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Splitting R1b1c9

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  • TENSAWMAC@aol.com
    Hello all, First let me say thanks to our admins for setting up what is already a succesful R1b1c9 project at FTDNA. Thanks. My question: Is there a
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 11 4:26 PM
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      Hello all,

      First let me say thanks to our admins for setting up what is already a succesful R1b1c9 project at FTDNA. Thanks.
      My question:
      Is there a possibility that by looking at the Watson and Ventner sequences, along with any R1b1c9s who have tested at DeCodeMe that a SNP can be found that splits R1b1c9 at some point? Are there studies such as that taking place? Does anything look promising?
      -Robert McMillan 35043
    • Ralph Cake
      ... already a succesful R1b1c9 project at FTDNA. Thanks. ... sequences, along with any R1b1c9s who have tested at DeCodeMe that a SNP can be found that splits
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 11 4:44 PM
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        --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, TENSAWMAC@... wrote:
        >
        > Hello all,
        >
        > First let me say thanks to our admins for setting up what is
        already a succesful R1b1c9 project at FTDNA. Thanks.
        > My question:
        > Is there a possibility that by looking at the Watson and Ventner
        sequences, along with any R1b1c9s who have tested at DeCodeMe that a
        SNP can be found that splits R1b1c9 at some point? Are there studies
        such as that taking place? Does anything look promising?
        > -Robert McMillan 35043
        >
        Hello Group,

        Robert I had to have Gareth download my y results from deCODEMe. He
        added the following:

        Apart from one missing result (rs9785663) you are a perfect match to
        the other R1b1c9*s. Apart from S29 I don't think there are any SNPs
        in the test which will distinguish any major branches within R1b1c9.
        This is similar to what we are seeing with R1b1c10 but I don't know
        if it will be true of all haplogroups.

        Not the kind of news we want to hear, but things change daily

        Ralph
      • TENSAWMAC@aol.com
        Ralph, I hate to hear that. Especially since you are so close to me. I was hoping that your results might provide us a McMillan SNP and that other results so
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 11 5:20 PM
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          Ralph, I hate to hear that. Especially since you are so close to me. I was hoping that your results might provide us a "McMillan SNP" and that other results so far might have the potential to split the haplogroup.

          The good news is that DNA testing is still 'relatively' new and that perhaps future breakthroughs are forthcoming.

          Thanks for that info Ralph

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Ralph Cake <rhc53@...>
          To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 6:44 pm
          Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Splitting R1b1c9

          --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, TENSAWMAC@... wrote:
          
          > > Hello all, > > First let me say thanks to our admins for setting up what is
          already a succesful R1b1c9 project at FTDNA. Thanks.
          > My question: > Is there a possibility that by looking at the Watson and Ventner
          sequences, along with any R1b1c9s who have tested at DeCodeMe that a SNP can be found that splits R1b1c9 at some point? Are there studies such as that taking place? Does anything look promising?
          > -Robert McMillan 35043 >
          Hello Group, Robert I had to have Gareth download my y results from deCODEMe. He added the following: Apart from one missing result (rs9785663) you are a perfect match to the other R1b1c9*s. Apart from S29 I don't think there are any SNPs in the test which will distinguish any major branches within R1b1c9. This is similar to what we are seeing with R1b1c10 but I don't know if it will be true of all haplogroups. Not the kind of news we want to hear, but things change daily Ralph ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b1c_U106-S21/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b1c_U106-S21/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: R1b1c_U106-S21-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Michael Maddi
          One thing is that the deCODEme results for yDNA SNPs are not exhaustive. They test for the nucleotide at 859 locations on the y chromosome. I believe I ve read
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 11 5:41 PM
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            One thing is that the deCODEme results for yDNA SNPs
            are not exhaustive. They test for the nucleotide at
            859 locations on the y chromosome. I believe I've read
            that only 120 or so of those locations are known SNPs
            in the yDNA haplogroup tree.

            There are still millions of locations where a
            nucleotide is that aren't tested by deCODEme. Probably
            a more efficient approach, although still a needle in
            a haystack search, is the "Walk on the Y" (WOY)
            program announced by Thomas Krahn at the FTDNA
            conference last year. That's supposed to start at
            FTDNA sometime this year. It will take two candidates
            who have similar haplotypes and test the nucleotides
            at the same 50,000 base pairs for each of the
            candidates. If there is a derived values found at any
            of the locations and it's found in both candidates,
            that's a possible SNP. Then that possible SNP can be
            tested by others who have close haplotypes to the
            first two.

            The expectation is that each candidate would pay about
            $500 to participate in the WOY, although people who
            share similar haplotypes might chip in, since the
            research may benefit them. Then when a potential SNP
            is found, others could test for it for about $50 or
            less.

            Mike Maddi



            --- TENSAWMAC@... wrote:

            >
            > Ralph, I hate to hear that. Especially since you are
            > so close to me. I was hoping that your results might
            > provide us a "McMillan SNP" and that other results
            > so far?might have?the potential to split the
            > haplogroup.
            >
            > The good news is that DNA testing is still
            > 'relatively' new and that perhaps future
            > breakthroughs are forthcoming.
            >
            > Thanks for that info Ralph
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Ralph Cake <rhc53@...>
            > To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 6:44 pm
            > Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Splitting R1b1c9
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, TENSAWMAC@...
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello all,
            > >
            > > First let me say thanks to our admins for setting
            > up what is
            > already a succesful R1b1c9 project at FTDNA. Thanks.
            > > My question:
            > > Is there a possibility that by looking at the
            > Watson and Ventner
            > sequences, along with any R1b1c9s who have tested at
            > DeCodeMe that a
            > SNP can be found that splits R1b1c9 at some point?
            > Are there studies
            > such as that taking place? Does anything look
            > promising?
            > > -Robert McMillan 35043
            > >
            > Hello Group,
            >
            > Robert I had to have Gareth download my y results
            > from deCODEMe. He
            > added the following:
            >
            > Apart from one missing result (rs9785663) you are a
            > perfect match to
            > the other R1b1c9*s. Apart from S29 I don't think
            > there are any SNPs
            > in the test which will distinguish any major
            > branches within R1b1c9.
            > This is similar to what we are seeing with R1b1c10
            > but I don't know
            > if it will be true of all haplogroups.
            >
            > Not the kind of news we want to hear, but things
            > change daily
            >
            > Ralph
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            __________________________________________________
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          • TENSAWMAC@aol.com
            Perhaps the full sequences of Watson and Ventner put us R1b1c9s a step ahead in the WOY? I hope so. -Robert ... From: Michael Maddi To:
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 11 5:45 PM
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              Perhaps the full sequences of Watson and Ventner put us R1b1c9s a step ahead in the WOY?
              I hope so.
              -Robert


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@...>
              To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 7:41 pm
              Subject: Re: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Splitting R1b1c9

              One thing is that the deCODEme results for yDNA SNPs
              are not exhaustive. They test for the nucleotide at
              859 locations on the y chromosome. I believe I've read
              that only 120 or so of those locations are known SNPs
              in the yDNA haplogroup tree. 
              
              There are still millions of locations where a
              nucleotide is that aren't tested by deCODEme. Probably
              a more efficient approach, although still a needle in
              a haystack search, is the "Walk on the Y" (WOY)
              program announced by Thomas Krahn at the FTDNA
              conference last year. That's supposed to start at
              FTDNA sometime this year. It will take two candidates
              who have similar haplotypes and test the nucleotides
              at the same 50,000 base pairs for each of the
              candidates. If there is a derived values found at any
              of the locations and it's found in both candidates,
              that's a possible SNP. Then that possible SNP can be
              tested by others who have close haplotypes to the
              first two.
              
              The expectation is that each candidate would pay about
              $500 to participate in the WOY, although people who
              share similar haplotypes might chip in, since the
              research may benefit them. Then when a potential SNP
              is found, others could test for it for about $50 or
              less.
              
              Mike Maddi
              
              
              
              --- TENSAWMAC@... wrote:
              
              
              > > Ralph, I hate to hear that. Especially since you are > so close to me. I was hoping that your results might > provide us a "McMillan SNP" and that other results > so far?might have?the potential to split the > haplogroup. > > The good news is that DNA testing is still > 'relatively' new and that perhaps future > breakthroughs are forthcoming. > > Thanks for that info Ralph > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ralph Cake <rhc53@...> > To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 6:44 pm > Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Splitting R1b1c9 > > > > --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, TENSAWMAC@... > wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > First let me say thanks to our admins for setting > up what is > already a succesful R1b1c9 project at FTDNA. Thanks. > > My question: > > Is there a possibility that by looking at the > Watson and Ventner > sequences, along with any R1b1c9s who have tested at > DeCodeMe that a > SNP can be found that splits R1b1c9 at some point? > Are there studies > such as that taking place? Does anything look > promising? > > -Robert McMillan 35043 > > > Hello Group, > > Robert I had to have Gareth download my y results > from deCODEMe. He > added the following: > > Apart from one missing result (rs9785663) you are a > perfect match to > the other R1b1c9*s. Apart from S29 I don't think > there are any SNPs > in the test which will distinguish any major > branches within R1b1c9. > This is similar to what we are seeing with R1b1c10 > but I don't know > if it will be true of all haplogroups. > > Not the kind of news we want to hear, but things > change daily > > Ralph > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >
              __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b1c_U106-S21/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b1c_U106-S21/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:R1b1c_U106-S21-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: R1b1c_U106-S21-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • carolvass1942
              I d like to add my own thanks to the administrators for setting up the R1b1c9 project!! I m very confident that lots of clarity will come from focusing on
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 12 8:44 AM
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                I'd like to add my own thanks to the administrators for setting up the
                R1b1c9 project!! I'm very confident that lots of 'clarity' will come
                from focusing on this Haplogroup.

                I am particularly interested in what can be learned in terms of the
                Frisian/non-Frisian R1b1c9's. My brother's results [surname GLASS,
                Kit #42776] have been classified as non-Frisian. I'll be interested
                in any developments along this line and would be happy to participate
                in any further SNP testing - if that becomes feasible.

                Carol Vass
                Kent, WA


                --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, TENSAWMAC@... wrote:
                >
                > Hello all,
                >
                > First let me say thanks to our admins for setting up what is already
                a succesful R1b1c9 project at FTDNA. Thanks.
                > My question:
                > Is there a possibility that by looking at the Watson and Ventner
                sequences, along with any R1b1c9s who have tested at DeCodeMe that a
                SNP can be found that splits R1b1c9 at some point? Are there studies
                such as that taking place? Does anything look promising?
                > -Robert McMillan 35043
                >
              • Danny Barksdale
                What determines Frisian/non Frisian? Thanks. Danny Barksdale Kit 52078 ... From: carolvass1942 To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 12,
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 12 8:53 AM
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                  What determines Frisian/non Frisian? Thanks.
                  Danny Barksdale Kit 52078
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:44 AM
                  Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Splitting R1b1c9

                  I'd like to add my own thanks to the administrators for setting up the
                  R1b1c9 project!! I'm very confident that lots of 'clarity' will come
                  from focusing on this Haplogroup.

                  I am particularly interested in what can be learned in terms of the
                  Frisian/non- Frisian R1b1c9's. My brother's results [surname GLASS,
                  Kit #42776] have been classified as non-Frisian. I'll be interested
                  in any developments along this line and would be happy to participate
                  in any further SNP testing - if that becomes feasible.

                  Carol Vass
                  Kent, WA

                  --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@ yahoogroups. com, TENSAWMAC@.. . wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello all,
                  >
                  > First let me say thanks to our admins for setting up what is already
                  a succesful R1b1c9 project at FTDNA. Thanks.
                  > My question:
                  > Is there a possibility that by looking at the Watson and Ventner
                  sequences, along with any R1b1c9s who have tested at DeCodeMe that a
                  SNP can be found that splits R1b1c9 at some point? Are there studies
                  such as that taking place? Does anything look promising?
                  > -Robert McMillan 35043
                  >

                • carolvass1942
                  Danny: I m not sure I know the complete answer. Here is what Ken Nordveldt told me about my brother s results [ysearch TRYKD], and a further comment by David
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 12 9:23 AM
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                    Danny:
                    I'm not sure I know the complete answer. Here is what Ken Nordveldt
                    told me about my brother's results [ysearch TRYKD], and a further
                    comment by David Wilson:

                    Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:45:11 -0700
                    From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@...>
                    Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b1c9* - not Frisian
                    To: <genealogy-dna@...>

                    TRYKD has:

                    no 24 at 447
                    no 10 at H4
                    wrong 464 for Frisian
                    but has the 23 at 390 and 13 at 492 pointing to the broader S21+
                    covering haplogroup

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Carol Vass" <carolvass@...>
                    To: <genealogy-dna@...>
                    Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 5:37 PM
                    Subject: [DNA] R1b1c9* - not Frisian

                    On Nov 13, 2007, at 2:53 PM, David Wilson wrote:

                    There are also other R1b1c9 haplotypes that are not Frisian and
                    are harder to distinguish from the inclusive R1b population. If any
                    of these
                    are Germanic, they are not distinctive enough in my opinion to be
                    held up as
                    characteristic of a cultural or regional group.

                    David Wilson

                    David:
                    Could you look at TRYKD (my brother, surname GLASS, SNP tested at EA
                    as R1b1c9*) with *oral* history of German ancestry -- and not judged
                    to be Frisian. We have a 69/76 match with 36YPT (surname GOETZMAN)
                    who can verify ancestry to c1610 Baden-Wurttemburg (present day
                    Germany). [All 76 these markers may not be on y-search for both
                    men, but I think they are for my brother.] I keep trying to figure
                    out what makes TRYKD *not* Frisian??

                    Thanks for any insights.



                    --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Barksdale" <db14399@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > What determines Frisian/non Frisian? Thanks.
                    > Danny Barksdale Kit 52078
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: carolvass1942
                    > To: R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:44 AM
                    > Subject: [R1b1c_U106-S21] Re: Splitting R1b1c9
                    >
                    >
                    > I'd like to add my own thanks to the administrators for setting up the
                    > R1b1c9 project!! I'm very confident that lots of 'clarity' will come
                    > from focusing on this Haplogroup.
                    >
                    > I am particularly interested in what can be learned in terms of the
                    > Frisian/non-Frisian R1b1c9's. My brother's results [surname GLASS,
                    > Kit #42776] have been classified as non-Frisian. I'll be interested
                    > in any developments along this line and would be happy to participate
                    > in any further SNP testing - if that becomes feasible.
                    >
                    > Carol Vass
                    > Kent, WA
                    >
                    > --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, TENSAWMAC@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello all,
                    > >
                    > > First let me say thanks to our admins for setting up what is already
                    > a succesful R1b1c9 project at FTDNA. Thanks.
                    > > My question:
                    > > Is there a possibility that by looking at the Watson and Ventner
                    > sequences, along with any R1b1c9s who have tested at DeCodeMe that a
                    > SNP can be found that splits R1b1c9 at some point? Are there studies
                    > such as that taking place? Does anything look promising?
                    > > -Robert McMillan 35043
                    > >
                    >
                  • timjanzen1
                    Dear All, I agree with Michael Maddi s comments on this topic. In the short term I think that the FTDNA Walk on Y project offers the best option for
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 12 4:39 PM
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                      Dear All,

                      I agree with Michael Maddi's comments on this topic. In the short
                      term I think that the FTDNA Walk on Y project offers the best option
                      for discovering more SNPs within R1b1c9. As Ralph mentioned, S29 is
                      included in the deCODEme panel, but S26 and P107 are not. I don't
                      think that we should hold out a lot of hope that the current deCODEme
                      panel is going to reveal new SNPs downstream from S21 (U106). I have
                      looked at the deCODEme results for 3 people who are S21 (U106) up to
                      this point and the Y SNP results are all the same. In the long run
                      we all want complete Y chromosome sequencing, but it is difficult to
                      know how long it will take before that becomes economical. Another
                      option would be for Illumina, Affymetrix, or a similar company to
                      make a SNP chip that would test for all 72,220 known Y SNPs (see
                      http://www.ensembl.org/Homo_sapiens/mapview?chr=Y). It seems
                      probable that at least some of those 72,200 SNPs are downstream from
                      S21 (U106) but haven't been yet been determined to define subclades
                      of R1b1c9.

                      Sincerely,

                      Tim Janzen


                      --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, Michael Maddi <mtmaddi@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > One thing is that the deCODEme results for yDNA SNPs
                      > are not exhaustive. They test for the nucleotide at
                      > 859 locations on the y chromosome. I believe I've read
                      > that only 120 or so of those locations are known SNPs
                      > in the yDNA haplogroup tree.
                      >
                      > There are still millions of locations where a
                      > nucleotide is that aren't tested by deCODEme. Probably
                      > a more efficient approach, although still a needle in
                      > a haystack search, is the "Walk on the Y" (WOY)
                      > program announced by Thomas Krahn at the FTDNA
                      > conference last year. That's supposed to start at
                      > FTDNA sometime this year. It will take two candidates
                      > who have similar haplotypes and test the nucleotides
                      > at the same 50,000 base pairs for each of the
                      > candidates. If there is a derived values found at any
                      > of the locations and it's found in both candidates,
                      > that's a possible SNP. Then that possible SNP can be
                      > tested by others who have close haplotypes to the
                      > first two.
                      >
                      > The expectation is that each candidate would pay about
                      > $500 to participate in the WOY, although people who
                      > share similar haplotypes might chip in, since the
                      > research may benefit them. Then when a potential SNP
                      > is found, others could test for it for about $50 or
                      > less.
                      >
                      > Mike Maddi
                      >
                    • BradML
                      Hi, I looked up Richard III using Leo van de Pas s webtool. There are a whole bunch of his male line ancestors living today. Could be interesting to watch
                      Message 10 of 11 , Aug 24, 2012
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                        Hi,

                        I looked up Richard III using Leo van de Pas's webtool. There are a whole bunch of his male line ancestors living today. Could be interesting to watch "them" convince his ancestors to do a Y-DNA test.

                        Cheers,

                        Brad (www.the-kings-son.com)

                        --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, TENSAWMAC@... wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello all,
                        >
                        > First let me say thanks to our admins for setting up what is already a succesful R1b1c9 project at FTDNA. Thanks.
                        > My question:
                        > Is there a possibility that by looking at the Watson and Ventner sequences, along with any R1b1c9s who have tested at DeCodeMe that a SNP can be found that splits R1b1c9 at some point? Are there studies such as that taking place? Does anything look promising?
                        > -Robert McMillan 35043
                        >

                      • Vince
                        Actually, they d be a fantastic resource for performing whole-genome sequencing of a deep-rooted pedigree of a well-known R1b-U106 genealogy. Using
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 5, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Actually, they'd be a fantastic resource for performing whole-genome sequencing of a deep-rooted pedigree of a well-known R1b-U106 genealogy.

                          "Using deep-rooted pedigrees is important, because by whole genome sequencing only two individuals you get several dozen generations' worth of mutation. By contrast, sampling father-son pairs would require dozens of genomes to achieve a comparable amount of mutation."
                          - Dienekes' Anthropology Blog on "Calibrated human Y-chromosome phylogeny (Wei et al. 2012)", http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/10/calibrated-human-y-chromosome-phylogeny.html

                          I for one cannot wait until whole genome sequencing becomes affordable for the rest of us.

                          Vince T.

                          --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, "BradML" <enquiries@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi,
                          >
                          > I looked up Richard III using Leo van de Pas's webtool. There are a
                          > whole bunch of his male line ancestors living today. Could be
                          > interesting to watch "them" convince his ancestors to do a Y-DNA test.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          >
                          > Brad (www.the-kings-son.com <http://www.the-kings-son.com> )
                          > --- In R1b1c_U106-S21@yahoogroups.com, TENSAWMAC@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello all,
                          > >
                          > > First let me say thanks to our admins for setting up what is already a
                          > succesful R1b1c9 project at FTDNA. Thanks.
                          > > My question:
                          > > Is there a possibility that by looking at the Watson and Ventner
                          > sequences, along with any R1b1c9s who have tested at DeCodeMe that a SNP
                          > can be found that splits R1b1c9 at some point? Are there studies such as
                          > that taking place? Does anything look promising?
                          > > -Robert McMillan 35043
                          > >
                          >
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