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RE: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Devon, S.W England

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  • Brian Swann
    I hope that while all you genetic whiz kids are having fun breaking trail in this discipline you will also give a wee bit of thought to how easy a trail it
    Message 1 of 64 , Feb 1, 2013

      I hope that while all you genetic "whiz kids" are having fun breaking trail in this discipline you will also give a wee bit of thought to how easy a trail it might be to follow. As Debbie has pointed out, how easy it will be for us to convince new people that this is a good way to spend their hard earned money.


      I think this is a perfectly valid question, but cannot be answered right now.  It will be answered by the people who have the money spending it, and showing what can be done.  This is a continually evolving field for the foreseeable future.


      Many people almost want some sort of guarantee that a DNA test will work for them, personally.  I do wonder also whether we have a problem which may be more peculiarly British.


      There was a survey this week trying to understand why British cancer diagnosis and survival rates are in the middle for Europe and not at the top of the league.  One of their conclusions was that it was British reticence to ask for help or to disturb their doctor, whom they perceived was always very busy.  This may also be generationally related.


      And I just wonder if some of that carries over into DNA testing.  Trying to figure it out yourself, not asking or looking for any advice.  And spending money on companies which appeal to you through their advertising.  After all – any DNA test is much the same, isn’t it?  In principle we should all research online what we are going to buy, if it is moderately expensive, then make a rational decision after comparing all the salient facts.


      But sometimes human nature takes over and we do impulse buying, based on pretty nebulous facts.




      From: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bob elliott
      Sent: 01 February 2013 02:31
      To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Devon, S.W England


       I have read both "Albion's Seed" and "DNA USA".

      "Albion's Seed" is a great book which goes into minute detail concerning four groups Fischer considers those establishing the foundation of American Culture, the Puritans, Quakers, Virginia Cavaliers and the people of the Anglo-Scottish Border. This book is not for the faint of heart. I know two top notch researchers with decades of study behind them who both lacked the stamina to make it through this book. My main critique would be of what was omitted. There were other groups that might have benefited from similar analysis. A group I'm especially interested in are those who fished the Grand Banks for a century or more prior to the landing of the Mayflower or even the founding of Jamestown. English, French, Dutch, Spanish, Basque and Breton young men left home each spring bound for Newfoundland to catch and salt cod all summer and return in the fall. As time went on a few began to overwinter, trapping furs, logging and dealing with natives.

      When the Puritan fathers realized the bonanza of cod off their coast which they might trade to Europe for other necessities, they could scarcely find anyone willing to do that dirty, dangerous and very profitable work among the sanctified. They were forced to bring unsavory profane men down the coast form Newfoundland, tempting them with higher pay, better prospects or living conditions. Inevitably, these men found local women to marry, passing their YDNA to future Canadians and Americans.

      It might be argued that these poorly documented men had as much or more to do as anyone with bringing wealth to the early colonies.

      I liked Brian Sykes "DNA USA" but it was much different than his "Saxons, Vikings & Celts". DNA USA focuses on autosomal DNA from a broad range of folks from all over the county and from various ethnic backgrounds and mixes. I especially appreciated his discussion of some ethical issues surround DNA testing which usually gets scant consideration. Between DNA USA and Mike Thompson of this group, I was convinced to order the 23andme test. I'm awaiting results.

      While on the subject of books, I have Debbie's "DNA and Social Networking" which I've not yet read since my fellow researcher absconded with it as soon as it arrived. It's back now.

      I've been thinking about ordering Barry Cunliffe's "Britain Begins" but based on recent discussions here I'm hesitant. I have his "Europe Between the Oceans" which I think is great and perhaps I should get his new book and just ignore obsolete DNA references.

      It is my impression that there are many in this forum and others like it who do not take a back seat to many in academia and occasionally break trail for them in genetics. It almost seems like big names in traditional archaeology have been forced to at last consider the genetics and are peddling hard to catch up. It seems as fast as the field advances, it seems difficult if not impossible to get a book into print even with the most current information before it goes a bit stale. I fear that using Oppenheimer's outdated data & nomenclature might serve only to confuse folks.

      I hope that while all you genetic "whiz kids" are having fun breaking trail in this discipline you will also give a wee bit of thought to how easy a trail it might be to follow. As Debbie has pointed out, how easy it will be for us to convince new people that this is a good way to spend their hard earned money.

      I my view data is the life blood of this game and we need much much more of it. You can help average person follow in your footsteps by making genetics as simple as possible for them to understand.....bob

      --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Charles Moore wrote:
      > It is a great book, Charlie, filled with data, and humor.
      > Charles
      > On Jan 31, 2013, at 6:27 AM, Charlie Cheshire wrote:
      > > Thank you Debbie for your insight and comments. I also appreciate the links. I think I'll see if I can order Albion's Seed.
      > > Charlie
      > >
      > > From: Debbie Kennett
      > > To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:03 PM
      > > Subject: RE: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Devon, S.W England
      > >
      > > Charlie
      > >
      > > That's an interesting question. The subject of emigration to America has
      > > been covered in the book Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America:
      > >
      > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Albions-Seed-British-Folkways-Cultural/dp/0195069056
      > > /
      > >
      > > This book has been highly recommended to me by a number of US researchers
      > > but it's a somewhat weighty tome and I've not yet had time to read it.
      > >
      > > The phenomenon you describe is known as "chain migration". The early
      > > settlers in America would in any case only have had a small group from which
      > > to choose their marriage partners. I'm not aware of any study which has
      > > attempted to quantify the extent of chain migration and cousin marriage in
      > > Colonial America. I think it's a great pity that there are no academic
      > > researchers in America doing DNA studies of the US population along the
      > > lines of the People of the British Isles Project or the Capelli paper "A Y
      > > chromosome census of the British Isles":
      > >
      > > http://www.freewebs.com/flanneryclandna/PDFPAPERS/YCAPELLI2003.pdf
      > >
      > > I've not yet read Bryan Sykes' new book "DNA USA" but I understand that he
      > > only did a limited amount of sampling, mostly from New England. And of
      > > course the problem with Sykes' work is that, with the exception of his
      > > landmark surnames paper, none of it has been published in a peer-reviewed
      > > scientific journal.
      > >
      > > There is certainly much to be learnt by sampling men in the US, but the
      > > problem remains of determing how representative these men are of the genetic
      > > structure of their ancestral countries. We only have observations rather
      > > than much in the way of hard data but it does seem to be the case within the
      > > UK-based surname projects that have sampled sizeable numbers of men in both
      > > the UK and the US that there is much more genetic diversity in the UK men
      > > than in the American men. The Americans tend to cluster in a few large
      > > groups whereas the Brits are often singletons or they are in multiple very
      > > small groups. The founder effect can be seen in many US families. You often
      > > find "patriarchs" from the 1600s in America with 10,000 or 20,000 documented
      > > descendants. You hardly ever see trees of this size in England. Families in
      > > big cities like London and Bristol were severely reduced in size by diseases
      > > such as cholera and typhoid and two world wars took a far greater toll in
      > > Europe than in America. You might find this article by Chris Pomery on the
      > > subject of genetic drift of interest:
      > >
      > > http://tinyurl.com/dividedbypond
      > >
      > > As a result, while you find people from all over the world living in America
      > > today, they are not necessarily representative samples of the populations of
      > > their homelands. Perhaps only 20% or 30% of the genetic lines in England
      > > are represented in America, and I'm sure the same will apply to most other
      > > countries with perhaps the possible exception of Ireland and maybe Scotland.
      > >
      > > I think it's very important to test people from all over the world. There
      > > are lines which might have lived on in America which are now extinct in
      > > Europe. Conversely there will be many more lines in Europe and elsewhere
      > > that are not found in America. Australia is also a very important source of
      > > "British" DNA because of the million or so "ten pound poms" who emigrated
      > > there in the sixties and later.
      > >
      > > Best wishes
      > >
      > > Debbie
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > >
      > > From: mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21%40yahoogroups.com]
      > > On Behalf Of Charlie Cheshire
      > > Sent: 30 January 2013 11:57
      > > To: mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21%40yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Devon, S.W England
      > >
      > > Debbie, are the U.S. colonial settlers considered a group forming a
      > > founder's effect? From what I've read it appears different areas of the U.S.
      > > were settled by individuals that came from specific regions say either
      > > Southwest England, East Anglia, the Midlands, or the Border regions. I know
      > > in the southeastern U.S. that families that intermarried would also move in
      > > groups and settle new areas as land became available. In other words you
      > > could have individuals that came from the southwest of England settled in
      > > Virginia, intermarry with each other, then move as family groups to the
      > > Carolinas and Georgia as that land was made available for settlement.
      > > Another would be the Cajuns that formed their own group when expelled from
      > > Canada. Could the way in which colonial groups were formed help with the
      > > work in the British Isles? I personnally have a lot of small segments of dna
      > > that match with other people at 23andme. Some of it seems to go back to the
      > > early settlers.
      > >
      > > Charlie
      > >
      > >

    • bob elliott
      I don t know about others but I ve learned more about my own family history since I was Y-DNA tested than either my parents, grandparents or probably even
      Message 64 of 64 , Feb 1, 2013
        I don't know about others but I've learned more about my own family history since I was Y-DNA tested than either my parents, grandparents or probably even great-grandparents ever knew. Now if we could just learn where the 1st American Elliott of my line caught the boat west.

        I suppose all it takes is for a single generation to drop the ball. It may be that culturally we just don't value our ancestors as much as some others. I read of a man from India whose father's line was know 3,000+ years back....bob

        --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Mike Thompson wrote:
        > "Between DNA USA and Mike Thompson of this group, I was convinced to
        > order the 23andme test. I'm awaiting results."
        > I hope you have good luck with your test. I've had quite a few nice
        > match ups and some lingering mysteries..but then I probably wouldn't
        > be here if it wasn't for mysteries. My wife always says "Imagine if
        > your grandparents had just told you where they were from."
        > mike t
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