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Re: How and when did R1b spread across Europe?

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  • mhammers72
    Sorry for the delay in responding. I should make the distinction that the Tripolye people were closest in proximity to the steppe people. They lived side by
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 2, 2012
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      Sorry for the delay in responding.

      I should make the distinction that the Tripolye people were closest in proximity to the steppe people. They lived side by side with them for about 2000 years. I can't find any evidence of conflict between other than the Tripolyians settlements became fewer and larger possibly for mutual defense against raids.

      It was the Gumelnita-Karanova culture that first felt the impact of steppe intrusion in southern Romania/north Bulgaria. The Tripolye settlements to their north were bypassed for whatever reasons. This happened in the years 4200-3800 according to Anthony. Agricultural "Old Europe" in this region ceased to exist and the Cernavoda-Ezero complex arose in SE Europe. It had contacts with Anatolia and all the way up to Hungary. It was probably an interaction sphere of the old neolithics and the steppe people from the Suvorovo culture.

      This is imo, when many of the old neolithic cultures and probably R1b begins to be integrated into the PIE world. Starting in 4200 and ending around 2800 with the last push of Yamnaya steppe tribes into the Hungarian plain. 1400 years is plenty of time for a language to be adopted by a population. Around 3100 is when Italo-Celtic branches off possibly as result of this Yamnaya migration. This is the beginning of the R1a/R1b east-west split we see today, although it would have been fluid at different times. My guess is that R1b might be connected to the contemporary Vucedol culture(Croatia), which had roots in the Baden(Hungary) and Kostolac(Serbia/Romania)cultures that initiated a large movement of R1b's towards the newly developing Beaker horizon.

      I think R1a were part of the steppe movements especially towards the east. I don't think they have been in Europe since the ice age. I think they arrived in the mesolithic from the south and east of the Russian steppe. See Anthony's Elshanka ceramic tradition. My guess is that the original foragers who were living in the Dnieper area were I2 who would have been partially absorbed by Tripolye from the west and Sredny Stog(think R1a in 4500 BC)from the east.
    • John German
      ... . I ve wondered about R1b and Vucedol too. And in my amateur ponderings see their home as the birthplace of L11 which moves up the Danube with a branch
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 2, 2012
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        mhammers72 wrote:

        >My guess is that R1b might be connected to the contemporary Vucedol culture(Croatia), which had roots in the Baden(Hungary) and Kostolac(Serbia/Romania)cultures that initiated a large movement of R1b's towards the newly developing Beaker horizon.
        >
        >
        .
        I've wondered about R1b and Vucedol too. And in my amateur ponderings
        see their home as the birthplace of L11 which moves up the Danube with a
        branch turning north and down the Elba becoming U106, while P312 is born
        to one of the L11 that continued west up the Danube. Unfortunately I've
        not seen any claims that the Vucedol were L51 if indeed they were R1b.
        And this is all cart before the horse because we don't know where the
        Vucedol settlers came from. But its fun to ponder.
      • mikewww7
        MHammers, I see you think that R1b might be connected to the Vucedol culture. Wikipedia says the The Vucedol culture was a Indo-European culture that
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 3, 2012
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          MHammers, I see you think that R1b might be connected to the Vucedol culture. Wikipedia says the "The Vucedol culture was a Indo-European culture that flourished between 3000 and 2200 BC, centered in Syrmia and eastern Slavonia on the right bank of the Danube river, but possibly spreading throughout the Pannonian plain and western Balkans."

          Do you think this was R1b prior to L11/S127 and its splitting and expansion into the U106/S21 and P312/S116 subclades?

          I'm intrigued by the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture which had Old Europe roots but survived along side the Yamna steppe herders and even expanded eastward into the steppes.

          I tried to excerpt highlights related to the Cucuteni-Tripolye from "The Horse The Wheel and Language" by David Anthony. These qotes are from from pp. 227-238 in the chapter "The End of Old Europe." Anthony says the Tripolye B1 period was about 4300-4000 BC and the B2 period was from around 4000-3700 BC.

          [Start of David Anthony quotes]

          "…extremely cold years happened first in 4120 and 4040 BCE. They were harbingers of the 140-yeard-long, bitterly cold period lasting from 3960 to 3821 BCE… Quickly these and perhaps other stresses accumulated to create an enormous crisis."

          "in the lower Danube valley and the Balkans… The cultures that appeared after about 3800 BCE did not regularly use female figurines in domestic rituals, no longer wore copper spiral bracelets… made relatively plain pottery.. did not live on tells, and depended more on stockbreeding."

          "'We are faced with a complete replacement of the culture,' E.N. Chenykh said. It was `a catastrophe of colossal scope"… according to .. H. Todorova."

          "The Old European traditions of the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture also survived and, in fact, seemed curiously reinvigorated. After 4000 BCE, in its Tripolye B2 phase, the Tripolye culture expanded eastwards towards the Dnieper valley."

          "In a database of 2,017 Cucuteni/Tripolye settlements compiled by the Moldovan archaeologist V. Dergachev, half of all fortified Cucuteni/Tripolye sites are dates just to the Tripolye B1 period. About 60% of all flint projectile points from all the Cucuteni/Tripolye culture also belonged just to the Tripolye B1 period. There was no corresponding increase in hunting. Probably it was associated with increased warfare…. Compared to its past and its future, the Tripolye B1 period was a time of sharply increased conflict in the Eastern Carpathians. Simultaneously with the increase in fortifications and weapons, Tripolye B1 towns showed widespread evidence of contact with steppe cultures...
          Many Cucuteni C pots look like they were made by Sredni Stog potters. This suggests familiarity with steppe cultures.."

          "During Tripolye B2, around 4000-3700 BC, there was a significant migration out of the Prut-Seret forest-steppe uplands, the most densely settled part of the Tripolye B1 landscape, eastward into the South Bug and Dnieper valleys….
          The number of fortified settlements decreased sharply. These signs of demographic expansion and reduced conflict appeared after the tell settlements of the Danube valley were burned and abandoned. It appears than any external threat from the steppes, if there was one, turned away from Cucuteni-Tripolye towns. Why?"

          "A mutualist interpretation of steppe/farming-zone relations is one alternative. Conflict is not denied, but it is downplayed, and mutually beneficial trade and exchange are emphasized. Mutualism might well explain the relationship between the Cucuteni-Tripolye and Srdeni Stog cultures during the Tripolye period."

          [End of David Anthony quotes]

          As you noted, the Tripolye people may have been more mixed. They were on the east side of the Carpathians and so a direct route towards the Baltic and Northern Germany for them would have been through the Ukraine and Poland. I'll have to look that up, but I think David Anthony thought this might be where the pre-Germanic dialects of PIE was first spoken. I may be overthinking this, but there are some nice alignments with U106/S21. What do you think of R1b among the Tripolye people?

          Mike W

          --- In R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com, "mhammers72" <toddhammers@...> wrote:
          >
          > Sorry for the delay in responding.
          >
          > I should make the distinction that the Tripolye people were closest in proximity to the steppe people. They lived side by side with them for about 2000 years. I can't find any evidence of conflict between other than the Tripolyians settlements became fewer and larger possibly for mutual defense against raids.
          >
          > It was the Gumelnita-Karanova culture that first felt the impact of steppe intrusion in southern Romania/north Bulgaria. The Tripolye settlements to their north were bypassed for whatever reasons. This happened in the years 4200-3800 according to Anthony. Agricultural "Old Europe" in this region ceased to exist and the Cernavoda-Ezero complex arose in SE Europe. It had contacts with Anatolia and all the way up to Hungary. It was probably an interaction sphere of the old neolithics and the steppe people from the Suvorovo culture.
          >
          > This is imo, when many of the old neolithic cultures and probably R1b begins to be integrated into the PIE world. Starting in 4200 and ending around 2800 with the last push of Yamnaya steppe tribes into the Hungarian plain. 1400 years is plenty of time for a language to be adopted by a population. Around 3100 is when Italo-Celtic branches off possibly as result of this Yamnaya migration. This is the beginning of the R1a/R1b east-west split we see today, although it would have been fluid at different times. My guess is that R1b might be connected to the contemporary Vucedol culture(Croatia), which had roots in the Baden(Hungary) and Kostolac(Serbia/Romania)cultures that initiated a large movement of R1b's towards the newly developing Beaker horizon.
          >
          > I think R1a were part of the steppe movements especially towards the east. I don't think they have been in Europe since the ice age. I think they arrived in the mesolithic from the south and east of the Russian steppe. See Anthony's Elshanka ceramic tradition. My guess is that the original foragers who were living in the Dnieper area were I2 who would have been partially absorbed by Tripolye from the west and Sredny Stog(think R1a in 4500 BC)from the east.
          >
        • mhammers72
          Again speculating, but I think the L11 transition to P312/U106 was happening towards the end of this IE-ization period. Roughly 3500-2800 BC. I think the
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 3, 2012
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            Again speculating, but I think the L11 transition to P312/U106 was happening towards the end of this IE-ization period. Roughly 3500-2800 BC. I think the estimates run through Ken's spreadsheet generally support this.

            Also, I'm not saying R1b is specific to any one culture. They were probably present in or passed through Baden, Vucedol, and others towards the end of this period. The main point is that they were concentrated in SE Europe, influenced by the steppe/PIE/Secondary products revolution. I think it is possible that the continous encroachment of steppe populations set people in motion towards the west during the 4th millenium.

            One thing about Vucedol, they were not a continuation or variant of Yamnaya/steppe people. They built fortified sites along the Danube, possibly to keep steppe people out.



            --- In R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com, "mikewww7" <mwwdna@...> wrote:
            >
            > MHammers, I see you think that R1b might be connected to the Vucedol culture. Wikipedia says the "The Vucedol culture was a Indo-European culture that flourished between 3000 and 2200 BC, centered in Syrmia and eastern Slavonia on the right bank of the Danube river, but possibly spreading throughout the Pannonian plain and western Balkans."
            >
            > Do you think this was R1b prior to L11/S127 and its splitting and expansion into the U106/S21 and P312/S116 subclades?
            >
          • wstewrt@att.net
            Dear mhammers72, mhammers72 wrote: I think it is possible that the continous encroachment of steppe populations set people in motion towards the west during
            Message 5 of 9 , May 9, 2012
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              Dear mhammers72,

              mhammers72 wrote: "I think it is possible that the continous encroachment of steppe populations set people in motion towards the west during the 4th millenium."

              I agree. Nomadic herdsmen drove the Slavs west (cattle starve in a forest), the Slavs drove the Germans west, and Anglo-Saxon Germans nearly pushed the Celts out of Great Britain.

              Settled farmers are no match for nomadic herdsmen and terrorists who stole and raped whatever they wanted and destroyed the rest Genghis Khan style. "Mogul campaigns may have resulted in the deaths of 40 million people", and attacked Poland and other Baltic states ~1241.

              Did the same dynamic motivate our Indo-Hittite-speaking R1b ancestors to flee from Mesopotamia, and later from Ancient Egypt and the Fertile Crescent, e.g., during Biblical times?

              "The distribution of this lineage (Haplogroup R1b1b2 R-M269), the diversity within it, and estimates of its age all suggest that it spread with farming from the Near East. Taken with evidence on the origins of other lineages, this indicates that most European Y chromosomes descend from Near Eastern farmers... Previous studies suggested a Paleolithic origin, but here we show that the geographical distribution of its microsatellite diversity is best explained by spread from a single source in the Near East via Anatolia during the Neolithic."

              Sincerely, Stewart
              ++

              --- In R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com, "mhammers72" <toddhammers@...> wrote:
              >
              > Again speculating, but I think the L11 transition to P312/U106 was happening towards the end of this IE-ization period. Roughly 3500-2800 BC. I think the estimates run through Ken's spreadsheet generally support this.
              >
              > Also, I'm not saying R1b is specific to any one culture. They were probably present in or passed through Baden, Vucedol, and others towards the end of this period. The main point is that they were concentrated in SE Europe, influenced by the steppe/PIE/Secondary products revolution. I think it is possible that the continous encroachment of steppe populations set people in motion towards the west during the 4th millenium.
              >
              > One thing about Vucedol, they were not a continuation or variant of Yamnaya/steppe people. They built fortified sites along the Danube, possibly to keep steppe people out.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In R1b-YDNA@yahoogroups.com, "mikewww7" mwwdna@ wrote:
              > >
              > > MHammers, I see you think that R1b might be connected to the Vucedol culture. Wikipedia says the "The Vucedol culture was a Indo-European culture that flourished between 3000 and 2200 BC, centered in Syrmia and eastern Slavonia on the right bank of the Danube river, but possibly spreading throughout the Pannonian plain and western Balkans."
              > >
              > > Do you think this was R1b prior to L11/S127 and its splitting and expansion into the U106/S21 and P312/S116 subclades?
              > >
              >

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