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Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Nordic origins?

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  • Piero Sinclair
    I agree that the Sinclairs of Caithness and the Northern Isles ,who are overwhelmingly Z346*, descend from the Sinclairs of Roslin, and no other plausible
    Message 1 of 36 , Jul 1, 2013
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      I agree that the Sinclairs of Caithness and the Northern Isles ,who are overwhelmingly Z346*, descend from the Sinclairs of Roslin, and no other plausible scenario fits the data, so as far as I'm concerned it's a done deal.  
      Re matches to the Sinclairs there are in fact more than you think.  There are a group of Kincaids, one or two of which are closer to the modal Z346* Sinclair than some Z346* Sinclairs.  In addition to the Z346*s listed in the FTDNA U106 list and on U106 files, there are highly probable Z346* members on YSearch.  There are also very likely Z346*s who have not tested in the U106 group.
      I want in the near future to have a proper look at this whole group (tested and putative Z346*).  My impression is that many of them who have their ancestors in the British Isles may go back to Normandy.  I've already looked at the Roslin Sinclairs and wrote my piece on them. It argues that they did come from Normandy and I explained exactly how, which differed from the mythical account which also places them in Normandy.  So whether you go by the traditional view or by an examination of the primary sources, the Z346* Sinclairs are in my opinion definitely from Normandy, barring an NPE in just the just three generations between the first Sinclair of Roslin and the first Sinclair Earl of Orkney.  My updated piece is at the following link but the updates are not significant so it's not worth reading again.


      According to this account the Sinclairs of Roslin go back to Osmond de Centville, Vicomte de Vernon and Seigneur de Reviers, and his father Theudebert.  It's interesting that on YSearch and U106 together there are four Lassaters (forms: Lassater, Lassiter, Laster) all showing the distinctive features of Z346*.  There are two Lestre individuals mentioned in the early 1100s in West Country England who were closely connected to the Vernon/Reviers family (also descendants of Osmond de Centville).  The Vernon/Reviers family were the Earls of Devon (in the West Country). The Vernons and Reviers were tenants-in-chief of the Lestres in Normandy. Lestre if pronounced in the old West Country way would sound something like Laster with a strong emphasis on the s.  Some people think Lassiter derives from Leicester but I think it more likely that it is from Lestre, which is a place in the Cotentin, Normandy, where Osmond de Centville and his heirs owned much land.  There appears to be  a cluster of Z346* who have ancestors in Somerset (West country England). Some of the Z346* Kincaid's closest matches are from Somerset and three YSearch putative Z346*s come from there.  I have a theory about this which can wait (alternative to them being descended from the Earls of Devon), and it also fits in with the above scenario.
      So I hope to have a proper look at this group, in particular to examine their Norman credentials.


       


        


      On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 11:51 PM, sofiatemplar <sofiatemplar@...> wrote:
       

      I have looked over various sites in regards to the Sinclair surname, and all seem to quote one source, Snorri and his saga's (myths) as to where the Sinclair origin come from, and they state that they come from Rollo, yet there is no proof of this.
      http://www.clansinclair.org/history.htm

      With their SNP matches they have very little other matches, Commin is one, but was that an NPE or rather a relation from Normandy, or this just because no other surnames have done the SNP tests?

      That would account for only 9 names listed, I believe there will be many more SNP matches once they test, further broadening their spector.

      I do not believe that the Sinclair origins is from Finnland as their own clan sites have suggested, but from other authors, they might well stem from a family already in France before the invasion by Rollo and his merry men, and simply did what others in the region did to survive with land and family intact, and that was to marry in, one family for certain who did this is the Montgomery's, or Mount Gomer family in Normandy and later added themselves to read " related" to the new Ducal House.

      Some disagree and state they the Sinclairs come from Rollo, yet no evidence to date other than a book written in the 18th cent says so, DNA is the key factor, and the U106 Sinclairs of Caithness are looking more and more like the original Sinclairs who came from rosslyn and then up to Caithness, and I won't use percentiles to show proablabilty. I'll just say that they are the original line from Normandy, and as it stands now they are following a trend in the docuementry evidence of their origin, and that is from a Germanic/Frankish origin.


    • heron83000
      Only if you like fish. Philippe ... been, at ... was ... they ... taking ... countryside and ... times. ... survive. ... inhabitants ... England. ... towns in
      Message 36 of 36 , Jul 7, 2013
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        Only if you like fish.

        Philippe

        --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Piero Sinclair wrote:
        >
        > What a life. Idyllic.
        >
        >
        > On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 3:49 PM, heron83000 psan83000@... wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Remarkably static :
        > >
        > > They lived by fishing and smuggling.
        > >
        > > Before, by fishing and piracy with the Vikings.
        > >
        > > And again before, by fishing and piracy with the Saxons.
        > >
        > > Philippe
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Piero Sinclair wrote:
        > > >
        > > > What a mess. My apologies on behalf of all Englishmen!
        > > > I wonder how static the population of the Channel Islands has been, at
        > > > least before it became a haven of tax exiles.
        > > > Cheers
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 11:11 AM, heron83000 psan83000@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > **
        > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > The Hundred Years War period is my brick wall.
        > > > >
        > > > > First, the building of the archives of Cotentin, at Saint-Lô, was
        > > > > completely destroyed by the U106 cowboys of the USAF in 1944. If they
        > > had
        > > > > known, they would not drink Whisky, Bourbon or Drambuie before taking
        > > off :)
        > > > >
        > > > > Then the various armies of this period have ravaged the countryside and
        > > > > cities, there was a long period of scarcity, where there were no
        > > cattle or
        > > > > grain for seed fields of the richest French province of theses times.
        > > > > Peasants -and their lords- became bandits in the forest to survive.
        > > > >
        > > > > Cities taken by the English were emptied the rest of their inhabitants
        > > and
        > > > > recruitment campaigns settlers were made in the south of England.
        > > > > For decades, the English of all trades have settled in some towns in
        > > > > Normandy (I'll try to find their names in Cotentin).
        > > > >
        > > > > And the Black Plague. From 1347 to 1450 the eastern Normandy lost 70%
        > > of
        > > > > its population in the country according to the latest studies
        > > collected by
        > > > > Boris Bove ISBN 9782701133614. The Cotentin seems to have lost a little
        > > > > less, but the country has been emptied of its inhabitants.
        > > > >
        > > > > Not easy to know what really happened during this period, yet
        > > relatively
        > > > > close to us.
        > > > >
        > > > > And just after this period, there were the wars of religion ...
        > > > >
        > > > > Philippe
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Piero Sinclair wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > No, I'd be very interested in anything you can tell me about Lestre.
        > > The
        > > > > > putative Lestre ancestor of these Lassiters were in England in the
        > > early
        > > > > > 12th century, so it's long before the Hundred Years War, but I'm very
        > > > > > interested in that period of history.
        > > > > > Cheers
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 10:28 PM, heron83000 psan83000@ wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > **
        > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Sorry, I knew nothing about West Country English accent !
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Have you some elements about British colonization of Lestre ?
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Philippe
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Piero Sinclair wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hi Philippe. Yes I agree it lacks a syllable. But two of the
        > > forms
        > > > > of the
        > > > > > > > Lassiters/Lassaters that have this haplotype are called Laster.
        > > > > Also, I
        > > > > > > > don't know whether you read my mention of the West Country
        > > English
        > > > > > > accent,
        > > > > > > > where confronted by the French Lestre they would pronounce it
        > > > > something
        > > > > > > > like Lasster, with a strong emphasis on the s. It's quite easy to
        > > > > imagine
        > > > > > > > or develop the tiny syllable in between, because as the
        > > differences
        > > > > of
        > > > > > > > spelling between Lassiter and Lassater suggest, it is just a tiny
        > > > > pause
        > > > > > > > between the first and last syllable.
        > > > > > > > Cheers
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 9:47 PM, heron83000 psan83000@ wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > **
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Dear Piero, concerning the origin of the name Lassiter:
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > I am very interested by Lestre, very very close to Grenneville
        > > > > > > (Crasville)
        > > > > > > > > and Quettehou, the cradle of my family. The name is of Latin
        > > > > origin:
        > > > > > > > > Aestruarium, aestrum = estuary, estre in old french, according
        > > to
        > > > > Paul
        > > > > > > > > Chesnel (Le Cotentin et l'Avranchin depuis les origines,
        > > 1908), the
        > > > > > > mouth
        > > > > > > > > of the river Sinope.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > But it really lacks a syllable :
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Lestre = Le-ster = OK
        > > > > > > > > Lestre = La-ssi-ter = Possible but seems unlikely
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > The current village of Lestre was called before 1789
        > > Anglesville or
        > > > > > > > > Englesqueville. I guess it was a British possession during the
        > > > > Hundred
        > > > > > > > > Years War with a British colonization ?
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Philippe
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Piero Sinclair wrote:
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > I agree that the Sinclairs of Caithness and the Northern
        > > Isles
        > > > > ,who
        > > > > > > are
        > > > > > > > > > overwhelmingly Z346*, descend from the Sinclairs of Roslin,
        > > and
        > > > > no
        > > > > > > other
        > > > > > > > > > plausible scenario fits the data, so as far as I'm concerned
        > > > > it's a
        > > > > > > done
        > > > > > > > > > deal.
        > > > > > > > > > Re matches to the Sinclairs there are in fact more than you
        > > > > think.
        > > > > > > There
        > > > > > > > > > are a group of Kincaids, one or two of which are closer to
        > > the
        > > > > modal
        > > > > > > > > Z346*
        > > > > > > > > > Sinclair than some Z346* Sinclairs. In addition to the Z346*s
        > > > > listed
        > > > > > > in
        > > > > > > > > > the FTDNA U106 list and on U106 files, there are highly
        > > probable
        > > > > > > Z346*
        > > > > > > > > > members on YSearch. There are also very likely Z346*s who
        > > have
        > > > > not
        > > > > > > tested
        > > > > > > > > > in the U106 group.
        > > > > > > > > > I want in the near future to have a proper look at this whole
        > > > > group
        > > > > > > > > (tested
        > > > > > > > > > and putative Z346*). My impression is that many of them who
        > > have
        > > > > > > their
        > > > > > > > > > ancestors in the British Isles may go back to Normandy. I've
        > > > > already
        > > > > > > > > > looked at the Roslin Sinclairs and wrote my piece on them. It
        > > > > argues
        > > > > > > that
        > > > > > > > > > they did come from Normandy and I explained exactly how,
        > > which
        > > > > > > differed
        > > > > > > > > > from the mythical account which also places them in
        > > Normandy. So
        > > > > > > whether
        > > > > > > > > > you go by the traditional view or by an examination of the
        > > > > primary
        > > > > > > > > sources,
        > > > > > > > > > the Z346* Sinclairs are in my opinion definitely from
        > > Normandy,
        > > > > > > barring
        > > > > > > > > an
        > > > > > > > > > NPE in just the just three generations between the first
        > > > > Sinclair of
        > > > > > > > > Roslin
        > > > > > > > > > and the first Sinclair Earl of Orkney. My updated piece is
        > > at the
        > > > > > > > > > following link but the updates are not significant so it's
        > > not
        > > > > worth
        > > > > > > > > > reading again.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/24nq0h0ywrt5e37/AncestorofRoslinZ346i.docx
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > According to this account the Sinclairs of Roslin go back to
        > > > > Osmond
        > > > > > > de
        > > > > > > > > > Centville, Vicomte de Vernon and Seigneur de Reviers, and his
        > > > > father
        > > > > > > > > > Theudebert. It's interesting that on YSearch and U106
        > > together
        > > > > there
        > > > > > > are
        > > > > > > > > > four Lassaters (forms: Lassater, Lassiter, Laster) all
        > > showing
        > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > distinctive features of Z346*. There are two Lestre
        > > individuals
        > > > > > > mentioned
        > > > > > > > > > in the early 1100s in West Country England who were closely
        > > > > > > connected to
        > > > > > > > > > the Vernon/Reviers family (also descendants of Osmond de
        > > > > Centville).
        > > > > > > The
        > > > > > > > > > Vernon/Reviers family were the Earls of Devon (in the West
        > > > > Country).
        > > > > > > The
        > > > > > > > > > Vernons and Reviers were tenants-in-chief of the Lestres in
        > > > > Normandy.
        > > > > > > > > > Lestre if pronounced in the old West Country way would sound
        > > > > > > something
        > > > > > > > > like
        > > > > > > > > > Laster with a strong emphasis on the s. Some people think
        > > > > Lassiter
        > > > > > > > > derives
        > > > > > > > > > from Leicester but I think it more likely that it is from
        > > Lestre,
        > > > > > > which
        > > > > > > > > is
        > > > > > > > > > a place in the Cotentin, Normandy, where Osmond de Centville
        > > and
        > > > > his
        > > > > > > > > heirs
        > > > > > > > > > owned much land. There appears to be a cluster of Z346* who
        > > have
        > > > > > > > > > ancestors in Somerset (West country England). Some of the
        > > Z346*
        > > > > > > Kincaid's
        > > > > > > > > > closest matches are from Somerset and three YSearch putative
        > > > > Z346*s
        > > > > > > come
        > > > > > > > > > from there. I have a theory about this which can wait
        > > > > (alternative to
        > > > > > > > > them
        > > > > > > > > > being descended from the Earls of Devon), and it also fits in
        > > > > with
        > > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > above scenario.
        > > > > > > > > > So I hope to have a proper look at this group, in particular
        > > to
        > > > > > > examine
        > > > > > > > > > their Norman credentials.
        > > > > > > > > >
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