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R1b North-South Cluster

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  • Richard Stevens
    If you have 437=14, 448=18, and H4=10, you probably belong to the R1b North-South Cluster, which thus far is universally R-P312*. This cluster was discovered
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 3, 2010
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      If you have 437=14, 448=18, and H4=10, you probably belong to the R1b North-South Cluster, which thus far is universally R-P312*. This cluster was discovered by Dr. Ken Nordtvedt a few years ago (2007, I think). It is spread throughout Europe, from the Iberian Peninsula to Ukraine. It extends as far north as Scotland and southern Sweden.
       
      My own belief is that this group must have a defining SNP and form its own subclade of P312. It is just that that characteristic SNP has not yet been discovered. The R1b North-South Cluster is BIG. I am guessing that at least one third of all R-P312* guys belong to it.
       
      I really think some enterprising member of the R1b North-South Cluster should contact FTDNA and start an R1b North-South Cluster Y-DNA Project. If you decide to do that, please let me know, and I will send out a bulk email to get the word out to all the R1b North-South guys in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.
       
      If you guys start advocating for yourselves you might speed up the discovery process and get that new SNP a bit quicker.
       
      Just my opinion.
       
      Rich

    • Richard Stevens
      A slight correction: the R1b North-South Cluster extends as far north as northern Norway. Rich ________________________________ From: Richard Stevens
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 3, 2010
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        A slight correction: the R1b North-South Cluster extends as far north as northern Norway.
         
        Rich


        From: Richard Stevens <turdinsky@...>
        To: R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, July 3, 2010 9:10:09 AM
        Subject: [R-P312Project] R1b North-South Cluster

         

        If you have 437=14, 448=18, and H4=10, you probably belong to the R1b North-South Cluster, which thus far is universally R-P312*. This cluster was discovered by Dr. Ken Nordtvedt a few years ago (2007, I think). It is spread throughout Europe, from the Iberian Peninsula to Ukraine. It extends as far north as Scotland and southern Sweden.
         
        My own belief is that this group must have a defining SNP and form its own subclade of P312. It is just that that characteristic SNP has not yet been discovered. The R1b North-South Cluster is BIG. I am guessing that at least one third of all R-P312* guys belong to it.
         
        I really think some enterprising member of the R1b North-South Cluster should contact FTDNA and start an R1b North-South Cluster Y-DNA Project. If you decide to do that, please let me know, and I will send out a bulk email to get the word out to all the R1b North-South guys in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.
         
        If you guys start advocating for yourselves you might speed up the discovery process and get that new SNP a bit quicker.
         
        Just my opinion.
         
        Rich


      • Juan Alfaro
        Mis marcadores son 437 = 15   448 = 19  R-P312  el H4 no me viene como tal en mis resultados. Haplotipo Modal  Europa Occidental,   Region de Origen
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 3, 2010
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          Mis marcadores son 437 = 15   448 = 19  R-P312  el H4 no me viene como tal en mis resultados.
          Haplotipo Modal  Europa Occidental,   Region de Origen Europa del Oeste, Pueblo originario Celta.
          He seguido mi genealogía hasta el siglo XVI en Espña
           
          Por favor los correos me los podian envíar a juanalfarocastilla@...
           
          Saludos.  Juan


          De: Richard Stevens <turdinsky@...>
          Para : R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com
          Enviado el: Sáb , 03 de julio 2010 3:46:46 PM
          Asunto: Re : R1b [ ] R- P312Project Grupo Norte -Sur



          Una pequeña corrección : el R1b Norte-Sur de Cluster Server se extiende por el norte hasta el norte de Noruega .
           
          Rico


          De: Richard Stevens <turdinsky@...>
          Para : R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com
          Enviado el: Sáb , 03 de julio 2010 09:10:09 AM
          Asunto: [R- R1b ] P312Project Grupo Norte -Sur

           

          Si usted tiene 437 = 14 , 448 = 18 , y H4 = 10 , es probable que pertenecen a la R1b Norte -Sur Cluster, que hasta ahora es universalmente R- P312 *. Este grupo fue descubierto por el Dr. Ken Nordtvedt hace unos años (2007, creo). Se extendió por toda Europa , desde la Península Ibérica hasta Ucrania. Se extiende hasta el norte de Escocia y el sur de Suecia .
           
          Mi propia creencia es que este grupo debe tener una definición de SNP y formar su propia subclade del P312 . Es sólo que esta característica SNP no se ha descubierto todavía . El racimo R1b Norte -Sur es grande. Supongo que por lo menos un tercio de todos los chicos * R- P312 un pertenecen a ella .
           
          Realmente creo que algún miembro de la emprendedora R1b Norte-Sur de Cluster Server deben ponerse en contacto e iniciar una FTDNA R1b Norte-Sur de Cluster ADN- Proyecto. Si decide hacerlo, por favor hágamelo saber y voy a enviar un email a granel a correr la voz a todos los chicos R1b Norte-Sur en el R- P312 y el Proyecto subclades .
           
          Si los muchachos empiezan abogar por sí mismos podría acelerar el proceso de descubrimiento y conseguir que más rápido nuevos SNP un poco.
           
          Sólo mi opinión .
           
          Rico





        • L.D.Bruce
          My 437=14 448=19 H4=11 what cluster it that? I m R1b1b2a1b3
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 3, 2010
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            My 437=14 448=19 H4=11 what cluster it that? I'm R1b1b2a1b3

            --- In R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@...> wrote:
            >
            > If you have 437=14, 448=18, and H4=10, you probably belong to the R1b
            > North-South Cluster, which thus far is universally R-P312*. This cluster was
            > discovered by Dr. Ken Nordtvedt a few years ago (2007, I think). It is spread
            > throughout Europe, from the Iberian Peninsula to Ukraine. It extends as far
            > north as Scotland and southern Sweden.
            >
            > My own belief is that this group must have a defining SNP and form its own
            > subclade of P312. It is just that that characteristic SNP has not yet been
            > discovered. The R1b North-South Cluster is BIG. I am guessing that at least one
            > third of all R-P312* guys belong to it.
            >
            > I really think some enterprising member of the R1b North-South Cluster should
            > contact FTDNA and start an R1b North-South Cluster Y-DNA Project. If you decide
            > to do that, please let me know, and I will send out a bulk email to get the word
            > out to all the R1b North-South guys in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.
            >
            > If you guys start advocating for yourselves you might speed up the discovery
            > process and get that new SNP a bit quicker.
            >
            > Just my opinion.
            >
            > Rich
            >
          • Richard Stevens
            I m afraid that doesn t mean a whole lot, at least, not that we know of. There are quite a few guys who have that combination in a number of different
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 3, 2010
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              I'm afraid that doesn't mean a whole lot, at least, not that we know of. There are quite a few guys who have that combination in a number of different subclades.
               
              Rich


              From: L.D.Bruce <brus1066@...>
              To: R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, July 3, 2010 8:53:17 PM
              Subject: [R-P312Project] Re: R1b North-South Cluster

               

              My 437=14 448=19 H4=11 what cluster it that? I'm R1b1b2a1b3

              --- In R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@...> wrote:
              >
              > If you have 437=14, 448=18, and H4=10, you probably belong to the R1b
              > North-South Cluster, which thus far is universally R-P312*. This cluster was
              > discovered by Dr. Ken Nordtvedt a few years ago (2007, I think). It is spread
              > throughout Europe, from the Iberian Peninsula to Ukraine. It extends as far
              > north as Scotland and southern Sweden.
              >
              > My own belief is that this group must have a defining SNP and form its own
              > subclade of P312. It is just that that characteristic SNP has not yet been
              > discovered. The R1b North-South Cluster is BIG. I am guessing that at least one
              > third of all R-P312* guys belong to it.
              >
              > I really think some enterprising member of the R1b North-South Cluster should
              > contact FTDNA and start an R1b North-South Cluster Y-DNA Project. If you decide
              > to do that, please let me know, and I will send out a bulk email to get the word
              > out to all the R1b North-South guys in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.
              >
              > If you guys start advocating for yourselves you might speed up the discovery
              > process and get that new SNP a bit quicker.
              >
              > Just my opinion.
              >
              > Rich
              >


            • Peter Langley
              Welcome to the club!! All of us are not very sure who we are, how we got here or where we came from. ... From: L.D.Bruce To: R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 4, 2010
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                Welcome to the club!!
                All of us are not very sure who we are, how we got here or where we came from.
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: L.D.Bruce
                Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 1:53 AM
                Subject: [R-P312Project] Re: R1b North-South Cluster

                 

                My 437=14 448=19 H4=11 what cluster it that? I'm R1b1b2a1b3

                --- In R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@...> wrote:
                >
                > If you have 437=14, 448=18, and H4=10, you probably belong to the R1b
                > North-South Cluster, which thus far is universally R-P312*. This cluster was
                > discovered by Dr. Ken Nordtvedt a few years ago (2007, I think). It is spread
                > throughout Europe, from the Iberian Peninsula to Ukraine. It extends as far
                > north as Scotland and southern Sweden.
                >
                > My own belief is that this group must have a defining SNP and form its own
                > subclade of P312. It is just that that characteristic SNP has not yet been
                > discovered. The R1b North-South Cluster is BIG. I am guessing that at least one
                > third of all R-P312* guys belong to it.
                >
                > I really think some enterprising member of the R1b North-South Cluster should
                > contact FTDNA and start an R1b North-South Cluster Y-DNA Project. If you decide
                > to do that, please let me know, and I will send out a bulk email to get the word
                > out to all the R1b North-South guys in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.
                >
                > If you guys start advocating for yourselves you might speed up the discovery
                > process and get that new SNP a bit quicker.
                >
                > Just my opinion.
                >
                > Rich
                >

              • swknuckles
                I found this posting from 2.5 years ago and wondered if we have an update on how many North/South cluster members we now have in the project. If there are
                Message 7 of 15 , May 14, 2011
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                  I found this posting from 2.5 years ago and wondered if we have an update on how many "North/South" cluster members we now have in the project. If there are enough of us, would it be viable to begin either a Yahoo group or a separate FTDNA group?

                  Thanks,
                  Steve Knuckles

                  --- In R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com, "swknuckles" <swknuckles@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > All:
                  >
                  > I failed to mention in my previous post that I am descended from
                  > the "Nuccol" mentioned in this post. I am the 7GE4Q on Ysearch.
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Steve Knuckles
                  >
                  > --- In R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I updated the R-P312* Map with "R1b North-South Cluster" notations
                  > for those who did not yet have them. Kohl's note is followed by a
                  > couple of question marks because he has H4=9 and 392=14.
                  > >
                  > > It would be nice if the N-S Cluster guys could get together and
                  > order 23andMe tests and compare SNP data.
                  > >
                  > > Rich
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >  
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > > From: henrybohemia <hohenzollern@>
                  > > To: R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 1:31:51 PM
                  > > Subject: [R-P312Project] R1b North-South Cluster
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > There is renewed interest in a large clade within haplogroup R first
                  > > identified in May 2006 by Ken Nordveldt..
                  > >
                  > > The key STR markers that identify this clade, which is called R1b-NS
                  > > Variance (NS = North-South) , are,
                  > >
                  > > 437 = 14
                  > > 448 = 18
                  > > H4 = 10
                  > >
                  > > "rather than 15,19,11 for standard western Europe R haplotypes." Ken
                  > > Nordveldt goes on to say, "it is strongest in Iberia but has too
                  > many
                  > > members from northwest Europe to explain away by Iberians
                  > > away-from-home. ............ . It originated with the S116/P312
                  > fellow,
                  > > as I understand the clade is derived for this SNP as well as being
                  > > L21-. It has sufficient German members it could have begun its
                  > > demographic expansion back there before moving on to Iberia."
                  > >
                  > > The source for above is a recent RootsWeb thread, which has more
                  > > details, at:
                  > > http://archiver. rootsweb. ancestry. com/th/read/ GENEALOGY-
                  > DNA/2008- 11/1227904705
                  > >
                  > > Members of R-P312 Project were made aware of preliminary findings
                  > > linking the Rb1-NS Variance to L21- in the following Email, dated
                  > > 11/28, from Rick Arnold,
                  > >
                  > > "Neal Fox has identified a fairly large cluster of apparent R-P312*
                  > in
                  > > the project. It appears to be identical to a variety Ken Nordtvedt
                  > > identified some time ago, which he called R1b-NS (for north-
                  > south) .
                  > > It's key features are dys 437=14, 448=18 and H4=10 (there's one
                  > member
                  > > with 9 on H4, but I think he probably qualifies, as the mode is 11
                  > on
                  > > this marker). Neal suggested this group may benefit from a 23andme
                  > > order, since it appears to be a fairly old variety/subclade, and
                  > > chances are probably good for finding a clade-defining SNP. There
                  > are
                  > > 16 [18] members in the project fitting this profile, and so far none
                  > > has tested positive for any downstream SNPs, including L21, for
                  > which
                  > > all 7 tested [for L21] have been ancestral [negative].
                  > > Geographically, these folks are all over Europe, so I'd guess this
                  > is
                  > > a fairly old variety. Anyway, just wanted to pass that along."
                  > >
                  > > R-P312 Project members who have the key R1b-NS markers are
                  > designated
                  > > in their description on the project map "R-P312*/R-S116* Eurasia" as
                  > > "R1b North-South Cluster."
                  > >
                  > > Current R-P312 Project members that are R1b-NS and L21-
                  > > Nuccol, England/Scotland. ....RP312 B.Isles L21-.......7GE4Q
                  > >
                  > > Larkin...... ......... ........RP312 B.Isles L21-......9NXJJ
                  > >
                  > > Pittillo, Scotland/Virginia. .RP312 B.Isles L21- .....WQ7G3
                  > >
                  > > Winter, England ............ .RP312 B.Isles L21- .....KT43P
                  > >
                  > > Clark, in GA or NC ..........RP312 Col. L21- ........KWS43
                  > >
                  > > Chernik, Ukraine ............. R-P312 E.Euro L21- .....YHP6P
                  > >
                  > > Zencker, Bohemia ............ R-P312 E.Euro L21- .....EP96D
                  > >
                  > > Björkman,Sweden ............ .RP312 Scand.. L21- ......WPJPN
                  > >
                  > > Current R-P312 Project members that are R1b-NS & have not tested
                  > L21.
                  > > Gatewood, England ...........R- P312 British Isles....JJWV4
                  > >
                  > > Leyton, Ireland ............ .R-P312 British Isles....V8FBK
                  > >
                  > > Townsin, England ............ R-P312 British Isles ...WEH5F
                  > >
                  > > López,B. Mexico ............ .R-P312 Colonial ........R546S
                  > >
                  > > Lopez, P. Spain ............ .R-P312 S. Europe .......7XAUY
                  > >
                  > > Skantz, Denmark ............. .R-P312 Scandinavia. .....EEAJQ
                  > >
                  > > Kohl, Germany ............ ...R-P312 W. Europe
                  > >
                  > > Klaasen, Netherlands. ........R- P312 W. Europe .......6GZHN
                  > >
                  > > Vanderhoeven, Netherlands ...R-P312 W. Europe .......872W6
                  > >
                  > > Ruiz, Mexico "L21-" ? .......Unassigned Member ......AEDQT
                  > >
                  > > Bravo, Spain, "L21-" ? ......Unassigned Member ......7PEDQ
                  > >
                  > > Thus, so far all R-P312 project members who are R1b-NS, and have L21
                  > > tested, are negative for that SNP (L21-), which is a strong
                  > > preliminary indication that a portion of L21- is likely a new
                  > > sub-clade currently described by the the key STR features of R1b-NS.
                  > > The goal for future research should be to find if there is a unique
                  > > SNP to officially separate R1b-NS/L21- into a new defined clade of
                  > R-P312.
                  > >
                  > > A discussion of this has also gone on at dna-forums at:
                  > > http://dna-forums. org/index. php?showtopic= 5366
                  > >
                  >
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