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  • Susan Young
    I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father s kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP s downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is
    Message 1 of 30 , Jan 13, 2013
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      I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?

      Susan
    • zx_cajun_tn@yahoo.com
      Hi Susan,   I looked at kit 79710 in Mike s L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.   Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 &
      Message 2 of 30 , Jan 14, 2013
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        Hi Susan,
         
        I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.
         
        Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.
         
        I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.
         
        Hope this helps,
        Brian Porter

        From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
        To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM
        Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question
         
        I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?

        Susan

      • Susan Young
        Thanks so much, Brian! I appreciate the help. Susan
        Message 3 of 30 , Jan 14, 2013
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          Thanks so much, Brian! I appreciate the help.

          Susan

          On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:

          >
          > Hi Susan,
          >
          > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet. 79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.
          >
          > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.
          >
          > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.
          >
          > Hope this helps,
          > Brian Porter
          >
          > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
          > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM
          > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question
          >
          > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?
          >
          > Susan
          >
          >
          >
        • Susan Young
          My dad s kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I ve already
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 6, 2013
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            My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!

            Susan

            On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:

            >
            > Hi Susan,
            >
            > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet. 79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.
            >
            > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.
            >
            > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.
            >
            > Hope this helps,
            > Brian Porter
            >
            > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
            > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM
            > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question
            >
            > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?
            >
            > Susan
            >
            >
            >
          • brian_p0rter
            That s awesome Susan! I m getting good at DNA predictions! Glad I could help.   Brian Porter Project Administrator Porter Surname DNA Project
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 6, 2013
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              That's awesome Susan!

              I'm getting good at DNA predictions! Glad I could help.
               
              Brian Porter
              Project Administrator
              Porter Surname DNA Project
               
               

              From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
              To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 2:12 PM
              Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

              My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!

              Susan

              On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:

              >
              > Hi Susan,

              > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.

              > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.

              > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.

              > Hope this helps,
              > Brian Porter
              >
              > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
              > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM
              > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question

              > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?
              >
              > Susan
              >
              >
              >



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            • Seamus O'Neill
              Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 6, 2013
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                Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                 
                 
                From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!

                Susan

                On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:

                >
                > Hi Susan,

                > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.

                > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.

                > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.

                > Hope this helps,
                > Brian Porter
                >
                > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM
                > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?
                >
                > Susan
                >
                >
                >



                ------------------------------------

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              • Susan Young
                That s very interesting, Seamus, thanks for the additional info! Just FYI, the surname is Carll, Lowden was his first name. I am his 4th g-granddaughter. Susan
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 6, 2013
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                  That's very interesting, Seamus, thanks for the additional info!

                  Just FYI, the surname is Carll, Lowden was his first name. I am his 4th g-granddaughter.

                  Susan

                  On Feb 6, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Seamus O'Neill wrote:

                  >
                  > Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                  > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                  > Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                  >
                  > My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!
                  >
                  > Susan
                  >
                  > On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Hi Susan,
                  > >
                  > > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet. 79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.
                  > >
                  > > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.
                  > >
                  > > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.
                  > >
                  > > Hope this helps,
                  > > Brian Porter
                  > >
                  > > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                  > > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM
                  > > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                  > >
                  > > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?
                  > >
                  > > Susan
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Velma Boudreau
                  Hi Seamus, I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle s kit # is 129628 tested with
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 6, 2013
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                    Hi Seamus, 
                    I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                    Sincerely,
                    Velma Dalton Boudreau

                    Sent from my IPad

                    On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:

                     

                    Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                     
                     
                    From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                    To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                    Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                    My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!

                    Susan

                    On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:

                    >
                    > Hi Susan,

                    > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.

                    > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.

                    > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.

                    > Hope this helps,
                    > Brian Porter
                    >
                    > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                    > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM
                    > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                    > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?
                    >
                    > Susan
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    ------------------------------------

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                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/

                    <*> Your email settings:
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                  • Seamus O'Neill
                    Below is O Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 6, 2013
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                      Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.
                       
                      The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick  
                      so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.
                       
                      The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 
                       
                      Seamus
                       
                       
                      O'Harts origin for Dalton
                       
                      THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that
                      which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a
                      Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which
                      he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid
                      the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately
                      retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the
                      ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having
                      signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the
                      invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,
                      and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits
                      of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now
                      called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,
                      which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper
                      Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of
                      Dalton.


                      From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                      To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                      Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                       
                      Hi Seamus, 
                      I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                      Sincerely,
                      Velma Dalton Boudreau

                      Sent from my IPad
                      On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                       
                      Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                       
                       
                      From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                      To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                      Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                      My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian! Susan On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote: > > Hi Susan, >  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C. >  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers. >  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49. >  > Hope this helps, > Brian Porter > > From: Susan Young <youngs@...> > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question >  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions? > > Susan > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Velma Boudreau
                      Thanks for that Seamus. Velma Dalton Boudreau Sent from my IPad
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 6, 2013
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                        Thanks for that Seamus.

                        Velma Dalton Boudreau

                        Sent from my IPad

                        On 2013-02-06, at 8:29 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:

                         

                        Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.
                         
                        The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick  
                        so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.
                         
                        The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 
                         
                        Seamus
                         
                         
                        O'Harts origin for Dalton
                         
                        THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that
                        which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a
                        Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which
                        he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid
                        the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately
                        retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the
                        ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having
                        signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the
                        invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,
                        and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits
                        of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now
                        called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,
                        which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper
                        Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of
                        Dalton.


                        From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                        To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                        Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                         
                        Hi Seamus, 
                        I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                        Sincerely,
                        Velma Dalton Boudreau

                        Sent from my IPad
                        On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                         
                        Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                         
                         
                        From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                        To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                        Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                        My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian! Susan On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote: > > Hi Susan, >  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C. >  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers. >  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49. >  > Hope this helps, > Brian Porter > > From: Susan Young <youngs@...> > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question >  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions? > > Susan > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                      • Brian Swann
                        Do you have any dates to hang around this semi-mystical Sir Waltero de Aliton? It will then help in deciding which wave of Anglo-Norman / French invaders into
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 7, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment

                          Do you have any dates to hang around this semi-mystical Sir Waltero de Aliton?

                           

                          It will then help in deciding which wave of Anglo-Norman / French invaders into Ireland he went in with.  They were going in from 1169/70 onwards.

                           

                          But many came via Wales first.

                           

                          Brian

                           

                          From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Seamus O'Neill
                          Sent: 07 February 2013 00:00
                          To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                           

                           

                          Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.

                           

                          The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.

                           

                          The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 

                           

                          Seamus

                           

                           

                          O'Harts origin for Dalton

                           

                          THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that

                          which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a

                          Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which

                          he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid

                          the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately

                          retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the

                          ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having

                          signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the

                          invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,

                          and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits

                          of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now

                          called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,

                          which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper

                          Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of

                          Dalton.

                           

                           

                          From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                          To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                          Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                           

                          Hi Seamus, 

                          I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

                          Sincerely,

                          Velma Dalton Boudreau


                          Sent from my IPad

                          On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:

                           

                          Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.

                           

                           

                          From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                          To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                          Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                          My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!SusanOn Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:> > Hi Susan,>  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.>  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.>  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.>  > Hope this helps,> Brian Porter> > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>> To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM> Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question>  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?> > Susan> > > ------------------------------------Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/<*> Your email settings:    Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join    (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email:    R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:    R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                        • Timothy May
                          Can someone recommend books or resources on the history of the specific waves of the invaders? Even a brief list of dates and places is a good place to start.
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 7, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Can someone recommend books or resources on the history of the specific waves of the invaders?
                            Even a brief list of dates and places is a good place to start.  Interested in the Wales connection.

                            Thank you,

                            Tim


                            On 2/7/13 6:07 AM, Brian Swann wrote:
                             

                            Do you have any dates to hang around this semi-mystical Sir Waltero de Aliton?

                             

                            It will then help in deciding which wave of Anglo-Norman / French invaders into Ireland he went in with.  They were going in from 1169/70 onwards.

                             

                            But many came via Wales first.

                             

                            Brian

                             

                            From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Seamus O'Neill
                            Sent: 07 February 2013 00:00
                            To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                             

                             

                            Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.

                             

                            The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.

                             

                            The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 

                             

                            Seamus

                             

                             

                            O'Harts origin for Dalton

                             

                            THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that

                            which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a

                            Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which

                            he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid

                            the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately

                            retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the

                            ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having

                            signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the

                            invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,

                            and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits

                            of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now

                            called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,

                            which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper

                            Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of

                            Dalton.

                             

                             

                            From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                            To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                            Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                             

                            Hi Seamus, 

                            I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

                            Sincerely,

                            Velma Dalton Boudreau


                            Sent from my IPad

                            On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:

                             

                            Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.

                             

                             

                            From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                            To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                            Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                            My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!SusanOn Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:> > Hi Susan,>  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.>  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.>  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.>  > Hope this helps,> Brian Porter> > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>> To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM> Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question>  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?> > Susan> > > ------------------------------------Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/<*> Your email settings:    Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join    (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email:    R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:    R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                          • Timothy May
                            Don t let this sideline the Dalton / de Aliton discussion. Similar topics in the discussion raised my interest, hence the question. Tim
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 7, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Don't let this sideline the Dalton / de Aliton discussion.  Similar topics in the discussion
                              raised my interest, hence the question.

                              Tim

                              On 2/7/13 7:22 AM, Timothy May wrote:
                               

                              Can someone recommend books or resources on the history of the specific waves of the invaders?
                              Even a brief list of dates and places is a good place to start.  Interested in the Wales connection.

                              Thank you,

                              Tim


                              On 2/7/13 6:07 AM, Brian Swann wrote:
                               

                              Do you have any dates to hang around this semi-mystical Sir Waltero de Aliton?

                               

                              It will then help in deciding which wave of Anglo-Norman / French invaders into Ireland he went in with.  They were going in from 1169/70 onwards.

                               

                              But many came via Wales first.

                               

                              Brian

                               

                              From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Seamus O'Neill
                              Sent: 07 February 2013 00:00
                              To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                               

                               

                              Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.

                               

                              The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.

                               

                              The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 

                               

                              Seamus

                               

                               

                              O'Hartsorigin for Dalton

                               

                              THEBEisno certain account of the origin of this family, other than that

                              which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a

                              Frenchman,aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which

                              he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid

                              the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately

                              retiredinto Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the

                              ancientnatives and their invading English enemies; where, having

                              signalizedhis great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the

                              invader'sside, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,

                              and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits

                              of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now

                              called"Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,

                              whichhis posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper

                              Cromwell.This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of

                              Dalton.

                               

                               

                              From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                              To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                              Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                               

                              Hi Seamus, 

                              I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

                              Sincerely,

                              Velma Dalton Boudreau


                              Sent from my IPad

                              On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...>wrote:

                               

                              Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.

                               

                               

                              From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                              To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                              Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                              Mydad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!SusanOn Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:> > Hi Susan,>  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.>  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.>  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.>  > Hope this helps,> Brian Porter> > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>>To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM> Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question>  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?> > Susan> > > ------------------------------------Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/<*>Your email settings:    Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join    (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email:    R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com<*>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:    R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<*>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                          • Seamus O'Neill
                            Well the Saxons invaded Britain around 440 AD and with the native Celts in such a weakened state due to centuries of Roman oppression their victory was
                            Message 14 of 30 , Feb 7, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Well the Saxons invaded Britain around 440 AD and with the native Celts in such a weakened state due to centuries of Roman oppression their victory was inevitable however it is recorded there was one group who fought  against the invaders for 40 years before they were eventually defeated when it was likely they followed their fellow Celts to Brittany. The influx of these Celts to Brittany is said to have transformed the area between the estuaries of the Rance and the Loir and drove out the existing inhabitants, changing the name of Amorica to Brittany and creating the area of Cornouaille named after Cornwall.
                               
                              So what DNA signature did these Celts have, it is highly likely that a significant portion of these comprised of L21 people reflecting the various tribes displaced by the Romans, we know that the Royal Stuarts are DF41+ and if you look at the other people who have tested positive for this SNP we find Welsh names such as Price, Stephens, Samuels, Williams and Cooper and Scottish and Irish names of various origins which points to an Isles origin for this SNP. If the pedigree of Alan Fitz-flahald who was descended from the Seneschal of Dol of Brittany is to be believed then we have a link from Britain to Brittany and then back to Britain with William the Conquerer and we know that Alan Fitz-flahald  was granted extensive lands in Shropshire in the Welsh border regions, we also know that his Son Walter Fitz-Alan had extensive lands in Scotland  in Renfrewshire granted by David 1st of Scotland whose Sister was married to William the Conquerers Son Henry.
                               
                              This David was a great advocate of Norman customs and ways and granted large tracts of land to European Religious orders and they founded many Abbeys on them, he also invited many of his friends who were the Sons of Norman nobles to Scotland. We also know that war was waged against the Norwegians in the North of Scotland and that many Norman Nobles fought in this war and were granted large tracts of land in repayment for their service in these wars. So what we have is a version of the plantations that took place in Ireland which would introduce Welsh and Cornish L21 type DNA into Scotland particularly the border region. So if the given French Norman pedigree for Dalton is correct then it is possible that this Dalton M222 cluster was introduced to the border region then and when we consider the French and Welsh DF23 names and the Caldwell DF23 cluster whose territory was also in Renfrewshire where we have already seen that Norman lands were owned by Walter Fitz-Alan. These Caldwell's are very close to the origin of M222.
                               
                               
                              So now we look to Ireland and the Norman invasion of 1169 which was a result of the plea for help by Dermot McMurrough to King Henry which is shown in the passage below from Henry's Patent   
                               
                              Henry, King of England, duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and earl of Anjou, to all his liegemen, English, Norman, Welsh and Scotch, and to all the nations under his dominion, greeting. When these letters shall come into your hands, know ye, that we have received Dermod, Prince of Leinster, into the bosom of our grace and benevolence. Wherefore, whosoever, in the ample extent of all our territories, shall be willing to assist in restoring that prince, as our vassal and liegeman, let such person know, that we do hereby grant to him our licence and favour for the said undertaking.
                               
                              This invasion force would have comprised of many Welsh and Scottish Norman adventurers and it is only 100 years since the initial invasion of Britain by the Normans so the main bulk of the Norman Noble families would still be intact so it is resonable to speculate that the descendents of many of these would participate in this new invasion. The best way to proceed is to see how many DF23 and M222 people have Surnames associated with these territories occupied by these Normans both in Britain and Ireland which I will do when I get a chance.
                               
                              Seamus
                               
                               
                              Here are some of the most powerful Norman families that settled in Ireland
                               
                               
                              Gerald De Windsor of Lancashire - Fitzgerald, Fitzgibbon and Fitzmaurice (these family were related to Strongbow through marriage)
                               
                              William the Conquerer  Duke of Normandy - Butler
                               
                              Robert Earl of Cornwall - Bourke (related to William the Conquerer)
                               
                              Sir Walel de Ailiton - Dalton
                               
                              Robert Le Poer - Power
                               
                              Here is a comprehensive list of Norman Surnames in Ireland
                               
                              Archbold - Wicklow - Anglo-Norman
                              Archdeacon - Kilkenny - Norman, le Ercedekne, later Mac Ó Oda
                              Archer - Dublin, Kilkenny - Norman, le Archer
                              Athy - Kildare, Galway - Norman (Cambro, Anglo?)
                              Ayl(e)ward - Waterford, Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman
                              Babe - Louth - Anglo-Norman, le Babbe
                              Baldwin - Waterford - German-Flemish, Baldwyn
                              Balf(f)e - Meath - Anglo-Norman, balbh
                              Barbour - Dublin, Cork - Norman-French, barbier
                              Barnewall - Dublin, Meath - Norman, de Barneville
                              Barrett - Cork, Mayo - Cambro-Norman, Baroid or Bairéad
                              Barron - Waterford - Cambro-Norman, Fitzgerald derivative
                              Barry - Cork - Norman, de Barri
                              Beamish - Cork, Kerry - Norman-French, place-name Beaumais
                              Begg(s) - Antrim - Anglo-Norman (also a Scottish name)
                              Bellew - Louth, Meath - Norman, de Bel Eau (Beleawe)
                              Belton - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, de Welton
                              Bermingham - Offaly, Galway - Norman, de Bermingham
                              Berrill - Louth
                              Blake - Galway - Welsh - Caddell; one of 'Tribes of Galway'
                              Blanchfield - Kilkenny - Norman-French, de Blancheville
                              Bluett - Cork, Limerick
                              Bodkin - Galway - Anglo-Norman, Geraldine derivation (baudekin)
                              Bonfield - Clare, Limerick - Anglo-Norman, de Bonneville
                              Brannagh - Kilkenny, Wexford, Waterford - Welsh, Breathnach
                              Brett - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, possibly le Bret (e.g. Milo le Bret)
                              Broe - Leinster - Norman, de Berewa and de Bruth
                              Broy - Kilkenny - Norman, de Broy
                              Browne - Galway - Norman, le Brun (Brunach)
                              Bryan - Klikenny, Wexford - Anglo-Norman, personal name Brian
                              Burke - Galway, Mayo - Norman, de Burgo
                              Burnell - Dublin, Meath - Anglo-Norman, le Brun
                              Bury - Wicklow - Norman, de Bury
                              Busher - Waterford, Wexford - Norman-Flemish, Bouchier
                              Butler - Kilkenny, Tipperary - Norman, Fitzwalter (de Botiller)
                              Cadogan - Cork - Cambro, a Welsh forename (Cadwgan)
                              Campion - Kilkenny, Laois - Norman, de Champagnes (Champaynes)
                              Cantillon - Kerry - Norman, de Cauntelo
                              Cantwell - Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman, de Kentenall or de Kentwell
                              Carbery - Kildare - Norman (not the early lords of Carbury)
                              Carew - Cork, Tipperary - Cambro-Norman, de Carron or de Curio
                              Cashell - Louth - Anglo-Nomran, de Cashel
                              Chambers - Mayo - Anglo-Norman, de la Chambre
                              Clare, Clear - Kilkenny, Wexford - Norman, de Clare
                              Cody - Kilkenny, Wexford - Norman, Mac Ó Oda (see Archdeacon)
                              Cogan - Cork - Morman, de Cogan
                              Collier - Dublin, 14th century - Anglo-Norman, le Collier
                              Comyn - Dublin, Clare - Anglo-Norman, de Comines (also Scottish)
                              Comerford - Kilkenny, Waterford - Anglo, village in Staffordshire
                              Condon - Cork - Anglo-Norman, Caunteton
                              (Mac)Costello(e) Mayo - Norman, Mac Oisdealbh (son of Gilebrt de Nangle)
                              Courcy - Cork - Anglo-Norman, de Courcy
                              Croker - Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman, le Crocker
                              Cruise - Dublin, Meath - Anglo-Norman, de Cruys
                              Cullen - Wexford - Norman-Flemish
                              Cusack - Clare - Norman-Flemish, de Cussac
                              Cussen - Cork, Tipperary - Norman
                              Dalton - Clare, Meath - Anglo-Norman, D'Alton
                              Darcy - Meath - Anglo-Norman, D'Arcy
                              Dardis - Meath, Westmeath - Norman, D'Ardis
                              Daton - Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman, D'Auton
                              Day - Wexford - de Haye
                              Deane - Dublin, Kilkenny - de Denne
                              Delamer - Dublin - de la Mare
                              Denvir - Down - D'Anver of Norfolk
                              Devereux - Wexford - Norman, d'Evreux
                              Dillon - Westmeath - Anglo-Norman, Viscounts de Lion of Brittany
                              Dondon - Limerick - de Auno
                              Dowdall - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, Dovedale
                              Elvery - Kilkenny, Carlow - Anglo, Albrey?
                              Erley - Kilkenny, Tipperary - d'Erley
                              Esmonde - Wexford
                              Eustace - Kildare - Anglo-Norman
                              Everard - Meath, Tipperary - Anglo-Norman
                              Fagan - Dublin, Meath - Norman (Faodhagain in Gaelic)
                              Fallas - Fermanagh - Norman, de Falaise, town in Normandy
                              Fannin(g) - Limerick, Tipperary - Norman, personal name Panin
                              Fitzelle - Kerry - Norman
                              Fitzgerald - Cork, Kildare - Cambro-Norman, Gerald of Windsor
                              Fitzgibbon - Mayo - Norman, MacGibbon Burke
                              Fitzgibbon - Limerick - Cambro-Norman, The White Knight (FitzGerald)
                              Fitzhenry - Wexford
                              Fitzmaurice - Kerry - Cambro-Norman, Morrisey (FitzGerald)
                              Fitzmaurice - Mayo - Cambro-Norman, branch of Prendergast
                              Fitzsimmons - Cavan, Down, Mayo - Norman, Fitzsimon
                              Fitzstephens - Cork - Cambro-Norman, Robert FitzStephen
                              Flavelle - Armagh
                              Fleming - Meath - Flemish, Lord Slane
                              Forrestal - Kilkenny, Wexford - Anglo-Norman, le Forstal
                              Francis - Galway
                              Frizell - Cork, Limerick - Norman, le Frisel (of Friesland)
                              French - Wexford, Galway - Norman, de French
                              Freyne - Kilkenny - Norman, de la Freigne
                              Furlong - Wexford - Anglo, meaning a field or stadium
                              Ganter - Dublin
                              Garland, Gernon - Louth, Meath - Anglo-Norman, Roger de Gernon
                              Goold - Dublin, Cork
                              Gorham - Kerry
                              Goulding - Dublin, Cork - e.g. Nicholas Goldinges (1314)
                              Grace - Kilkenny - Cambro-Norman, Raymond le Gros
                              Granville - Kerry
                              Grennon - Meath - Norman, Robert de Grenan
                              Griffin - Kilkenny - Welsh, (also an Gaelic-Irish surname)
                              Griffith - Kilkenny - Welsh, Rhys ap Griffith (Gryffyd)
                              Hackett - Carlow, Kildare, Kilkenny - Norman, personal name
                              Hayden or Headon - Dublin, Wexford - Norman, de Heddon
                              Hayes or Hay - Wexford - Norman, de la Haye
                              Herbert - Kerry
                              Hollywood - Dublin
                              Hore - Wexford - Anglo-Norman, le Hore
                              Howlin, Holden - Kilkenny - Welsh, Huolyn
                              Hussey - Meath, Kerry - Norman, de Hose and de Hosey
                              Jordan - Mayo, Clare - Norman, Jordan d'Exeter (Mac Siurtain)
                              Joyce - Galway, Mayo - Welsh, de Jorse
                              Keating - Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford - Cambro-Norman, Cethyn
                              Kennefick - Dublin, Louth, Kilkenny, Cork - Welsh place name
                              Kiersey - Waterford
                              Lacy - Meath, Limerick - Anglo-Norman, de Lacy
                              Laffan - Wexford, Tipperary - Anglo-Norman, La Font or La Fin
                              Lambert - Wexford, Galway - Norman
                              Landy - Kilkenny, Tipperary - Norman, de la Launde
                              Lawless - Dublin, Galway - Anglo-Norman, Old English word laghles
                              Liston - Limerick - de Lexinton
                              Logan - Ulster - Norman, de Logan (also a Gaelic name)
                              Lucey - Cork - Norman, de Lucy
                              Lynch - Galway - de Lench
                              Lyons - Meath - Norman, de Leon or de Lyons (also a Gaelic name)
                              MacAndrew - Mayo - Norman, branch of the Barretts
                              MacCabe - Co Cavan - Scottish gallowglasses, 14th century
                              MacElligot - Kerry - Cambro-Norman, FitzElias (also Gaelic?)
                              MacHale - Mayo - Welsh, personal name Howell (also a Gaelic name)
                              MacQuillan - Antrim - Norman-Welsh, Lords of the Route, Hugelin
                              Mandeville - Tipperary - Norman, de Magna Villa
                              Mansfield - Waterford - de Mandeville
                              Marmion or Merriman - Dublin - Norman, Marmyoun
                              Marshall - Wexford - Mareschal
                              Maunsell - Tipperary, Limerick - Anglo-Norman, le mansel
                              Meere - Meath - Norman?, de la Mere (also Gaelic)
                              Merrick - Connacht - Welsh, Mac Mibhric (also an English name)
                              Meyler - Wexford - Cambro-Norman, Meyler FitzHenry
                              Mockler - Tipperary - Norman, Malcierc (Beauclerc)
                              Molyneux - Kerry, Ulster
                              Montagne - Armagh, Tyrone - de Montaigne
                              Morris - Galway - Norman, de Marries (de Marisco)
                              Morrissey - Waterford, Limerick, Cork - Norman, de Marisco
                              Mortimer - Meath - Norman
                              Montmorency - - de Monte Marisco (see Morris)
                              Mountain - Waterford - de la Montagne
                              Nangle or Nagle - Meath, Cork - d'Angulos (see Costelloe)
                              Neville - Wexford, Kilkenny - Norman, de Neville
                              Noble - Fermanagh - le Noble
                              Nugent - Cork, Westmeath - de Nogent
                              Oliver - Louth
                              Palmer - Kerry, Meath - Norman, old-French le paumer
                              Pender - see Prendergast
                              Pentony - Meath, Louth, Dublin
                              Peppard - Louth - Norman, de Pipard
                              Plunkett - Louth, Meath - Anglo-Norman, corruption of blanchet
                              Power - Waterford - Anglo-Norman, le Poer
                              Prendergast - Waterford, Mayo - Anglo-Norman, village in Pembrokeshire
                              Prior - Dublin, Limerick - Norman
                              Proud - Ormond
                              Punch - Kildare, Dublin - Norman, forename Poncius (Ponce)
                              Purcell - Tipperary, Kilkenny - Norman-French word porcel
                              Quilter - Kerry - le Cuilter
                              Redmond - Wexford - Norman, Alexander Raymond
                              Rice - Limerick, Kerry - Welsh, Rhys (also a Irish-Gaelic name)
                              Roberts or Rochford - Cork... - de Ridelsford
                              Roche - Wexford, Cork - Norman-Flemish, de la Roche (fitzGodebert)
                              Rochfort - Westmeath - Norman, de Rupefort
                              Rossiter - Wexford - Anglo-Norman
                              Russell - Down - Anglo-Norman (also an English name)
                              Sarsfield - Cork - Norman?, de Sharisfeld
                              Scriven - Dublin, Cork
                              Shortall - Kilkenny
                              Sinnott - Wexford, Kildare - Norman-Flemish
                              St Leger - Waterford, Cork
                              Savage - Down, Kilkenny
                              Scales - Limerick, Clare - Anglo-Norman
                              Scurlock - Wexford
                              Shinnors - Tipperary, Limerick - Anglo-Norman
                              Stackpoole - Clare, Dublin
                              Stapleton - Kilkenny, Tipperary
                              Staunton - Mayo - Anglo-Norman - Mac an Bhileadha (MacEvilly)
                              Taaffe - Louth, Sligo - Welsh, personal name David
                              Talbot - Dublin
                              Teeling - Meath
                              Tobin - Tipperary, Kilkenny - French-Norman, de St. Aubyn
                              Tuite - Meath, Westmeath - French-Norman, de Tiúit
                              Tyrrell - Westmeath
                              Ussher - Dublin - Norman, Nevill family
                              Veale - Waterford
                              Viniter - Munster - le Vineter
                              Wade - Waterford
                              Wall - Limerick, Waterford - Norman, du Val or de Wale or de Valle
                              Walsh - Kilkenny, Wexford - Breathnach (Breton), often denotes a Welsh origin
                              Warren - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, de la Varenne or de Warenne
                              Waring - Meath, Kilkenny, Down - Guarin
                              White - Limerick - le Blund
                              Woulfe - Kildare, Limerick, - Norman, le Woulf
                              Wyse - Waterford - le Wyse

                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                              From: Brian Swann <bps@...>
                              To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, 7 February 2013, 12:07
                              Subject: RE: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                               
                              Do you have any dates to hang around this semi-mystical Sir Waltero de Aliton?
                               
                              It will then help in deciding which wave of Anglo-Norman / French invaders into Ireland he went in with.  They were going in from 1169/70 onwards.
                               
                              But many came via Wales first.
                               
                              Brian
                               
                              From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Seamus O'Neill
                              Sent: 07 February 2013 00:00
                              To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                               
                               
                              Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.
                               
                              The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.
                               
                              The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 
                               
                              Seamus
                               
                               
                              O'Harts origin for Dalton
                               
                              THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that
                              which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a
                              Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which
                              he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid
                              the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately
                              retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the
                              ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having
                              signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the
                              invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,
                              and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits
                              of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now
                              called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,
                              which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper
                              Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of
                              Dalton.
                               
                               
                              From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                              To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                              Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                               
                              Hi Seamus, 
                              I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                              Sincerely,
                              Velma Dalton Boudreau

                              Sent from my IPad
                              On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                               
                              Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                               
                               
                              From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                              To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                              Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                              My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!SusanOn Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:> > Hi Susan,>  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.>  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.>  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.>  > Hope this helps,> Brian Porter> > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>> To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM> Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question>  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions?> > Susan> > > ------------------------------------Yahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/<*> Your email settings:    Individual Email | Traditional<*> To change settings online go to:    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join    (Yahoo! ID required)<*> To change settings via email:    R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:    R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            • Tim Janzen
                              I would start with Barry Cunliffe’s book Britain Begins. I also like The Historical Atlas of the Celtic World by John Haywood and Barry Cunliffe. Tim Janzen
                              Message 15 of 30 , Feb 7, 2013
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                                I would start with Barry Cunliffe’s book Britain Begins.  I also like The Historical Atlas of the Celtic World by John Haywood and Barry Cunliffe.

                                Tim Janzen

                                 

                                From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Timothy May
                                Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 5:22 AM
                                To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                                 

                                 

                                Can someone recommend books or resources on the history of the specific waves of the invaders?
                                Even a brief list of dates and places is a good place to start.  Interested in the Wales connection.

                                Thank you,

                                Tim

                              • Timothy May
                                Thank you for this history, very helpful. It explains the locations of people groups and DNA. Although I am not M222 or L21 or the other groups mentioned here
                                Message 16 of 30 , Feb 8, 2013
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                                  Thank you for this history, very helpful.  It explains the locations of people groups and DNA.  Although I am not M222 or L21
                                  or the other groups mentioned here I do have some ancestry dna connections with all these groups.

                                  Tim

                                  On 2/7/13 4:16 PM, Seamus O'Neill wrote:
                                   
                                  Well the Saxons invaded Britain around 440 AD and with the native Celts in such a weakened state due to centuries of Roman oppression their victory was inevitable however it is recorded there was one group who fought  against the invaders for 40 years before they were eventually defeated when it was likely they followed their fellow Celts to Brittany. The influx of these Celts to Brittany is said to have transformed the area between the estuaries of the Rance and the Loir and drove out the existing inhabitants, changing the name of Amorica to Brittany and creating the area of Cornouaille named after Cornwall.
                                   
                                  So what DNA signature did these Celts have, it is highly likely that a significant portion of these comprised of L21 people reflecting the various tribes displaced by the Romans, we know that the Royal Stuarts are DF41+ and if you look at the other people who have tested positive for this SNP we find Welsh names such as Price, Stephens, Samuels, Williams and Cooper and Scottish and Irish names of various origins which points to an Isles origin for this SNP. If the pedigree of Alan Fitz-flahald who was descended from the Seneschal of Dol of Brittany is to be believed then we have a link from Britain to Brittany and then back to Britain with William the Conquerer and we know that Alan Fitz-flahald  was granted extensive lands in Shropshire in the Welsh border regions, we also know that his Son Walter Fitz-Alan had extensive lands in Scotland  in Renfrewshire granted by David 1st of Scotland whose Sister was married to William the Conquerers Son Henry.
                                   
                                  This David was a great advocate of Norman customs and ways and granted large tracts of land to European Religious orders and they founded many Abbeys on them, he also invited many of his friends who were the Sons of Norman nobles to Scotland. We also know that war was waged against the Norwegians in the North of Scotland and that many Norman Nobles fought in this war and were granted large tracts of land in repayment for their service in these wars. So what we have is a version of the plantations that took place in Ireland which would introduce Welsh and Cornish L21 type DNA into Scotland particularly the border region. So if the given French Norman pedigree for Dalton is correct then it is possible that this Dalton M222 cluster was introduced to the border region then and when we consider the French and Welsh DF23 names and the Caldwell DF23 cluster whose territory was also in Renfrewshire where we have already seen that Norman lands were owned by Walter Fitz-Alan. These Caldwell's are very close to the origin of M222.
                                   
                                   
                                  So now we look to Ireland and the Norman invasion of 1169 which was a result of the plea for help by Dermot McMurrough to King Henry which is shown in the passage below from Henry's Patent   
                                   
                                  Henry, King of England, duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and earl of Anjou, to all his liegemen, English, Norman, Welsh and Scotch, and to all the nations under his dominion, greeting. When these letters shall come into your hands, know ye, that we have received Dermod, Prince of Leinster, into the bosom of our grace and benevolence. Wherefore, whosoever, in the ample extent of all our territories, shall be willing to assist in restoring that prince, as our vassal and liegeman, let such person know, that we do hereby grant to him our licence and favour for the said undertaking.
                                   
                                  This invasion force would have comprised of many Welsh and Scottish Norman adventurers and it is only 100 years since the initial invasion of Britain by the Normans so the main bulk of the Norman Noble families would still be intact so it is resonable to speculate that the descendents of many of these would participate in this new invasion. The best way to proceed is to see how many DF23 and M222 people have Surnames associated with these territories occupied by these Normans both in Britain and Ireland which I will do when I get a chance.
                                   
                                  Seamus
                                   
                                   
                                  Here are some of the most powerful Norman families that settled in Ireland
                                   
                                   
                                  Gerald De Windsor of Lancashire - Fitzgerald, Fitzgibbon and Fitzmaurice (these family were related to Strongbow through marriage)
                                   
                                  William the Conquerer  Duke of Normandy - Butler
                                   
                                  Robert Earl of Cornwall - Bourke (related to William the Conquerer)
                                   
                                  Sir Walel de Ailiton - Dalton
                                   
                                  Robert Le Poer - Power
                                   
                                  Here is a comprehensive list of Norman Surnames in Ireland
                                   
                                  Archbold - Wicklow - Anglo-Norman
                                  Archdeacon - Kilkenny - Norman, le Ercedekne, later Mac Ó Oda
                                  Archer - Dublin, Kilkenny - Norman, le Archer
                                  Athy - Kildare, Galway - Norman (Cambro, Anglo?)
                                  Ayl(e)ward - Waterford, Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman
                                  Babe - Louth - Anglo-Norman, le Babbe
                                  Baldwin - Waterford - German-Flemish, Baldwyn
                                  Balf(f)e - Meath - Anglo-Norman, balbh
                                  Barbour - Dublin, Cork - Norman-French, barbier
                                  Barnewall - Dublin, Meath - Norman, de Barneville
                                  Barrett - Cork, Mayo - Cambro-Norman, Baroid or Bairéad
                                  Barron - Waterford - Cambro-Norman, Fitzgerald derivative
                                  Barry - Cork - Norman, de Barri
                                  Beamish - Cork, Kerry - Norman-French, place-name Beaumais
                                  Begg(s) - Antrim - Anglo-Norman (also a Scottish name)
                                  Bellew - Louth, Meath - Norman, de Bel Eau (Beleawe)
                                  Belton - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, de Welton
                                  Bermingham - Offaly, Galway - Norman, de Bermingham
                                  Berrill - Louth
                                  Blake - Galway - Welsh - Caddell; one of 'Tribes of Galway'
                                  Blanchfield - Kilkenny - Norman-French, de Blancheville
                                  Bluett - Cork, Limerick
                                  Bodkin - Galway - Anglo-Norman, Geraldine derivation (baudekin)
                                  Bonfield - Clare, Limerick - Anglo-Norman, de Bonneville
                                  Brannagh - Kilkenny, Wexford, Waterford - Welsh, Breathnach
                                  Brett - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, possibly le Bret (e.g. Milo le Bret)
                                  Broe - Leinster - Norman, de Berewa and de Bruth
                                  Broy - Kilkenny - Norman, de Broy
                                  Browne - Galway - Norman, le Brun (Brunach)
                                  Bryan - Klikenny, Wexford - Anglo-Norman, personal name Brian
                                  Burke - Galway, Mayo - Norman, de Burgo
                                  Burnell - Dublin, Meath - Anglo-Norman, le Brun
                                  Bury - Wicklow - Norman, de Bury
                                  Busher - Waterford, Wexford - Norman-Flemish, Bouchier
                                  Butler - Kilkenny, Tipperary - Norman, Fitzwalter (de Botiller)
                                  Cadogan - Cork - Cambro, a Welsh forename (Cadwgan)
                                  Campion - Kilkenny, Laois - Norman, de Champagnes (Champaynes)
                                  Cantillon - Kerry - Norman, de Cauntelo
                                  Cantwell - Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman, de Kentenall or de Kentwell
                                  Carbery - Kildare - Norman (not the early lords of Carbury)
                                  Carew - Cork, Tipperary - Cambro-Norman, de Carron or de Curio
                                  Cashell - Louth - Anglo-Nomran, de Cashel
                                  Chambers - Mayo - Anglo-Norman, de la Chambre
                                  Clare, Clear - Kilkenny, Wexford - Norman, de Clare
                                  Cody - Kilkenny, Wexford - Norman, Mac Ó Oda (see Archdeacon)
                                  Cogan - Cork - Morman, de Cogan
                                  Collier - Dublin, 14th century - Anglo-Norman, le Collier
                                  Comyn - Dublin, Clare - Anglo-Norman, de Comines (also Scottish)
                                  Comerford - Kilkenny, Waterford - Anglo, village in Staffordshire
                                  Condon - Cork - Anglo-Norman, Caunteton
                                  (Mac)Costello(e) Mayo - Norman, Mac Oisdealbh (son of Gilebrt de Nangle)
                                  Courcy - Cork - Anglo-Norman, de Courcy
                                  Croker - Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman, le Crocker
                                  Cruise - Dublin, Meath - Anglo-Norman, de Cruys
                                  Cullen - Wexford - Norman-Flemish
                                  Cusack - Clare - Norman-Flemish, de Cussac
                                  Cussen - Cork, Tipperary - Norman
                                  Dalton - Clare, Meath - Anglo-Norman, D'Alton
                                  Darcy - Meath - Anglo-Norman, D'Arcy
                                  Dardis - Meath, Westmeath - Norman, D'Ardis
                                  Daton - Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman, D'Auton
                                  Day - Wexford - de Haye
                                  Deane - Dublin, Kilkenny - de Denne
                                  Delamer - Dublin - de la Mare
                                  Denvir - Down - D'Anver of Norfolk
                                  Devereux - Wexford - Norman, d'Evreux
                                  Dillon - Westmeath - Anglo-Norman, Viscounts de Lion of Brittany
                                  Dondon - Limerick - de Auno
                                  Dowdall - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, Dovedale
                                  Elvery - Kilkenny, Carlow - Anglo, Albrey?
                                  Erley - Kilkenny, Tipperary - d'Erley
                                  Esmonde - Wexford
                                  Eustace - Kildare - Anglo-Norman
                                  Everard - Meath, Tipperary - Anglo-Norman
                                  Fagan - Dublin, Meath - Norman (Faodhagain in Gaelic)
                                  Fallas - Fermanagh - Norman, de Falaise, town in Normandy
                                  Fannin(g) - Limerick, Tipperary - Norman, personal name Panin
                                  Fitzelle - Kerry - Norman
                                  Fitzgerald - Cork, Kildare - Cambro-Norman, Gerald of Windsor
                                  Fitzgibbon - Mayo - Norman, MacGibbon Burke
                                  Fitzgibbon - Limerick - Cambro-Norman, The White Knight (FitzGerald)
                                  Fitzhenry - Wexford
                                  Fitzmaurice - Kerry - Cambro-Norman, Morrisey (FitzGerald)
                                  Fitzmaurice - Mayo - Cambro-Norman, branch of Prendergast
                                  Fitzsimmons - Cavan, Down, Mayo - Norman, Fitzsimon
                                  Fitzstephens - Cork - Cambro-Norman, Robert FitzStephen
                                  Flavelle - Armagh
                                  Fleming - Meath - Flemish, Lord Slane
                                  Forrestal - Kilkenny, Wexford - Anglo-Norman, le Forstal
                                  Francis - Galway
                                  Frizell - Cork, Limerick - Norman, le Frisel (of Friesland)
                                  French - Wexford, Galway - Norman, de French
                                  Freyne - Kilkenny - Norman, de la Freigne
                                  Furlong - Wexford - Anglo, meaning a field or stadium
                                  Ganter - Dublin
                                  Garland, Gernon - Louth, Meath - Anglo-Norman, Roger de Gernon
                                  Goold - Dublin, Cork
                                  Gorham - Kerry
                                  Goulding - Dublin, Cork - e.g. Nicholas Goldinges (1314)
                                  Grace - Kilkenny - Cambro-Norman, Raymond le Gros
                                  Granville - Kerry
                                  Grennon - Meath - Norman, Robert de Grenan
                                  Griffin - Kilkenny - Welsh, (also an Gaelic-Irish surname)
                                  Griffith - Kilkenny - Welsh, Rhys ap Griffith (Gryffyd)
                                  Hackett - Carlow, Kildare, Kilkenny - Norman, personal name
                                  Hayden or Headon - Dublin, Wexford - Norman, de Heddon
                                  Hayes or Hay - Wexford - Norman, de la Haye
                                  Herbert - Kerry
                                  Hollywood - Dublin
                                  Hore - Wexford - Anglo-Norman, le Hore
                                  Howlin, Holden - Kilkenny - Welsh, Huolyn
                                  Hussey - Meath, Kerry - Norman, de Hose and de Hosey
                                  Jordan - Mayo, Clare - Norman, Jordan d'Exeter (Mac Siurtain)
                                  Joyce - Galway, Mayo - Welsh, de Jorse
                                  Keating - Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford - Cambro-Norman, Cethyn
                                  Kennefick - Dublin, Louth, Kilkenny, Cork - Welsh place name
                                  Kiersey - Waterford
                                  Lacy - Meath, Limerick - Anglo-Norman, de Lacy
                                  Laffan - Wexford, Tipperary - Anglo-Norman, La Font or La Fin
                                  Lambert - Wexford, Galway - Norman
                                  Landy - Kilkenny, Tipperary - Norman, de la Launde
                                  Lawless - Dublin, Galway - Anglo-Norman, Old English word laghles
                                  Liston - Limerick - de Lexinton
                                  Logan - Ulster - Norman, de Logan (also a Gaelic name)
                                  Lucey - Cork - Norman, de Lucy
                                  Lynch - Galway - de Lench
                                  Lyons - Meath - Norman, de Leon or de Lyons (also a Gaelic name)
                                  MacAndrew - Mayo - Norman, branch of the Barretts
                                  MacCabe - Co Cavan - Scottish gallowglasses, 14th century
                                  MacElligot - Kerry - Cambro-Norman, FitzElias (also Gaelic?)
                                  MacHale - Mayo - Welsh, personal name Howell (also a Gaelic name)
                                  MacQuillan - Antrim - Norman-Welsh, Lords of the Route, Hugelin
                                  Mandeville - Tipperary - Norman, de Magna Villa
                                  Mansfield - Waterford - de Mandeville
                                  Marmion or Merriman - Dublin - Norman, Marmyoun
                                  Marshall - Wexford - Mareschal
                                  Maunsell - Tipperary, Limerick - Anglo-Norman, le mansel
                                  Meere - Meath - Norman?, de la Mere (also Gaelic)
                                  Merrick - Connacht - Welsh, Mac Mibhric (also an English name)
                                  Meyler - Wexford - Cambro-Norman, Meyler FitzHenry
                                  Mockler - Tipperary - Norman, Malcierc (Beauclerc)
                                  Molyneux - Kerry, Ulster
                                  Montagne - Armagh, Tyrone - de Montaigne
                                  Morris - Galway - Norman, de Marries (de Marisco)
                                  Morrissey - Waterford, Limerick, Cork - Norman, de Marisco
                                  Mortimer - Meath - Norman
                                  Montmorency - - de Monte Marisco (see Morris)
                                  Mountain - Waterford - de la Montagne
                                  Nangle or Nagle - Meath, Cork - d'Angulos (see Costelloe)
                                  Neville - Wexford, Kilkenny - Norman, de Neville
                                  Noble - Fermanagh - le Noble
                                  Nugent - Cork, Westmeath - de Nogent
                                  Oliver - Louth
                                  Palmer - Kerry, Meath - Norman, old-French le paumer
                                  Pender - see Prendergast
                                  Pentony - Meath, Louth, Dublin
                                  Peppard - Louth - Norman, de Pipard
                                  Plunkett - Louth, Meath - Anglo-Norman, corruption of blanchet
                                  Power - Waterford - Anglo-Norman, le Poer
                                  Prendergast - Waterford, Mayo - Anglo-Norman, village in Pembrokeshire
                                  Prior - Dublin, Limerick - Norman
                                  Proud - Ormond
                                  Punch - Kildare, Dublin - Norman, forename Poncius (Ponce)
                                  Purcell - Tipperary, Kilkenny - Norman-French word porcel
                                  Quilter - Kerry - le Cuilter
                                  Redmond - Wexford - Norman, Alexander Raymond
                                  Rice - Limerick, Kerry - Welsh, Rhys (also a Irish-Gaelic name)
                                  Roberts or Rochford - Cork... - de Ridelsford
                                  Roche - Wexford, Cork - Norman-Flemish, de la Roche (fitzGodebert)
                                  Rochfort - Westmeath - Norman, de Rupefort
                                  Rossiter - Wexford - Anglo-Norman
                                  Russell - Down - Anglo-Norman (also an English name)
                                  Sarsfield - Cork - Norman?, de Sharisfeld
                                  Scriven - Dublin, Cork
                                  Shortall - Kilkenny
                                  Sinnott - Wexford, Kildare - Norman-Flemish
                                  St Leger - Waterford, Cork
                                  Savage - Down, Kilkenny
                                  Scales - Limerick, Clare - Anglo-Norman
                                  Scurlock - Wexford
                                  Shinnors - Tipperary, Limerick - Anglo-Norman
                                  Stackpoole - Clare, Dublin
                                  Stapleton - Kilkenny, Tipperary
                                  Staunton - Mayo - Anglo-Norman - Mac an Bhileadha (MacEvilly)
                                  Taaffe - Louth, Sligo - Welsh, personal name David
                                  Talbot - Dublin
                                  Teeling - Meath
                                  Tobin - Tipperary, Kilkenny - French-Norman, de St. Aubyn
                                  Tuite - Meath, Westmeath - French-Norman, de Tiúit
                                  Tyrrell - Westmeath
                                  Ussher - Dublin - Norman, Nevill family
                                  Veale - Waterford
                                  Viniter - Munster - le Vineter
                                  Wade - Waterford
                                  Wall - Limerick, Waterford - Norman, du Val or de Wale or de Valle
                                  Walsh - Kilkenny, Wexford - Breathnach (Breton), often denotes a Welsh origin
                                  Warren - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, de la Varenne or de Warenne
                                  Waring - Meath, Kilkenny, Down - Guarin
                                  White - Limerick - le Blund
                                  Woulfe - Kildare, Limerick, - Norman, le Woulf
                                  Wyse - Waterford - le Wyse

                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  From: Brian Swann <bps@...>
                                  To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, 7 February 2013, 12:07
                                  Subject: RE: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                   
                                  Do you have any dates to hang around this semi-mystical Sir Waltero de Aliton?
                                   
                                  It will then help in deciding which wave of Anglo-Norman / French invaders into Ireland he went in with.  They were going in from 1169/70 onwards.
                                   
                                  But many came via Wales first.
                                   
                                  Brian
                                   
                                  From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Seamus O'Neill
                                  Sent: 07 February 2013 00:00
                                  To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                   
                                   
                                  Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.
                                   
                                  The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.
                                   
                                  The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 
                                   
                                  Seamus
                                   
                                   
                                  O'Harts origin for Dalton
                                   
                                  THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that
                                  which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a
                                  Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which
                                  he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid
                                  the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately
                                  retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the
                                  ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having
                                  signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the
                                  invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,
                                  and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits
                                  of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now
                                  called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,
                                  which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper
                                  Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of
                                  Dalton.
                                   
                                   
                                  From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                                  To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                                  Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                   
                                  HiSeamus, 
                                  I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                                  Sincerely,
                                  VelmaDalton Boudreau

                                  Sent from my IPad
                                  On2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...>wrote:
                                   
                                  Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                                   
                                   
                                  From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                                  To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                                  Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                  My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian!SusanOn Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote:> > Hi Susan,>  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C.>  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers.>  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49.>  > Hope this helps,> Brian Porter> > From: Susan Young <youngs@...>>To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM> Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question>  > I just got the results back for deep clade

                                  (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                                • Timothy May
                                  Thanks, this helps. I have the latter and did not know about the former. Tim ... Thanks, this helps.  I have the latter and did not know about the former.
                                  Message 17 of 30 , Feb 8, 2013
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                                    Thanks, this helps.  I have the latter and did not know about the former.

                                    Tim

                                    On 2/8/13 1:30 AM, Tim Janzen wrote:
                                     

                                    I would start with Barry Cunliffe’s book Britain Begins.  I also like The Historical Atlas of the Celtic World by John Haywood and Barry Cunliffe.

                                    Tim Janzen

                                     

                                    From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Timothy May
                                    Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 5:22 AM
                                    To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                                     

                                     

                                    Can someone recommend books or resources on the history of the specific waves of the invaders?
                                    Even a brief list of dates and places is a good place to start.  Interested in the Wales connection.

                                    Thank you,

                                    Tim


                                  • Velma Boudreau
                                    Hi Seamus Not sure if M222 fits in with my Dalton s, as my uncle s terminal SNP is L2, not L21, or are they still somewhat close? The Dalton study has isolated
                                    Message 18 of 30 , Feb 8, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Seamus
                                      Not sure if M222 fits in with my Dalton's, as my uncle's terminal SNP is L2, not L21, or are they still somewhat close?
                                      The Dalton study has isolated 4+ distinct Dalton groups who are, as far as I can tell, not related. My family is not part of any of these larger isolated groups. There are Irish members in all of these groups, which seems to me that Waltero D. was only one of a number of Dalton progenitors.
                                      It would be interesting to compare the SNPs of these groups with your research.
                                      Thanks,
                                      Velma Dalton Boudreau

                                      Sent from my IPad

                                      On 2013-02-06, at 8:29 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:

                                       

                                      Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.
                                       
                                      The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick  
                                      so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.
                                       
                                      The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 
                                       
                                      Seamus
                                       
                                       
                                      O'Harts origin for Dalton
                                       
                                      THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that
                                      which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a
                                      Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which
                                      he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid
                                      the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately
                                      retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the
                                      ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having
                                      signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the
                                      invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,
                                      and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits
                                      of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now
                                      called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,
                                      which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper
                                      Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of
                                      Dalton.


                                      From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                                      To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                                      Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                       
                                      Hi Seamus, 
                                      I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                                      Sincerely,
                                      Velma Dalton Boudreau

                                      Sent from my IPad
                                      On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                                       
                                      Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                                       
                                       
                                      From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                                      To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                                      Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                      My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian! Susan On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote: > > Hi Susan, >  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C. >  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers. >  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49. >  > Hope this helps, > Brian Porter > > From: Susan Young <youngs@...> > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question >  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions? > > Susan > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                                    • Seamus O'Neill
                                      Hi Velma, looking at the Dalton project there are 74 people with the Dalton surname and of these 45 are M222 people which represents 61% of tested Daltons. The
                                      Message 19 of 30 , Feb 10, 2013
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                                        Hi Velma, looking at the Dalton project there are 74 people with the Dalton surname and of these 45 are M222 people which represents 61% of tested Daltons. The rest are the usual mix of 12b1, l1, R1b unmatched and a cluster of R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is the most significant group after M222. The thing about the Dalton M222 group is the amount of mutations at differant slow markers unlike much Irish M222 who come from a recent common ancestor. If this Norman Walter Dailton did indeed come to Ireland as O'Hart suggests then there were others as well because there are too many differant slow and medium marker mutations to be from a common ancestor in the last 800 years. It certainly looks like the Dalton surname is locational in origin and that the number of M222 Daltons that carry the surname is simply a representation of the dominant genepool of that area so coupled with DF23 it may be possible to pin down the origin of this SNP. 
                                         
                                        Seamus 
                                         
                                        From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                                        To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 18:01
                                        Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                         
                                        Hi Seamus
                                        Not sure if M222 fits in with my Dalton's, as my uncle's terminal SNP is L2, not L21, or are they still somewhat close?
                                        The Dalton study has isolated 4+ distinct Dalton groups who are, as far as I can tell, not related. My family is not part of any of these larger isolated groups. There are Irish members in all of these groups, which seems to me that Waltero D. was only one of a number of Dalton progenitors.
                                        It would be interesting to compare the SNPs of these groups with your research.
                                        Thanks,
                                        Velma Dalton Boudreau

                                        Sent from my IPad
                                        On 2013-02-06, at 8:29 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                                         
                                        Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.
                                         
                                        The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick  
                                        so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.
                                         
                                        The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 
                                         
                                        Seamus
                                         
                                         
                                        O'Harts origin for Dalton
                                         
                                        THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that
                                        which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a
                                        Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which
                                        he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid
                                        the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately
                                        retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the
                                        ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having
                                        signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the
                                        invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,
                                        and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits
                                        of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now
                                        called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,
                                        which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper
                                        Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of
                                        Dalton.


                                        From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                                        To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                                        Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                         
                                        Hi Seamus, 
                                        I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                                        Sincerely,
                                        Velma Dalton Boudreau

                                        Sent from my IPad
                                        On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                                         
                                        Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                                         
                                         
                                        From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                                        To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                                        Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                        My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian! Susan On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote: > > Hi Susan, >  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C. >  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers. >  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49. >  > Hope this helps, > Brian Porter > > From: Susan Young <youngs@...> > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question >  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions? > > Susan > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      • donnachellew@sbcglobal.net
                                        This question is for Mike who is in charge of the group. I just received an email that the results of my upgrade to 67 markers are in. I joined this group
                                        Message 20 of 30 , Feb 10, 2013
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                                          This question is for Mike who is in charge of the group.
                                          I just received an email that the results of my upgrade to 67 markers are in.
                                          I joined this group without knowing enough and now with the upgrade to 67 markers I still don't know enough.  Guess I should drop out.
                                          Donna
                                           
                                          In a message dated 2/10/2013 5:06:43 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, oneillabu@... writes:
                                           

                                          Hi Velma, looking at the Dalton project there are 74 people with the Dalton surname and of these 45 are M222 people which represents 61% of tested Daltons. The rest are the usual mix of 12b1, l1, R1b unmatched and a cluster of R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is the most significant group after M222. The thing about the Dalton M222 group is the amount of mutations at differant slow markers unlike much Irish M222 who come from a recent common ancestor. If this Norman Walter Dailton did indeed come to Ireland as O'Hart suggests then there were others as well because there are too many differant slow and medium marker mutations to be from a common ancestor in the last 800 years. It certainly looks like the Dalton surname is locational in origin and that the number of M222 Daltons that carry the surname is simply a representation of the dominant genepool of that area so coupled with DF23 it may be possible to pin down the origin of this SNP. 
                                           
                                          Seamus 
                                           
                                          From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                                          To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 18:01
                                          Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                           
                                          Hi Seamus
                                          Not sure if M222 fits in with my Dalton's, as my uncle's terminal SNP is L2, not L21, or are they still somewhat close?
                                          The Dalton study has isolated 4+ distinct Dalton groups who are, as far as I can tell, not related. My family is not part of any of these larger isolated groups. There are Irish members in all of these groups, which seems to me that Waltero D. was only one of a number of Dalton progenitors.
                                          It would be interesting to compare the SNPs of these groups with your research.
                                          Thanks,
                                          Velma Dalton Boudreau

                                          Sent from my IPad
                                          On 2013-02-06, at 8:29 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                                           
                                          Below is O'Harts account of the origin of the Dalton surname which he says is most likely French in origin and what is interesting is the amount of French and Welsh DF23. Was the origin of the DF23 in France due to the forced migration of native Celts from Britain, namely Cornish, Welsh and Scots border Celts. Your Dalton ancestor  is R1b1a2a1a1b3c which is found in Germany, France, Belgium, Italy as well as Britain and Ireland so the question is how did he aquire the Dalton surname and was he part of a post Norman migration to Ireland or did they arrive with the Normans or were his ancestors already in Ireland and simply aquired the surname or may he simply be an old Dalton NPE.
                                           
                                          The thing about the Irish M222 Daltons is that they match surnames like Byrne and Dunne which are native Irish and their ancestors pre date the Normans, there are also other non M222 Daltons in Leinster that match other native Irish names like Fitzpatrick  
                                          so either some Norman Daltons adopted Irish surnames or else there was an earlier settlement in the Leinster area who used the surname Dalton.
                                           
                                          The M222 Daltons are found in both Britain and Ireland and their DNA indicates a very old group so my own theory is that they are Brigante in origin who had an early prescence in both Britain and Ireland but this is just speculation. The prescence of your R1b1a2a1a1b3c ancestor in Ireland with the surname Dalton is very interesting but may be impossible to link to the Daltons of Leinster unless you can find some other Irish matches that confirm his Irish origin. You should probably contact the Dalton DNA project group and try some geneology forums  to try and follow the paper trail for your ancestor which is your best bet to get answers. 
                                           
                                          Seamus
                                           
                                           
                                          O'Harts origin for Dalton
                                           
                                          THEBEis no certain account of the origin of this family, other than that
                                          which we have by tradition, namely: That Sir Waltero de Aliton, a
                                          Frenchman, aspiring to gain the affections of his king's daughter (which
                                          he obtained), so incurred the displeasure of her father, that, to avoid
                                          the fury of an incensed Monarch, Sir Waltero, wi~h his lady, privately
                                          retired into Ireland, which was then involved in great wars between the
                                          ancient natives and their invading English enemies; where, having
                                          signalized his great valour and good conduct on many occasions on the
                                          invader's side, he was soon advanced to considerable offices and employments,
                                          and made governor of the borders of Meath, then the limits
                                          of the English conquests. In that part of the kingdom of Meath now
                                          called" Westmeath " Sir 'Valtero acquired great estates and possessions,
                                          which his posterity enj oyec1until they were dispossessed by the Usl1rper
                                          Cromwell. This Sir 'Valtel'o was the ancestor of
                                          Dalton.


                                          From: Velma Boudreau <dalton.velma1@...>
                                          To: "R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com" <R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 22:36
                                          Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                           
                                          Hi Seamus, 
                                          I am not at all versed in the area of DNA, but your email was of particular interest to me as I am a Dalton (my uncle's kit # is 129628 tested with Family Tree) and you speak of Dalton clusters in the Brigantes region. In the Dalton Study, to date, there is only one match with my uncle and he is a Jorgensen from Denmark We have been trying to pinpoint our family's point of origin. Family lore and customs say that we left Ireland in the early to mid 18th century and came to Newfoundland through involvement with the cod fishery, but at this point have not been able to make the link across the Atlantic. The earliest documented Dalton in our family tree was born in Newfoundland in  1774. What can you tell me about the R1b1 Daltons in this area? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                                          Sincerely,
                                          Velma Dalton Boudreau

                                          Sent from my IPad
                                          On 2013-02-06, at 5:49 PM, Seamus O'Neill <oneillabu@...> wrote:
                                           
                                          Kit number 79710 Lowden matches to a large cluster of Caldwell matches, the surname Caldwell is of Strathclyde Briton origin from Yorkshire and the Border Scottish regions which is the old territory of the Brigantes and it is from this region that the Daltons came. This Caldwell cluster are very close to the M222 haplo and have a slow marker DYS537 value of 11 and a slow marker DYS487 value of 14, these values are shared by M222+ Dalton so we are probably looking at people who are very close to the M222 mutation which I believe began with the Dalton Cluster in this region.
                                           
                                           
                                          From: Susan Young <youngs@...>
                                          To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2013, 20:12
                                          Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                          My dad's kit 79710 just came back yesterday positive for DF23 and thus DF49 as well, so he is confirmed as one of the DF49+ DF23+ M222- group. I've already been contacted by David Stedman and joined the DF49 and subclades project. Thanks again for the help, Brian! Susan On Jan 14, 2013, at 8:38 AM, zx_cajun_tn@... wrote: > > Hi Susan, >  > I looked at kit 79710 in Mike's L21 spreadsheet.  79710 is labeled in the group 49-23*-1922-C. >  > Looks like your dad is possibly DF23 & DF49 according to his off modal markers. >  > I would test for DF23 first. If you get a negative, then test for DF49. >  > Hope this helps, > Brian Porter > > From: Susan Young <youngs@...> > To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 11:13 AM > Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question >  > I just got the results back for deep clade testing on my father's kit #79710. He is L21+ but negative for all the SNP's downstream of L21 for which FTDNA is currently testing. Do I just wait and see what new SNP's are added in the coming months? Any suggestions? > > Susan > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     R1b-YDNA-digest@yahoogroups.com     R1b-YDNA-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     R1b-YDNA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                                        • John McDonald
                                          Can someone help me with a question? My 1st cousin and I are different at  the CDY marker while my older 2nd cousin and I are the same thru all 111 markers.
                                          Message 21 of 30 , Apr 28, 2013
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                                            Can someone help me with a question? My 1st cousin and I are different at  the CDY marker while my older 2nd cousin and I are the same thru all 111 markers. Any idea if this is normal?
                                             
                                             
                                            DYS724Palindromic; also known as CDY
                                             

                                            John McDonald
                                            FT 246556, Y AG9BF
                                            R1b-P310>L21>DF13>L513>L69.5*
                                            H3b1b1
                                          • Tim Janzen
                                            What you describe can certainly happen. All it takes is a mutation in your first cousin or in his father. Situations like this are fairly common. Tim Janzen
                                            Message 22 of 30 , Apr 28, 2013
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                                              What you describe can certainly happen.  All it takes is a mutation in your first cousin or in his father.  Situations like this are fairly common.

                                              Tim Janzen

                                               

                                              From: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John McDonald
                                              Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 8:43 PM
                                              To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [R1b-YDNA] Question

                                               

                                               

                                              Can someone help me with a question? My 1st cousin and I are different at  the CDY marker while my older 2nd cousin and I are the same thru all 111 markers. Any idea if this is normal?

                                               

                                               

                                              DYS724

                                              Palindromic; also known as CDY

                                               


                                              John McDonald
                                              FT 246556, Y AG9BF
                                              R1b-P310>L21>DF13>L513>L69.5*
                                              H3b1b1

                                            • Stephanie Ray
                                              I would consider a mutation between family members to be a very valuable marker for that particular line, and am hoping to upgrade members of my clan to 111
                                              Message 23 of 30 , Apr 29, 2013
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                                                I would consider a mutation between family members to be a very valuable marker for that particular line, and am hoping to upgrade members of my clan to 111 markers in hopes of finding some differences.
                                                 
                                                My understanding is that you are not so likely to get differences between 37 and 67 markers, more likely between 67 and 111 markers (faster mutating markers, I take it).
                                                 
                                                Best regards,
                                                Stephanie

                                                On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 8:43 PM, John McDonald <johntmcdonald@...> wrote:
                                                 

                                                Can someone help me with a question? My 1st cousin and I are different at  the CDY marker while my older 2nd cousin and I are the same thru all 111 markers. Any idea if this is normal?
                                                 
                                                 
                                                DYS724Palindromic; also known as CDY
                                                 

                                                John McDonald
                                                FT 246556, Y AG9BF
                                                R1b-P310>L21>DF13>L513>L69.5*
                                                H3b1b1


                                              • John McDonald
                                                Thank you... John McDonald FT 246556, Y AG9BF R1b-P312 L21 DF13 L513 L69.5* DYS464x cccg H3b1b1 ... Thank you... John McDonald FT 246556, Y AG9BF
                                                Message 24 of 30 , Apr 30, 2013
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                                                  Thank you...
                                                   
                                                  John McDonald
                                                  FT 246556, Y AG9BF
                                                  R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513>L69.5*
                                                  DYS464x cccg
                                                  H3b1b1

                                                  From: Stephanie Ray <stephanieray52@...>
                                                  To: R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 10:19 AM
                                                  Subject: Re: [R1b-YDNA] Question
                                                   
                                                  I would consider a mutation between family members to be a very valuable marker for that particular line, and am hoping to upgrade members of my clan to 111 markers in hopes of finding some differences.
                                                   
                                                  My understanding is that you are not so likely to get differences between 37 and 67 markers, more likely between 67 and 111 markers (faster mutating markers, I take it).
                                                   
                                                  Best regards,
                                                  Stephanie
                                                  On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 8:43 PM, John McDonald <johntmcdonald@...> wrote:
                                                   
                                                  Can someone help me with a question? My 1st cousin and I are different at  the CDY marker while my older 2nd cousin and I are the same thru all 111 markers. Any idea if this is normal?
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  DYS724Palindromic; also known as CDY
                                                   
                                                  John McDonald FT 246556, Y AG9BF R1b-P310>L21>DF13>L513>L69.5* H3b1b1
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