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Is this L46?

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  • aschisma
    Would someone please have a look at YSearch 5C5W5 and advise? Is this likely to be L46? Would it make sense to test for that, rather than go for a full Deep
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2012
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      Would someone please have a look at YSearch 5C5W5 and advise? Is this likely to be L46? Would it make sense to test for that, rather than go for a full Deep Clade? I'm looking at the STR changes on the "Cross-reference for R-L48 subclades 2011.8.18" spreadsheet, and note that he has 391=10, 464d=17, and 576=18 (although 456=16). Thanks.
    • Charles
      The 37 markers shown on ysearch are a bit too limiting. This kit does look like L46. However, the 447=24 and 460=10 suggest Z326 (null 425) might be more
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 1, 2012
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        The 37 markers shown on ysearch are a bit too limiting. This kit does look like L46. However, the 447=24 and 460=10 suggest Z326 (null 425) might be more likely, which is not included on the current Deep Clade. So, it might be best to wait for the next Deep Clade revision, expected this Spring.

        Charles

        --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, "aschisma" <ozobryum@...> wrote:
        >
        > Would someone please have a look at YSearch 5C5W5 and advise? Is this likely to be L46? Would it make sense to test for that, rather than go for a full Deep Clade? I'm looking at the STR changes on the "Cross-reference for R-L48 subclades 2011.8.18" spreadsheet, and note that he has 391=10, 464d=17, and 576=18 (although 456=16). Thanks.
        >
      • Michael Maddi
        Charles makes a good point. According to the ysearch account 5C5W5, the haplogroup is unknown, so there s no SNP test yet. It certainly looks like it s L48+,
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 1, 2012
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          Charles makes a good point. According to the ysearch account 5C5W5, the haplogroup is unknown, so there's no SNP test yet. It certainly looks like it's L48+, but beyond that is more difficult to divine. Since L46 is downstream from L47, it seems premature to test for L46, especially given what Charles has posted and my comments below.

          As Charles noted, 5C5W5 does indeed have the signature of Z326 (390=23, 447=24, 460=10), which is a brother clade of L47, both below L48. So, it might be worthwhile to wait until the Z SNPs, including Z326, are included in a deep clade upgrade, sometime this year (almost typed "next year," forgetting we've reached 2012 today). Or perhaps order Z326 for $29 now, since there's a good possibility of being Z326+. (By the way, we've had our first case of someone who is L48+ and has a null 425, but has tested Z326-.)

          I did a search for matches with a GD of 4 or less to 5C5W5 at ysearch. There were 7 matches, with GD of 3 or less, including one exact match (3YV2Q) - see http://tinyurl.com/75nda2s Of the 7, 6 share the Z326 motif (390=23, 447=24, 460=10) and all 7 share 391=10 with 5C5W5. Two of these matches have 67 markers and both have DYS492=13, so this little cluster is almost certainly U106+; only a SNP test will confirm that. However, both of the 67 marker haplotypes have DYS425=12. It seems likely that the cluster just looks like it's Z326+, but isn't. If the upgrade of the deep clade test is too long to wait, maybe a better approach is to test Z9 and then Z326 or vice versa, if there's a Z326- result.

          Mike Maddi


          From: Charles <cdmo29@...>
          To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2012 11:22 AM
          Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Is this L46?

           
          The 37 markers shown on ysearch are a bit too limiting. This kit does look like L46. However, the 447=24 and 460=10 suggest Z326 (null 425) might be more likely, which is not included on the current Deep Clade. So, it might be best to wait for the next Deep Clade revision, expected this Spring.

          Charles

          --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, "aschisma" <ozobryum@...> wrote:
          >
          > Would someone please have a look at YSearch 5C5W5 and advise? Is this likely to be L46? Would it make sense to test for that, rather than go for a full Deep Clade? I'm looking at the STR changes on the "Cross-reference for R-L48 subclades 2011.8.18" spreadsheet, and note that he has 391=10, 464d=17, and 576=18 (although 456=16). Thanks.
          >



        • Raymond Wing
          Somewhat piggybacking on Mike s reply, it appears the Z-series subclade will turn out to be much larger than the L47 etal. subclade. You may wish to test for
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 1, 2012
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            Somewhat piggybacking on Mike's reply, it appears the Z-series subclade will turn out to be much larger than the L47 etal. subclade. You may wish to test for Z9 first, and if the result is negative, then test for L46.  

            Given the large number of SNPs underneath R1b-U106 (say nothing of its brother clades including R1b-P312) it is likely to be cheaper to test 2-3 SNPs than to purchase the (hopefully soon to arrive) updated Deep-Clade test.  
             
            Ray

            From: Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@...>
            To: "R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com" <R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2012 12:56 PM
            Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Is this L46?

             
            Charles makes a good point. According to the ysearch account 5C5W5, the haplogroup is unknown, so there's no SNP test yet. It certainly looks like it's L48+, but beyond that is more difficult to divine. Since L46 is downstream from L47, it seems premature to test for L46, especially given what Charles has posted and my comments below.

            As Charles noted, 5C5W5 does indeed have the signature of Z326 (390=23, 447=24, 460=10), which is a brother clade of L47, both below L48. So, it might be worthwhile to wait until the Z SNPs, including Z326, are included in a deep clade upgrade, sometime this year (almost typed "next year," forgetting we've reached 2012 today). Or perhaps order Z326 for $29 now, since there's a good possibility of being Z326+. (By the way, we've had our first case of someone who is L48+ and has a null 425, but has tested Z326-.)

            I did a search for matches with a GD of 4 or less to 5C5W5 at ysearch. There were 7 matches, with GD of 3 or less, including one exact match (3YV2Q) - see http://tinyurl.com/75nda2s Of the 7, 6 share the Z326 motif (390=23, 447=24, 460=10) and all 7 share 391=10 with 5C5W5. Two of these matches have 67 markers and both have DYS492=13, so this little cluster is almost certainly U106+; only a SNP test will confirm that. However, both of the 67 marker haplotypes have DYS425=12. It seems likely that the cluster just looks like it's Z326+, but isn't. If the upgrade of the deep clade test is too long to wait, maybe a better approach is to test Z9 and then Z326 or vice versa, if there's a Z326- result.

            Mike Maddi
          • GTC
            Interesting to learn that FTDNA is planning to modify its deep clade to include the Zs. I wonder where the new cutoff point will be, or will they go to the
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 1, 2012
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              Interesting to learn that FTDNA is planning to modify its deep clade to include the Zs. I wonder where the new cutoff point will be, or will they go to the latest known terminal SNPs in each subclade?

              --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@...> wrote:

              > So, it might be worthwhile to wait until the Z SNPs, including Z326, are included in a deep clade upgrade, sometime this year
            • Brian P. Swann
              I would like to know the answer to this question - but as a general question. In other words does FTDNA s Deep Clade test these days keep on going down until
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 1, 2012
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                I would like to know the answer to this question – but as a general question.

                 

                In other words does FTDNA’s Deep Clade test these days keep on going down until they have identified the lowest cut-off SNP based on the very latest Y-DNA tree structure when the test was conducted - and assuming the markers are individually listed in their Advanced Orders drop-down menu?

                 

                I have a colleague who is in the R1b-P312/DF21 Group.  But there are now 4 other new markers you can test for below DF21 – and I only took this test back in February 2011.

                 

                So what do FTDNA really mean these days with a “Deep Clade Test”?  How far will they go – all the way ??!!

                 

                Brian

                 

                From: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of GTC
                Sent: 01 January 2012 23:27
                To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Is this L46?

                 

                 

                Interesting to learn that FTDNA is planning to modify its deep clade to include the Zs. I wonder where the new cutoff point will be, or will they go to the latest known terminal SNPs in each subclade?

                --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@...> wrote:

                > So, it might be worthwhile to wait until the Z SNPs, including Z326, are included in a deep clade upgrade, sometime this year

              • Michael Maddi
                FTDNA updates its yDNA haplotree and the associated deep clade test at best once a year. I think there may have been cases of two years between updates. This
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 1, 2012
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                  FTDNA updates its yDNA haplotree and the associated deep clade test at best once a year. I think there may have been cases of two years between updates. This means that all the Z SNPs that you can order from the Advanced Orders menu are not part of the deep clade test. That's because they were discovered after the last update of FTDNA's y haplotree last March or April. In other words, only after FTDNA has updated its haplotree will its tree be the same as or close to the same as ISOGG's tree, which is updated much more frequently.

                  There's one exception that I can recall, which is L48. Based on 23andMe results, FTDNA started testing for L48 as an a la carte SNP for a short time in spring, 2009. They probably allowed that because there was a good idea that L48 represented a major SNP and there was a big demand for testing it. Then it was quickly added to the haplotree and deep clade test. However, it's proven downstream SNPs (L47, etc.) were not added to the tree or deep clade test until the last update. So, until that happened, those who ordered the deep clade test could find out if they were L48+, but not for anything downstream from that.

                  So, based on past experience, we expect a new haplotree and additions to the deep clade test sometime this year, perhaps in the spring. We don't know yet if all of the relevant Z SNPs will be added or only the most important ones.

                  Mike Maddi


                  From: Brian P. Swann <bps@...>
                  To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2012 5:48 PM
                  Subject: RE: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Is this L46?

                   
                  I would like to know the answer to this question – but as a general question.
                   
                  In other words does FTDNA’s Deep Clade test these days keep on going down until they have identified the lowest cut-off SNP based on the very latest Y-DNA tree structure when the test was conducted - and assuming the markers are individually listed in their Advanced Orders drop-down menu?
                   
                  I have a colleague who is in the R1b-P312/DF21 Group.  But there are now 4 other new markers you can test for below DF21 – and I only took this test back in February 2011.
                   
                  So what do FTDNA really mean these days with a “Deep Clade Test”?  How far will they go – all the way ??!!
                   
                  Brian
                   
                  From: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of GTC
                  Sent: 01 January 2012 23:27
                  To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Is this L46?
                   
                   
                  Interesting to learn that FTDNA is planning to modify its deep clade to include the Zs. I wonder where the new cutoff point will be, or will they go to the latest known terminal SNPs in each subclade?

                  --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@...> wrote:

                  > So, it might be worthwhile to wait until the Z SNPs, including Z326, are included in a deep clade upgrade, sometime this year


                • Brian P. Swann
                  Perfect Mike – thanks for the detailed explanation. I will try to remember to raise this with Max and Bennett at WDYTYA too – but we usually have so many
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 1, 2012
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                    Perfect Mike – thanks for the detailed explanation.

                     

                    I will try to remember to raise this with Max and Bennett at WDYTYA too – but we usually have so many other things to raise, that if I don’t write it down beforehand, it gets forgotten.

                     

                    Thanks again

                     

                    Brian

                     

                    From: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Maddi
                    Sent: 02 January 2012 00:09
                    To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Is this L46?

                     

                     FTDNA updates its yDNA haplotree and the associated deep clade test at best once a year. I think there may have been cases of two years between updates. This means that all the Z SNPs that you can order from the Advanced Orders menu are not part of the deep clade test. That's because they were discovered after the last update of FTDNA's y haplotree last March or April. In other words, only after FTDNA has updated its haplotree will its tree be the same as or close to the same as ISOGG's tree, which is updated much more frequently.

                     

                    There's one exception that I can recall, which is L48. Based on 23andMe results, FTDNA started testing for L48 as an a la carte SNP for a short time in spring, 2009. They probably allowed that because there was a good idea that L48 represented a major SNP and there was a big demand for testing it. Then it was quickly added to the haplotree and deep clade test. However, it's proven downstream SNPs (L47, etc.) were not added to the tree or deep clade test until the last update. So, until that happened, those who ordered the deep clade test could find out if they were L48+, but not for anything downstream from that.

                     

                    So, based on past experience, we expect a new haplotree and additions to the deep clade test sometime this year, perhaps in the spring. We don't know yet if all of the relevant Z SNPs will be added or only the most important ones.

                     

                    Mike Maddi

                     


                    From: Brian P. Swann <bps@...>
                    To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2012 5:48 PM
                    Subject: RE: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Is this L46?

                     

                    I would like to know the answer to this question – but as a general question.

                     

                    In other words does FTDNA’s Deep Clade test these days keep on going down until they have identified the lowest cut-off SNP based on the very latest Y-DNA tree structure when the test was conducted - and assuming the markers are individually listed in their Advanced Orders drop-down menu?

                     

                    I have a colleague who is in the R1b-P312/DF21 Group.  But there are now 4 other new markers you can test for below DF21 – and I only took this test back in February 2011.

                     

                    So what do FTDNA really mean these days with a “Deep Clade Test”?  How far will they go – all the way ??!!

                     

                    Brian

                     

                    From: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of GTC
                    Sent: 01 January 2012 23:27
                    To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Is this L46?

                     

                     

                    Interesting to learn that FTDNA is planning to modify its deep clade to include the Zs. I wonder where the new cutoff point will be, or will they go to the latest known terminal SNPs in each subclade?

                    --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@...> wrote:

                    > So, it might be worthwhile to wait until the Z SNPs, including Z326, are included in a deep clade upgrade, sometime this year

                     

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