Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: British name analysis?
- I agree. Many surnames have origins other than I suspect,
even from different countries than I expect.
Many (most?) surnames seem to morph in many different ways.
Surnames with different spellings often have the same origins.
This is the fascinating thing about surnames. Sometimes
the different forms or spellings may help in pinpointing geographic
locations, sometimes not.
In America this confusion is exemplified at immigration and censuses when
the recorder simply wrote the name down as he or she heard it or how
it sounded to him or her. Depending on the circumstances, sometimes
the new spelling and/or new surname stuck.
On Thu, 8/1/13, Michele Rogers <mm_rogers@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: British name analysis?
To: "R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com" <R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2013, 5:46 PM
I tend to agree with Ian
on the difficulty of divining the original name from its
English or American, or Aussie descendant. Recently I posted
about a name that appears fairly often in my autosomal
matches "Grizzle, and Grizzel". It turns out
the name was originally Grieswald. Had a distant cousin not
learned this through research, I doubt anyone could have
figured it out just by examining the different forms of
"Grizzle". Kind of sounds vaguely Germanic or
French - and someone at one of the sites that sells a family
crest for every name has probably made up a plausible
sounding (but completely erroneous) history for
to the source of a name morphed and transliterated by
English speakers over centuries is going to be a real
challenge. Its rather like the party game, where you start
with a simple word or phrase passed from one person to
another. Almost invariably - when it gets to the last person
in the chain, it has changed beyond recognition.
From: Iain McDonald
Thursday, August 1, 2013 10:19 AM
[R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: British name analysis?
It's not just the north of
Scotland that had little mixing of populations. Even in
turbulent times, there is relatively little population
shift. The Industrial Revolution has brought about some of
the greatest population shifts in history, yet 42 out of my
64 gggg-grandparents come from Northumberland (7 come from
neighbouring Durham, 8 from north-east Scotland, 4 from
elsewhere in Scotland and 2 from Lancashire). But perhaps
this makes a bigger point: my surname comes from
Aberdeenshire. Localising genetics geographically works
better with autosomal DNA than Y-DNA, hence the PoBI
Y-DNA, we have the
advantage that surnames are usually linked
to Y-DNA and often trace locality much further back than
paper trails can. Nowhere is this more true than the
innumerable testers from the USA, whose paper trails do not
cross the Atlantic. For names like Smith, Jones (and indeed
McDonald), the lack of localisation means using these to try
to determine geographical or ethnic origins is pretty much
useless. However, let me give you a different example. My
closest Y-DNA matches are Hadden, Clapp, Bess and Lawrence.
Only the Haddens know where in the UK they are from (also
Aberdeen). But the other surnames localise respectively in
northern Devon, southern Devon, and
south-central/south-eastern England. I've used this to
infer a probable migration of my ancestors from Devon to
Aberdeenshire in medieval times.
think surname analysis of very young clusters like this may
have something to offer us, geographically speaking. We may
tease a Norman connection out of some groups. Beyond that,
it may get a bit vague separating Dane from Saxon and
Briton, but we don't know unless we try. How this kind
of project is best approached is something I don't
really have a good feeling for, but I think it might be
- Then there are those "non-paternity" events that mess with names. My Boyd's seem to be an example of just such an event or events.Nancy