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RE: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Z159 - New Old Idea

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  • Brian P. Swann
    I suspect it is a catchy title designed to sell books. And as in my previous email - I will wait for the People of the British Isles to put all this on a more
    Message 1 of 73 , May 1, 2012
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      I suspect it is a catchy title designed to sell books.

       

      And as in my previous email – I will wait for the People of the British Isles to put all this on a more sound scientific footage for the general population.

       

      But almost certainly they will not drill down deeply enough into Y-DNA to satisfy our needs.  That’s where we may have a role to play.

       

      I don’t know this paper or book immediately – so give us a clue who wrote it and when.

       

      Brian

       

      From: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mikhail.rogov
      Sent: 30 April 2012 18:55
      To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Z159 - New Old Idea

       

       Dear Gail and Brian

      If you pay great attention to all these sources, what is your opinion about rather famous book about R1b Jews and Scitts:

      When Scotland Was Jewish: DNA Evidence, Archeology, Analysis of Migrations, and Public and Family Records Show Twelfth Century Semitic Roots

      ?

      --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, "Brian P. Swann" <bps@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Gail
      >
      >
      >
      > I don't think autosomal DNA testing will ever go back this far!
      >
      >
      >
      > Although I was just re-watching The Gene Code the other day - and Prof.
      > Peter Donnelly at Oxford had some interesting comments in it about
      > recombination hotspots on the DNA - which said to me "I must google that and
      > find out more".
      >
      >
      >
      > And the problems of identification from which ancestor you received any DNA
      > would be legion.
      >
      >
      >
      > But as a way to learn about medieval genealogy - cannot be bettered to have
      > to try and decipher what it all means for your own family.
      >
      >
      >
      > I do presume all your descents are through female lines at some point.
      >
      >
      >
      > The other thing all this makes a lot more fun - is driving across to France
      > and seeing all the places where many of families took their surnames from.
      > It also improves the quality of the debate about "my ancestors came across
      > with William the Conqueror" - with a few exceptions, they almost certainly
      > did not, based on published evidence and reviewed by Anthony J. Camp in a
      > booklet produced by the Society of Genealogists.
      >
      >
      >
      > Brian
      >
      >
      >
      > From: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com]
      > On Behalf Of Gail Riddell
      > Sent: 28 April 2012 23:19
      > To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Z159 - New Old Idea
      >
      >
      >
      > You are correct - this 2nd edition does not have the additional appendix,
      > but I could not (at the time) locate the later volume.
      >
      >
      >
      > The 'Baronetage of England...' by Rev William Betham is another worthy.
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks for the web site for corrections (now copied and placed with CD).
      >
      >
      >
      > Before I close, although a lot of my work from some years ago has still to
      > be properly verified and referenced, I appear to come down through Gunnor
      > BIGOT, dau of Roger (1060-1107) and Alice de TONI/TODENI (2nd wife),
      > eventually arriving in the NISBET family and thence into the RIDDELLs But
      > in addition, also through Roger's sister Maud-Mary wife of William de
      > AUBIGNY which , surprise, surprise, also ends up in the NISBET family many
      > centuries later. So many blue-blood women in my background. So many
      > surnames. So much need for extended knowledge of atDNA :-)
      >
      >
      >
      > Gail
      >
      >
      >
      > On 29/04/2012, at 2:15 AM, Brian P. Swann wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Dear Gail
      >
      > Thanks for this - I didn't know you could buy this on a CD. Also I noticed
      > I have been spelling Cokayne wrong all these years.
      >
      > There is a final volume of Additions and Corrections (Volume 14) - which I
      > don't think the CD contains. The website below say this:
      >
      > The Complete Peerage is probably the most authoritative of all published
      > compilations of medieval (and modern) British genealogy. The first edition,
      > edited by George Edward Cokayne ("G.E.C."), was published between 1887 and
      > 1898, and the second, edited by Vicary Gibbs, H.A. Doubleday, Geoffrey White
      > and others, appeared in 13 volumes between 1910 and 1959.
      >
      > A 14th volume of additions and corrections, edited by Peter Hammond,
      > appeared in 1998, but inevitably some have slipped through the net.
      >
      > Then there are still further corrections and additions here:
      >
      > <http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/>
      > http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/
      >
      > Just shows what is involved with sorting out many of the main peerage
      > families. But in practice I probably go to Cokayne about 4-5 times a year
      > for various things.
      >
      > Anyway - a long way from R1b1c_U106-S21.
      >
      > Brian
      >

    • gigrant
      I created a discussion area in Anthrogenica for further discussions on the Ivanhoe Project. Emails like the one below would be fantastic additions to this
      Message 73 of 73 , Aug 15, 2012
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        I created a discussion area in Anthrogenica for further discussions on the Ivanhoe Project. Emails like the one below would be fantastic additions to this forum and may generate more interest in the Project. The link is http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?142-L47*-(Z159-DYS438-11)-The-quot-Ivanhoe-Cluster-quot&p=652#post652

        Has any more work been done on the timeline for splits??

        Geoff

        --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, d orlowski <dandd12@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Charlie,
        >
        > Could you please do the Y-DNA comparison for the Polish group vs the
        > Ivanhoe cluster. I'm a member of the Polish group and would findd it
        > interesting to know when we broke off with many ending up in the upper
        > reaches of the Vistula. Gothic tribes were always a possibility if the
        > split was old enough.
        >
        > Thankl you
        > Dan
        >
        > On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Charlie Cheshire <
        > charlie.cheshire@...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > I ran the Ivanhoe cluster on Charles' spreadsheet through the Y-DNA
        > > Comparison Utility using the 95% probably. It looks like I (Cheshire) broke
        > > off from the Ivanhoe modal about AD 500 and Grant branched off around AD
        > > 860. Blood broke off around AD 290. The rest of the English cluster and the
        > > Jewish cluster all branched off from the Ivanhoe modal sometime after
        > > around AD 1200. Mikail Rogov's Ivanhoe spreadsheet in the files section has
        > > a lot of good information. His phylogenetic chart of the L47* has Blood
        > > and myself on the phylogenetic tree sandwiched between the Jewish cluster
        > > and the Polish cluster. My branch is straight as an arrow with no twigs or
        > > branches. Makes me wonder if wars, plagues, famines, and daughtering out
        > > have made me a remnant, or is it just a case of skewed or poor
        > > sampling.Charlie
        > >
        > > *From:* Brent Richards <brentrichards@...>
        > > *To:* R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
        > > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 1, 2012 7:14 PM
        > > *Subject:* Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Z159 - New Old Idea
        > >
        > >
        > > That is also looking likely for many descendants of Z159's L47 brother
        > > viz. L44. They have a north Mercian/Northumbrian geographic distribution.
        > > Not one in the former Saxon kingdoms.
        > >
        > >
        > > *From:* Charlie Cheshire <charlie.cheshire@...>
        > > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 02, 2012 2:45 AM
        > > *To:* R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
        > > *Subject:* Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Z159 - New Old Idea
        > >
        > >
        > > Although the First Cohort of Frisiavones attached to the 20th Legion at
        > > Devra is one possible explanation, the simpliest is that our origin is with
        > > the Angles who were part of the Northumbrians and Mercians. Dr. McDonald
        > > did an analysis on my genome for me, and he said I was 100% English
        > > (autosomal results). My probable point of origin was centered on Northern
        > > England. The Northumbrians and Mercians controlled the areas that were
        > > included in the portion designated as region of origin. The Wreckensets are
        > > also within that area. They were the most westerly sub-tribe of the
        > > Mercians. Part of their tribal area included Cheshire.
        > > Charlie
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
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