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Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Cluster within L48+, Z8+ based on 111 marker results

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  • Shawn Sinclair
    David, thank you for the map. Very helpful. From: Shawn Sinclair To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 1, 2011
      David, thank you for the map. Very helpful.

      From: Shawn Sinclair <sofiatemplar@...>
      To: "R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com" <R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 10:45:20 PM
      Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Cluster within L48+, Z8+ based on 111 marker results

       
      Geographically located?
      Best,
      Shawn

      From: G. Magoon <gregm4584@...>
      To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 10:12:50 PM
      Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Cluster within L48+, Z8+ based on 111 marker results

       
      Using Raymond's spreadsheet, I think I have identified a likely STR cluster within L48+ and Z8+, characterized by DYS495=15 and DYS715=23 (both in the 68-111 marker group from the 111 marker upgrade).  The fact that DYS495 and DYS715 seem to be slowly-mutating markers, along with the observation that these two allele values tend to co-occur gives evidence to support my belief that the group defined by these marker values is a phylogenetically-meaningful cluster. As shorthand, I'm calling this the 1523 cluster. I have previously discussed this some on DNA-Forums, but I wanted to present it here with some additional details and try to see if we can get some more discussion going.

      I have identified 11 cluster members among the currently-available 111 marker haplotypes on the FTDNA U106 project. The kit #s and haplotypes are included in a new file I have just posted, titled "Z8 1523 cluster.xls" (see the bottom of http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b1c_U106-S21/files/), which is based off of Raymond's Z8 analysis file. So far, all of the 1523 cluster members who have tested for Z8 are Z8+ (there are 4 of us). There are also currently 4 Z8+ kits that do not belong to this 1523 cluster. Hopefully we'll be able to identify a SNP downstream of Z8 for this cluster in the coming months.

      In the meantime, I'm interested to see whether anyone is willing to engage in speculation over the origins of this cluster based on the surnames/locations associated with the kits. Based on my quick look and limited historical knowledge, there seems to be an affiliation with the British Isles, and, more speculatively, the potential for Norman or Anglo-Saxon associations for this cluster, but I would be very interested to hear what others think, particularly since I am a cluster member!

      Greg




    • Raymond Wing
      Greg, Given the work you had completed on the 1000 Genome project (see http://www.box.net/shared/mq46jpryilbq6cj9zsbk), it is possible your 1523 cluster may
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 1, 2011
        Greg,

        Given the work you had completed on the 1000 Genome project (see http://www.box.net/shared/mq46jpryilbq6cj9zsbk), it is possible your 1523 cluster may be an indicator of a downstream SNP, such as Z1 (or even Z6 or Z13). Hopefully FT-DNA will be offering more of these Z series SNPs in the near future.
         
        Ray

        From: G. Magoon <gregm4584@...>
        To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, August 1, 2011 12:12 AM
        Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Cluster within L48+, Z8+ based on 111 marker results

         
        Using Raymond's spreadsheet, I think I have identified a likely STR cluster within L48+ and Z8+, characterized by DYS495=15 and DYS715=23 (both in the 68-111 marker group from the 111 marker upgrade).  The fact that DYS495 and DYS715 seem to be slowly-mutating markers, along with the observation that these two allele values tend to co-occur gives evidence to support my belief that the group defined by these marker values is a phylogenetically-meaningful cluster. As shorthand, I'm calling this the 1523 cluster. I have previously discussed this some on DNA-Forums, but I wanted to present it here with some additional details and try to see if we can get some more discussion going.

        I have identified 11 cluster members among the currently-available 111 marker haplotypes on the FTDNA U106 project. The kit #s and haplotypes are included in a new file I have just posted, titled "Z8 1523 cluster.xls" (see the bottom of http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b1c_U106-S21/files/), which is based off of Raymond's Z8 analysis file. So far, all of the 1523 cluster members who have tested for Z8 are Z8+ (there are 4 of us). There are also currently 4 Z8+ kits that do not belong to this 1523 cluster. Hopefully we'll be able to identify a SNP downstream of Z8 for this cluster in the coming months.

        In the meantime, I'm interested to see whether anyone is willing to engage in speculation over the origins of this cluster based on the surnames/locations associated with the kits. Based on my quick look and limited historical knowledge, there seems to be an affiliation with the British Isles, and, more speculatively, the potential for Norman or Anglo-Saxon associations for this cluster, but I would be very interested to hear what others think, particularly since I am a cluster member!

        Greg


      • Debbie Kennett
        Greg I m still waiting for the Z8 results for 102705 which is DYS 495 15 but DYS 715=24. I believe that kit nos 102705 and 130860 share common ancestry from
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 1, 2011
          Greg

          I'm still waiting for the Z8 results for 102705 which is DYS 495 15 but DYS
          715=24.

          I believe that kit nos 102705 and 130860 share common ancestry from the
          1100s. If so, I'm expecting kit. no. 102705 to test positive for Z8. This is
          a Norman surname with one branch (represented by kit no. 102705) settling in
          Devon, England, and the other branch (kit no. 130860) moving to Ireland
          during the Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland in 1169. If our ancestry theory
          is correct then there has been a mutation on DYS 495 in one of the two
          branches as the men have different values on this marker.

          In case it's of interest I have a third kit tested to 111 markers (107091)
          which helps to set these two results in context. Kit no. 107091 shares a
          common ancestor with kit no. 102705. Their common ancestor was born in about
          1449. Kit no. 107091 has not signed the release form and is therefore not in
          the matching database but his results can be seen here:

          http://www.familytreedna.com/public/CruwysDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

          Our little Cruse/Cruwys/Cruise group is currently defined by DYS 712=18
          which, as far as I'm aware has only so far been found in the men in my
          project.

          Debbie Kennett
          http://www.familytreedna.com/public/CruwysDNA/
        • G. Magoon
          Thanks Debbie, This is very helpful. I had placed 102705 as a tentative 1523 cluster member, but the information you present makes me think that the DYS495=15
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 1, 2011
            Thanks Debbie,

            This is very helpful. I had placed 102705 as a tentative 1523 cluster member, but the information you present makes me think that the DYS495=15 in this kit is probably due to a separate, likely more recent, mutational event, and that 102705, like 130860, does not belong in this 1523 cluster. In any case, it will be an interesting kit to test if we find that one of the downstream SNPs that Raymond mentioned is associated with this cluster. 

            Also, the Norman roots you mentioned are very interesting, and seem (?) to give credence to the idea of the Z8 clade (or some non-trivial part of it) having some sort of an affiliation with Anglo-Normans.

            Please keep us up-to-date with your findings and conclusions, as it sounds like results from your project may prove to be particularly useful in gaining insight into these L48+/Z8+ sub-clades.

            Greg

            On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 5:41 AM, Debbie Kennett <debbiekennett@...> wrote:
             

            Greg

            I'm still waiting for the Z8 results for 102705 which is DYS 495 15 but DYS
            715=24.

            I believe that kit nos 102705 and 130860 share common ancestry from the
            1100s. If so, I'm expecting kit. no. 102705 to test positive for Z8. This is
            a Norman surname with one branch (represented by kit no. 102705) settling in
            Devon, England, and the other branch (kit no. 130860) moving to Ireland
            during the Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland in 1169. If our ancestry theory
            is correct then there has been a mutation on DYS 495 in one of the two
            branches as the men have different values on this marker.

            In case it's of interest I have a third kit tested to 111 markers (107091)
            which helps to set these two results in context. Kit no. 107091 shares a
            common ancestor with kit no. 102705. Their common ancestor was born in about
            1449. Kit no. 107091 has not signed the release form and is therefore not in
            the matching database but his results can be seen here:

            http://www.familytreedna.com/public/CruwysDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

            Our little Cruse/Cruwys/Cruise group is currently defined by DYS 712=18
            which, as far as I'm aware has only so far been found in the men in my
            project.

            Debbie Kennett
            http://www.familytreedna.com/public/CruwysDNA/

          • G. Magoon
            Hi Shawn, I haven t looked extensively at the geographic aspects, but there seems to be an affiliation with the British Isles...I didn t find any continental
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 1, 2011
              Hi Shawn,
              I haven't looked extensively at the geographic aspects, but there seems to be an affiliation with the British Isles...I didn't find any continental cluster members amongst these 11 kits, though it is possible some could emerge with additional 111 marker results for other kits. If you're interested in taking a closer look, the kit origins can be seen at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=ysnp .

              Right now I'm going to see if I can figure out how to estimate an age for this cluster.

              Greg

              On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 12:45 AM, Shawn Sinclair <sofiatemplar@...> wrote:
               

              Geographically located?
              Best,
              Shawn


            • Shawn Sinclair
              Fantastic and fascinating Greg, thanks for the info. please keep me informed I m wondering if the continental branches were in France, Germany, or Scandia.
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 1, 2011
                Fantastic and fascinating Greg, thanks for the info. please keep me informed I'm wondering if the continental branches were in France, Germany, or Scandia.
                Best,
                Shawn

                From: G. Magoon <gregm4584@...>
                To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, August 1, 2011 4:14:53 PM
                Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Cluster within L48+, Z8+ based on 111 marker results

                 
                Hi Shawn,
                I haven't looked extensively at the geographic aspects, but there seems to be an affiliation with the British Isles...I didn't find any continental cluster members amongst these 11 kits, though it is possible some could emerge with additional 111 marker results for other kits. If you're interested in taking a closer look, the kit origins can be seen at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=ysnp .

                Right now I'm going to see if I can figure out how to estimate an age for this cluster.

                Greg

                On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 12:45 AM, Shawn Sinclair <sofiatemplar@...> wrote:
                 
                Geographically located?
                Best,
                Shawn




              • davidcar801
                I ran a version of my Z8 chart with Geographic origins replacing kit names, and I can see no geographic pattern.
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 1, 2011
                  I ran a version of my Z8 chart with Geographic origins replacing kit names, and I can see no geographic pattern.

                  --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Shawn Sinclair <sofiatemplar@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > David, thank you for the map. Very helpful.
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Shawn Sinclair <sofiatemplar@...>
                  > To: "R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com" <R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 10:45:20 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Cluster within L48+, Z8+ based on 111 marker results
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  > Geographically located?
                  > Best,
                  > Shawn
                  >
                  > From: G. Magoon <gregm4584@...>
                  > To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 10:12:50 PM
                  > Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Cluster within L48+, Z8+ based on 111 marker results
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  > Using Raymond's spreadsheet, I think I have identified a likely STR cluster within L48+ and Z8+, characterized by DYS495=15 and DYS715=23 (both in the 68-111 marker group from the 111 marker upgrade).  The fact that DYS495 and DYS715 seem to be slowly-mutating markers, along with the observation that these two allele values tend to co-occur gives evidence to support my belief that the group defined by these marker values is a phylogenetically-meaningful cluster. As shorthand, I'm calling this the 1523 cluster. I have previously discussed this some on DNA-Forums, but I wanted to present it here with some additional details and try to see if we can get some more discussion going.
                  >
                  > I have identified 11 cluster members among the currently-available 111 marker haplotypes on the FTDNA U106 project. The kit #s and haplotypes are included in a new file I have just posted, titled "Z8 1523 cluster.xls" (see the bottom of http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b1c_U106-S21/files/), which is based off of Raymond's Z8 analysis file. So far, all of the 1523 cluster members who have tested for Z8 are Z8+ (there are 4 of us). There are also currently 4 Z8+ kits that do not belong to this 1523 cluster. Hopefully we'll be able to identify a SNP downstream of Z8 for this cluster in the coming months.
                  >
                  > In the meantime, I'm interested to see whether anyone is willing to engage in speculation over the origins of this cluster based on the surnames/locations associated with the kits. Based on my quick look and limited historical knowledge, there seems to be an affiliation with the British Isles, and, more speculatively, the potential for Norman or Anglo-Saxon associations for this cluster, but I would be very interested to hear what others think, particularly since I am a cluster member!
                  >
                  > Greg
                  >
                • Raymond Wing
                  I believe you were not able to see any geographic pattern within Z8 due to the fact no genealogy paper trail goes back far enough. Even the Cruwys family (who
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 2, 2011
                    I believe you were not able to see any geographic pattern within Z8 due to the fact no genealogy paper trail goes back far enough. Even the Cruwys family (who can loosely trace their family to about the time of the Norman Conquest) doesn't go back to the time period needed. At one time, I had seen a rough time estimate of 1500-2000 years for the age of Z8 (and this estimate may well be wrong). We would need to trace the families back that far (which is impossible) in order to accurately ascertain the origins.

                    Another difficulty in identifying any geographic origin to Z8 (or really virtually any SNP in Western Europe, especially in the British Isles) is due to repeated invasions by related tribes. The three major invasions of England (Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Norman) all came from roughly the same area, and it is quite likely some Z8 folks may have participated in each of these invasions.
                     
                    Ray

                    From: davidcar801 <davidcar801@...>
                    To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, August 1, 2011 9:40 PM
                    Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Cluster within L48+, Z8+ based on 111 marker results

                     
                    I ran a version of my Z8 chart with Geographic origins replacing kit names, and I can see no geographic pattern.

                  • Brent R
                    I believe Z8 came from Zetland aka Shetland, before that I m not sure. Brent R
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 2, 2011
                      I believe Z8 came from Zetland aka Shetland, before that I'm not sure.

                      Brent R


                      Raymond Wing wrote:
                       
                      I believe you were not able to see any geographic pattern within Z8 due to the fact no genealogy paper trail goes back far enough. Even the Cruwys family (who can loosely trace their family to about the time of the Norman Conquest) doesn't go back to the time period needed. At one time, I had seen a rough time estimate of 1500-2000 years for the age of Z8 (and this estimate may well be wrong). We would need to trace the families back that far (which is impossible) in order to accurately ascertain the origins.

                      Another difficulty in identifying any geographic origin to Z8 (or really virtually any SNP in Western Europe, especially in the British Isles) is due to repeated invasions by related tribes. The three major invasions of England (Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Norman) all came from roughly the same area, and it is quite likely some Z8 folks may have participated in each of these invasions.
                       
                      Ray
                    • Shawn Sinclair
                      Z8 is from Shetland? Thats interesting, are the members who have tested positive for Z8 from that area or have a documented papertrail to that region? Best,
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 2, 2011
                        Z8 is from Shetland? Thats interesting, are the members who have tested positive for Z8 from that area or have a documented papertrail to that region?
                        Best,
                        Shawn

                        From: Brent R <brentrichards@...>
                        To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, August 2, 2011 3:03:34 AM
                        Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Cluster within L48+, Z8+ based on 111 marker results

                         
                        I believe Z8 came from Zetland aka Shetland, before that I'm not sure.

                        Brent R


                        Raymond Wing wrote:
                         
                        I believe you were not able to see any geographic pattern within Z8 due to the fact no genealogy paper trail goes back far enough. Even the Cruwys family (who can loosely trace their family to about the time of the Norman Conquest) doesn't go back to the time period needed. At one time, I had seen a rough time estimate of 1500-2000 years for the age of Z8 (and this estimate may well be wrong). We would need to trace the families back that far (which is impossible) in order to accurately ascertain the origins.

                        Another difficulty in identifying any geographic origin to Z8 (or really virtually any SNP in Western Europe, especially in the British Isles) is due to repeated invasions by related tribes. The three major invasions of England (Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Norman) all came from roughly the same area, and it is quite likely some Z8 folks may have participated in each of these invasions.
                         
                        Ray


                      • Debbie Kennett
                        The Cruwys tree can be traced back with reasonable confidence to the late 1100s/early 1200s in Devon. The family have been Lords of the Manor of the parish of
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 2, 2011
                          The Cruwys tree can be traced back with reasonable confidence to the late
                          1100s/early 1200s in Devon. The family have been Lords of the Manor of the
                          parish of Cruwys Morchard in North Devon continuously from this time until
                          the present day. The earliest document in the family collection has been
                          dated to around 1200 and the name is spelt "de Cruwes":

                          http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/SouthMolton/TracyDeed.html

                          There are a number of possibilities for the location of the place known
                          variously as Cruwes, Cruys, Cruse, Cruis, etc.

                          One possibility is Creus Anisy in Normandy which is now known simply as
                          Anisy

                          http://tinyurl.com/44qwnbh

                          A second possibility is Cruys-Straete in the départemente of Nord, midway
                          between Dunkirk and Lille in Northern France.

                          http://tinyurl.com/4xrh95n

                          There is also a place called Kruis in Belgium:

                          http://www.fallingrain.com/world/BE/12/Kruis.html

                          We really need more U106 project members from Belgium and France.

                          Debbie Kennett
                        • John T Nichols
                          Brent, What are your reasons for that belief? John T. Nichols Brent R wrote: I believe Z8 came from Zetland aka Shetland, before that I m not sure. Brent R
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 2, 2011
                            Brent,

                            What are your reasons for that belief?

                            John T. Nichols

                            Brent R wrote:
                             

                            I believe Z8 came from Zetland aka Shetland, before that I'm not sure.

                            Brent R


                            Raymond Wing wrote:

                             
                            I believe you were not able to see any geographic pattern within Z8 due to the fact no genealogy paper trail goes back far enough. Even the Cruwys family (who can loosely trace their family to about the time of the Norman Conquest) doesn't go back to the time period needed. At one time, I had seen a rough time estimate of 1500-2000 years for the age of Z8 (and this estimate may well be wrong). We would need to trace the families back that far (which is impossible) in order to accurately ascertain the origins.

                            Another difficulty in identifying any geographic origin to Z8 (or really virtually any SNP in Western Europe, especially in the British Isles) is due to repeated invasions by related tribes. The three major invasions of England (Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Norman) all came from roughly the same area, and it is quite likely some Z8 folks may have participated in each of these invasions.
                             
                            Ray
                        • Brent R
                          According to linguistic experts, the word Zetland derives from an archaic pronunciation of Z8 Zeight -land, land of the Z8 peoples.
                          Message 13 of 18 , Aug 2, 2011
                            According to linguistic experts, the word Zetland derives from an archaic pronunciation of Z8 "Zeight"-land, land of the Z8 peoples.


                            Shawn Sinclair wrote:
                             
                            Z8 is from Shetland? Thats interesting, are the members who have tested positive for Z8 from that area or have a documented papertrail to that region?
                            Best,
                            Shawn

                            From: Brent R <brentrichards@...>
                            To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, August 2, 2011 3:03:34 AM
                            Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Cluster within L48+, Z8+ based on 111 marker results

                             
                            I believe Z8 came from Zetland aka Shetland, before that I'm not sure.

                            Brent R


                            Raymond Wing wrote:
                             
                            I believe you were not able to see any geographic pattern within Z8 due to the fact no genealogy paper trail goes back far enough. Even the Cruwys family (who can loosely trace their family to about the time of the Norman Conquest) doesn't go back to the time period needed. At one time, I had seen a rough time estimate of 1500-2000 years for the age of Z8 (and this estimate may well be wrong). We would need to trace the families back that far (which is impossible) in order to accurately ascertain the origins.

                            Another difficulty in identifying any geographic origin to Z8 (or really virtually any SNP in Western Europe, especially in the British Isles) is due to repeated invasions by related tribes. The three major invasions of England (Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Norman) all came from roughly the same area, and it is quite likely some Z8 folks may have participated in each of these invasions.
                             
                            Ray


                          • Dave+Nina Cawthorne
                            Hi Brent, Sorry to contradict you, but Zetland has nothing to do with an archaic pronounciation of Z8. It happened because the word used to be written
                            Message 14 of 18 , Aug 3, 2011

                              Hi Brent,

                              Sorry to contradict you, but "Zetland" has nothing to do with an archaic pronounciation of Z8.  It happened because the word used to be written beginning with the old Anglo-Saxon letter "yogh" and that was mistranslated to be a "Z".  Sometimes it's been written with a "Y" as in "Yetland".  Nevertheless, it's nothing to do with Z8.  See this explanation:
                              http://www.scottishhandwriting.com/cmLFyo.asp

                              Regards, Nina

                              To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                              From: brentrichards@...
                              Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:22:56 +1000
                              Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Cluster within L48+, Z8+ based on 111 marker results

                               
                              According to linguistic experts, the word Zetland derives from an archaic pronunciation of Z8 "Zeight"-land, land of the Z8 peoples.


                              Shawn Sinclair wrote:
                               
                              Z8 is from Shetland? Thats interesting, are the members who have tested positive for Z8 from that area or have a documented papertrail to that region?
                              Best,
                              Shawn

                              From: Brent R <brentrichards@...>
                              To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, August 2, 2011 3:03:34 AM
                              Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Cluster within L48+, Z8+ based on 111 marker results

                               
                              I believe Z8 came from Zetland aka Shetland, before that I'm not sure.

                              Brent R


                              Raymond Wing wrote:
                               
                              I believe you were not able to see any geographic pattern within Z8 due to the fact no genealogy paper trail goes back far enough. Even the Cruwys family (who can loosely trace their family to about the time of the Norman Conquest) doesn't go back to the time period needed. At one time, I had seen a rough time estimate of 1500-2000 years for the age of Z8 (and this estimate may well be wrong). We would need to trace the families back that far (which is impossible) in order to accurately ascertain the origins.

                              Another difficulty in identifying any geographic origin to Z8 (or really virtually any SNP in Western Europe, especially in the British Isles) is due to repeated invasions by related tribes. The three major invasions of England (Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Norman) all came from roughly the same area, and it is quite likely some Z8 folks may have participated in each of these invasions.
                               
                              Ray



                            • Raymond
                              Greg, Looking at McGee s Utility, it does appear you have defined a cluster of (fairly) closely related haplotypes. The utility flags several of these
                              Message 15 of 18 , Aug 5, 2011
                                Greg,

                                Looking at McGee's Utility, it does appear you have defined a cluster of (fairly) closely related haplotypes. The utility "flags" several of these haplotypes with green & yellow, indicating, related and probably related. It also flags kit 199826 (which has not tested markers 68-111) as another possible member of the cluster (as they are closely related to kits 71914 & N29457, both members of your cluster).

                                You can see the results of McGee's Utility under the photo section.
                              • G. Magoon
                                Very interesting, thanks Ray. Two new Z8+ results have just come in this evening:
                                Message 16 of 18 , Aug 5, 2011
                                  Very interesting, thanks Ray.

                                  Two new Z8+ results have just come in this evening: http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/15536-results-for-z-snps-under-l48/page__view__findpost__p__260281

                                  On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Raymond <wing_genealogist@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Greg,

                                  Looking at McGee's Utility, it does appear you have defined a cluster of (fairly) closely related haplotypes. The utility "flags" several of these haplotypes with green & yellow, indicating, related and probably related. It also flags kit 199826 (which has not tested markers 68-111) as another possible member of the cluster (as they are closely related to kits 71914 & N29457, both members of your cluster).

                                  You can see the results of McGee's Utility under the photo section.

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