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Re: Help Please - No Matches at 67 Markers

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  • gsm.egan
    Hi Kevin, my brother[common mother] unknown father [mum is deceased]. DNA tested at FTDNA (1) one marker of at 67 of a family line that goes back to 1400 in
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 26, 2013
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      Hi Kevin, my brother[common mother] unknown father [mum is deceased]. DNA tested at FTDNA (1) one marker of at 67 of a family line that goes back to 1400 in Wales. Enabled me to trace back with a high degree of certainty to a deceased male we believe was his biological father. Never going to get 100% but he has a family name name now even though he has changed his surname to our maternal great grandfather. Just remind yourself that every person that tests has a chance of helping themselves or some one else in the DNA maze. Even though I have a well researched Irish Surname and DNA places me as average or common occurring DNA blend it hasn't got me closer than a (5) five of at 67 to any one else.
      Cheers Gerry

      --- In R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com, "krich01" <kevin.rich@...> wrote:
      >
      > I started my DNA testing at FTDNA . . . . on the paternal side.
      >
      > Is there any advice other than to wait on someone to test that is a match for me?
      >
      > If there are any admins from the R1B group here I have joined the R1B project at FTDNA and my kit # is 283290.
      >
      > Fingers crossed for something else to try.
      >
      > -Kevin ?
      >
    • Erik Maher
      Hi Rich, After reading your tale, I m as perplexed as you are regarding the possible NPE.  Anyway, I did some plinking around and here are the results.
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 26, 2013
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        Hi Rich,

        After reading your tale, I'm as perplexed as you are regarding the possible NPE.  Anyway, I did some plinking around and here are the results.

        Firstly, your offmodals.
        Rich:  283290 CMVHZ (67m) - 391=10, 385=12-15, 459=9-9, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=15, 456=15, 576=20, 438=10, 413a=21, 557=17, 572=10

        In Ysearch, you have these kits as your closest (but not "close") matches:

        Corson:  AVT9R - 391=10, 385=12-15, 458=16, 455=10, 449=28, H4=10, 456=15, 446=12
        Rich:  ATA65 - 385b=15, 389b=17, 459=9-9, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=16, H4=12, 456=15, 442=13
        Rich:  9AAF8 - 389b=17, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=16, 456=15
        Rich:  NQYUH - 385b=15, 389b=17, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=16, 456=15
        Rich:  PYA24 - 19=13, 389b=17, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=16, H4=12, 456=15
        Rich:  SCYU6 - 391=10, 385b=15, 389b=17, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=16, 464d=16, 456=15, 576=20
        Vasey:  MZF7W - 391=10, 385b=15, 458=16, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=16, 456=15, 446=12

        You can see this for yourself by plugging this string:  CMVHZ,MZF7W,NQYUH,9AAF8,PYA24,SCYU6,ATA65,FNAD4,AVT9R into Ysearch's Research Tools.

        In WorldFamilies, Rich Lineage II general pattern is:  385b=15, 389b=17, 455=10, 448=20, 464c<=16, 456=15, 576=20, 413a=21, 534=16
        About 25% also have 459=9-9.
        You seem to belong in Lineage II.  I'd look into connection with other Rich kits in Lineage II and ask Rich admin on WorldFamilies to put you in Lineage II with them.

        I think it is pretty clear that you're going to test positive for DF13, based on Rich N2183's "R1b1a2a1a1b4" listing (indicating L21+).

        Rich Lineage V general pattern also has the unusual 455=10 value but doesn't seem to match your STR pattern.  They have 458=15, 455=10, 464c=16, 460=10, 446=14.

        There are two kits who have a similar pattern to yours in the R1b-L21 Haplotypes spreadsheet:
        N2326 (Phelan) and 247692 (Herring).  Both have 385b=15, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=16, 456=15, 576>=19.
        Phelan belongs to signature 144-1010 and has tested positive for L21 and L144.1 (but negative for L144?).
        See N2326 on http://www.familytreedna.com/public/whalen/default.aspx?section=yresults and compare to your own STR pattern.

        If I were you, I would (1) Test DF13, (2) Join L21 Plus Project assuming your DF13 result turns out positive, (3) Consider testing for L144.1,
        (4) Consider joining the Whalen-O'Faolain Surname yDNA Project as a guest.

        L144 is a confusing SNP (for me at least).  Apparently there was a mutation and then a back mutation.  Someone in the L144 haplogroup could more precisely explain what the deal is with this SNP and which one to order.

        Best,
        Erik.



        From: krich01 <kevin.rich@...>
        To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 12:10 AM
        Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Re: Help Please - No Matches at 67 Markers

         
        Erik,

        I have looked there and my kit is part of the worldfamilies RICH surname project. I don't know enough (yet) to what markers are unusual so thanks for the comment about 455. I also don't know much about the tools and how to use them properly or interpret the results I see.

        The somewhat interesting thing about any match with the surname "Rich" is that my 2nd great grandmother b. 1837 was a Rich and she never married. The family lore is that while her brothers were off in the Civil War there was an NPE with her and her son Lee B. Rich b. 1862 carried his mother's surname and all of his descendants did. We were always led to believe we were NOT related to the other Rich families in the county and it was only 30 - 40 years ago that we determined we were all of the same descent.

        I mention that because i should NOT match the Rich yDNA and yet I have seen some of my closest matches, although still not a match, to a couple of people with the Rich surname.

        Perplexed. I *really* wish I could get one of the living known "good" Rich living male cousins to test their yDNA.

        -Kevin

        --- In R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com, Erik Maher <erikandreasmaher@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Kevin,
        >
        > Just took a quick look at your Ysearch.  Did you see that there are a few other persons who have surname "Rich" who share the unusual marker value 455=10 with you?  (These few others might be the same as Lineage V on the Rich surname project on WorldFamilies.  I'm not sure yet.)  There is also one person of French ancestry with surname Vasey (MDKA Weasey), with this 455=10 and an STR pattern with a slight resemblance to yours.  The 455=10 doesn't just come along every day, so even though these two or three Rich and one Vasey don't match you closely, they could be your best bet to figure out your deeper haplogroup.  Try going to Ysearch, clicking on Research Tools, and enter in this search string after your Ysearch, with a comma after yours, then click on the compare button:  MZF7W,NQYUH,9AAF8,PYA24
        >
        > Apparently, none of them have done any SNP testing beyond FTDNA's basic backbone test, so predicting your haplogroup will take a bit more work.  I'll take a closer look sometime tomorrow and see if anything jumps out at me.
        >
        > Regards,
        > Erik.
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: krich01 <kevin.rich@...>
        > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 9:20 AM
        > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Re: Help Please - No Matches at 67 Markers
        >
        >
        >
        >  
        > Thanks for the replies I am hoping for some suggestions from the FTDNA admins that might point to some SNP suggestions for deep ancestry that might assist me if a discover a promising Family Finder match. I have already ordered and returned my AncestryDNA kit and will see what those results produce. As for 23andMe I have not tested with them specifically because of the medical testing and results they produce. I am one of those who a) doesn't want to know and b) don't want them to have that data.
        >
        > -Kevin
        >
        > --- In R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Kennett" <debbiekennett@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Kevin
        > >
        > > There are some R1b men who don't even have any matches at 12 markers so you
        > > are in a better position than some people. It is just a waiting game. I
        > > understand that 40% of adoptees find clues to their biological surname in
        > > the FTDNA database. If you are American you have a much better chance than
        > > other nationalities.
        > >
        > > You might also like to try testing with 23andMe which offers an autosomal
        > > test like Family Finder but which also provides health information. The
        > > 23andMe test also has a relative-finding component.
        > >
        > > As a last resort you could also try testing with AncestryDNA. Their test is
        > > currently only open to US residents. It lacks all the important
        > > functionality such as segment matching that you get from the other companies
        > > and you would have to use third-party tools to manipulate the data.
        > >
        > > There are are some mailing lists where you can ask for help such as the
        > > Unknown Father group and the DNA Adoption Group:
        > >
        > > http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Genetic_genealogy_mailing_lists
        > >
        > > Debbie
        > >

      • krich01
        Erik, First of all thanks for all of the time and effort you put into this. I just wish I knew enough to understand your response fully. I m a good study
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 26, 2013
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          Erik,

          First of all thanks for all of the time and effort you put into this. I just wish I knew enough to understand your response fully. I'm a good study though and will carefully read your reply and work to understand it all. I will also order the test for DF13 assuming I can find it on the FTDNA site.

          From there who knows but maybe it will yield another clue. I really do appreciate the help and will keep checking in here to see if I can gain additional understanding into my specific makeup.

          -Kevin

          --- In R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com, Erik Maher <erikandreasmaher@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Rich,
          >
          > After reading your tale, I'm as perplexed as you are regarding the possible NPE.  Anyway, I did some plinking around and here are the results.
          >
          > Firstly, your offmodals.
          > Rich:  283290 CMVHZ (67m) - 391=10, 385=12-15, 459=9-9, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=15, 456=15, 576=20, 438=10, 413a=21, 557=17, 572=10
          >
          > In Ysearch, you have these kits as your closest (but not "close") matches:
          >
          > Corson:  AVT9R - 391=10, 385=12-15, 458=16, 455=10, 449=28, H4=10, 456=15, 446=12
          > Rich:  ATA65 - 385b=15, 389b=17, 459=9-9, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=16, H4=12, 456=15, 442=13
          > Rich:  9AAF8 - 389b=17, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=16, 456=15
          > Rich:  NQYUH - 385b=15, 389b=17, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=16, 456=15
          > Rich:  PYA24 - 19=13, 389b=17, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=16, H4=12, 456=15
          > Rich:  SCYU6 - 391=10, 385b=15, 389b=17, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=16, 464d=16, 456=15, 576=20
          > Vasey:  MZF7W - 391=10, 385b=15, 458=16, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=16, 456=15, 446=12
          >
          > You can see this for yourself by plugging this string:  CMVHZ,MZF7W,NQYUH,9AAF8,PYA24,SCYU6,ATA65,FNAD4,AVT9R into Ysearch's Research Tools.
          >
          > In WorldFamilies, Rich Lineage II general pattern is:  385b=15, 389b=17, 455=10, 448=20, 464c<=16, 456=15, 576=20, 413a=21, 534=16
          > About 25% also have 459=9-9.
          > You seem to belong in Lineage II.  I'd look into connection with other Rich kits in Lineage II and ask Rich admin on WorldFamilies to put you in Lineage II with them.
          >
          > I think it is pretty clear that you're going to test positive for DF13, based on Rich N2183's "R1b1a2a1a1b4" listing (indicating L21+).
          >
          > Rich Lineage V general pattern also has the unusual 455=10 value but doesn't seem to match your STR pattern.  They have 458=15, 455=10, 464c=16, 460=10, 446=14.
          >
          > There are two kits who have a similar pattern to yours in the R1b-L21 Haplotypes spreadsheet:
          > N2326 (Phelan) and 247692 (Herring).  Both have 385b=15, 455=10, 448=20, 464c=16, 456=15, 576>=19.
          > Phelan belongs to signature 144-1010 and has tested positive for L21 and L144.1 (but negative for L144?).
          > See N2326 on http://www.familytreedna.com/public/whalen/default.aspx?section=yresults and compare to your own STR pattern.
          >
          > If I were you, I would (1) Test DF13, (2) Join L21 Plus Project assuming your DF13 result turns out positive, (3) Consider testing for L144.1,
          > (4) Consider joining the Whalen-O'Faolain Surname yDNA Project as a guest.
          >
          > L144 is a confusing SNP (for me at least).  Apparently there was a mutation and then a back mutation.  Someone in the L144 haplogroup could more precisely explain what the deal is with this SNP and which one to order.
          >
          > Best,
          > Erik.
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: krich01 <kevin.rich@...>
          > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 12:10 AM
          > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Re: Help Please - No Matches at 67 Markers
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          > Erik,
          >
          > I have looked there and my kit is part of the worldfamilies RICH surname project. I don't know enough (yet) to what markers are unusual so thanks for the comment about 455. I also don't know much about the tools and how to use them properly or interpret the results I see.
          >
          > The somewhat interesting thing about any match with the surname "Rich" is that my 2nd great grandmother b. 1837 was a Rich and she never married. The family lore is that while her brothers were off in the Civil War there was an NPE with her and her son Lee B. Rich b. 1862 carried his mother's surname and all of his descendants did. We were always led to believe we were NOT related to the other Rich families in the county and it was only 30 - 40 years ago that we determined we were all of the same descent.
          >
          > I mention that because i should NOT match the Rich yDNA and yet I have seen some of my closest matches, although still not a match, to a couple of people with the Rich surname.
          >
          > Perplexed. I *really* wish I could get one of the living known "good" Rich living male cousins to test their yDNA.
          >
          > -Kevin
          >
          > --- In R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com, Erik Maher <erikandreasmaher@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Kevin,
          > >
          > > Just took a quick look at your Ysearch.  Did you see that there are a few other persons who have surname "Rich" who share the unusual marker value 455=10 with you?  (These few others might be the same as Lineage V on the Rich surname project on WorldFamilies.  I'm not sure yet.)  There is also one person of French ancestry with surname Vasey (MDKA Weasey), with this 455=10 and an STR pattern with a slight resemblance to yours.  The 455=10 doesn't just come along every day, so even though these two or three Rich and one Vasey don't match you closely, they could be your best bet to figure out your deeper haplogroup.  Try going to Ysearch, clicking on Research Tools, and enter in this search string after your Ysearch, with a comma after yours, then click on the compare button:  MZF7W,NQYUH,9AAF8,PYA24
          > >
          > > Apparently, none of them have done any SNP testing beyond FTDNA's basic backbone test, so predicting your haplogroup will take a bit more work.  I'll take a closer look sometime tomorrow and see if anything jumps out at me.
          > >
          > > Regards,
          > > Erik.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ________________________________
          > > From: krich01 <kevin.rich@>
          > > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 9:20 AM
          > > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Re: Help Please - No Matches at 67 Markers
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >  
          > > Thanks for the replies I am hoping for some suggestions from the FTDNA admins that might point to some SNP suggestions for deep ancestry that might assist me if a discover a promising Family Finder match. I have already ordered and returned my AncestryDNA kit and will see what those results produce. As for 23andMe I have not tested with them specifically because of the medical testing and results they produce. I am one of those who a) doesn't want to know and b) don't want them to have that data.
          > >
          > > -Kevin
          > >
          > > --- In R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Kennett" <debbiekennett@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Kevin
          > > >
          > > > There are some R1b men who don't even have any matches at 12 markers so you
          > > > are in a better position than some people. It is just a waiting game. I
          > > > understand that 40% of adoptees find clues to their biological surname in
          > > > the FTDNA database. If you are American you have a much better chance than
          > > > other nationalities.
          > > >
          > > > You might also like to try testing with 23andMe which offers an autosomal
          > > > test like Family Finder but which also provides health information. The
          > > > 23andMe test also has a relative-finding component.
          > > >
          > > > As a last resort you could also try testing with AncestryDNA. Their test is
          > > > currently only open to US residents. It lacks all the important
          > > > functionality such as segment matching that you get from the other companies
          > > > and you would have to use third-party tools to manipulate the data.
          > > >
          > > > There are are some mailing lists where you can ask for help such as the
          > > > Unknown Father group and the DNA Adoption Group:
          > > >
          > > > http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Genetic_genealogy_mailing_lists
          > > >
          > > > Debbie
          > > >
          >
        • Erik Maher
          Kevin, Sure thing!  Some quick definitions that you might need (sometimes I forget that not everyone knows what these things are):  An off-modal is an STR
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 26, 2013
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            Kevin,
            Sure thing!  Some quick definitions that you might need (sometimes I forget that not everyone knows what these things are):  An "off-modal" is an STR value that is different than the modal (normal) value for a haplogroup.  With R1b, you can usually assume that someone is either in the P312 haplogroup, or in the U106 haplogroup.  They're the two "heavies", at least in Western Europe.  Then to find a person's off-modal values, you compare against what is modal for P312 or U106.  Fortunately, the modal values for both are nearly identical.  A "signature" or "variety" is a speculative STR pattern that several people share.  Often signatures will turn out to represent distinct haplogroups.  To order DF13, log into your account, click on Order an Upgrade ----- Order and Advanced Test ----- Select test type "SNP" ----- Enter DF13 and click Find ----- once you find it, click Add, then click Next to go to the payment screen.  Cost is about $39.  If you test positive for DF13, then you will have moved into a deeper (more recent in time) haplogroup than P312.  You would be in the haplogroup R1b-P312 > L21 > DF13+ and will have moved forward in time to about 3000 years before present.  Most L21+ men are also DF13+, so DF13 is a shortcut to determine L21 status as well.  As you drill down and, in the future, find yourself positive for something downstream from DF13, you will then move forward in time again.  Hope this helps.  - Erik.


            From: krich01 <kevin.rich@...>
            To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 8:11 PM
            Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Re: Help Please - Rich 283290 CMVHZ, No Matches at 67 Markers

             
            Erik,

            First of all thanks for all of the time and effort you put into this. I just wish I knew enough to understand your response fully. I'm a good study though and will carefully read your reply and work to understand it all. I will also order the test for DF13 assuming I can find it on the FTDNA site.

            From there who knows but maybe it will yield another clue. I really do appreciate the help and will keep checking in here to see if I can gain additional understanding into my specific makeup.

            -Kevin

          • smanscot@ymail.com
            Hi Kevin: Erik as done a good technical analysis for you, and I agree with most everything he said. The only point I might differ on is single SNP testing.
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 29, 2013
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              Hi Kevin:

              Erik as done a good technical analysis for you, and I agree with most everything he said. The only point I might differ on is single SNP testing. Since it doesn't appear that the Rich group has yet discovered their terminal SNP (the most recent historical SNP within a closely related group), I believe there is good value in taking the Geno2 test. They don't test for all of the currently known SNPs, but they do often surprise us with unknown (to us) SNPs. It could take you to your terminal SNP much quicker than single SNP testing, and since it costs around $200 this equates to 5 single SNP tests at $40 each (actually $39). Its possible you could take 5 SNP single tests without discovering your terminal SNP. Since you and your group of Richs seem to have a very unique 'signature' of off-modals that define them, its quite probable that you may not discover your terminal SNP within 5 single tests.

              Your haplotype appears to be on the fringe of the Lineage 2 Richs, with at least 3 steps from their 37 marker modal. Your success at finding your closest paternal relatives may ultimately hinge on those 3 markers -- 391=10, 385a=12, and 438=10. Given the fact that there appears to be only one other Rich who has tested to 67 markers, you may need to assume a leadership testing role and then encourage the others to follow.

              You may want to re-evaluate your goals before making big commitments of time and money. You stated that you wanted to use Y-DNA to help with your autosomal testing. Remember that 'recent' in the Y-DNA world is probably within the last 1000 years. But, with full genome testing becoming more affordable, genealogical matching and Y-DNA SNP matching will ultimately meet. If everybody took the full genome test we'd all know who our closest living relatives are, but we'd still need genealogical records to determine exactly how we are related. If you're mainly interested in genealogical times, then autosomal testing is your best bet, but it is apparently only useful up to the 5th cousin level.

              You said that you are a quick study: this yahoo site may be helpful in reducing your learning curve: There's many helpful people there.
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DNA-NEWBIE/

              One thing that helped to shorten my learning curve drastically was the discovery of 'triangulation'. Here is the link that was responsible.
              http://www.kerchner.com/triangulation.htm
              Make sure to study the link on that page which discusses the difference between 'ancestral' and 'modal' haplotypes.

              Knowing the mutation rates of certain markers is also very helpful when trying to sort haplotypes in chronological order. However, there is no substitution for a large dataset when trying to determine ancestral haplotypes. For example, Lineage 2 in the worldfamilies site seems to suggest that markers 455=10 and 448=20 may have been the first off-modal (from L21 modal) mutations to appear because they all possess those markers. However if we were to assume the following haplotype (Richey) should also be included in Lineage 2 as an ancestral haplotype, this would imply that 448=20, 576=20, and 413a=21 all preceded the appearance of 455=10 (which has the slowest mutation rate of all the off-modal markers in the lineage).
              246132 Richey, Samuel Richey http://www.familytreedna.com/public/richey/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

              Since so many close matches appear to be from Ancestry.com you may want to check out this conversion page http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/ADNA_FTDNA.html
              It appears that NQYUH didn't do any conversion at all because his 442 marker is 5 above your value (he has 17 there, and yours is 12). 442 is one of the four conversion markers and 5 should be deducted from the Ancestry value. Also, you have the option, without cost, of uploading your STR markers on to Ancestry. I've done this, but didn't find it that useful because none of their 43 markers coincided with my particular haplogroup's off-modals. Your case is quite different in that many of your off-modal STRs are a included in their 43 markers: This is proven by the fact that many of your Ysearch matches are from Ancestry clients. By uploading your results on to Ancestry you eliminate conversion errors (unless you forget to convert). However, it looks like this will be a moot point once you get back your Ancestry results.

              Lastly, I would recommend that you upgrade to 111 markers: Perhaps others would follow, and then you'd be better able to determine your closest Y-DNA relations. Even though you had no matches at 67, its possible you could get matches at 111 since the GD limit moves from 7 at 67 to 10 GDs at 111.

              To conclude, it seems evident that you have many Rich paternal cousins, as evidenced by the many Ysearch matches. Also, remember that the attraction, and marriage, of cousins in the 19th century was not that abnormal. It seems quite likely that your ancestral grandmother, with the surname Rich, conceived a male child by a distant, or even close, cousin, also by the name of Rich.

              Best Regards,

              Daryl Martin
              181420
              L193
              R1b-L513 Project Volunteer Co-Administrator


              --- In R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com, "krich01" <kevin.rich@...> wrote:
              >
              > Erik,
              >
              > I have looked there and my kit is part of the worldfamilies RICH surname project. I don't know enough (yet) to what markers are unusual so thanks for the comment about 455. I also don't know much about the tools and how to use them properly or interpret the results I see.
              >
              > The somewhat interesting thing about any match with the surname "Rich" is that my 2nd great grandmother b. 1837 was a Rich and she never married. The family lore is that while her brothers were off in the Civil War there was an NPE with her and her son Lee B. Rich b. 1862 carried his mother's surname and all of his descendants did. We were always led to believe we were NOT related to the other Rich families in the county and it was only 30 - 40 years ago that we determined we were all of the same descent.
              >
              > I mention that because i should NOT match the Rich yDNA and yet I have seen some of my closest matches, although still not a match, to a couple of people with the Rich surname.
              >
              > Perplexed. I *really* wish I could get one of the living known "good" Rich living male cousins to test their yDNA.
              >
              > -Kevin
              >
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