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9919 Project?

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  • Erik Maher
    Hi, does anyone know if there is already an existing FTDNA project specifically for people suspected of having multiple RecLOHs, such as for the 9919 men in
    Message 1 of 3 , Jun 17, 2013
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      Hi, does anyone know if there is already an existing FTDNA project specifically for people suspected of having multiple RecLOHs, such as for the 9919 men in L21?  I did a search in FTDNA's Project search box, and in Google, for "9919 Project" and "RecLOH Project" and I'm not seeing any such project come up in the results.  I understand that a single RecLOH (for example, 459=9-9) is relatively common and can be nearly indistinguishable from an ordinary mutation (i.e., did 459a overwrite 459b, or did 459b simply mutate downward???).  However, multiple RecLOHs are less common and can - such as in the case of the 9919 men - suggest a shared origin.

      Currently, as far as I know, the de facto project for the 9919 guys is the L21 Project.  Here, their haplotypes are not easy to sort out and study, separate from everyone else, as most of them do not yet have a defining SNP downstream from L21 (other than the 41-9919 group).  I'm also aware that you can apply filters in the R1b-L21 Haplotypes spreadsheet, to only show the 9919 kits, but wouldn't it be great if these folks had their own project as well?  The "stubbornness" of the 9919 signatures support the idea that eventually, defining SNPs will be found, and it will be fascinating to see if the various zz9919 signatures coalesce around a future as-of-yet-undiscovered SNP, or instead, move apart from each other, with a different SNP specific to each signature.  (Or maybe a combination:  Some will coalesce and others will break away.)

      I'm interested in creating a group called, let's say, "The 9919 and Multiple RecLOH Project", specifically for anyone with a 9919 signature (zz9919, zz9919-A, zz9919-A1, zz9919-A2, and so on), in addition to anyone in other haplogroups outside of L21, who is suspected of having multiple RecLOHs (which are perhaps single RecLOH events that happened to affect multiple markers in one fell swoop).  In the interest of avoiding redundancy, if anyone knows of an existing project that already serves this purpose, please let me know within the next 2 or 3 days before I ask FTDNA if they'd consider creating a Multiple RecLOH Project.

      Thanks!

      Regards,
      Erik.

    • kirstensaxe
      That s a great project idea. I don t think anyone else is doing it, so I hope you can get it going soon. Kirsten ... From: Erik Maher
      Message 2 of 3 , Jun 17, 2013
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        That's a great project idea. I don't think anyone else is doing it, so I hope you can get it going soon.

        Kirsten


        From: "Erik Maher" <erikandreasmaher@...>
        To: "R1b-YDNA" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 9:48:05 PM
        Subject: [R1b-YDNA] 9919 Project?

         

        Hi, does anyone know if there is already an existing FTDNA project specifically for people suspected of having multiple RecLOHs, such as for the 9919 men in L21?  I did a search in FTDNA's Project search box, and in Google, for "9919 Project" and "RecLOH Project" and I'm not seeing any such project come up in the results.  I understand that a single RecLOH (for example, 459=9-9) is relatively common and can be nearly indistinguishable from an ordinary mutation (i.e., did 459a overwrite 459b, or did 459b simply mutate downward???).  However, multiple RecLOHs are less common and can - such as in the case of the 9919 men - suggest a shared origin.

        Currently, as far as I know, the de facto project for the 9919 guys is the L21 Project.  Here, their haplotypes are not easy to sort out and study, separate from everyone else, as most of them do not yet have a defining SNP downstream from L21 (other than the 41-9919 group).  I'm also aware that you can apply filters in the R1b-L21 Haplotypes spreadsheet, to only show the 9919 kits, but wouldn't it be great if these folks had their own project as well?  The "stubbornness" of the 9919 signatures support the idea that eventually, defining SNPs will be found, and it will be fascinating to see if the various zz9919 signatures coalesce around a future as-of-yet-undiscovered SNP, or instead, move apart from each other, with a different SNP specific to each signature.  (Or maybe a combination:  Some will coalesce and others will break away.)

        I'm interested in creating a group called, let's say, "The 9919 and Multiple RecLOH Project", specifically for anyone with a 9919 signature (zz9919, zz9919-A, zz9919-A1, zz9919-A2, and so on), in addition to anyone in other haplogroups outside of L21, who is suspected of having multiple RecLOHs (which are perhaps single RecLOH events that happened to affect multiple markers in one fell swoop).  In the interest of avoiding redundancy, if anyone knows of an existing project that already serves this purpose, please let me know within the next 2 or 3 days before I ask FTDNA if they'd consider creating a Multiple RecLOH Project.

        Thanks!

        Regards,
        Erik.

      • Erik Maher
        Hi Kirsten, Thanks for your encouragement regarding the idea of a 9919 Project.  I see that for each significant cluster within L21, there is at least one SNP
        Message 3 of 3 , Jun 18, 2013
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          Hi Kirsten,

          Thanks for your encouragement regarding the idea of a 9919 Project.  I see that for each significant cluster within L21, there is at least one SNP or clan project where that cluster's members are predominantly found:
          - Irish Type I (Northwest Irish, M222+) --- M222 Project,
          - Irish Type II (CTS4466+) --- Eo´ganacht septs project and South Irish Project,
          - Irish Type III --- L226 Project and Z253 Project,
          - Irish Type IV --- Z253 Project,
          - Leinster aka Beatty-Byrnes or Irish Sea --- DYS464x Project, L159.2 Project, and Z255 Project,
          - 1030-A-Sc aka "Scots Modal" --- L1335 Project,
          - Projects for each major SNP downstream from L21 (Projects for DF63, DF49, L513, DF41, and DF21),
          - Stewart Stuart DNA Project & Descendants of High Stewards of Scotland project for L744+ and L745+,
          - R-L21 MacWho Cluster Project,
          - Clan Colla 425 Null Project,
          - Little Scottish Cluster Project (S424+ and S190+),
          - Ely Carroll Project,
          - Z251+ men --- currently in the L21 Plus Project,
          and so on.

          Then we have various geographical and haplogroup-prediction projects (Ireland Heritage, Munster Project, Scotland Project, L21 Plus Project, R-L21 Walk Through the Y Project, and so on).  I see that several 9919 men are in this last mentioned project, the WTY Project, where you're the Administrator.  From what I've read, they have yet to test positive for an SNP downstream from L21, and they have tested extensively.  Would whatever new SNP is discovered for them, therefore, have to be parallel to the existing ones?  At first, I wondered if it would make more sense to patiently wait for SNPs to be discovered for them, either from WTY or Full Genomes testing, and then a 9919 person could create a new SNP project, instead of a 9919 Project.

          On the other hand, seeing the 9919 men and other suspected-RecLOH men in their own project is a compelling idea.  I've long been fascinated with RecLOHs, not just in 9919 men but in all haplogroups, especially after seeing an unusual RecLOH-like pattern in (non-R1b) kit 233764 and finding further evidence - that left me with more questions than answers - in the results of his Panel 5 Palindromic Pack testing:
          http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=31776&highlight=RecLOH

          The 9919 guys have consistent signatures and that slow-moving 640=12 in the "A" groups, as Mike eloquently describes here and here:
          http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/14535
          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/15711

          When one or more SNPs are discovered for them, we don't know if they will all test positive for the same SNP or SNPs, and we also don't know who else in DF13 unassigned might belong to the same haplogroup(s) as they do.  I think a 9919 project would make sense, to be able to see the 9919 haplotypes and SNP reports separate from everyone else's, and to be able to do research and make predictions specific to them.  As such, I will go ahead right now and inquire at FTDNA about creating a "9919 and Multiple RecLOH" Project, and try to find a 9919 co-admin who can take over as admin at some point.

          Best regards,
          Erik.



          From: "dnalister@..." <dnalister@...>
          To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 11:14 PM
          Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] 9919 Project?

           
          That's a great project idea. I don't think anyone else is doing it, so I hope you can get it going soon.

          Kirsten


          From: "Erik Maher" <erikandreasmaher@...>
          To: "R1b-YDNA" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 9:48:05 PM
          Subject: [R1b-YDNA] 9919 Project?

           
          Hi, does anyone know if there is already an existing FTDNA project specifically for people suspected of having multiple RecLOHs, such as for the 9919 men in L21?  I did a search in FTDNA's Project search box, and in Google, for "9919 Project" and "RecLOH Project" and I'm not seeing any such project come up in the results.  I understand that a single RecLOH (for example, 459=9-9) is relatively common and can be nearly indistinguishable from an ordinary mutation (i.e., did 459a overwrite 459b, or did 459b simply mutate downward???).  However, multiple RecLOHs are less common and can - such as in the case of the 9919 men - suggest a shared origin.

          Currently, as far as I know, the de facto project for the 9919 guys is the L21 Project.  Here, their haplotypes are not easy to sort out and study, separate from everyone else, as most of them do not yet have a defining SNP downstream from L21 (other than the 41-9919 group).  I'm also aware that you can apply filters in the R1b-L21 Haplotypes spreadsheet, to only show the 9919 kits, but wouldn't it be great if these folks had their own project as well?  The "stubbornness" of the 9919 signatures support the idea that eventually, defining SNPs will be found, and it will be fascinating to see if the various zz9919 signatures coalesce around a future as-of-yet-undiscovered SNP, or instead, move apart from each other, with a different SNP specific to each signature.  (Or maybe a combination:  Some will coalesce and others will break away.)

          I'm interested in creating a group called, let's say, "The 9919 and Multiple RecLOH Project", specifically for anyone with a 9919 signature (zz9919, zz9919-A, zz9919-A1, zz9919-A2, and so on), in addition to anyone in other haplogroups outside of L21, who is suspected of having multiple RecLOHs (which are perhaps single RecLOH events that happened to affect multiple markers in one fell swoop).  In the interest of avoiding redundancy, if anyone knows of an existing project that already serves this purpose, please let me know within the next 2 or 3 days before I ask FTDNA if they'd consider creating a Multiple RecLOH Project.

          Thanks!

          Regards,
          Erik.



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