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R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?

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  • Mike
    Dienekes Pontikos, who posts on various genetic genealogy lists and has his own anthropology blog, had an interesting posting this morning on the Genealogy-DNA
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 1, 2009
      Dienekes Pontikos, who posts on various genetic genealogy lists and has his own anthropology blog, had an interesting posting this morning on the Genealogy-DNA list at Rootsweb.com. It concerned test results from the remains of 6 men found in a 7th century grave in Bavaria. Based on results from 24 markers (no SNP testing), 4 of the men were R1b and the other 2 men were G2a. Three of the R1b men, perhaps all four, were closely related, with two possibly brothers.

      Here's a reply that I posted to Dienekes' original Rootsweb posting:


      Dienekes posted on the list about ancient DNA ySTR results from medieval Germany. In his blog entry on this (at http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/06/y-chromosomes-from-7th-c-ergolding.html), he suggested that someone run the haplotypes through ysearch for close matches. So I did.

      Seeing that 3 of the 4 R1b men had DYS390=23 and DYS447=24, which is a common signature in R1b-L48, I was not surprised to see that many of the close matches in ysearch are R1b-L48. In the R1b-U106 Project, among the 162 members with an L48+ result, 55 have that signature, while only 1 of the 121 with an L48- result have that signature.

      Here's a link to the search results, with a GD of 3 for the 24 marker haplotype - http://tinyurl.com/mg2etp

      There were 13 matches at this level, one of which is a modal haplotype. Of the 12 actual haplotypes of an indvidual, 4 had R1b1b2a1a4 (R1b-L48) listed as their haplogroup and 2 had R1b1b2a1a (R1b-U106). There were 2 with R1b1b2a1b5 (R1b-L21). The remaining 4 matches just had R1b1b2 as the haplogroup. Looking at the haplotype comparison, 6 of the 12 have either DYS492=13 or 14, and the other 6 have DYS492=12.

      Since DYS492=13 is a stong indicator of R1b-U106 and subclades and DYS492=12 is a strong indicator of R1b-P1312 and subclades, it looks like there's a 50/50 chance for these medieval Germans to belong to either R1b subclade. However, given the DYS390=23 and DYS447=24 signature that was found in the remains, I think it's more likely that the remains belong to men who were R1b-U106 and more specifically R1b-L48.

      Mike Maddi
    • Roy
      DYS 635 may not be a tested marker for some of us, me included, so I ran the lookup for just 23 of the 24 markers and there a lot of gd3 results that show up
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 1, 2009
        DYS 635 may not be a tested marker for some of us, me included, so I ran
        the lookup for just 23 of the 24 markers and there a lot of gd3 results
        that show up then.

        Roy

        Mike wrote:
        > Dienekes Pontikos, who posts on various genetic genealogy lists and has his own anthropology blog, had an interesting posting this morning on the Genealogy-DNA list at Rootsweb.com. It concerned test results from the remains of 6 men found in a 7th century grave in Bavaria. Based on results from 24 markers (no SNP testing), 4 of the men were R1b and the other 2 men were G2a. Three of the R1b men, perhaps all four, were closely related, with two possibly brothers.
        >
        > Here's a reply that I posted to Dienekes' original Rootsweb posting:
        >
        >
        > Dienekes posted on the list about ancient DNA ySTR results from medieval Germany. In his blog entry on this (at http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/06/y-chromosomes-from-7th-c-ergolding.html), he suggested that someone run the haplotypes through ysearch for close matches. So I did.
        >
        > Seeing that 3 of the 4 R1b men had DYS390=23 and DYS447=24, which is a common signature in R1b-L48, I was not surprised to see that many of the close matches in ysearch are R1b-L48. In the R1b-U106 Project, among the 162 members with an L48+ result, 55 have that signature, while only 1 of the 121 with an L48- result have that signature.
        >
        > Here's a link to the search results, with a GD of 3 for the 24 marker haplotype - http://tinyurl.com/mg2etp
        >
        > There were 13 matches at this level, one of which is a modal haplotype. Of the 12 actual haplotypes of an indvidual, 4 had R1b1b2a1a4 (R1b-L48) listed as their haplogroup and 2 had R1b1b2a1a (R1b-U106). There were 2 with R1b1b2a1b5 (R1b-L21). The remaining 4 matches just had R1b1b2 as the haplogroup. Looking at the haplotype comparison, 6 of the 12 have either DYS492=13 or 14, and the other 6 have DYS492=12.
        >
        > Since DYS492=13 is a stong indicator of R1b-U106 and subclades and DYS492=12 is a strong indicator of R1b-P1312 and subclades, it looks like there's a 50/50 chance for these medieval Germans to belong to either R1b subclade. However, given the DYS390=23 and DYS447=24 signature that was found in the remains, I think it's more likely that the remains belong to men who were R1b-U106 and more specifically R1b-L48.
        >
        > Mike Maddi
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Roy
      • Shawn Sinclair
        Thanks Roy, does anyone have their Y-search # s? And can I run their markers for myself and compare them with my project? Best, Shawn ... From: Roy
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 1, 2009
          Thanks Roy, does anyone have their Y-search #'s? And can I run their markers for myself and compare them with my project?
          Best,
          Shawn

          --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Roy <rdwelch@...> wrote:

          From: Roy <rdwelch@...>
          Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
          To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
          Received: Monday, June 1, 2009, 1:12 PM

          DYS 635 may not be a tested marker for some of us, me included, so I ran
          the lookup for just 23 of the 24 markers and there a lot of gd3 results
          that show up then.

          Roy

          Mike wrote:
          > Dienekes Pontikos, who posts on various genetic genealogy lists and has his own anthropology blog, had an interesting posting this morning on the Genealogy-DNA list at Rootsweb.com. It concerned test results from the remains of 6 men found in a 7th century grave in Bavaria. Based on results from 24 markers (no SNP testing), 4 of the men were R1b and the other 2 men were G2a. Three of the R1b men, perhaps all four, were closely related, with two possibly brothers.
          >
          > Here's a reply that I posted to Dienekes' original Rootsweb posting:
          >
          >
          > Dienekes posted on the list about ancient DNA ySTR results from medieval Germany. In his blog entry on this (at http://dienekes. blogspot. com/2009/ 06/y-chromosomes -from-7th- c-ergolding. html), he suggested that someone run the haplotypes through ysearch for close matches. So I did.
          >
          > Seeing that 3 of the 4 R1b men had DYS390=23 and DYS447=24, which is a common signature in R1b-L48, I was not surprised to see that many of the close matches in ysearch are R1b-L48. In the R1b-U106 Project, among the 162 members with an L48+ result, 55 have that signature, while only 1 of the 121 with an L48- result have that signature.
          >
          > Here's a link to the search results, with a GD of 3 for the 24 marker haplotype - http://tinyurl. com/mg2etp
          >
          > There were 13 matches at this level, one of which is a modal haplotype. Of the 12 actual haplotypes of an indvidual, 4 had R1b1b2a1a4 (R1b-L48) listed as their haplogroup and 2 had R1b1b2a1a (R1b-U106). There were 2 with R1b1b2a1b5 (R1b-L21). The remaining 4 matches just had R1b1b2 as the haplogroup. Looking at the haplotype comparison, 6 of the 12 have either DYS492=13 or 14, and the other 6 have DYS492=12.
          >
          > Since DYS492=13 is a stong indicator of R1b-U106 and subclades and DYS492=12 is a strong indicator of R1b-P1312 and subclades, it looks like there's a 50/50 chance for these medieval Germans to belong to either R1b subclade. However, given the DYS390=23 and DYS447=24 signature that was found in the remains, I think it's more likely that the remains belong to men who were R1b-U106 and more specifically R1b-L48.
          >
          > Mike Maddi
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------ --------- --------- ------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
          Roy



          The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free!
        • Charles Moore
          244A, B, and C are posted on rows 205 and 206 of my B9 L48+ Spreadsheet, with their codes and STRs. 244D is on row 66 of my B8 L48- Spreadsheet. I tried
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 1, 2009
            244A, B, and C are posted on rows 205 and 206 of my "B9" L48+ Spreadsheet, with their codes and STRs.

            244D is on row 66 of my "B8" L48- Spreadsheet. I tried to find a home for him in L48+ but he did not seem to fit anywhere there.

            The usual caveats apply. I just slotted these long dead peeps where they best seem to fit.

            Thanks to Mike Maddi for this very interesting info.

            Charles



            --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Shawn Sinclair <sofiatemplar@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks Roy, does anyone have their Y-search #'s? And can I run their markers for myself and compare them with my project?
            > Best,
            > Shawn
            >
            > --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Roy <rdwelch@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: Roy <rdwelch@...>
            > Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
            > To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
            > Received: Monday, June 1, 2009, 1:12 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > DYS 635 may not be a tested marker for some of us, me included, so I ran
            > the lookup for just 23 of the 24 markers and there a lot of gd3 results
            > that show up then.
            >
            > Roy
            >
            > Mike wrote:
            > > Dienekes Pontikos, who posts on various genetic genealogy lists and has his own anthropology blog, had an interesting posting this morning on the Genealogy-DNA list at Rootsweb.com. It concerned test results from the remains of 6 men found in a 7th century grave in Bavaria. Based on results from 24 markers (no SNP testing), 4 of the men were R1b and the other 2 men were G2a. Three of the R1b men, perhaps all four, were closely related, with two possibly brothers.
            > >
            > > Here's a reply that I posted to Dienekes' original Rootsweb posting:
            > >
            > >
            > > Dienekes posted on the list about ancient DNA ySTR results from medieval Germany. In his blog entry on this (at http://dienekes. blogspot. com/2009/ 06/y-chromosomes -from-7th- c-ergolding. html), he suggested that someone run the haplotypes through ysearch for close matches. So I did.
            > >
            > > Seeing that 3 of the 4 R1b men had DYS390=23 and DYS447=24, which is a common signature in R1b-L48, I was not surprised to see that many of the close matches in ysearch are R1b-L48. In the R1b-U106 Project, among the 162 members with an L48+ result, 55 have that signature, while only 1 of the 121 with an L48- result have that signature.
            > >
            > > Here's a link to the search results, with a GD of 3 for the 24 marker haplotype - http://tinyurl. com/mg2etp
            > >
            > > There were 13 matches at this level, one of which is a modal haplotype. Of the 12 actual haplotypes of an indvidual, 4 had R1b1b2a1a4 (R1b-L48) listed as their haplogroup and 2 had R1b1b2a1a (R1b-U106). There were 2 with R1b1b2a1b5 (R1b-L21). The remaining 4 matches just had R1b1b2 as the haplogroup. Looking at the haplotype comparison, 6 of the 12 have either DYS492=13 or 14, and the other 6 have DYS492=12.
            > >
            > > Since DYS492=13 is a stong indicator of R1b-U106 and subclades and DYS492=12 is a strong indicator of R1b-P1312 and subclades, it looks like there's a 50/50 chance for these medieval Germans to belong to either R1b subclade. However, given the DYS390=23 and DYS447=24 signature that was found in the remains, I think it's more likely that the remains belong to men who were R1b-U106 and more specifically R1b-L48.
            > >
            > > Mike Maddi
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > Roy
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________________________
            > Make your browsing faster, safer, and easier with the new Internet Explorer® 8. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/
            >
          • Shawn Sinclair
            Micheal, thank you. I need to call you, can you send the info offlist please. Best, Shawn ... From: Roy Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21]
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 1, 2009
              Micheal, thank you. I need to call you, can you send the info offlist please.
              Best,
              Shawn

              --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Roy <rdwelch@...> wrote:

              From: Roy <rdwelch@...>
              Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
              To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
              Received: Monday, June 1, 2009, 1:12 PM

              DYS 635 may not be a tested marker for some of us, me included, so I ran
              the lookup for just 23 of the 24 markers and there a lot of gd3 results
              that show up then.

              Roy

              Mike wrote:
              > Dienekes Pontikos, who posts on various genetic genealogy lists and has his own anthropology blog, had an interesting posting this morning on the Genealogy-DNA list at Rootsweb.com. It concerned test results from the remains of 6 men found in a 7th century grave in Bavaria. Based on results from 24 markers (no SNP testing), 4 of the men were R1b and the other 2 men were G2a. Three of the R1b men, perhaps all four, were closely related, with two possibly brothers.
              >
              > Here's a reply that I posted to Dienekes' original Rootsweb posting:
              >
              >
              > Dienekes posted on the list about ancient DNA ySTR results from medieval Germany. In his blog entry on this (at http://dienekes. blogspot. com/2009/ 06/y-chromosomes -from-7th- c-ergolding. html), he suggested that someone run the haplotypes through ysearch for close matches. So I did.
              >
              > Seeing that 3 of the 4 R1b men had DYS390=23 and DYS447=24, which is a common signature in R1b-L48, I was not surprised to see that many of the close matches in ysearch are R1b-L48. In the R1b-U106 Project, among the 162 members with an L48+ result, 55 have that signature, while only 1 of the 121 with an L48- result have that signature.
              >
              > Here's a link to the search results, with a GD of 3 for the 24 marker haplotype - http://tinyurl. com/mg2etp
              >
              > There were 13 matches at this level, one of which is a modal haplotype. Of the 12 actual haplotypes of an indvidual, 4 had R1b1b2a1a4 (R1b-L48) listed as their haplogroup and 2 had R1b1b2a1a (R1b-U106). There were 2 with R1b1b2a1b5 (R1b-L21). The remaining 4 matches just had R1b1b2 as the haplogroup. Looking at the haplotype comparison, 6 of the 12 have either DYS492=13 or 14, and the other 6 have DYS492=12.
              >
              > Since DYS492=13 is a stong indicator of R1b-U106 and subclades and DYS492=12 is a strong indicator of R1b-P1312 and subclades, it looks like there's a 50/50 chance for these medieval Germans to belong to either R1b subclade. However, given the DYS390=23 and DYS447=24 signature that was found in the remains, I think it's more likely that the remains belong to men who were R1b-U106 and more specifically R1b-L48.
              >
              > Mike Maddi
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------ --------- --------- ------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              --
              Roy



              The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free!
            • Shawn Sinclair
              Mike, can you give me their Y-search ID s, is there a way of finding out who they were, and if they belonged to a particular family? Or any person who has info
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 1, 2009
                Mike, can you give me their Y-search ID's, is there a way of finding out who they were, and if they belonged to a particular family? Or any person who has info on the origins of what family they came from.
                Best
                Shawn

                --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Shawn Sinclair <sofiatemplar@...> wrote:

                From: Shawn Sinclair <sofiatemplar@...>
                Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
                To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                Received: Monday, June 1, 2009, 1:42 PM

                Thanks Roy, does anyone have their Y-search #'s? And can I run their markers for myself and compare them with my project?
                Best,
                Shawn

                --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Roy <rdwelch@swbell. net> wrote:

                From: Roy <rdwelch@swbell. net>
                Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106- S21] R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
                To: R1b1c_U106-S21@ yahoogroups. com
                Received: Monday, June 1, 2009, 1:12 PM

                DYS 635 may not be a tested marker for some of us, me included, so I ran
                the lookup for just 23 of the 24 markers and there a lot of gd3 results
                that show up then.

                Roy

                Mike wrote:
                > Dienekes Pontikos, who posts on various genetic genealogy lists and has his own anthropology blog, had an interesting posting this morning on the Genealogy-DNA list at Rootsweb.com. It concerned test results from the remains of 6 men found in a 7th century grave in Bavaria. Based on results from 24 markers (no SNP testing), 4 of the men were R1b and the other 2 men were G2a. Three of the R1b men, perhaps all four, were closely related, with two possibly brothers.
                >
                > Here's a reply that I posted to Dienekes' original Rootsweb posting:
                >
                >
                > Dienekes posted on the list about ancient DNA ySTR results from medieval Germany. In his blog entry on this (at http://dienekes. blogspot. com/2009/ 06/y-chromosomes -from-7th- c-ergolding. html), he suggested that someone run the haplotypes through ysearch for close matches. So I did.
                >
                > Seeing that 3 of the 4 R1b men had DYS390=23 and DYS447=24, which is a common signature in R1b-L48, I was not surprised to see that many of the close matches in ysearch are R1b-L48. In the R1b-U106 Project, among the 162 members with an L48+ result, 55 have that signature, while only 1 of the 121 with an L48- result have that signature.
                >
                > Here's a link to the search results, with a GD of 3 for the 24 marker haplotype - http://tinyurl. com/mg2etp
                >
                > There were 13 matches at this level, one of which is a modal haplotype. Of the 12 actual haplotypes of an indvidual, 4 had R1b1b2a1a4 (R1b-L48) listed as their haplogroup and 2 had R1b1b2a1a (R1b-U106). There were 2 with R1b1b2a1b5 (R1b-L21). The remaining 4 matches just had R1b1b2 as the haplogroup. Looking at the haplotype comparison, 6 of the 12 have either DYS492=13 or 14, and the other 6 have DYS492=12.
                >
                > Since DYS492=13 is a stong indicator of R1b-U106 and subclades and DYS492=12 is a strong indicator of R1b-P1312 and subclades, it looks like there's a 50/50 chance for these medieval Germans to belong to either R1b subclade. However, given the DYS390=23 and DYS447=24 signature that was found in the remains, I think it's more likely that the remains belong to men who were R1b-U106 and more specifically R1b-L48.
                >
                > Mike Maddi
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                Roy



                The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free!


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              • Charles Moore
                Again, they are on the B9 (row 205 and 206) and B8 (row 66) Spreadsheets in the Files section of this yahoogroup, including their ysearch codes. They died
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 1, 2009
                  Again, they are on the B9 (row 205 and 206) and B8 (row 66) Spreadsheets in the Files section of this yahoogroup, including their ysearch codes. They died about AD 670, so they had no surnames.

                  --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Shawn Sinclair <sofiatemplar@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Mike, can you give me their Y-search ID's, is there a way of finding out who they were, and if they belonged to a particular family? Or any person who has info on the origins of what family they came from.
                  > Best
                  > Shawn
                  >
                  > --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Shawn Sinclair <sofiatemplar@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Shawn Sinclair <sofiatemplar@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
                  > To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                  > Received: Monday, June 1, 2009, 1:42 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Thanks Roy, does anyone have their Y-search #'s? And can I run their markers for myself and compare them with my project?
                  > Best,
                  > Shawn
                  >
                  > --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Roy <rdwelch@swbell. net> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Roy <rdwelch@swbell. net>
                  > Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106- S21] R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
                  > To: R1b1c_U106-S21@ yahoogroups. com
                  > Received: Monday, June 1, 2009, 1:12 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > DYS 635 may not be a tested marker for some of us, me included, so I ran
                  > the lookup for just 23 of the 24 markers and there a lot of gd3 results
                  > that show up then.
                  >
                  > Roy
                  >
                  > Mike wrote:
                  > > Dienekes Pontikos, who posts on various genetic genealogy lists and has his own anthropology blog, had an interesting posting this morning on the Genealogy-DNA list at Rootsweb.com. It concerned test results from the remains of 6 men found in a 7th century grave in Bavaria. Based on results from 24 markers (no SNP testing), 4 of the men were R1b and the other 2 men were G2a. Three of the R1b men, perhaps all four, were closely related, with two possibly brothers.
                  > >
                  > > Here's a reply that I posted to Dienekes' original Rootsweb posting:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Dienekes posted on the list about ancient DNA ySTR results from medieval Germany. In his blog entry on this (at http://dienekes. blogspot. com/2009/ 06/y-chromosomes -from-7th- c-ergolding. html), he suggested that someone run the haplotypes through ysearch for close matches. So I did.
                  > >
                  > > Seeing that 3 of the 4 R1b men had DYS390=23 and DYS447=24, which is a common signature in R1b-L48, I was not surprised to see that many of the close matches in ysearch are R1b-L48. In the R1b-U106 Project, among the 162 members with an L48+ result, 55 have that signature, while only 1 of the 121 with an L48- result have that signature.
                  > >
                  > > Here's a link to the search results, with a GD of 3 for the 24 marker haplotype - http://tinyurl. com/mg2etp
                  > >
                  > > There were 13 matches at this level, one of which is a modal haplotype. Of the 12 actual haplotypes of an indvidual, 4 had R1b1b2a1a4 (R1b-L48) listed as their haplogroup and 2 had R1b1b2a1a (R1b-U106). There were 2 with R1b1b2a1b5 (R1b-L21). The remaining 4 matches just had R1b1b2 as the haplogroup. Looking at the haplotype comparison, 6 of the 12 have either DYS492=13 or 14, and the other 6 have DYS492=12.
                  > >
                  > > Since DYS492=13 is a stong indicator of R1b-U106 and subclades and DYS492=12 is a strong indicator of R1b-P1312 and subclades, it looks like there's a 50/50 chance for these medieval Germans to belong to either R1b subclade. However, given the DYS390=23 and DYS447=24 signature that was found in the remains, I think it's more likely that the remains belong to men who were R1b-U106 and more specifically R1b-L48.
                  > >
                  > > Mike Maddi
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Roy
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________________________
                  > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
                  >
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                • Shawn Sinclair
                  Thank you. Best, Shawn ... From: Charles Moore Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: R1b-L48 among medieval Germans? To:
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 1, 2009
                    Thank you.
                    Best,
                    Shawn

                    --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Charles Moore <cdmo29@...> wrote:

                    From: Charles Moore <cdmo29@...>
                    Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
                    To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                    Received: Monday, June 1, 2009, 4:47 PM

                    Again, they are on the B9 (row 205 and 206) and B8 (row 66) Spreadsheets in the Files section of this yahoogroup, including their ysearch codes. They died about AD 670, so they had no surnames.

                    --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@ yahoogroups. com, Shawn Sinclair <sofiatemplar@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Mike, can you give me their Y-search ID's, is there a way of finding out who they were, and if they belonged to a particular family? Or any person who has info on the origins of what family they came from.
                    > Best
                    > Shawn
                    >
                    > --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Shawn Sinclair <sofiatemplar@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Shawn Sinclair <sofiatemplar@ ...>
                    > Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106- S21] R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
                    > To: R1b1c_U106-S21@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Received: Monday, June 1, 2009, 1:42 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks Roy, does anyone have their Y-search #'s? And can I run their markers for myself and compare them with my project?
                    > Best,
                    > Shawn
                    >
                    > --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Roy <rdwelch@swbell. net> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Roy <rdwelch@swbell. net>
                    > Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106- S21] R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
                    > To: R1b1c_U106-S21@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Received: Monday, June 1, 2009, 1:12 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > DYS 635 may not be a tested marker for some of us, me included, so I ran
                    > the lookup for just 23 of the 24 markers and there a lot of gd3 results
                    > that show up then.
                    >
                    > Roy
                    >
                    > Mike wrote:
                    > > Dienekes Pontikos, who posts on various genetic genealogy lists and has his own anthropology blog, had an interesting posting this morning on the Genealogy-DNA list at Rootsweb.com. It concerned test results from the remains of 6 men found in a 7th century grave in Bavaria. Based on results from 24 markers (no SNP testing), 4 of the men were R1b and the other 2 men were G2a. Three of the R1b men, perhaps all four, were closely related, with two possibly brothers.
                    > >
                    > > Here's a reply that I posted to Dienekes' original Rootsweb posting:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Dienekes posted on the list about ancient DNA ySTR results from medieval Germany. In his blog entry on this (at http://dienekes. blogspot. com/2009/ 06/y-chromosomes -from-7th- c-ergolding. html), he suggested that someone run the haplotypes through ysearch for close matches. So I did.
                    > >
                    > > Seeing that 3 of the 4 R1b men had DYS390=23 and DYS447=24, which is a common signature in R1b-L48, I was not surprised to see that many of the close matches in ysearch are R1b-L48. In the R1b-U106 Project, among the 162 members with an L48+ result, 55 have that signature, while only 1 of the 121 with an L48- result have that signature.
                    > >
                    > > Here's a link to the search results, with a GD of 3 for the 24 marker haplotype - http://tinyurl. com/mg2etp
                    > >
                    > > There were 13 matches at this level, one of which is a modal haplotype. Of the 12 actual haplotypes of an indvidual, 4 had R1b1b2a1a4 (R1b-L48) listed as their haplogroup and 2 had R1b1b2a1a (R1b-U106). There were 2 with R1b1b2a1b5 (R1b-L21). The remaining 4 matches just had R1b1b2 as the haplogroup. Looking at the haplotype comparison, 6 of the 12 have either DYS492=13 or 14, and the other 6 have DYS492=12.
                    > >
                    > > Since DYS492=13 is a stong indicator of R1b-U106 and subclades and DYS492=12 is a strong indicator of R1b-P1312 and subclades, it looks like there's a 50/50 chance for these medieval Germans to belong to either R1b subclade. However, given the DYS390=23 and DYS447=24 signature that was found in the remains, I think it's more likely that the remains belong to men who were R1b-U106 and more specifically R1b-L48.
                    > >
                    > > Mike Maddi
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Roy
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free!
                    >
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                    >
                    > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                    > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
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                  • Mike
                    I took a closer look at the study that tested the remains in the Ergolding grave. Based on a better designed search in the ysearch database, I m even more
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
                      I took a closer look at the study that tested the remains in the Ergolding grave. Based on a better designed search in the ysearch database, I'm even more firmly convinced that 3 of the 4 R1b remains in the grave that were tested are L48+. It seems that these three are possibly members of the null 425 cluster or the cluster with DYS492=14.

                      I've uploaded a spreadsheet (ergolding_comparison.xls) to the Files section which shows this. The haplotypes in the spreadsheet are those with a GD of 3 or less from the haplotype for one of the Ergolding results, which were put in ysearch by the scientists who wrote the study. (The ysearch ID is 6QUDR.)

                      Of the matches that have a result for DYS492, 37 have 13 or 14 and just 10 have 12. This makes it likely that the Ergolding remains are U106+. Of those with DYS492=13 or 14, there are 9 with DYS492=14 and 14 have null 425. Since the null 425 cluster and the DYS492=14 cluster are both L48+, 23 of the 37 close U106+ matches to the Ergolding remains are L48+.

                      It seems quite likely that the Ergolding R1b remains are L48+ and possibly either in the null 425 or the DYS492=14 cluster.

                      Mike Maddi

                      --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mtmaddi@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dienekes Pontikos, who posts on various genetic genealogy lists and has his own anthropology blog, had an interesting posting this morning on the Genealogy-DNA list at Rootsweb.com. It concerned test results from the remains of 6 men found in a 7th century grave in Bavaria. Based on results from 24 markers (no SNP testing), 4 of the men were R1b and the other 2 men were G2a. Three of the R1b men, perhaps all four, were closely related, with two possibly brothers.
                      >
                      > Here's a reply that I posted to Dienekes' original Rootsweb posting:
                      >
                      >
                      > Dienekes posted on the list about ancient DNA ySTR results from medieval Germany. In his blog entry on this (at http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/06/y-chromosomes-from-7th-c-ergolding.html), he suggested that someone run the haplotypes through ysearch for close matches. So I did.
                      >
                      > Seeing that 3 of the 4 R1b men had DYS390=23 and DYS447=24, which is a common signature in R1b-L48, I was not surprised to see that many of the close matches in ysearch are R1b-L48. In the R1b-U106 Project, among the 162 members with an L48+ result, 55 have that signature, while only 1 of the 121 with an L48- result have that signature.
                      >
                      > Here's a link to the search results, with a GD of 3 for the 24 marker haplotype - http://tinyurl.com/mg2etp
                      >
                      > There were 13 matches at this level, one of which is a modal haplotype. Of the 12 actual haplotypes of an indvidual, 4 had R1b1b2a1a4 (R1b-L48) listed as their haplogroup and 2 had R1b1b2a1a (R1b-U106). There were 2 with R1b1b2a1b5 (R1b-L21). The remaining 4 matches just had R1b1b2 as the haplogroup. Looking at the haplotype comparison, 6 of the 12 have either DYS492=13 or 14, and the other 6 have DYS492=12.
                      >
                      > Since DYS492=13 is a stong indicator of R1b-U106 and subclades and DYS492=12 is a strong indicator of R1b-P1312 and subclades, it looks like there's a 50/50 chance for these medieval Germans to belong to either R1b subclade. However, given the DYS390=23 and DYS447=24 signature that was found in the remains, I think it's more likely that the remains belong to men who were R1b-U106 and more specifically R1b-L48.
                      >
                      > Mike Maddi
                      >
                    • Charles Moore
                      Convincing. My B9 spreadsheet, where I added them, reflects the same conclusion, with particular emphasis on the null 425 likelihood. If I was null 425, I
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
                        Convincing. My B9 spreadsheet, where I added them, reflects the same conclusion, with particular emphasis on the null 425 likelihood. If I was null 425, I would try to find more about the way these guys were laid out. They died about 1,340 years ago, apparently sharing a type that is about twice that old. I think you should adopt them as, whatever, progenitors, something honorific, exalted, make a big deal out of it.

                        --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mtmaddi@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I took a closer look at the study that tested the remains in the Ergolding grave. Based on a better designed search in the ysearch database, I'm even more firmly convinced that 3 of the 4 R1b remains in the grave that were tested are L48+. It seems that these three are possibly members of the null 425 cluster or the cluster with DYS492=14.
                        >
                        > I've uploaded a spreadsheet (ergolding_comparison.xls) to the Files section which shows this. The haplotypes in the spreadsheet are those with a GD of 3 or less from the haplotype for one of the Ergolding results, which were put in ysearch by the scientists who wrote the study. (The ysearch ID is 6QUDR.)
                        >
                        > Of the matches that have a result for DYS492, 37 have 13 or 14 and just 10 have 12. This makes it likely that the Ergolding remains are U106+. Of those with DYS492=13 or 14, there are 9 with DYS492=14 and 14 have null 425. Since the null 425 cluster and the DYS492=14 cluster are both L48+, 23 of the 37 close U106+ matches to the Ergolding remains are L48+.
                        >
                        > It seems quite likely that the Ergolding R1b remains are L48+ and possibly either in the null 425 or the DYS492=14 cluster.
                        >
                        > Mike Maddi
                        >
                        > --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mtmaddi@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dienekes Pontikos, who posts on various genetic genealogy lists and has his own anthropology blog, had an interesting posting this morning on the Genealogy-DNA list at Rootsweb.com. It concerned test results from the remains of 6 men found in a 7th century grave in Bavaria. Based on results from 24 markers (no SNP testing), 4 of the men were R1b and the other 2 men were G2a. Three of the R1b men, perhaps all four, were closely related, with two possibly brothers.
                        > >
                        > > Here's a reply that I posted to Dienekes' original Rootsweb posting:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Dienekes posted on the list about ancient DNA ySTR results from medieval Germany. In his blog entry on this (at http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/06/y-chromosomes-from-7th-c-ergolding.html), he suggested that someone run the haplotypes through ysearch for close matches. So I did.
                        > >
                        > > Seeing that 3 of the 4 R1b men had DYS390=23 and DYS447=24, which is a common signature in R1b-L48, I was not surprised to see that many of the close matches in ysearch are R1b-L48. In the R1b-U106 Project, among the 162 members with an L48+ result, 55 have that signature, while only 1 of the 121 with an L48- result have that signature.
                        > >
                        > > Here's a link to the search results, with a GD of 3 for the 24 marker haplotype - http://tinyurl.com/mg2etp
                        > >
                        > > There were 13 matches at this level, one of which is a modal haplotype. Of the 12 actual haplotypes of an indvidual, 4 had R1b1b2a1a4 (R1b-L48) listed as their haplogroup and 2 had R1b1b2a1a (R1b-U106). There were 2 with R1b1b2a1b5 (R1b-L21). The remaining 4 matches just had R1b1b2 as the haplogroup. Looking at the haplotype comparison, 6 of the 12 have either DYS492=13 or 14, and the other 6 have DYS492=12.
                        > >
                        > > Since DYS492=13 is a stong indicator of R1b-U106 and subclades and DYS492=12 is a strong indicator of R1b-P1312 and subclades, it looks like there's a 50/50 chance for these medieval Germans to belong to either R1b subclade. However, given the DYS390=23 and DYS447=24 signature that was found in the remains, I think it's more likely that the remains belong to men who were R1b-U106 and more specifically R1b-L48.
                        > >
                        > > Mike Maddi
                        > >
                        >
                      • Michael Maddi
                        You ve inspired me to write to Daniel Vanek, the scientist associated with this study who is listed as the contact person. I ll ask if they have the capability
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 7, 2009
                          You've inspired me to write to Daniel Vanek, the scientist associated with this study who is listed as the contact person. I'll ask if they have the capability to test DYS425 and DYS492 and possibly test for L48. That would settle the questions I've raised about the Ergolding remains.

                          If they test DYS492 and it's 14, then they were likely part of the L48+/DYS492=14 cluster. If they have DYS492=13 and a null 425, then they were likely part of the L48+/null 425 cluster. If they could test for L48 and get a positive result, that would make it definite.

                          Mike

                          --- On Sun, 6/7/09, Charles Moore <cdmo29@...> wrote:

                          From: Charles Moore <cdmo29@...>
                          Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
                          To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 8:05 PM

                          Convincing.. My B9 spreadsheet, where I added them, reflects the same conclusion, with particular emphasis on the null 425 likelihood. If I was null 425, I would try to find more about the way these guys were laid out. They died about 1,340 years ago, apparently sharing a type that is about twice that old. I think you should adopt them as, whatever, progenitors, something honorific, exalted, make a big deal out of it.

                          --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike" <mtmaddi@... > wrote:
                          >
                          > I took a closer look at the study that tested the remains in the Ergolding grave. Based on a better designed search in the ysearch database, I'm even more firmly convinced that 3 of the 4 R1b remains in the grave that were tested are L48+. It seems that these three are possibly members of the null 425 cluster or the cluster with DYS492=14.
                          >
                          > I've uploaded a spreadsheet (ergolding_comparis on.xls) to the Files section which shows this. The haplotypes in the spreadsheet are those with a GD of 3 or less from the haplotype for one of the Ergolding results, which were put in ysearch by the scientists who wrote the study. (The ysearch ID is 6QUDR..)
                          >
                          > Of the matches that have a result for DYS492, 37 have 13 or 14 and just 10 have 12. This makes it likely that the Ergolding remains are U106+. Of those with DYS492=13 or 14, there are 9 with DYS492=14 and 14 have null 425. Since the null 425 cluster and the DYS492=14 cluster are both L48+, 23 of the 37 close U106+ matches to the Ergolding remains are L48+.
                          >
                          > It seems quite likely that the Ergolding R1b remains are L48+ and possibly either in the null 425 or the DYS492=14 cluster.
                          >
                          > Mike Maddi
                          >
                          > --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike" <mtmaddi@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Dienekes Pontikos, who posts on various genetic genealogy lists and has his own anthropology blog, had an interesting posting this morning on the Genealogy-DNA list at Rootsweb.com. It concerned test results from the remains of 6 men found in a 7th century grave in Bavaria. Based on results from 24 markers (no SNP testing), 4 of the men were R1b and the other 2 men were G2a. Three of the R1b men, perhaps all four, were closely related, with two possibly brothers.
                          > >
                          > > Here's a reply that I posted to Dienekes' original Rootsweb posting:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Dienekes posted on the list about ancient DNA ySTR results from medieval Germany. In his blog entry on this (at http://dienekes.. blogspot. com/2009/ 06/y-chromosomes -from-7th- c-ergolding. html), he suggested that someone run the haplotypes through ysearch for close matches. So I did.
                          > >
                          > > Seeing that 3 of the 4 R1b men had DYS390=23 and DYS447=24, which is a common signature in R1b-L48, I was not surprised to see that many of the close matches in ysearch are R1b-L48. In the R1b-U106 Project, among the 162 members with an L48+ result, 55 have that signature, while only 1 of the 121 with an L48- result have that signature.
                          > >
                          > > Here's a link to the search results, with a GD of 3 for the 24 marker haplotype - http://tinyurl. com/mg2etp
                          > >
                          > > There were 13 matches at this level, one of which is a modal haplotype. Of the 12 actual haplotypes of an indvidual, 4 had R1b1b2a1a4 (R1b-L48) listed as their haplogroup and 2 had R1b1b2a1a (R1b-U106). There were 2 with R1b1b2a1b5 (R1b-L21). The remaining 4 matches just had R1b1b2 as the haplogroup. Looking at the haplotype comparison, 6 of the 12 have either DYS492=13 or 14, and the other 6 have DYS492=12.
                          > >
                          > > Since DYS492=13 is a stong indicator of R1b-U106 and subclades and DYS492=12 is a strong indicator of R1b-P1312 and subclades, it looks like there's a 50/50 chance for these medieval Germans to belong to either R1b subclade. However, given the DYS390=23 and DYS447=24 signature that was found in the remains, I think it's more likely that the remains belong to men who were R1b-U106 and more specifically R1b-L48.
                          > >
                          > > Mike Maddi
                          > >
                          >


                        • Michael Maddi
                          I did write last night to Mr. Vanek, the contact person for the Ergolding study. I suggested that they SNP test the remains and also test for STR counts for
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
                            I did write last night to Mr. Vanek, the contact person for the Ergolding study. I suggested that they SNP test the remains and also test for STR counts for DYS492 and DYS425. I just received his reply:


                            Thank you very much for interesting information you sent me.

                             

                            I would really love to extend the study in a way you suggested (SNPs, DYS492 and 425, etc.) but unfortunately I have already returned the bones to Dr. Koch, we have no DNA extracts left, and additional testing would require additional funds. We also have to keep in mind the ethical issues. Even if I tend to call the bones “samples” we are still dealing with human remains.

                            My lab is not so muchinterested in spending valuable aDNA extracts on SNPs as we perform our studies mainly towards identification of individuals and not just Y-chromosome SNP traits.

                            You are also absolutely right that more Y-chromosome loci would be beneficial but please keep in mind that we first have to design the primers for new DYS loci with amplicons as short as possible. Once we have the new primers for additional loci we have to multiplex everything and only after we have this done we can start with aDNA testing. All this would unfortunately cost a lot of money I do not have at this moment.



                            It looks like we genetic genealogists will have to foot the bill ourselves, testing ourselves, to help  scientists get better resolution of the yDNA haplogroup tree and a better understanding of population genetics.


                            Mike



                            --- On Sun, 6/7/09, Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@...> wrote:

                            From: Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@...>
                            Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
                            To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 8:26 PM

                            You've inspired me to write to Daniel Vanek, the scientist associated with this study who is listed as the contact person. I'll ask if they have the capability to test DYS425 and DYS492 and possibly test for L48. That would settle the questions I've raised about the Ergolding remains.

                            If they test DYS492 and it's 14, then they were likely part of the L48+/DYS492= 14 cluster. If they have DYS492=13 and a null 425, then they were likely part of the L48+/null 425 cluster. If they could test for L48 and get a positive result, that would make it definite.

                            Mike

                            _

                          • Karen-Wayne Kauffman
                            The learning here is that the researchers considering/performing these types of investigations should be made aware of the rapid changes in the definitions of
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
                              The learning here is that the researchers considering/performing these types of investigations should be made aware of the rapid changes in the definitions of haplogroups.  Where technically feasible the analysis of ancient remains should occur to a resolution that would provide for a better match between haplogroup and the speciman's age.  In this case getting down to at least the L48 SNP timeframe would have more impact in terms of assigning a meaningful haplogroup and setting the stage for future anthropological work.  How much did this Bavarian study cost?

                              Oh well.  Time to win the lottery to establish a fund for further analyis efforts.

                              - Wayne


                              From: Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@...>
                              To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 11:00:03 AM
                              Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?

                              I did write last night to Mr. Vanek, the contact person for the Ergolding study. I suggested that they SNP test the remains and also test for STR counts for DYS492 and DYS425. I just received his reply:


                              Thank you very much for interesting information you sent me.

                               

                              I would really love to extend the study in a way you suggested (SNPs, DYS492 and 425, etc.) but unfortunately I have already returned the bones to Dr. Koch, we have no DNA extracts left, and additional testing would require additional funds. We also have to keep in mind the ethical issues. Even if I tend to call the bones “samples” we are still dealing with human remains.

                              My lab is not so muchinterested in spending valuable aDNA extracts on SNPs as we perform our studies mainly towards identification of individuals and not just Y-chromosome SNP traits.

                              You are also absolutely right that more Y-chromosome loci would be beneficial but please keep in mind that we first have to design the primers for new DYS loci with amplicons as short as possible. Once we have the new primers for additional loci we have to multiplex everything and only after we have this done we can start with aDNA testing. All this would unfortunately cost a lot of money I do not have at this moment.



                              It looks like we genetic genealogists will have to foot the bill ourselves, testing ourselves, to help  scientists get better resolution of the yDNA haplogroup tree and a better understanding of population genetics.


                              Mike



                              --- On Sun, 6/7/09, Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@yahoo. com> wrote:

                              From: Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@yahoo. com>
                              Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106- S21] Re: R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
                              To: R1b1c_U106-S21@ yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 8:26 PM

                              You've inspired me to write to Daniel Vanek, the scientist associated with this study who is listed as the contact person. I'll ask if they have the capability to test DYS425 and DYS492 and possibly test for L48. That would settle the questions I've raised about the Ergolding remains.

                              If they test DYS492 and it's 14, then they were likely part of the L48+/DYS492= 14 cluster. If they have DYS492=13 and a null 425, then they were likely part of the L48+/null 425 cluster. If they could test for L48 and get a positive result, that would make it definite.

                              Mike

                              _

                            • Charles Moore
                              I m all for that Wayne!
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 8, 2009
                                I'm all for that Wayne!

                                --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Karen-Wayne Kauffman <wkauffman@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > The learning here is that the researchers considering/performing these types of investigations should be made aware of the rapid changes in the definitions of haplogroups. Where technically feasible the analysis of ancient remains should occur to a resolution that would provide for a better match between haplogroup and the speciman's age. In this case getting down to at least the L48 SNP timeframe would have more impact in terms of assigning a meaningful haplogroup and setting the stage for future anthropological work. How much did this Bavarian study cost?
                                >
                                > Oh well. Time to win the lottery to establish a fund for further analyis efforts.
                                >
                                > - Wayne
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@...>
                                > To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 11:00:03 AM
                                > Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I did write last night to Mr. Vanek, the contact person for the Ergolding study. I suggested that they SNP test the remains and also test for STR counts for DYS492 and DYS425. I just received his reply:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Thank you very much for interesting information you sent me.
                                >
                                > I would really love to extend the study in a way you suggested (SNPs,
                                > DYS492 and 425, etc.) but unfortunately I have already returned the bones to Dr.
                                > Koch, we have no DNA extracts left, and additional testing would require
                                > additional funds. We also have to keep in mind the ethical issues. Even if I
                                > tend to call the bones “samples” we are still dealing with human
                                > remains.
                                > My lab is not so muchinterested in spending valuable aDNA
                                > extracts on SNPs as we perform our studies mainly towards identification of
                                > individuals and not just Y-chromosome SNP traits.
                                > You are also absolutely right that more Y-chromosome loci would
                                > be beneficial but please keep in mind that we first have to design the primers
                                > for new DYS loci with amplicons as short as possible. Once we have the new
                                > primers for additional loci we have to multiplex everything and only after we
                                > have this done we can start with aDNA testing. All this would unfortunately cost
                                > a lot of money I do not have at this moment.
                                >
                                >
                                > It looks like we genetic genealogists will have to foot the bill ourselves, testing ourselves, to help scientists get better resolution of the yDNA haplogroup tree and a better understanding of population genetics.
                                >
                                > Mike
                                >
                                >
                                > --- On Sun, 6/7/09, Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > From: Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@yahoo. com>
                                > Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106- S21] Re: R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
                                > To: R1b1c_U106-S21@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 8:26 PM
                                >
                                >
                                > You've inspired me to write to Daniel Vanek, the scientist associated with this study who is listed as the contact person. I'll ask if they have the capability to test DYS425 and DYS492 and possibly test for L48. That would settle the questions I've raised about the Ergolding remains.
                                >
                                > If they test DYS492 and it's 14, then they were likely part of the L48+/DYS492= 14 cluster. If they have DYS492=13 and a null 425, then they were likely part of the L48+/null 425 cluster. If they could test for L48 and get a positive result, that would make it definite.
                                >
                                > Mike
                                >
                                >
                                > _
                                >
                              • ospicton
                                Charles I also feel that the L47 group may begin somewhere other than the UK but not as far North as Denmark. I do feel that L48 may begin as far North as
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jun 9, 2009
                                  Charles
                                  I also feel that the L47 group may begin somewhere other than the UK but not as far North as Denmark. I do feel that L48 may begin as far North as Denmark. I think that L46 may have been along the Rhine, in Southern Germany or Flanders.

                                  I think most of L47 arrived in UK no earlier than 1000 years ago but not as a group, but from various places in Continental Europe (this is only a feeling).

                                  I do have a theory of Picton origin going back to the Continent. This is why I say the L47 came from the Continent. I can trace my ancestors back to a Philip de Picton who lived in 1260 in Pembrokeshire, Wales. I been unable to trace my ancestors between 1108 and 1260 but the name Picton has existed since about 1108 in Pembrokeshire, Wales. It is felt that the first Picton arrived in Pembrokeshire, Wales with Wizo the Fleming (a warlord from Flanders) in about 1108). The knights of Wizo the Fleming were planted on estates for FEES, one of which was Picton. Old documentation says that the Picton ancestors were foreigners but it does not stated from where. We do not know where they came from (maybe from Flanders). We hope the DNA will show us.

                                  I have stood on a hill and looked down at the Rhine. I have stood on a hill and looked down at the Danube as it snaked its way along. Then think of the trees that must have covered the land along these rivers. Now there are big boats that travel these rivers but long ago only a lonely canoe. I like to think that thousands of years ago my ancestors may have traveled these waters and stood at the exact spot I stood.
                                  Blessings,
                                  Owen
                                • Charles Moore
                                  The idea of your ancestors coming from Flanders makes perfect sense. As to L47, the question amounts to the dating of the origin of L47, and whether that date
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 9, 2009
                                    The idea of your ancestors coming from Flanders makes perfect sense. As to L47, the question amounts to the dating of the origin of L47, and whether that date came before or after the major movement into Britain. If it was significantly before, then we should find more L47s scattered about the northern area along the Baltic coast. And maybe we will.

                                    Charles

                                    --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, "ospicton" <ospicton@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Charles
                                    > I also feel that the L47 group may begin somewhere other than the UK but not as far North as Denmark. I do feel that L48 may begin as far North as Denmark. I think that L46 may have been along the Rhine, in Southern Germany or Flanders.
                                    >
                                    > I think most of L47 arrived in UK no earlier than 1000 years ago but not as a group, but from various places in Continental Europe (this is only a feeling).
                                    >
                                    > I do have a theory of Picton origin going back to the Continent. This is why I say the L47 came from the Continent. I can trace my ancestors back to a Philip de Picton who lived in 1260 in Pembrokeshire, Wales. I been unable to trace my ancestors between 1108 and 1260 but the name Picton has existed since about 1108 in Pembrokeshire, Wales. It is felt that the first Picton arrived in Pembrokeshire, Wales with Wizo the Fleming (a warlord from Flanders) in about 1108). The knights of Wizo the Fleming were planted on estates for FEES, one of which was Picton. Old documentation says that the Picton ancestors were foreigners but it does not stated from where. We do not know where they came from (maybe from Flanders). We hope the DNA will show us.
                                    >
                                    > I have stood on a hill and looked down at the Rhine. I have stood on a hill and looked down at the Danube as it snaked its way along. Then think of the trees that must have covered the land along these rivers. Now there are big boats that travel these rivers but long ago only a lonely canoe. I like to think that thousands of years ago my ancestors may have traveled these waters and stood at the exact spot I stood.
                                    > Blessings,
                                    > Owen
                                    >
                                  • brian swann
                                    Dear Charles, Owen My two-penny worth on all this is that there has been quite a lot done on migration patterns of the Normans settling into Wales - but, of
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jun 9, 2009
                                      Message
                                      Dear Charles, Owen
                                       
                                      My two-penny worth on all this is that there has been quite a lot done on migration patterns of the Normans settling into Wales - but, of course, it does not lend itself to a couple of paragraphs on a Bulletin Board posting.  It is quite a complex subject and quite a lot has been written about it.  Likewise on the subject of Knight's Fees and what that entailed at this and later times.  But let me quote two paragraphs from John Davies, A History of Wales, 2nd Edition, 2007, pp. 110-111.
                                       
                                      The knights' fees were organised on a manorial basis, a system which may not have differed greatly from that of the maenor which had existed in parts of Wales before the coming of the Normans.  The earliest records concerning the knights' fees are two hundred years later than the reign of Henry I (1100-1135); they show that most of the tenants of the manors in the Vale of Glamorgan bore English names, and they contain no suggestion that the tenants were recent incomers.  It is clear therefore that English peasants, as well as Norman knights had migrated to Wales, not only to the Vale of Glamorgan but also to the Gower peninsula, Pembroke and Gwent Is Coed.  As the history of Ireland amply proves, a dense settlement of peasants is always a more effective way of consolidating conquest than a thin layer of gentry. The ethnic nature of the most fertile areas of the southern fringes of Wales was changed by immigrants whom the Welsh were unable fully to assimilate.
                                       
                                      Of these colonizations, the only one referred to in contemporary sources is that mentioned by Brut y Tywysogyon (Chronicles of the Princes) in its entry for 1105.  The Brut states that in that year Henry I allowed a colony of Flemings to settle in the cantrefi (approximately equivalent to later-day Hundreds) of Rhos and Daugleddau in southern Dyfed (Pembrokeshire).  According to Giraldus Cambrensis, they received the special patronage of the crown and although the Welsh sought on several occasions to expel them, the character of the region settled by them was transformed to such an extent that only seven of the almost fifty parishes of the two cantrefi bear Welsh names.
                                       
                                      I hope we will gradually get a better sense of how these links may go across the Channel - the two obvious places are to the Low Countries and to Normandy.
                                       
                                      I hope also that we may stand a chance of getting a real UK surname expert, such as George Redmonds, to come to the next WDYTYA.  Rumour has it that he is collaborating with Mark Jobling's group at Leicester University on this subject.  I suspect that these migrations were step-wise processes for the bulk of the migrants involved.
                                       
                                      Best regards
                                       
                                      Brian
                                       
                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Moore
                                      Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 8:02 PM
                                      To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?

                                      The idea of your ancestors coming from Flanders makes perfect sense. As to L47, the question amounts to the dating of the origin of L47, and whether that date came before or after the major movement into Britain. If it was significantly before, then we should find more L47s scattered about the northern area along the Baltic coast. And maybe we will.

                                      Charles

                                      --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@ yahoogroups. com, "ospicton" <ospicton@.. .> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Charles
                                      > I also feel that the L47 group may begin somewhere other than the UK but not as far North as Denmark. I do feel that L48 may begin as far North as Denmark. I think that L46 may have been along the Rhine, in Southern Germany or Flanders.
                                      >
                                      > I think most of L47 arrived in UK no earlier than 1000 years ago but not as a group, but from various places in Continental Europe (this is only a feeling).
                                      >
                                      > I do have a theory of Picton origin going back to the Continent. This is why I say the L47 came from the Continent. I can trace my ancestors back to a Philip de Picton who lived in 1260 in Pembrokeshire, Wales. I been unable to trace my ancestors between 1108 and 1260 but the name Picton has existed since about 1108 in Pembrokeshire, Wales. It is felt that the first Picton arrived in Pembrokeshire, Wales with Wizo the Fleming (a warlord from Flanders) in about 1108). The knights of Wizo the Fleming were planted on estates for FEES, one of which was Picton. Old documentation says that the Picton ancestors were foreigners but it does not stated from where. We do not know where they came from (maybe from Flanders). We hope the DNA will show us.
                                      >
                                      > I have stood on a hill and looked down at the Rhine. I have stood on a hill and looked down at the Danube as it snaked its way along. Then think of the trees that must have covered the land along these rivers. Now there are big boats that travel these rivers but long ago only a lonely canoe. I like to think that thousands of years ago my ancestors may have traveled these waters and stood at the exact spot I stood.
                                      > Blessings,
                                      > Owen
                                      >

                                    • Charles Moore
                                      Welcome home Brian. Be aware that FTDNA has an incredible summer sale until the 24th of this month only for brand new participants for a combined Y 37 marker
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jun 9, 2009
                                        Welcome home Brian. Be aware that FTDNA has an incredible summer sale until the 24th of this month only for brand new participants for a combined Y 37 marker and basic mtDNA test for $119, 52% off the regular price, for surname project members. So surname or geographic project Admins who admit brand new members (not the U106 Project), should round up prospects or re-contact old ones now. This sale will have the effect of making the FTDNA databases larger, so we can steal more data.

                                        U106 members should let their friends know that now is the moment to join their respective surname projects, or geographic projects in their origin locations who admit new members (again, not the U106 project), at a huge discount, and get both types of DNA testing. Tell them to scroll down to the $119 item called "Combined Y and mtDNA" or "Y 37 marker and mtDNA", within any surname project on the FTDNA site.

                                        If you need to consult more about it, email me directly.

                                        Charles


                                        --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, "brian swann" <bps@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Dear Charles, Owen
                                        >
                                        > My two-penny worth on all this is that there has been quite a lot done
                                        > on migration patterns of the Normans settling into Wales - but, of
                                        > course, it does not lend itself to a couple of paragraphs on a Bulletin
                                        > Board posting. It is quite a complex subject and quite a lot has been
                                        > written about it. Likewise on the subject of Knight's Fees and what
                                        > that entailed at this and later times. But let me quote two paragraphs
                                        > from John Davies, A History of Wales, 2nd Edition, 2007, pp. 110-111.
                                        >
                                        > The knights' fees were organised on a manorial basis, a system which may
                                        > not have differed greatly from that of the maenor which had existed in
                                        > parts of Wales before the coming of the Normans. The earliest records
                                        > concerning the knights' fees are two hundred years later than the reign
                                        > of Henry I (1100-1135); they show that most of the tenants of the manors
                                        > in the Vale of Glamorgan bore English names, and they contain no
                                        > suggestion that the tenants were recent incomers. It is clear therefore
                                        > that English peasants, as well as Norman knights had migrated to Wales,
                                        > not only to the Vale of Glamorgan but also to the Gower peninsula,
                                        > Pembroke and Gwent Is Coed. As the history of Ireland amply proves, a
                                        > dense settlement of peasants is always a more effective way of
                                        > consolidating conquest than a thin layer of gentry. The ethnic nature of
                                        > the most fertile areas of the southern fringes of Wales was changed by
                                        > immigrants whom the Welsh were unable fully to assimilate.
                                        >
                                        > Of these colonizations, the only one referred to in contemporary sources
                                        > is that mentioned by Brut y Tywysogyon (Chronicles of the Princes) in
                                        > its entry for 1105. The Brut states that in that year Henry I allowed a
                                        > colony of Flemings to settle in the cantrefi (approximately equivalent
                                        > to later-day Hundreds) of Rhos and Daugleddau in southern Dyfed
                                        > (Pembrokeshire). According to Giraldus Cambrensis, they received the
                                        > special patronage of the crown and although the Welsh sought on several
                                        > occasions to expel them, the character of the region settled by them was
                                        > transformed to such an extent that only seven of the almost fifty
                                        > parishes of the two cantrefi bear Welsh names.
                                        >
                                        > I hope we will gradually get a better sense of how these links may go
                                        > across the Channel - the two obvious places are to the Low Countries and
                                        > to Normandy.
                                        >
                                        > I hope also that we may stand a chance of getting a real UK surname
                                        > expert, such as George Redmonds, to come to the next WDYTYA. Rumour has
                                        > it that he is collaborating with Mark Jobling's group at Leicester
                                        > University on this subject. I suspect that these migrations were
                                        > step-wise processes for the bulk of the migrants involved.
                                        >
                                        > Best regards
                                        >
                                        > Brian
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                                        > [mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Moore
                                        > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 8:02 PM
                                        > To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > The idea of your ancestors coming from Flanders makes perfect sense. As
                                        > to L47, the question amounts to the dating of the origin of L47, and
                                        > whether that date came before or after the major movement into Britain.
                                        > If it was significantly before, then we should find more L47s scattered
                                        > about the northern area along the Baltic coast. And maybe we will.
                                        >
                                        > Charles
                                        >
                                        > --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@ <mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com, "ospicton" <ospicton@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Charles
                                        > > I also feel that the L47 group may begin somewhere other than the UK
                                        > but not as far North as Denmark. I do feel that L48 may begin as far
                                        > North as Denmark. I think that L46 may have been along the Rhine, in
                                        > Southern Germany or Flanders.
                                        > >
                                        > > I think most of L47 arrived in UK no earlier than 1000 years ago but
                                        > not as a group, but from various places in Continental Europe (this is
                                        > only a feeling).
                                        > >
                                        > > I do have a theory of Picton origin going back to the Continent. This
                                        > is why I say the L47 came from the Continent. I can trace my ancestors
                                        > back to a Philip de Picton who lived in 1260 in Pembrokeshire, Wales. I
                                        > been unable to trace my ancestors between 1108 and 1260 but the name
                                        > Picton has existed since about 1108 in Pembrokeshire, Wales. It is felt
                                        > that the first Picton arrived in Pembrokeshire, Wales with Wizo the
                                        > Fleming (a warlord from Flanders) in about 1108). The knights of Wizo
                                        > the Fleming were planted on estates for FEES, one of which was Picton.
                                        > Old documentation says that the Picton ancestors were foreigners but it
                                        > does not stated from where. We do not know where they came from (maybe
                                        > from Flanders). We hope the DNA will show us.
                                        > >
                                        > > I have stood on a hill and looked down at the Rhine. I have stood on a
                                        > hill and looked down at the Danube as it snaked its way along. Then
                                        > think of the trees that must have covered the land along these rivers.
                                        > Now there are big boats that travel these rivers but long ago only a
                                        > lonely canoe. I like to think that thousands of years ago my ancestors
                                        > may have traveled these waters and stood at the exact spot I stood.
                                        > > Blessings,
                                        > > Owen
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Michael Maddi
                                        I m forwarding this partial e-mail thread from 2009 in our Yahoogroup. It concerns the posting today by Iain about the Ergolding knights and their possible
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Feb 3, 2015
                                          I'm forwarding this partial e-mail thread from 2009 in our Yahoogroup. It concerns the posting today by Iain about the Ergolding knights and their possible Z326+ status.

                                          I had noted below at the time that I thought that these remains from the knights could have been either Z8+ (DYS492=14) or Z326+. Of course, since then we have new SNPs that define these clusters/subclades, S6881 in the case of "Z8+ (DYS492=14)" and CTS2509 in the case of Z326. It is the case that CTS2509 is much more continental than S6881; I'm not even sure if any S6881+ have been found with continental ancestry. CTS2509 is found in Switzerland and northern Italy, not far from the Ergolding burial site.

                                          If Iain turns out to be correct (although we'll probably never know, since academics don't test that deeply on the tree), I'd love to know if these knights are not only CTS2509+, but also FGC13492+. FGC13492 is a SNP from my Big Y singletons list and another project member with northern Italian ancestry has tested FGC13492+ at YSEQ, establishing a new subclade of CTS2509.

                                          Mike Maddi

                                          ----- Forwarded Message -----
                                          From: Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@...>
                                          To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2009 8:26 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?

                                          You've inspired me to write to Daniel Vanek, the scientist associated with this study who is listed as the contact person. I'll ask if they have the capability to test DYS425 and DYS492 and possibly test for L48. That would settle the questions I've raised about the Ergolding remains.

                                          If they test DYS492 and it's 14, then they were likely part of the L48+/DYS492= 14 cluster. If they have DYS492=13 and a null 425, then they were likely part of the L48+/null 425 cluster. If they could test for L48 and get a positive result, that would make it definite.

                                          Mike

                                          --- On Sun, 6/7/09, Charles Moore <cdmo29@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                          From: Charles Moore <cdmo29@yahoo. com>
                                          Subject: [R1b1c_U106- S21] Re: R1b-L48 among medieval Germans?
                                          To: R1b1c_U106-S21@ yahoogroups. com
                                          Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 8:05 PM

                                          Convincing.. My B9 spreadsheet, where I added them, reflects the same conclusion, with particular emphasis on the null 425 likelihood. If I was null 425, I would try to find more about the way these guys were laid out. They died about 1,340 years ago, apparently sharing a type that is about twice that old. I think you should adopt them as, whatever, progenitors, something honorific, exalted, make a big deal out of it.

                                          --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike" <mtmaddi@... > wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I took a closer look at the study that tested the remains in the Ergolding grave. Based on a better designed search in the ysearch database, I'm even more firmly convinced that 3 of the 4 R1b remains in the grave that were tested are L48+. It seems that these three are possibly members of the null 425 cluster or the cluster with DYS492=14.
                                          >
                                          > I've uploaded a spreadsheet (ergolding_comparis on.xls) to the Files section which shows this. The haplotypes in the spreadsheet are those with a GD of 3 or less from the haplotype for one of the Ergolding results, which were put in ysearch by the scientists who wrote the study. (The ysearch ID is 6QUDR..)
                                          >
                                          > Of the matches that have a result for DYS492, 37 have 13 or 14 and just 10 have 12. This makes it likely that the Ergolding remains are U106+. Of those with DYS492=13 or 14, there are 9 with DYS492=14 and 14 have null 425. Since the null 425 cluster and the DYS492=14 cluster are both L48+, 23 of the 37 close U106+ matches to the Ergolding remains are L48+.
                                          >
                                          > It seems quite likely that the Ergolding R1b remains are L48+ and possibly either in the null 425 or the DYS492=14 cluster.
                                          >
                                          > Mike Maddi
                                          >
                                          > --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@ yahoogroups. com, "Mike" <mtmaddi@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Dienekes Pontikos, who posts on various genetic genealogy lists and has his own anthropology blog, had an interesting posting this morning on the Genealogy-DNA list at Rootsweb.com. It concerned test results from the remains of 6 men found in a 7th century grave in Bavaria. Based on results from 24 markers (no SNP testing), 4 of the men were R1b and the other 2 men were G2a. Three of the R1b men, perhaps all four, were closely related, with two possibly brothers.
                                          > >
                                          > > Here's a reply that I posted to Dienekes' original Rootsweb posting:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Dienekes posted on the list about ancient DNA ySTR results from medieval Germany. In his blog entry on this (at http://dienekes. . blogspot. com/2009/ 06/y-chromosomes -from-7th- c-ergolding. html), he suggested that someone run the haplotypes through ysearch for close matches. So I did.
                                          > >
                                          > > Seeing that 3 of the 4 R1b men had DYS390=23 and DYS447=24, which is a common signature in R1b-L48, I was not surprised to see that many of the close matches in ysearch are R1b-L48. In the R1b-U106 Project, among the 162 members with an L48+ result, 55 have that signature, while only 1 of the 121 with an L48- result have that signature.
                                          > >
                                          > > Here's a link to the search results, with a GD of 3 for the 24 marker haplotype - http://tinyurl. com/mg2etp
                                          > >
                                          > > There were 13 matches at this level, one of which is a modal haplotype. Of the 12 actual haplotypes of an indvidual, 4 had R1b1b2a1a4 (R1b-L48) listed as their haplogroup and 2 had R1b1b2a1a (R1b-U106). There were 2 with R1b1b2a1b5 (R1b-L21). The remaining 4 matches just had R1b1b2 as the haplogroup. Looking at the haplotype comparison, 6 of the 12 have either DYS492=13 or 14, and the other 6 have DYS492=12.
                                          > >
                                          > > Since DYS492=13 is a stong indicator of R1b-U106 and subclades and DYS492=12 is a strong indicator of R1b-P1312 and subclades, it looks like there's a 50/50 chance for these medieval Germans to belong to either R1b subclade. However, given the DYS390=23 and DYS447=24 signature that was found in the remains, I think it's more likely that the remains belong to men who were R1b-U106 and more specifically R1b-L48.
                                          > >
                                          > > Mike Maddi
                                          > >
                                          >




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