begs for DNA testing to prove a
                      > link.
                      >
                      > Dee, I can't find your John, Joseph, Phebe line. Could you provide some
                      > more details on them and their ancestry? Do you have some unanswered
                      > questions on your Greens?
                      >
                      > Bill Wright
                      >
                      >



                      --
                      Frederick Green
                      - A pair of facts beats a full house of myths every time.


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