Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

Expand Messages
  • zx_cajun_tn@yahoo.com
    Hi Susan,   I looked at kit 79710 in Mike s L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.   Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 &
    Message 1 of 30 , Jan 14, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Susan,
       
      I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.
       
      Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.
       
      I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.
       
      Hope this helps,
      Brian Porter

      From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
      To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM
      Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question
       
      I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?

      Susan

    • Susan Young
      Thanks so much, Brian! I appreciate the help. Susan
      Message 2 of 30 , Jan 14, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Thanks so much, Brian! I appreciate the help.

        Susan

        On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:

        >
        > Hi Susan,
        >
        > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet. 79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.
        >
        > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.
        >
        > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.
        >
        > Hope this helps,
        > Brian Porter
        >
        > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
        > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM
        > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question
        >
        > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?
        >
        > Susan
        >
        >
        >
      • Susan Young
        My dad s kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I ve already
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 6, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!

          Susan

          On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:

          >
          > Hi Susan,
          >
          > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet. 79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.
          >
          > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.
          >
          > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.
          >
          > Hope this helps,
          > Brian Porter
          >
          > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
          > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM
          > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question
          >
          > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?
          >
          > Susan
          >
          >
          >
        • brian_p0rter
          That s awesome Susan! I m getting good at DNA predictions! Glad I could help.   Brian Porter Project Administrator Porter Surname DNA Project
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 6, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            That's awesome Susan!

            I'm getting good at DNA predictions! Glad I could help.
             
            Brian Porter
            Project Administrator
            Porter Surname DNA Project
             
             

            From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
            To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 2:12 PM
            Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

            My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!

            Susan

            On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:

            >
            > Hi Susan,

            > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.

            > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.

            > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.

            > Hope this helps,
            > Brian Porter
            >
            > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
            > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM
            > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question

            > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?
            >
            > Susan
            >
            >
            >



            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links

            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/

            <*> Your email settings:
                Individual Email | Traditional

            <*> To change settings online go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join
                (Yahoo! ID required)

            <*> To change settings via email:
                R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com
                R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

            <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



          • Seamus O'Neill
            Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 6, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
               
               
              From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
              To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
              Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

              My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!

              Susan

              On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:

              >
              > Hi Susan,

              > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.

              > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.

              > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.

              > Hope this helps,
              > Brian Porter
              >
              > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
              > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM
              > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question

              > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?
              >
              > Susan
              >
              >
              >



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links

              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/

              <*> Your email settings:
                  Individual Email | Traditional

              <*> To change settings online go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join
                  (Yahoo! ID required)

              <*> To change settings via email:
                  R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com
                  R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

              <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



            • Susan Young
              That s very interesting, Seamus, thanks for the additional info! Just FYI, the surname is Carll, Lowden was his first name. I am his 4th g-granddaughter. Susan
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 6, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                That's very interesting, Seamus, thanks for the additional info!

                Just FYI, the surname is Carll, Lowden was his first name. I am his 4th g-granddaughter.

                Susan

                On Feb 6, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Seamus O'Neill wrote:

                >
                > Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                >
                >
                > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                > Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                >
                > My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!
                >
                > Susan
                >
                > On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > Hi Susan,
                > >
                > > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet. 79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.
                > >
                > > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.
                > >
                > > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.
                > >
                > > Hope this helps,
                > > Brian Porter
                > >
                > > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                > > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM
                > > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                > >
                > > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?
                > >
                > > Susan
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Velma Boudreau
                Hi Seamus, I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle s kit # is 129628 tested with
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 6, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Seamus, 
                  I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                  Sincerely,
                  Velma Dalton Boudreau

                  Sent from my IPad

                  On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:

                   

                  Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                   
                   
                  From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                  To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                  Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                  My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!

                  Susan

                  On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:

                  >
                  > Hi Susan,

                  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.

                  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.

                  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.

                  > Hope this helps,
                  > Brian Porter
                  >
                  > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                  > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM
                  > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?
                  >
                  > Susan
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/

                  <*> Your email settings:
                      Individual Email | Traditional

                  <*> To change settings online go to:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join
                      (Yahoo! ID required)

                  <*> To change settings via email:
                      R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com
                      R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                • Seamus O'Neill
                  Below is O Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 6, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.
                     
                    The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick  
                    so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.
                     
                    The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 
                     
                    Seamus
                     
                     
                    O'Harts origin for Dalton
                     
                    THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that
                    which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a
                    Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which
                    he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid
                    the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately
                    retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the
                    ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having
                    signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the
                    invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,
                    and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits
                    of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now
                    called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,
                    which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper
                    Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of
                    Dalton.


                    From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                    To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                    Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                     
                    Hi Seamus, 
                    I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                    Sincerely,
                    Velma Dalton Boudreau

                    Sent from my IPad
                    On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                     
                    Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                     
                     
                    From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                    To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                    Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                    My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian! Susan On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote: > > Hi Susan, >  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C. >  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers. >  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49. >  > Hope this helps, > Brian Porter > > From: Susan Young <youngs@...> > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question >  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions? > > Susan > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Velma Boudreau
                    Thanks for that Seamus. Velma Dalton Boudreau Sent from my IPad
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 6, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thanks for that Seamus.

                      Velma Dalton Boudreau

                      Sent from my IPad

                      On 2013-02-06, at 8:29 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:

                       

                      Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.
                       
                      The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick  
                      so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.
                       
                      The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 
                       
                      Seamus
                       
                       
                      O'Harts origin for Dalton
                       
                      THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that
                      which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a
                      Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which
                      he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid
                      the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately
                      retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the
                      ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having
                      signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the
                      invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,
                      and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits
                      of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now
                      called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,
                      which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper
                      Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of
                      Dalton.


                      From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                      To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                      Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                       
                      Hi Seamus, 
                      I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                      Sincerely,
                      Velma Dalton Boudreau

                      Sent from my IPad
                      On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                       
                      Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                       
                       
                      From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                      To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                      Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                      My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian! Susan On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote: > > Hi Susan, >  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C. >  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers. >  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49. >  > Hope this helps, > Brian Porter > > From: Susan Young <youngs@...> > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question >  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions? > > Susan > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                    • Brian Swann
                      Do you have any dates to hang around this semi-mystical Sir Waltero de Aliton? It will then help in deciding which wave of Anglo-Norman / French invaders into
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 7, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment

                        Do you have any dates to hang around this semi-mystical Sir Waltero de Aliton?

                         

                        It will then help in deciding which wave of Anglo-Norman / French invaders into Ireland he went in with.  They were going in from 1169/70 onwards.

                         

                        But many came via Wales first.

                         

                        Brian

                         

                        From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Seamus O'Neill
                        Sent: 07 February 2013 00:00
                        To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                         

                         

                        Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.

                         

                        The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.

                         

                        The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 

                         

                        Seamus

                         

                         

                        O'Harts origin for Dalton

                         

                        THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that

                        which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a

                        Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which

                        he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid

                        the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately

                        retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the

                        ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having

                        signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the

                        invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,

                        and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits

                        of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now

                        called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,

                        which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper

                        Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of

                        Dalton.

                         

                         

                        From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                        To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                        Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                         

                        Hi Seamus, 

                        I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

                        Sincerely,

                        Velma Dalton Boudreau


                        Sent from my IPad

                        On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:

                         

                        Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.

                         

                         

                        From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                        To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                        Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                        My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!SusanOn Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:> > Hi Susan,>  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.>  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.>  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.>  > Hope this helps,> Brian Porter> > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>> To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM> Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question>  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?> > Susan> > > ------------------------------------Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/<*> Your email settings:    Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join    (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email:    R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:    R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                      • Timothy May
                        Can someone recommend books or resources on the history of the specific waves of the invaders? Even a brief list of dates and places is a good place to start.
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 7, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Can someone recommend books or resources on the history of the specific waves of the invaders?
                          Even a brief list of dates and places is a good place to start.  Interested in the Wales connection.

                          Thank you,

                          Tim


                          On 2/7/13 6:07 AM, Brian Swann wrote:
                           

                          Do you have any dates to hang around this semi-mystical Sir Waltero de Aliton?

                           

                          It will then help in deciding which wave of Anglo-Norman / French invaders into Ireland he went in with.  They were going in from 1169/70 onwards.

                           

                          But many came via Wales first.

                           

                          Brian

                           

                          From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Seamus O'Neill
                          Sent: 07 February 2013 00:00
                          To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                           

                           

                          Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.

                           

                          The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.

                           

                          The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 

                           

                          Seamus

                           

                           

                          O'Harts origin for Dalton

                           

                          THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that

                          which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a

                          Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which

                          he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid

                          the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately

                          retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the

                          ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having

                          signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the

                          invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,

                          and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits

                          of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now

                          called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,

                          which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper

                          Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of

                          Dalton.

                           

                           

                          From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                          To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                          Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                           

                          Hi Seamus, 

                          I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

                          Sincerely,

                          Velma Dalton Boudreau


                          Sent from my IPad

                          On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:

                           

                          Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.

                           

                           

                          From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                          To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                          Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                          My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!SusanOn Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:> > Hi Susan,>  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.>  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.>  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.>  > Hope this helps,> Brian Porter> > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>> To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM> Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question>  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?> > Susan> > > ------------------------------------Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/<*> Your email settings:    Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join    (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email:    R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:    R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                        • Timothy May
                          Don t let this sideline the Dalton / de Aliton discussion. Similar topics in the discussion raised my interest, hence the question. Tim
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 7, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Don't let this sideline the Dalton / de Aliton discussion.  Similar topics in the discussion
                            raised my interest, hence the question.

                            Tim

                            On 2/7/13 7:22 AM, Timothy May wrote:
                             

                            Can someone recommend books or resources on the history of the specific waves of the invaders?
                            Even a brief list of dates and places is a good place to start.  Interested in the Wales connection.

                            Thank you,

                            Tim


                            On 2/7/13 6:07 AM, Brian Swann wrote:
                             

                            Do you have any dates to hang around this semi-mystical Sir Waltero de Aliton?

                             

                            It will then help in deciding which wave of Anglo-Norman / French invaders into Ireland he went in with.  They were going in from 1169/70 onwards.

                             

                            But many came via Wales first.

                             

                            Brian

                             

                            From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Seamus O'Neill
                            Sent: 07 February 2013 00:00
                            To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                             

                             

                            Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.

                             

                            The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.

                             

                            The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 

                             

                            Seamus

                             

                             

                            O'Hartsorigin for Dalton

                             

                            THEBEisno certain account of the origin of this family, other than that

                            which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a

                            Frenchman,aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which

                            he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid

                            the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately

                            retiredinto Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the

                            ancientnatives and their invading English enemies; where, having

                            signalizedhis great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the

                            invader'sside, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,

                            and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits

                            of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now

                            called"Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,

                            whichhis posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper

                            Cromwell.This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of

                            Dalton.

                             

                             

                            From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                            To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                            Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                             

                            Hi Seamus, 

                            I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

                            Sincerely,

                            Velma Dalton Boudreau


                            Sent from my IPad

                            On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...>wrote:

                             

                            Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.

                             

                             

                            From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                            To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                            Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                            Mydad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!SusanOn Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:> > Hi Susan,>  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.>  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.>  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.>  > Hope this helps,> Brian Porter> > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>>To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM> Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question>  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?> > Susan> > > ------------------------------------Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/<*>Your email settings:    Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join    (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email:    R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com<*>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:    R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<*>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                        • Seamus O'Neill
                          Well the Saxons invaded Britain around 440 AD and with the native Celts in such a weakened state due to centuries of Roman oppression their victory was
                          Message 13 of 30 , Feb 7, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Well the Saxons invaded Britain around 440 AD and with the native Celts in such a weakened state due to centuries of Roman oppression their victory was inevitable however it is recorded there was one group who fought  against the invaders for 40 years before they were eventually defeated when it was likely they followed their fellow Celts to Brittany. The influx of these Celts to Brittany is said to have transformed the area between the estuaries of the Rance and the Loir and drove out the existing inhabitants, changing the name of Amorica to Brittany and creating the area of Cornouaille named after Cornwall.
                             
                            So what DNA signature did these Celts have, it is highly likely that a significant portion of these comprised of L21 people reflecting the various tribes displaced by the Romans, we know that the Royal Stuarts are DF41+ and if you look at the other people who have tested positive for this SNP we find Welsh names such as Price, Stephens, Samuels, Williams and Cooper and Scottish and Irish names of various origins which points to an Isles origin for this SNP. If the pedigree of Alan Fitz-flahald who was descended from the Seneschal of Dol of Brittany is to be believed then we have a link from Britain to Brittany and then back to Britain with William the Conquerer and we know that Alan Fitz-flahald  was granted extensive lands in Shropshire in the Welsh border regions, we also know that his Son Walter Fitz-Alan had extensive lands in Scotland  in Renfrewshire granted by David 1st of Scotland whose Sister was married to William the Conquerers Son Henry.
                             
                            This David was a great advocate of Norman customs and ways and granted large tracts of land to European Religious orders and they founded many Abbeys on them, he also invited many of his friends who were the Sons of Norman nobles to Scotland. We also know that war was waged against the Norwegians in the North of Scotland and that many Norman Nobles fought in this war and were granted large tracts of land in repayment for their service in these wars. So what we have is a version of the plantations that took place in Ireland which would introduce Welsh and Cornish L21 type DNA into Scotland particularly the border region. So if the given French Norman pedigree for Dalton is correct then it is possible that this Dalton M222 cluster was introduced to the border region then and when we consider the French and Welsh DF23 names and the Caldwell DF23 cluster whose territory was also in Renfrewshire where we have already seen that Norman lands were owned by Walter Fitz-Alan. These Caldwell's are very close to the origin of M222.
                             
                             
                            So now we look to Ireland and the Norman invasion of 1169 which was a result of the plea for help by Dermot McMurrough to King Henry which is shown in the passage below from Henry's Patent   
                             
                            Henry, King of England, duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and earl of Anjou, to all his liegemen, English, Norman, Welsh and Scotch, and to all the nations under his dominion, greeting. When these letters shall come into your hands, know ye, that we have received Dermod, Prince of Leinster, into the bosom of our grace and benevolence. Wherefore, whosoever, in the ample extent of all our territories, shall be willing to assist in restoring that prince, as our vassal and liegeman, let such person know, that we do hereby grant to him our licence and favour for the said undertaking.
                             
                            This invasion force would have comprised of many Welsh and Scottish Norman adventurers and it is only 100 years since the initial invasion of Britain by the Normans so the main bulk of the Norman Noble families would still be intact so it is resonable to speculate that the descendents of many of these would participate in this new invasion. The best way to proceed is to see how many DF23 and M222 people have Surnames associated with these territories occupied by these Normans both in Britain and Ireland which I will do when I get a chance.
                             
                            Seamus
                             
                             
                            Here are some of the most powerful Norman families that settled in Ireland
                             
                             
                            Gerald De Windsor of Lancashire - Fitzgerald, Fitzgibbon and Fitzmaurice (these family were related to Strongbow through marriage)
                             
                            William the Conquerer  Duke of Normandy - Butler
                             
                            Robert Earl of Cornwall - Bourke (related to William the Conquerer)
                             
                            Sir Walel de Ailiton - Dalton
                             
                            Robert Le Poer - Power
                             
                            Here is a comprehensive list of Norman Surnames in Ireland
                             
                            Archbold - Wicklow - Anglo-Norman
                            Archdeacon - Kilkenny - Norman, le Ercedekne, later Mac Ó Oda
                            Archer - Dublin, Kilkenny - Norman, le Archer
                            Athy - Kildare, Galway - Norman (Cambro, Anglo?)
                            Ayl(e)ward - Waterford, Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman
                            Babe - Louth - Anglo-Norman, le Babbe
                            Baldwin - Waterford - German-Flemish, Baldwyn
                            Balf(f)e - Meath - Anglo-Norman, balbh
                            Barbour - Dublin, Cork - Norman-French, barbier
                            Barnewall - Dublin, Meath - Norman, de Barneville
                            Barrett - Cork, Mayo - Cambro-Norman, Baroid or Bairéad
                            Barron - Waterford - Cambro-Norman, Fitzgerald derivative
                            Barry - Cork - Norman, de Barri
                            Beamish - Cork, Kerry - Norman-French, place-name Beaumais
                            Begg(s) - Antrim - Anglo-Norman (also a Scottish name)
                            Bellew - Louth, Meath - Norman, de Bel Eau (Beleawe)
                            Belton - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, de Welton
                            Bermingham - Offaly, Galway - Norman, de Bermingham
                            Berrill - Louth
                            Blake - Galway - Welsh - Caddell; one of 'Tribes of Galway'
                            Blanchfield - Kilkenny - Norman-French, de Blancheville
                            Bluett - Cork, Limerick
                            Bodkin - Galway - Anglo-Norman, Geraldine derivation (baudekin)
                            Bonfield - Clare, Limerick - Anglo-Norman, de Bonneville
                            Brannagh - Kilkenny, Wexford, Waterford - Welsh, Breathnach
                            Brett - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, possibly le Bret (e.g. Milo le Bret)
                            Broe - Leinster - Norman, de Berewa and de Bruth
                            Broy - Kilkenny - Norman, de Broy
                            Browne - Galway - Norman, le Brun (Brunach)
                            Bryan - Klikenny, Wexford - Anglo-Norman, personal name Brian
                            Burke - Galway, Mayo - Norman, de Burgo
                            Burnell - Dublin, Meath - Anglo-Norman, le Brun
                            Bury - Wicklow - Norman, de Bury
                            Busher - Waterford, Wexford - Norman-Flemish, Bouchier
                            Butler - Kilkenny, Tipperary - Norman, Fitzwalter (de Botiller)
                            Cadogan - Cork - Cambro, a Welsh forename (Cadwgan)
                            Campion - Kilkenny, Laois - Norman, de Champagnes (Champaynes)
                            Cantillon - Kerry - Norman, de Cauntelo
                            Cantwell - Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman, de Kentenall or de Kentwell
                            Carbery - Kildare - Norman (not the early lords of Carbury)
                            Carew - Cork, Tipperary - Cambro-Norman, de Carron or de Curio
                            Cashell - Louth - Anglo-Nomran, de Cashel
                            Chambers - Mayo - Anglo-Norman, de la Chambre
                            Clare, Clear - Kilkenny, Wexford - Norman, de Clare
                            Cody - Kilkenny, Wexford - Norman, Mac Ó Oda (see Archdeacon)
                            Cogan - Cork - Morman, de Cogan
                            Collier - Dublin, 14th century - Anglo-Norman, le Collier
                            Comyn - Dublin, Clare - Anglo-Norman, de Comines (also Scottish)
                            Comerford - Kilkenny, Waterford - Anglo, village in Staffordshire
                            Condon - Cork - Anglo-Norman, Caunteton
                            (Mac)Costello(e) Mayo - Norman, Mac Oisdealbh (son of Gilebrt de Nangle)
                            Courcy - Cork - Anglo-Norman, de Courcy
                            Croker - Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman, le Crocker
                            Cruise - Dublin, Meath - Anglo-Norman, de Cruys
                            Cullen - Wexford - Norman-Flemish
                            Cusack - Clare - Norman-Flemish, de Cussac
                            Cussen - Cork, Tipperary - Norman
                            Dalton - Clare, Meath - Anglo-Norman, D'Alton
                            Darcy - Meath - Anglo-Norman, D'Arcy
                            Dardis - Meath, Westmeath - Norman, D'Ardis
                            Daton - Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman, D'Auton
                            Day - Wexford - de Haye
                            Deane - Dublin, Kilkenny - de Denne
                            Delamer - Dublin - de la Mare
                            Denvir - Down - D'Anver of Norfolk
                            Devereux - Wexford - Norman, d'Evreux
                            Dillon - Westmeath - Anglo-Norman, Viscounts de Lion of Brittany
                            Dondon - Limerick - de Auno
                            Dowdall - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, Dovedale
                            Elvery - Kilkenny, Carlow - Anglo, Albrey?
                            Erley - Kilkenny, Tipperary - d'Erley
                            Esmonde - Wexford
                            Eustace - Kildare - Anglo-Norman
                            Everard - Meath, Tipperary - Anglo-Norman
                            Fagan - Dublin, Meath - Norman (Faodhagain in Gaelic)
                            Fallas - Fermanagh - Norman, de Falaise, town in Normandy
                            Fannin(g) - Limerick, Tipperary - Norman, personal name Panin
                            Fitzelle - Kerry - Norman
                            Fitzgerald - Cork, Kildare - Cambro-Norman, Gerald of Windsor
                            Fitzgibbon - Mayo - Norman, MacGibbon Burke
                            Fitzgibbon - Limerick - Cambro-Norman, The White Knight (FitzGerald)
                            Fitzhenry - Wexford
                            Fitzmaurice - Kerry - Cambro-Norman, Morrisey (FitzGerald)
                            Fitzmaurice - Mayo - Cambro-Norman, branch of Prendergast
                            Fitzsimmons - Cavan, Down, Mayo - Norman, Fitzsimon
                            Fitzstephens - Cork - Cambro-Norman, Robert FitzStephen
                            Flavelle - Armagh
                            Fleming - Meath - Flemish, Lord Slane
                            Forrestal - Kilkenny, Wexford - Anglo-Norman, le Forstal
                            Francis - Galway
                            Frizell - Cork, Limerick - Norman, le Frisel (of Friesland)
                            French - Wexford, Galway - Norman, de French
                            Freyne - Kilkenny - Norman, de la Freigne
                            Furlong - Wexford - Anglo, meaning a field or stadium
                            Ganter - Dublin
                            Garland, Gernon - Louth, Meath - Anglo-Norman, Roger de Gernon
                            Goold - Dublin, Cork
                            Gorham - Kerry
                            Goulding - Dublin, Cork - e.g. Nicholas Goldinges (1314)
                            Grace - Kilkenny - Cambro-Norman, Raymond le Gros
                            Granville - Kerry
                            Grennon - Meath - Norman, Robert de Grenan
                            Griffin - Kilkenny - Welsh, (also an Gaelic-Irish surname)
                            Griffith - Kilkenny - Welsh, Rhys ap Griffith (Gryffyd)
                            Hackett - Carlow, Kildare, Kilkenny - Norman, personal name
                            Hayden or Headon - Dublin, Wexford - Norman, de Heddon
                            Hayes or Hay - Wexford - Norman, de la Haye
                            Herbert - Kerry
                            Hollywood - Dublin
                            Hore - Wexford - Anglo-Norman, le Hore
                            Howlin, Holden - Kilkenny - Welsh, Huolyn
                            Hussey - Meath, Kerry - Norman, de Hose and de Hosey
                            Jordan - Mayo, Clare - Norman, Jordan d'Exeter (Mac Siurtain)
                            Joyce - Galway, Mayo - Welsh, de Jorse
                            Keating - Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford - Cambro-Norman, Cethyn
                            Kennefick - Dublin, Louth, Kilkenny, Cork - Welsh place name
                            Kiersey - Waterford
                            Lacy - Meath, Limerick - Anglo-Norman, de Lacy
                            Laffan - Wexford, Tipperary - Anglo-Norman, La Font or La Fin
                            Lambert - Wexford, Galway - Norman
                            Landy - Kilkenny, Tipperary - Norman, de la Launde
                            Lawless - Dublin, Galway - Anglo-Norman, Old English word laghles
                            Liston - Limerick - de Lexinton
                            Logan - Ulster - Norman, de Logan (also a Gaelic name)
                            Lucey - Cork - Norman, de Lucy
                            Lynch - Galway - de Lench
                            Lyons - Meath - Norman, de Leon or de Lyons (also a Gaelic name)
                            MacAndrew - Mayo - Norman, branch of the Barretts
                            MacCabe - Co Cavan - Scottish gallowglasses, 14th century
                            MacElligot - Kerry - Cambro-Norman, FitzElias (also Gaelic?)
                            MacHale - Mayo - Welsh, personal name Howell (also a Gaelic name)
                            MacQuillan - Antrim - Norman-Welsh, Lords of the Route, Hugelin
                            Mandeville - Tipperary - Norman, de Magna Villa
                            Mansfield - Waterford - de Mandeville
                            Marmion or Merriman - Dublin - Norman, Marmyoun
                            Marshall - Wexford - Mareschal
                            Maunsell - Tipperary, Limerick - Anglo-Norman, le mansel
                            Meere - Meath - Norman?, de la Mere (also Gaelic)
                            Merrick - Connacht - Welsh, Mac Mibhric (also an English name)
                            Meyler - Wexford - Cambro-Norman, Meyler FitzHenry
                            Mockler - Tipperary - Norman, Malcierc (Beauclerc)
                            Molyneux - Kerry, Ulster
                            Montagne - Armagh, Tyrone - de Montaigne
                            Morris - Galway - Norman, de Marries (de Marisco)
                            Morrissey - Waterford, Limerick, Cork - Norman, de Marisco
                            Mortimer - Meath - Norman
                            Montmorency - - de Monte Marisco (see Morris)
                            Mountain - Waterford - de la Montagne
                            Nangle or Nagle - Meath, Cork - d'Angulos (see Costelloe)
                            Neville - Wexford, Kilkenny - Norman, de Neville
                            Noble - Fermanagh - le Noble
                            Nugent - Cork, Westmeath - de Nogent
                            Oliver - Louth
                            Palmer - Kerry, Meath - Norman, old-French le paumer
                            Pender - see Prendergast
                            Pentony - Meath, Louth, Dublin
                            Peppard - Louth - Norman, de Pipard
                            Plunkett - Louth, Meath - Anglo-Norman, corruption of blanchet
                            Power - Waterford - Anglo-Norman, le Poer
                            Prendergast - Waterford, Mayo - Anglo-Norman, village in Pembrokeshire
                            Prior - Dublin, Limerick - Norman
                            Proud - Ormond
                            Punch - Kildare, Dublin - Norman, forename Poncius (Ponce)
                            Purcell - Tipperary, Kilkenny - Norman-French word porcel
                            Quilter - Kerry - le Cuilter
                            Redmond - Wexford - Norman, Alexander Raymond
                            Rice - Limerick, Kerry - Welsh, Rhys (also a Irish-Gaelic name)
                            Roberts or Rochford - Cork... - de Ridelsford
                            Roche - Wexford, Cork - Norman-Flemish, de la Roche (fitzGodebert)
                            Rochfort - Westmeath - Norman, de Rupefort
                            Rossiter - Wexford - Anglo-Norman
                            Russell - Down - Anglo-Norman (also an English name)
                            Sarsfield - Cork - Norman?, de Sharisfeld
                            Scriven - Dublin, Cork
                            Shortall - Kilkenny
                            Sinnott - Wexford, Kildare - Norman-Flemish
                            St Leger - Waterford, Cork
                            Savage - Down, Kilkenny
                            Scales - Limerick, Clare - Anglo-Norman
                            Scurlock - Wexford
                            Shinnors - Tipperary, Limerick - Anglo-Norman
                            Stackpoole - Clare, Dublin
                            Stapleton - Kilkenny, Tipperary
                            Staunton - Mayo - Anglo-Norman - Mac an Bhileadha (MacEvilly)
                            Taaffe - Louth, Sligo - Welsh, personal name David
                            Talbot - Dublin
                            Teeling - Meath
                            Tobin - Tipperary, Kilkenny - French-Norman, de St. Aubyn
                            Tuite - Meath, Westmeath - French-Norman, de Tiúit
                            Tyrrell - Westmeath
                            Ussher - Dublin - Norman, Nevill family
                            Veale - Waterford
                            Viniter - Munster - le Vineter
                            Wade - Waterford
                            Wall - Limerick, Waterford - Norman, du Val or de Wale or de Valle
                            Walsh - Kilkenny, Wexford - Breathnach (Breton), often denotes a Welsh origin
                            Warren - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, de la Varenne or de Warenne
                            Waring - Meath, Kilkenny, Down - Guarin
                            White - Limerick - le Blund
                            Woulfe - Kildare, Limerick, - Norman, le Woulf
                            Wyse - Waterford - le Wyse

                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                            From: Brian Swann <bps@...>
                            To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, 7 February 2013, 12:07
                            Subject: RE: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                             
                            Do you have any dates to hang around this semi-mystical Sir Waltero de Aliton?
                             
                            It will then help in deciding which wave of Anglo-Norman / French invaders into Ireland he went in with.  They were going in from 1169/70 onwards.
                             
                            But many came via Wales first.
                             
                            Brian
                             
                            From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Seamus O'Neill
                            Sent: 07 February 2013 00:00
                            To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                             
                             
                            Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.
                             
                            The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.
                             
                            The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 
                             
                            Seamus
                             
                             
                            O'Harts origin for Dalton
                             
                            THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that
                            which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a
                            Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which
                            he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid
                            the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately
                            retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the
                            ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having
                            signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the
                            invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,
                            and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits
                            of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now
                            called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,
                            which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper
                            Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of
                            Dalton.
                             
                             
                            From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                            To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                            Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                             
                            Hi Seamus, 
                            I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                            Sincerely,
                            Velma Dalton Boudreau

                            Sent from my IPad
                            On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                             
                            Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                             
                             
                            From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                            To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                            Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                            My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!SusanOn Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:> > Hi Susan,>  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.>  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.>  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.>  > Hope this helps,> Brian Porter> > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>> To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM> Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question>  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?> > Susan> > > ------------------------------------Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/<*> Your email settings:    Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join    (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email:    R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:    R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          • Tim Janzen
                            I would start with Barry Cunliffe’s book Britain Begins. I also like The Historical Atlas of the Celtic World by John Haywood and Barry Cunliffe. Tim Janzen
                            Message 14 of 30 , Feb 7, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment

                              I would start with Barry Cunliffe’s book Britain Begins.  I also like The Historical Atlas of the Celtic World by John Haywood and Barry Cunliffe.

                              Tim Janzen

                               

                              From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Timothy May
                              Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 5:22 AM
                              To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                               

                               

                              Can someone recommend books or resources on the history of the specific waves of the invaders?
                              Even a brief list of dates and places is a good place to start.  Interested in the Wales connection.

                              Thank you,

                              Tim

                            • Timothy May
                              Thank you for this history, very helpful. It explains the locations of people groups and DNA. Although I am not M222 or L21 or the other groups mentioned here
                              Message 15 of 30 , Feb 8, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Thank you for this history, very helpful.  It explains the locations of people groups and DNA.  Although I am not M222 or L21
                                or the other groups mentioned here I do have some ancestry dna connections with all these groups.

                                Tim

                                On 2/7/13 4:16 PM, Seamus O'Neill wrote:
                                 
                                Well the Saxons invaded Britain around 440 AD and with the native Celts in such a weakened state due to centuries of Roman oppression their victory was inevitable however it is recorded there was one group who fought  against the invaders for 40 years before they were eventually defeated when it was likely they followed their fellow Celts to Brittany. The influx of these Celts to Brittany is said to have transformed the area between the estuaries of the Rance and the Loir and drove out the existing inhabitants, changing the name of Amorica to Brittany and creating the area of Cornouaille named after Cornwall.
                                 
                                So what DNA signature did these Celts have, it is highly likely that a significant portion of these comprised of L21 people reflecting the various tribes displaced by the Romans, we know that the Royal Stuarts are DF41+ and if you look at the other people who have tested positive for this SNP we find Welsh names such as Price, Stephens, Samuels, Williams and Cooper and Scottish and Irish names of various origins which points to an Isles origin for this SNP. If the pedigree of Alan Fitz-flahald who was descended from the Seneschal of Dol of Brittany is to be believed then we have a link from Britain to Brittany and then back to Britain with William the Conquerer and we know that Alan Fitz-flahald  was granted extensive lands in Shropshire in the Welsh border regions, we also know that his Son Walter Fitz-Alan had extensive lands in Scotland  in Renfrewshire granted by David 1st of Scotland whose Sister was married to William the Conquerers Son Henry.
                                 
                                This David was a great advocate of Norman customs and ways and granted large tracts of land to European Religious orders and they founded many Abbeys on them, he also invited many of his friends who were the Sons of Norman nobles to Scotland. We also know that war was waged against the Norwegians in the North of Scotland and that many Norman Nobles fought in this war and were granted large tracts of land in repayment for their service in these wars. So what we have is a version of the plantations that took place in Ireland which would introduce Welsh and Cornish L21 type DNA into Scotland particularly the border region. So if the given French Norman pedigree for Dalton is correct then it is possible that this Dalton M222 cluster was introduced to the border region then and when we consider the French and Welsh DF23 names and the Caldwell DF23 cluster whose territory was also in Renfrewshire where we have already seen that Norman lands were owned by Walter Fitz-Alan. These Caldwell's are very close to the origin of M222.
                                 
                                 
                                So now we look to Ireland and the Norman invasion of 1169 which was a result of the plea for help by Dermot McMurrough to King Henry which is shown in the passage below from Henry's Patent   
                                 
                                Henry, King of England, duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and earl of Anjou, to all his liegemen, English, Norman, Welsh and Scotch, and to all the nations under his dominion, greeting. When these letters shall come into your hands, know ye, that we have received Dermod, Prince of Leinster, into the bosom of our grace and benevolence. Wherefore, whosoever, in the ample extent of all our territories, shall be willing to assist in restoring that prince, as our vassal and liegeman, let such person know, that we do hereby grant to him our licence and favour for the said undertaking.
                                 
                                This invasion force would have comprised of many Welsh and Scottish Norman adventurers and it is only 100 years since the initial invasion of Britain by the Normans so the main bulk of the Norman Noble families would still be intact so it is resonable to speculate that the descendents of many of these would participate in this new invasion. The best way to proceed is to see how many DF23 and M222 people have Surnames associated with these territories occupied by these Normans both in Britain and Ireland which I will do when I get a chance.
                                 
                                Seamus
                                 
                                 
                                Here are some of the most powerful Norman families that settled in Ireland
                                 
                                 
                                Gerald De Windsor of Lancashire - Fitzgerald, Fitzgibbon and Fitzmaurice (these family were related to Strongbow through marriage)
                                 
                                William the Conquerer  Duke of Normandy - Butler
                                 
                                Robert Earl of Cornwall - Bourke (related to William the Conquerer)
                                 
                                Sir Walel de Ailiton - Dalton
                                 
                                Robert Le Poer - Power
                                 
                                Here is a comprehensive list of Norman Surnames in Ireland
                                 
                                Archbold - Wicklow - Anglo-Norman
                                Archdeacon - Kilkenny - Norman, le Ercedekne, later Mac Ó Oda
                                Archer - Dublin, Kilkenny - Norman, le Archer
                                Athy - Kildare, Galway - Norman (Cambro, Anglo?)
                                Ayl(e)ward - Waterford, Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman
                                Babe - Louth - Anglo-Norman, le Babbe
                                Baldwin - Waterford - German-Flemish, Baldwyn
                                Balf(f)e - Meath - Anglo-Norman, balbh
                                Barbour - Dublin, Cork - Norman-French, barbier
                                Barnewall - Dublin, Meath - Norman, de Barneville
                                Barrett - Cork, Mayo - Cambro-Norman, Baroid or Bairéad
                                Barron - Waterford - Cambro-Norman, Fitzgerald derivative
                                Barry - Cork - Norman, de Barri
                                Beamish - Cork, Kerry - Norman-French, place-name Beaumais
                                Begg(s) - Antrim - Anglo-Norman (also a Scottish name)
                                Bellew - Louth, Meath - Norman, de Bel Eau (Beleawe)
                                Belton - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, de Welton
                                Bermingham - Offaly, Galway - Norman, de Bermingham
                                Berrill - Louth
                                Blake - Galway - Welsh - Caddell; one of 'Tribes of Galway'
                                Blanchfield - Kilkenny - Norman-French, de Blancheville
                                Bluett - Cork, Limerick
                                Bodkin - Galway - Anglo-Norman, Geraldine derivation (baudekin)
                                Bonfield - Clare, Limerick - Anglo-Norman, de Bonneville
                                Brannagh - Kilkenny, Wexford, Waterford - Welsh, Breathnach
                                Brett - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, possibly le Bret (e.g. Milo le Bret)
                                Broe - Leinster - Norman, de Berewa and de Bruth
                                Broy - Kilkenny - Norman, de Broy
                                Browne - Galway - Norman, le Brun (Brunach)
                                Bryan - Klikenny, Wexford - Anglo-Norman, personal name Brian
                                Burke - Galway, Mayo - Norman, de Burgo
                                Burnell - Dublin, Meath - Anglo-Norman, le Brun
                                Bury - Wicklow - Norman, de Bury
                                Busher - Waterford, Wexford - Norman-Flemish, Bouchier
                                Butler - Kilkenny, Tipperary - Norman, Fitzwalter (de Botiller)
                                Cadogan - Cork - Cambro, a Welsh forename (Cadwgan)
                                Campion - Kilkenny, Laois - Norman, de Champagnes (Champaynes)
                                Cantillon - Kerry - Norman, de Cauntelo
                                Cantwell - Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman, de Kentenall or de Kentwell
                                Carbery - Kildare - Norman (not the early lords of Carbury)
                                Carew - Cork, Tipperary - Cambro-Norman, de Carron or de Curio
                                Cashell - Louth - Anglo-Nomran, de Cashel
                                Chambers - Mayo - Anglo-Norman, de la Chambre
                                Clare, Clear - Kilkenny, Wexford - Norman, de Clare
                                Cody - Kilkenny, Wexford - Norman, Mac Ó Oda (see Archdeacon)
                                Cogan - Cork - Morman, de Cogan
                                Collier - Dublin, 14th century - Anglo-Norman, le Collier
                                Comyn - Dublin, Clare - Anglo-Norman, de Comines (also Scottish)
                                Comerford - Kilkenny, Waterford - Anglo, village in Staffordshire
                                Condon - Cork - Anglo-Norman, Caunteton
                                (Mac)Costello(e) Mayo - Norman, Mac Oisdealbh (son of Gilebrt de Nangle)
                                Courcy - Cork - Anglo-Norman, de Courcy
                                Croker - Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman, le Crocker
                                Cruise - Dublin, Meath - Anglo-Norman, de Cruys
                                Cullen - Wexford - Norman-Flemish
                                Cusack - Clare - Norman-Flemish, de Cussac
                                Cussen - Cork, Tipperary - Norman
                                Dalton - Clare, Meath - Anglo-Norman, D'Alton
                                Darcy - Meath - Anglo-Norman, D'Arcy
                                Dardis - Meath, Westmeath - Norman, D'Ardis
                                Daton - Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman, D'Auton
                                Day - Wexford - de Haye
                                Deane - Dublin, Kilkenny - de Denne
                                Delamer - Dublin - de la Mare
                                Denvir - Down - D'Anver of Norfolk
                                Devereux - Wexford - Norman, d'Evreux
                                Dillon - Westmeath - Anglo-Norman, Viscounts de Lion of Brittany
                                Dondon - Limerick - de Auno
                                Dowdall - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, Dovedale
                                Elvery - Kilkenny, Carlow - Anglo, Albrey?
                                Erley - Kilkenny, Tipperary - d'Erley
                                Esmonde - Wexford
                                Eustace - Kildare - Anglo-Norman
                                Everard - Meath, Tipperary - Anglo-Norman
                                Fagan - Dublin, Meath - Norman (Faodhagain in Gaelic)
                                Fallas - Fermanagh - Norman, de Falaise, town in Normandy
                                Fannin(g) - Limerick, Tipperary - Norman, personal name Panin
                                Fitzelle - Kerry - Norman
                                Fitzgerald - Cork, Kildare - Cambro-Norman, Gerald of Windsor
                                Fitzgibbon - Mayo - Norman, MacGibbon Burke
                                Fitzgibbon - Limerick - Cambro-Norman, The White Knight (FitzGerald)
                                Fitzhenry - Wexford
                                Fitzmaurice - Kerry - Cambro-Norman, Morrisey (FitzGerald)
                                Fitzmaurice - Mayo - Cambro-Norman, branch of Prendergast
                                Fitzsimmons - Cavan, Down, Mayo - Norman, Fitzsimon
                                Fitzstephens - Cork - Cambro-Norman, Robert FitzStephen
                                Flavelle - Armagh
                                Fleming - Meath - Flemish, Lord Slane
                                Forrestal - Kilkenny, Wexford - Anglo-Norman, le Forstal
                                Francis - Galway
                                Frizell - Cork, Limerick - Norman, le Frisel (of Friesland)
                                French - Wexford, Galway - Norman, de French
                                Freyne - Kilkenny - Norman, de la Freigne
                                Furlong - Wexford - Anglo, meaning a field or stadium
                                Ganter - Dublin
                                Garland, Gernon - Louth, Meath - Anglo-Norman, Roger de Gernon
                                Goold - Dublin, Cork
                                Gorham - Kerry
                                Goulding - Dublin, Cork - e.g. Nicholas Goldinges (1314)
                                Grace - Kilkenny - Cambro-Norman, Raymond le Gros
                                Granville - Kerry
                                Grennon - Meath - Norman, Robert de Grenan
                                Griffin - Kilkenny - Welsh, (also an Gaelic-Irish surname)
                                Griffith - Kilkenny - Welsh, Rhys ap Griffith (Gryffyd)
                                Hackett - Carlow, Kildare, Kilkenny - Norman, personal name
                                Hayden or Headon - Dublin, Wexford - Norman, de Heddon
                                Hayes or Hay - Wexford - Norman, de la Haye
                                Herbert - Kerry
                                Hollywood - Dublin
                                Hore - Wexford - Anglo-Norman, le Hore
                                Howlin, Holden - Kilkenny - Welsh, Huolyn
                                Hussey - Meath, Kerry - Norman, de Hose and de Hosey
                                Jordan - Mayo, Clare - Norman, Jordan d'Exeter (Mac Siurtain)
                                Joyce - Galway, Mayo - Welsh, de Jorse
                                Keating - Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford - Cambro-Norman, Cethyn
                                Kennefick - Dublin, Louth, Kilkenny, Cork - Welsh place name
                                Kiersey - Waterford
                                Lacy - Meath, Limerick - Anglo-Norman, de Lacy
                                Laffan - Wexford, Tipperary - Anglo-Norman, La Font or La Fin
                                Lambert - Wexford, Galway - Norman
                                Landy - Kilkenny, Tipperary - Norman, de la Launde
                                Lawless - Dublin, Galway - Anglo-Norman, Old English word laghles
                                Liston - Limerick - de Lexinton
                                Logan - Ulster - Norman, de Logan (also a Gaelic name)
                                Lucey - Cork - Norman, de Lucy
                                Lynch - Galway - de Lench
                                Lyons - Meath - Norman, de Leon or de Lyons (also a Gaelic name)
                                MacAndrew - Mayo - Norman, branch of the Barretts
                                MacCabe - Co Cavan - Scottish gallowglasses, 14th century
                                MacElligot - Kerry - Cambro-Norman, FitzElias (also Gaelic?)
                                MacHale - Mayo - Welsh, personal name Howell (also a Gaelic name)
                                MacQuillan - Antrim - Norman-Welsh, Lords of the Route, Hugelin
                                Mandeville - Tipperary - Norman, de Magna Villa
                                Mansfield - Waterford - de Mandeville
                                Marmion or Merriman - Dublin - Norman, Marmyoun
                                Marshall - Wexford - Mareschal
                                Maunsell - Tipperary, Limerick - Anglo-Norman, le mansel
                                Meere - Meath - Norman?, de la Mere (also Gaelic)
                                Merrick - Connacht - Welsh, Mac Mibhric (also an English name)
                                Meyler - Wexford - Cambro-Norman, Meyler FitzHenry
                                Mockler - Tipperary - Norman, Malcierc (Beauclerc)
                                Molyneux - Kerry, Ulster
                                Montagne - Armagh, Tyrone - de Montaigne
                                Morris - Galway - Norman, de Marries (de Marisco)
                                Morrissey - Waterford, Limerick, Cork - Norman, de Marisco
                                Mortimer - Meath - Norman
                                Montmorency - - de Monte Marisco (see Morris)
                                Mountain - Waterford - de la Montagne
                                Nangle or Nagle - Meath, Cork - d'Angulos (see Costelloe)
                                Neville - Wexford, Kilkenny - Norman, de Neville
                                Noble - Fermanagh - le Noble
                                Nugent - Cork, Westmeath - de Nogent
                                Oliver - Louth
                                Palmer - Kerry, Meath - Norman, old-French le paumer
                                Pender - see Prendergast
                                Pentony - Meath, Louth, Dublin
                                Peppard - Louth - Norman, de Pipard
                                Plunkett - Louth, Meath - Anglo-Norman, corruption of blanchet
                                Power - Waterford - Anglo-Norman, le Poer
                                Prendergast - Waterford, Mayo - Anglo-Norman, village in Pembrokeshire
                                Prior - Dublin, Limerick - Norman
                                Proud - Ormond
                                Punch - Kildare, Dublin - Norman, forename Poncius (Ponce)
                                Purcell - Tipperary, Kilkenny - Norman-French word porcel
                                Quilter - Kerry - le Cuilter
                                Redmond - Wexford - Norman, Alexander Raymond
                                Rice - Limerick, Kerry - Welsh, Rhys (also a Irish-Gaelic name)
                                Roberts or Rochford - Cork... - de Ridelsford
                                Roche - Wexford, Cork - Norman-Flemish, de la Roche (fitzGodebert)
                                Rochfort - Westmeath - Norman, de Rupefort
                                Rossiter - Wexford - Anglo-Norman
                                Russell - Down - Anglo-Norman (also an English name)
                                Sarsfield - Cork - Norman?, de Sharisfeld
                                Scriven - Dublin, Cork
                                Shortall - Kilkenny
                                Sinnott - Wexford, Kildare - Norman-Flemish
                                St Leger - Waterford, Cork
                                Savage - Down, Kilkenny
                                Scales - Limerick, Clare - Anglo-Norman
                                Scurlock - Wexford
                                Shinnors - Tipperary, Limerick - Anglo-Norman
                                Stackpoole - Clare, Dublin
                                Stapleton - Kilkenny, Tipperary
                                Staunton - Mayo - Anglo-Norman - Mac an Bhileadha (MacEvilly)
                                Taaffe - Louth, Sligo - Welsh, personal name David
                                Talbot - Dublin
                                Teeling - Meath
                                Tobin - Tipperary, Kilkenny - French-Norman, de St. Aubyn
                                Tuite - Meath, Westmeath - French-Norman, de Tiúit
                                Tyrrell - Westmeath
                                Ussher - Dublin - Norman, Nevill family
                                Veale - Waterford
                                Viniter - Munster - le Vineter
                                Wade - Waterford
                                Wall - Limerick, Waterford - Norman, du Val or de Wale or de Valle
                                Walsh - Kilkenny, Wexford - Breathnach (Breton), often denotes a Welsh origin
                                Warren - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, de la Varenne or de Warenne
                                Waring - Meath, Kilkenny, Down - Guarin
                                White - Limerick - le Blund
                                Woulfe - Kildare, Limerick, - Norman, le Woulf
                                Wyse - Waterford - le Wyse

                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                From: Brian Swann <bps@...>
                                To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, 7 February 2013, 12:07
                                Subject: RE: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                 
                                Do you have any dates to hang around this semi-mystical Sir Waltero de Aliton?
                                 
                                It will then help in deciding which wave of Anglo-Norman / French invaders into Ireland he went in with.  They were going in from 1169/70 onwards.
                                 
                                But many came via Wales first.
                                 
                                Brian
                                 
                                From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Seamus O'Neill
                                Sent: 07 February 2013 00:00
                                To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                 
                                 
                                Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.
                                 
                                The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.
                                 
                                The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 
                                 
                                Seamus
                                 
                                 
                                O'Harts origin for Dalton
                                 
                                THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that
                                which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a
                                Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which
                                he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid
                                the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately
                                retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the
                                ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having
                                signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the
                                invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,
                                and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits
                                of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now
                                called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,
                                which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper
                                Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of
                                Dalton.
                                 
                                 
                                From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                                To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                                Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                 
                                HiSeamus, 
                                I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                                Sincerely,
                                VelmaDalton Boudreau

                                Sent from my IPad
                                On2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...>wrote:
                                 
                                Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                                 
                                 
                                From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                                To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                                Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!SusanOn Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:> > Hi Susan,>  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.>  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.>  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.>  > Hope this helps,> Brian Porter> > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>>To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM> Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question>  > I just got the results back for deep clade

                                (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                              • Timothy May
                                Thanks, this helps. I have the latter and did not know about the former. Tim ... Thanks, this helps.  I have the latter and did not know about the former.
                                Message 16 of 30 , Feb 8, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thanks, this helps.  I have the latter and did not know about the former.

                                  Tim

                                  On 2/8/13 1:30 AM, Tim Janzen wrote:
                                   

                                  I would start with Barry Cunliffe’s book Britain Begins.  I also like The Historical Atlas of the Celtic World by John Haywood and Barry Cunliffe.

                                  Tim Janzen

                                   

                                  From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Timothy May
                                  Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 5:22 AM
                                  To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                                   

                                   

                                  Can someone recommend books or resources on the history of the specific waves of the invaders?
                                  Even a brief list of dates and places is a good place to start.  Interested in the Wales connection.

                                  Thank you,

                                  Tim


                                • Velma Boudreau
                                  Hi Seamus Not sure if M222 fits in with my Dalton s, as my uncle s terminal SNP is L2, not L21, or are they still somewhat close? The Dalton study has isolated
                                  Message 17 of 30 , Feb 8, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Seamus
                                    Not sure if M222 fits in with my Dalton's, as my uncle's terminal SNP is L2, not L21, or are they still somewhat close?
                                    The Dalton study has isolated 4+ distinct Dalton groups who are, as far as I can tell, not related. My family is not part of any of these larger isolated groups. There are Irish members in all of these groups, which seems to me that Waltero D. was only one of a number of Dalton progenitors.
                                    It would be interesting to compare the SNPs of these groups with your research.
                                    Thanks,
                                    Velma Dalton Boudreau

                                    Sent from my IPad

                                    On 2013-02-06, at 8:29 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:

                                     

                                    Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.
                                     
                                    The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick  
                                    so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.
                                     
                                    The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 
                                     
                                    Seamus
                                     
                                     
                                    O'Harts origin for Dalton
                                     
                                    THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that
                                    which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a
                                    Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which
                                    he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid
                                    the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately
                                    retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the
                                    ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having
                                    signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the
                                    invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,
                                    and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits
                                    of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now
                                    called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,
                                    which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper
                                    Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of
                                    Dalton.


                                    From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                                    To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                                    Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                     
                                    Hi Seamus, 
                                    I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                                    Sincerely,
                                    Velma Dalton Boudreau

                                    Sent from my IPad
                                    On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                                     
                                    Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                                     
                                     
                                    From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                                    To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                                    Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                    My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian! Susan On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote: > > Hi Susan, >  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C. >  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers. >  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49. >  > Hope this helps, > Brian Porter > > From: Susan Young <youngs@...> > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question >  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions? > > Susan > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                                  • Seamus O'Neill
                                    Hi Velma, looking at the Dalton project there are 74 people with the Dalton surname and of these 45 are M222 people which represents 61% of tested Daltons. The
                                    Message 18 of 30 , Feb 10, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Velma, looking at the Dalton project there are 74 people with the Dalton surname and of these 45 are M222 people which represents 61% of tested Daltons. The rest are the usual mix of 12b1, l1, R1b unmatched and a cluster of R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is the most significant group after M222. The thing about the Dalton M222 group is the amount of mutations at differant slow markers unlike much Irish M222 who come from a recent common ancestor. If this Norman Walter Dailton did indeed come to Ireland as O'Hart suggests then there were others as well because there are too many differant slow and medium marker mutations to be from a common ancestor in the last 800 years. It certainly looks like the Dalton surname is locational in origin and that the number of M222 Daltons that carry the surname is simply a representation of the dominant genepool of that area so coupled with DF23 it may be possible to pin down the origin of this SNP. 
                                       
                                      Seamus 
                                       
                                      From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                                      To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 18:01
                                      Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                       
                                      Hi Seamus
                                      Not sure if M222 fits in with my Dalton's, as my uncle's terminal SNP is L2, not L21, or are they still somewhat close?
                                      The Dalton study has isolated 4+ distinct Dalton groups who are, as far as I can tell, not related. My family is not part of any of these larger isolated groups. There are Irish members in all of these groups, which seems to me that Waltero D. was only one of a number of Dalton progenitors.
                                      It would be interesting to compare the SNPs of these groups with your research.
                                      Thanks,
                                      Velma Dalton Boudreau

                                      Sent from my IPad
                                      On 2013-02-06, at 8:29 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                                       
                                      Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.
                                       
                                      The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick  
                                      so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.
                                       
                                      The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 
                                       
                                      Seamus
                                       
                                       
                                      O'Harts origin for Dalton
                                       
                                      THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that
                                      which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a
                                      Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which
                                      he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid
                                      the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately
                                      retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the
                                      ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having
                                      signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the
                                      invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,
                                      and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits
                                      of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now
                                      called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,
                                      which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper
                                      Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of
                                      Dalton.


                                      From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                                      To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                                      Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                       
                                      Hi Seamus, 
                                      I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                                      Sincerely,
                                      Velma Dalton Boudreau

                                      Sent from my IPad
                                      On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                                       
                                      Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                                       
                                       
                                      From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                                      To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                                      Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                      My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian! Susan On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote: > > Hi Susan, >  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C. >  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers. >  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49. >  > Hope this helps, > Brian Porter > > From: Susan Young <youngs@...> > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question >  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions? > > Susan > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    • donnachellew@sbcglobal.net
                                      This question is for Mike who is in charge of the group. I just received an email that the results of my upgrade to 67 markers are in. I joined this group
                                      Message 19 of 30 , Feb 10, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        This question is for Mike who is in charge of the group.
                                        I just received an email that the results of my upgrade to 67 markers are in.
                                        I joined this group without knowing enough and now with the upgrade to 67 markers I still don't know enough.  Guess I should drop out.
                                        Donna
                                         
                                        In a message dated 2/10/2013 5:06:43 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, oneillabu@... writes:
                                         

                                        Hi Velma, looking at the Dalton project there are 74 people with the Dalton surname and of these 45 are M222 people which represents 61% of tested Daltons. The rest are the usual mix of 12b1, l1, R1b unmatched and a cluster of R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is the most significant group after M222. The thing about the Dalton M222 group is the amount of mutations at differant slow markers unlike much Irish M222 who come from a recent common ancestor. If this Norman Walter Dailton did indeed come to Ireland as O'Hart suggests then there were others as well because there are too many differant slow and medium marker mutations to be from a common ancestor in the last 800 years. It certainly looks like the Dalton surname is locational in origin and that the number of M222 Daltons that carry the surname is simply a representation of the dominant genepool of that area so coupled with DF23 it may be possible to pin down the origin of this SNP. 
                                         
                                        Seamus 
                                         
                                        From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                                        To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 18:01
                                        Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                         
                                        Hi Seamus
                                        Not sure if M222 fits in with my Dalton's, as my uncle's terminal SNP is L2, not L21, or are they still somewhat close?
                                        The Dalton study has isolated 4+ distinct Dalton groups who are, as far as I can tell, not related. My family is not part of any of these larger isolated groups. There are Irish members in all of these groups, which seems to me that Waltero D. was only one of a number of Dalton progenitors.
                                        It would be interesting to compare the SNPs of these groups with your research.
                                        Thanks,
                                        Velma Dalton Boudreau

                                        Sent from my IPad
                                        On 2013-02-06, at 8:29 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                                         
                                        Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.
                                         
                                        The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick  
                                        so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.
                                         
                                        The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 
                                         
                                        Seamus
                                         
                                         
                                        O'Harts origin for Dalton
                                         
                                        THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that
                                        which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a
                                        Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which
                                        he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid
                                        the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately
                                        retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the
                                        ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having
                                        signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the
                                        invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,
                                        and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits
                                        of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now
                                        called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,
                                        which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper
                                        Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of
                                        Dalton.


                                        From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                                        To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                                        Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                         
                                        Hi Seamus, 
                                        I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                                        Sincerely,
                                        Velma Dalton Boudreau

                                        Sent from my IPad
                                        On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                                         
                                        Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                                         
                                         
                                        From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                                        To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                                        Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                        My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian! Susan On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote: > > Hi Susan, >  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C. >  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers. >  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49. >  > Hope this helps, > Brian Porter > > From: Susan Young <youngs@...> > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question >  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions? > > Susan > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                                      • John McDonald
                                        Can someone help me with a question? My 1st cousin and I are different at  the CDY marker while my older 2nd cousin and I are the same thru all 111 markers.
                                        Message 20 of 30 , Apr 28, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Can someone help me with a question? My 1st cousin and I are different at  the CDY marker while my older 2nd cousin and I are the same thru all 111 markers. Any idea if this is normal?
                                           
                                           
                                          DYS724Palindromic; also known as CDY
                                           

                                          John McDonald
                                          FT 246556, Y AG9BF
                                          R1b-P310>L21>DF13>L513>L69.5*
                                          H3b1b1
                                        • Tim Janzen
                                          What you describe can certainly happen. All it takes is a mutation in your first cousin or in his father. Situations like this are fairly common. Tim Janzen
                                          Message 21 of 30 , Apr 28, 2013
                                          • 0 Attachment

                                            What you describe can certainly happen.  All it takes is a mutation in your first cousin or in his father.  Situations like this are fairly common.

                                            Tim Janzen

                                             

                                            From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John McDonald
                                            Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 8:43 PM
                                            To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                                             

                                             

                                            Can someone help me with a question? My 1st cousin and I are different at  the CDY marker while my older 2nd cousin and I are the same thru all 111 markers. Any idea if this is normal?

                                             

                                             

                                            DYS724

                                            Palindromic; also known as CDY

                                             


                                            John McDonald
                                            FT 246556, Y AG9BF
                                            R1b-P310>L21>DF13>L513>L69.5*
                                            H3b1b1

                                          • Stephanie Ray
                                            I would consider a mutation between family members to be a very valuable marker for that particular line, and am hoping to upgrade members of my clan to 111
                                            Message 22 of 30 , Apr 29, 2013
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              I would consider a mutation between family members to be a very valuable marker for that particular line, and am hoping to upgrade members of my clan to 111 markers in hopes of finding some differences.
                                               
                                              My understanding is that you are not so likely to get differences between 37 and 67 markers, more likely between 67 and 111 markers (faster mutating markers, I take it).
                                               
                                              Best regards,
                                              Stephanie

                                              On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 8:43 PM, John McDonald <johntmcdonald@...> wrote:
                                               

                                              Can someone help me with a question? My 1st cousin and I are different at  the CDY marker while my older 2nd cousin and I are the same thru all 111 markers. Any idea if this is normal?
                                               
                                               
                                              DYS724Palindromic; also known as CDY
                                               

                                              John McDonald
                                              FT 246556, Y AG9BF
                                              R1b-P310>L21>DF13>L513>L69.5*
                                              H3b1b1


                                            • John McDonald
                                              Thank you... John McDonald FT 246556, Y AG9BF R1b-P312 L21 DF13 L513 L69.5* DYS464x cccg H3b1b1 ... Thank you... John McDonald FT 246556, Y AG9BF
                                              Message 23 of 30 , Apr 30, 2013
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Thank you...
                                                 
                                                John McDonald
                                                FT 246556, Y AG9BF
                                                R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513>L69.5*
                                                DYS464x cccg
                                                H3b1b1

                                                From: Stephanie Ray <stephanieray52@...>
                                                To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 10:19 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                                 
                                                I would consider a mutation between family members to be a very valuable marker for that particular line, and am hoping to upgrade members of my clan to 111 markers in hopes of finding some differences.
                                                 
                                                My understanding is that you are not so likely to get differences between 37 and 67 markers, more likely between 67 and 111 markers (faster mutating markers, I take it).
                                                 
                                                Best regards,
                                                Stephanie
                                                On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 8:43 PM, John McDonald <johntmcdonald@...> wrote:
                                                 
                                                Can someone help me with a question? My 1st cousin and I are different at  the CDY marker while my older 2nd cousin and I are the same thru all 111 markers. Any idea if this is normal?
                                                 
                                                 
                                                DYS724Palindromic; also known as CDY
                                                 
                                                John McDonald FT 246556, Y AG9BF R1b-P310>L21>DF13>L513>L69.5* H3b1b1
                                              • Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.