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Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster

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  • R. Stevens
    Update: We now have five members of this haplotype cluster as members of the R-L21 Plus Project. One of them (Prager) has already tested L21+. The other four
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 2, 2009
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      Update:

      We now have five members of this haplotype cluster as members of the R-L21 Plus Project. One of them (Prager) has already tested L21+. The other four are awaiting L21 results, and two of them have already tested P312+ and negative for everything downstream of it except L21.

      So, we should have some confirmation on this cluster sometime soon (in the next month or two).

      I'll keep you updated, but you can see it yourself on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.

      --- In R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@...> wrote:
      >
      > I think I may have stumbled upon something interesting: an Eastern European Ashkenazi R-L21* group or cluster with the following off-modal values -
      >
      > 388=11
      > 392=14
      > 459a,b=9,9
      > 464c=15
      > and (for two of them thus far)
      > CDYa,b=39,41
      >
      > My two L21+ anchors for this discovery (if it is one) are Prager (T8A6N) and Lewis (Lubatinsky, B2BNR), both of whom trace their most distant y-dna ancestors to Lithuania.
      >
      > The others are Kabo (from Latvia, 534VG), Marcus (from Ukraine, SJFHN), and Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ). Kabo only has 25 markers in YSearch, but I know he actually matches Prager 33/37. Prager also has at least three other Ashkenazi matches that are not currently in YSearch, one of which is 34/37, but we'll stick to the ones in YSearch, which are public.
      >
      > I am thinking that all of these men are R-L21*. I know Prager and Lewis/Lubatinsky are. Wish I could talk the others into ordering L21 tests.
      >
      > Opinions?
      >
      > Rich
      >
    • Jean-Louis Blackburn
      Hello. My guess is that the Celts were such seafarers that the L-21 could show up anywhere in the world that s near a coastline. Sent from my iPhone On 2 août
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 2, 2009
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        Hello. My guess is that the Celts were such seafarers that the L-21 could show up anywhere in the world that's near a coastline. 

        Sent from my iPhone

        On 2 août 2009, at 12:02, "R. Stevens" <turdinsky@...> wrote:

         

        Update:

        We now have five members of this haplotype cluster as members of the R-L21 Plus Project. One of them (Prager) has already tested L21+. The other four are awaiting L21 results, and two of them have already tested P312+ and negative for everything downstream of it except L21.

        So, we should have some confirmation on this cluster sometime soon (in the next month or two).

        I'll keep you updated, but you can see it yourself on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.

        --- In R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@. ..> wrote:
        >
        > I think I may have stumbled upon something interesting: an Eastern European Ashkenazi R-L21* group or cluster with the following off-modal values -
        >
        > 388=11
        > 392=14
        > 459a,b=9,9
        > 464c=15
        > and (for two of them thus far)
        > CDYa,b=39,41
        >
        > My two L21+ anchors for this discovery (if it is one) are Prager (T8A6N) and Lewis (Lubatinsky, B2BNR), both of whom trace their most distant y-dna ancestors to Lithuania.
        >
        > The others are Kabo (from Latvia, 534VG), Marcus (from Ukraine, SJFHN), and Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ). Kabo only has 25 markers in YSearch, but I know he actually matches Prager 33/37. Prager also has at least three other Ashkenazi matches that are not currently in YSearch, one of which is 34/37, but we'll stick to the ones in YSearch, which are public.
        >
        > I am thinking that all of these men are R-L21*. I know Prager and Lewis/Lubatinsky are. Wish I could talk the others into ordering L21 tests.
        >
        > Opinions?
        >
        > Rich
        >


      • Richard Stevens
        There were Ashkenazi migrations to Eastern Europe from Central Europe during the Middle Ages due to persecution. Prager s surname may be indicative of
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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          There were Ashkenazi migrations to Eastern Europe from Central Europe during the Middle Ages due to persecution. Prager's surname may be indicative of residence in or near Prague or at Praga on the Vistula at the time the surname was taken: http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Prager-family-history.ashx
           
          Rich


          From: Jean-Louis Blackburn <seyanehe@...>
          To: "R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com" <R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 3:11:08 PM
          Subject: Re: [R-P312Project] Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster

           

          Hello. My guess is that the Celts were such seafarers that the L-21 could show up anywhere in the world that's near a coastline. 

          Sent from my iPhone

          On 2 août 2009, at 12:02, "R. Stevens" <turdinsky@yahoo. com> wrote:

           

          Update:

          We now have five members of this haplotype cluster as members of the R-L21 Plus Project. One of them (Prager) has already tested L21+. The other four are awaiting L21 results, and two of them have already tested P312+ and negative for everything downstream of it except L21..

          So, we should have some confirmation on this cluster sometime soon (in the next month or two).

          I'll keep you updated, but you can see it yourself on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.

          --- In R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@. ..> wrote:
          >
          > I think I may have stumbled upon something interesting: an Eastern European Ashkenazi R-L21* group or cluster with the following off-modal values -
          >
          > 388=11
          > 392=14
          > 459a,b=9,9
          > 464c=15
          > and (for two of them thus far)
          > CDYa,b=39,41
          >
          > My two L21+ anchors for this discovery (if it is one) are Prager (T8A6N) and Lewis (Lubatinsky, B2BNR), both of whom trace their most distant y-dna ancestors to Lithuania.
          >
          > The others are Kabo (from Latvia, 534VG), Marcus (from Ukraine, SJFHN), and Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ). Kabo only has 25 markers in YSearch, but I know he actually matches Prager 33/37. Prager also has at least three other Ashkenazi matches that are not currently in YSearch, one of which is 34/37, but we'll stick to the ones in YSearch, which are public.
          >
          > I am thinking that all of these men are R-L21*. I know Prager and Lewis/Lubatinsky are. Wish I could talk the others into ordering L21 tests.
          >
          > Opinions?
          >
          > Rich
          >



        • mwwalsh
          Is there any chance these people are related to the ancient Khazarians? http://www.khazaria.com/ Have any Khazarians been DNA tested?
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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            Is there any chance these people are related to the ancient Khazarians?

            http://www.khazaria.com/

            Have any Khazarians been DNA tested?

            --- In R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@...> wrote:
            >
            > There were Ashkenazi migrations to Eastern Europe from Central Europe during the Middle Ages due to persecution. Prager's surname may be indicative of residence in or near Prague or at Praga on the Vistula at the time the surname was taken: http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Prager-family-history.ashx
            >
            > Rich

            > ________________________________
            > From: Jean-Louis Blackburn <seyanehe@...>
            > To: "R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com" <R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 3:11:08 PM
            > Subject: Re: [R-P312Project] Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
            >
            >  
            > Hello. My guess is that the Celts were such seafarers that the L-21 could show up anywhere in the world that's near a coastline. 
            >
            > Sent from my iPhone
            >
            > On 2 août 2009, at 12:02, "R. Stevens" <turdinsky@yahoo. com> wrote:
            >
            >
            >  
            > >Update:
            > >
            > >We now have five members of this haplotype cluster as members of the R-L21 Plus Project. One of them (Prager) has already tested L21+. The other four are awaiting L21 results, and two of them have already tested P312+ and negative for everything downstream of it except L21.
            > >
            > >So, we should have some confirmation on this cluster sometime soon (in the next month or two).
            > >
            > >I'll keep you updated, but you can see it yourself on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.
            > >
            > >--- In R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@ ..> wrote:
            > >>
            > >> I think I may have stumbled upon something interesting: an Eastern European Ashkenazi R-L21* group or cluster with the following off-modal values -
            > >>
            > >> 388=11
            > >> 392=14
            > >> 459a,b=9,9
            > >> 464c=15
            > >> and (for two of them thus far)
            > >> CDYa,b=39,41
            > >>
            > >> My two L21+ anchors for this discovery (if it is one) are Prager (T8A6N) and Lewis (Lubatinsky, B2BNR), both of whom trace their most distant y-dna ancestors to Lithuania.
            > >>
            > >> The others are Kabo (from Latvia, 534VG), Marcus (from Ukraine, SJFHN), and Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ). Kabo only has 25 markers in YSearch, but I know he actually matches Prager 33/37. Prager also has at least three other Ashkenazi matches that are not currently in YSearch, one of which is 34/37, but we'll stick to the ones in YSearch, which are public.
            > >>
            > >> I am thinking that all of these men are R-L21*. I know Prager and Lewis/Lubatinsky are. Wish I could talk the others into ordering L21 tests.
            > >>
            > >> Opinions?
            > >>
            > >> Rich
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Richard Stevens
            I ll look, but my recollection is that Khazars are mostly R1a. What R1b1b2 they have is probably R-P310*. That s my guess, anyway. Rich
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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              I'll look, but my recollection is that Khazars are mostly R1a. What R1b1b2 they have is probably R-P310*. That's my guess, anyway..
               
              Rich


              From: mwwalsh <mwwalsh7@...>
              To: R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 11:11:20 AM
              Subject: [R-P312Project] Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster

               

              Is there any chance these people are related to the ancient Khazarians?

              http://www.khazaria.com/

              Have any Khazarians been DNA tested?

              --- In R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@. ..> wrote:
              >
              > There were Ashkenazi migrations to Eastern Europe from Central Europe during the Middle Ages due to persecution. Prager's surname may be indicative of residence in or near Prague or at Praga on the Vistula at the time the surname was taken: http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Prager-family-history.ashx
              >
              > Rich

              > ____________ _________ _________ __
              > From: Jean-Louis Blackburn <seyanehe@.. .>
              > To: "R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com" <R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com>
              > Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 3:11:08 PM
              > Subject: Re: [R-P312Project] Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
              >
              >  
              > Hello. My guess is that the Celts were such seafarers that the L-21 could show up anywhere in the world that's near a coastline. 
              >
              > Sent from my iPhone
              >
              > On 2 août 2009, at 12:02, "R. Stevens" <turdinsky@yahoo. com> wrote:
              >
              >
              >  
              > >Update:
              > >
              > >We now have five members of this haplotype cluster as members of the R-L21 Plus Project. One of them (Prager) has already tested L21+. The other four are awaiting L21 results, and two of them have already tested P312+ and negative for everything downstream of it except L21.
              > >
              > >So, we should have some confirmation on this cluster sometime soon (in the next month or two).
              > >
              > >I'll keep you updated, but you can see it yourself on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.
              > >
              > >--- In R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@ ..> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> I think I may have stumbled upon something interesting: an Eastern European Ashkenazi R-L21* group or cluster with the following off-modal values -
              > >>
              > >> 388=11
              > >> 392=14
              > >> 459a,b=9,9
              > >> 464c=15
              > >> and (for two of them thus far)
              > >> CDYa,b=39,41
              > >>
              > >> My two L21+ anchors for this discovery (if it is one) are Prager (T8A6N) and Lewis (Lubatinsky, B2BNR), both of whom trace their most distant y-dna ancestors to Lithuania.
              > >>
              > >> The others are Kabo (from Latvia, 534VG), Marcus (from Ukraine, SJFHN), and Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ). Kabo only has 25 markers in YSearch, but I know he actually matches Prager 33/37. Prager also has at least three other Ashkenazi matches that are not currently in YSearch, one of which is 34/37, but we'll stick to the ones in YSearch, which are public.
              > >>
              > >> I am thinking that all of these men are R-L21*. I know Prager and Lewis/Lubatinsky are. Wish I could talk the others into ordering L21 tests.
              > >>
              > >> Opinions?
              > >>
              > >> Rich
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              >


            • Jean-Louis Blackburn
              Aren t the Jews matrilineal? So there could be any Y chrom at any time but if the mother is a Jew, the baby is a Jew. This have come about as early as the Sea
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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                Aren't the Jews matrilineal? So there could be any Y chrom at any time but if the mother is a Jew, the baby is a Jew. 
                This have come about as early as the Sea Peoples' raids or as late as today. 
                I think...

                Sent from my iPhone

                On 2 août 2009, at 12:02, "R. Stevens" <turdinsky@...> wrote:

                 

                Update:

                We now have five members of this haplotype cluster as members of the R-L21 Plus Project. One of them (Prager) has already tested L21+. The other four are awaiting L21 results, and two of them have already tested P312+ and negative for everything downstream of it except L21.

                So, we should have some confirmation on this cluster sometime soon (in the next month or two).

                I'll keep you updated, but you can see it yourself on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.

                --- In R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@. ..> wrote:
                >
                > I think I may have stumbled upon something interesting: an Eastern European Ashkenazi R-L21* group or cluster with the following off-modal values -
                >
                > 388=11
                > 392=14
                > 459a,b=9,9
                > 464c=15
                > and (for two of them thus far)
                > CDYa,b=39,41
                >
                > My two L21+ anchors for this discovery (if it is one) are Prager (T8A6N) and Lewis (Lubatinsky, B2BNR), both of whom trace their most distant y-dna ancestors to Lithuania.
                >
                > The others are Kabo (from Latvia, 534VG), Marcus (from Ukraine, SJFHN), and Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ). Kabo only has 25 markers in YSearch, but I know he actually matches Prager 33/37. Prager also has at least three other Ashkenazi matches that are not currently in YSearch, one of which is 34/37, but we'll stick to the ones in YSearch, which are public.
                >
                > I am thinking that all of these men are R-L21*. I know Prager and Lewis/Lubatinsky are. Wish I could talk the others into ordering L21 tests.
                >
                > Opinions?
                >
                > Rich
                >


              • Richard Stevens
                As I understand it, the rules have changed on that issue at different times.. I think you have to look at the history of the Ashkenazim and what is likely and
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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                  As I understand it, the rules have changed on that issue at different times. I think you have to look at the history of the Ashkenazim and what is likely and not so much at what is merely possible. We know L21 is found at a pretty good clip in West Central Europe. We also know that groups of Ashkenazim migrated from Germany to Eastern Europe during the Middle Ages to escape persecution. Putting two and two together, my guess is a Central European (probably German or Czech) origin for this cluster.
                   
                  That's just my opinion. Sea People or Khazars would be more interesting, of course.
                  Rich


                  From: Jean-Louis Blackburn <seyanehe@...>
                  To: "R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com" <R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 12:36:04 PM
                  Subject: Re: [R-P312Project] Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster

                   

                  Aren't the Jews matrilineal? So there could be any Y chrom at any time but if the mother is a Jew, the baby is a Jew. 
                  This have come about as early as the Sea Peoples' raids or as late as today. 
                  I think...

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On 2 août 2009, at 12:02, "R. Stevens" <turdinsky@yahoo. com> wrote:

                   

                  Update:

                  We now have five members of this haplotype cluster as members of the R-L21 Plus Project. One of them (Prager) has already tested L21+. The other four are awaiting L21 results, and two of them have already tested P312+ and negative for everything downstream of it except L21.

                  So, we should have some confirmation on this cluster sometime soon (in the next month or two).

                  I'll keep you updated, but you can see it yourself on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.

                  --- In R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@. ..> wrote:
                  >
                  > I think I may have stumbled upon something interesting: an Eastern European Ashkenazi R-L21* group or cluster with the following off-modal values -
                  >
                  > 388=11
                  > 392=14
                  > 459a,b=9,9
                  > 464c=15
                  > and (for two of them thus far)
                  > CDYa,b=39,41
                  >
                  > My two L21+ anchors for this discovery (if it is one) are Prager (T8A6N) and Lewis (Lubatinsky, B2BNR), both of whom trace their most distant y-dna ancestors to Lithuania.
                  >
                  > The others are Kabo (from Latvia, 534VG), Marcus (from Ukraine, SJFHN), and Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ). Kabo only has 25 markers in YSearch, but I know he actually matches Prager 33/37. Prager also has at least three other Ashkenazi matches that are not currently in YSearch, one of which is 34/37, but we'll stick to the ones in YSearch, which are public.
                  >
                  > I am thinking that all of these men are R-L21*. I know Prager and Lewis/Lubatinsky are. Wish I could talk the others into ordering L21 tests.
                  >
                  > Opinions?
                  >
                  > Rich
                  >



                • Jean-Louis Blackburn
                  That s what I was getting at. As opposed to being sons of Abraham through male descent. There had to be mixing. Sent from my iPhone On 3 août 2009, at 17:13,
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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                    That's what I was getting at. As opposed to being sons of Abraham through male descent. There had to be mixing. 

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On 3 août 2009, at 17:13, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@...> wrote:

                     

                    As I understand it, the rules have changed on that issue at different times. I think you have to look at the history of the Ashkenazim and what is likely and not so much at what is merely possible. We know L21 is found at a pretty good clip in West Central Europe. We also know that groups of Ashkenazim migrated from Germany to Eastern Europe during the Middle Ages to escape persecution. Putting two and two together, my guess is a Central European (probably German or Czech) origin for this cluster.
                     
                    That's just my opinion. Sea People or Khazars would be more interesting, of course.
                    Rich


                    From: Jean-Louis Blackburn <seyanehe@yahoo. com>
                    To: "R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com" <R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com>
                    Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 12:36:04 PM
                    Subject: Re: [R-P312Project] Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster

                     

                    Aren't the Jews matrilineal? So there could be any Y chrom at any time but if the mother is a Jew, the baby is a Jew. 
                    This have come about as early as the Sea Peoples' raids or as late as today. 
                    I think...

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On 2 août 2009, at 12:02, "R. Stevens" <turdinsky@yahoo. com> wrote:

                     

                    Update:

                    We now have five members of this haplotype cluster as members of the R-L21 Plus Project. One of them (Prager) has already tested L21+. The other four are awaiting L21 results, and two of them have already tested P312+ and negative for everything downstream of it except L21.

                    So, we should have some confirmation on this cluster sometime soon (in the next month or two).

                    I'll keep you updated, but you can see it yourself on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.

                    --- In R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@. ..> wrote:
                    >
                    > I think I may have stumbled upon something interesting: an Eastern European Ashkenazi R-L21* group or cluster with the following off-modal values -
                    >
                    > 388=11
                    > 392=14
                    > 459a,b=9,9
                    > 464c=15
                    > and (for two of them thus far)
                    > CDYa,b=39,41
                    >
                    > My two L21+ anchors for this discovery (if it is one) are Prager (T8A6N) and Lewis (Lubatinsky, B2BNR), both of whom trace their most distant y-dna ancestors to Lithuania.
                    >
                    > The others are Kabo (from Latvia, 534VG), Marcus (from Ukraine, SJFHN), and Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ). Kabo only has 25 markers in YSearch, but I know he actually matches Prager 33/37. Prager also has at least three other Ashkenazi matches that are not currently in YSearch, one of which is 34/37, but we'll stick to the ones in YSearch, which are public.
                    >
                    > I am thinking that all of these men are R-L21*. I know Prager and Lewis/Lubatinsky are. Wish I could talk the others into ordering L21 tests.
                    >
                    > Opinions?
                    >
                    > Rich
                    >




                  • Richard Stevens
                    Kabo (Latvia, 534VG) has gone L21+! He is now in the Eastern Europe category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project. Rich
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 4, 2009
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                      Kabo (Latvia, 534VG) has gone L21+!

                      He is now in the Eastern Europe category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.
                       
                      Rich



                      From: Richard Stevens <turdinsky@...>
                      To: R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 8:13:51 PM
                      Subject: Re: [R-P312Project] Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster

                       

                      As I understand it, the rules have changed on that issue at different times. I think you have to look at the history of the Ashkenazim and what is likely and not so much at what is merely possible. We know L21 is found at a pretty good clip in West Central Europe. We also know that groups of Ashkenazim migrated from Germany to Eastern Europe during the Middle Ages to escape persecution. Putting two and two together, my guess is a Central European (probably German or Czech) origin for this cluster.
                       
                      That's just my opinion. Sea People or Khazars would be more interesting, of course.
                      Rich


                      From: Jean-Louis Blackburn <seyanehe@yahoo. com>
                      To: "R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com" <R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com>
                      Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 12:36:04 PM
                      Subject: Re: [R-P312Project] Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster

                       

                      Aren't the Jews matrilineal? So there could be any Y chrom at any time but if the mother is a Jew, the baby is a Jew. 
                      This have come about as early as the Sea Peoples' raids or as late as today. 
                      I think....

                      Sent from my iPhone

                      On 2 août 2009, at 12:02, "R. Stevens" <turdinsky@yahoo. com> wrote:

                       

                      Update:

                      We now have five members of this haplotype cluster as members of the R-L21 Plus Project. One of them (Prager) has already tested L21+. The other four are awaiting L21 results, and two of them have already tested P312+ and negative for everything downstream of it except L21.

                      So, we should have some confirmation on this cluster sometime soon (in the next month or two).

                      I'll keep you updated, but you can see it yourself on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.

                      --- In R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@. ..> wrote:
                      >
                      > I think I may have stumbled upon something interesting: an Eastern European Ashkenazi R-L21* group or cluster with the following off-modal values -
                      >
                      > 388=11
                      > 392=14
                      > 459a,b=9,9
                      > 464c=15
                      > and (for two of them thus far)
                      > CDYa,b=39,41
                      >
                      > My two L21+ anchors for this discovery (if it is one) are Prager (T8A6N) and Lewis (Lubatinsky, B2BNR), both of whom trace their most distant y-dna ancestors to Lithuania.
                      >
                      > The others are Kabo (from Latvia, 534VG), Marcus (from Ukraine, SJFHN), and Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ). Kabo only has 25 markers in YSearch, but I know he actually matches Prager 33/37. Prager also has at least three other Ashkenazi matches that are not currently in YSearch, one of which is 34/37, but we'll stick to the ones in YSearch, which are public.
                      >
                      > I am thinking that all of these men are R-L21*. I know Prager and Lewis/Lubatinsky are. Wish I could talk the others into ordering L21 tests.
                      >
                      > Opinions?
                      >
                      > Rich
                      >




                    • Richard Stevens
                      Two more members of this cluster have gotten L21+ results: Madan and Lewis (Lubatinsky). That makes four members of this cluster who have tested L21+ thus far:
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 5, 2009
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                        Two more members of this cluster have gotten L21+ results: Madan and Lewis (Lubatinsky).

                        That makes four members of this cluster who have tested L21+ thus far: Kabo, Lewis, Madan, and Prager.

                        As I mentioned before, I have found at least 19 different, apparently Ashkenazi surnames belonging to members of this cluster.

                        It seems pretty well established now that this is indeed a solidly L21+ haplotype cluster. :-)
                         
                        Rich


                        From: R. Stevens <turdinsky@...>
                        To: R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 3:02:38 PM
                        Subject: [R-P312Project] Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster

                         

                        Update:

                        We now have five members of this haplotype cluster as members of the R-L21 Plus Project. One of them (Prager) has already tested L21+. The other four are awaiting L21 results, and two of them have already tested P312+ and negative for everything downstream of it except L21.

                        So, we should have some confirmation on this cluster sometime soon (in the next month or two).

                        I'll keep you updated, but you can see it yourself on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.

                        --- In R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@. ..> wrote:
                        >
                        > I think I may have stumbled upon something interesting: an Eastern European Ashkenazi R-L21* group or cluster with the following off-modal values -
                        >
                        > 388=11
                        > 392=14
                        > 459a,b=9,9
                        > 464c=15
                        > and (for two of them thus far)
                        > CDYa,b=39,41
                        >
                        > My two L21+ anchors for this discovery (if it is one) are Prager (T8A6N) and Lewis (Lubatinsky, B2BNR), both of whom trace their most distant y-dna ancestors to Lithuania.
                        >
                        > The others are Kabo (from Latvia, 534VG), Marcus (from Ukraine, SJFHN), and Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ). Kabo only has 25 markers in YSearch, but I know he actually matches Prager 33/37. Prager also has at least three other Ashkenazi matches that are not currently in YSearch, one of which is 34/37, but we'll stick to the ones in YSearch, which are public.
                        >
                        > I am thinking that all of these men are R-L21*. I know Prager and Lewis/Lubatinsky are. Wish I could talk the others into ordering L21 tests.
                        >
                        > Opinions?
                        >
                        > Rich
                        >


                      • mwwalsh
                        Where is Madan from?
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 5, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Where is Madan from?

                          --- In R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Two more members of this cluster have gotten L21+ results: Madan and Lewis (Lubatinsky).
                          >
                          > That makes four members of this cluster who have tested L21+ thus far: Kabo, Lewis, Madan, and Prager.
                          >
                          > As I mentioned before, I have found at least 19 different, apparently Ashkenazi surnames belonging to members of this cluster.
                          >
                          > It seems pretty well established now that this is indeed a solidly L21+ haplotype cluster. :-)
                          >
                          > Rich
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: R. Stevens <turdinsky@...>
                          > To: R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 3:02:38 PM
                          > Subject: [R-P312Project] Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
                          >
                          >  
                          > Update:
                          >
                          > We now have five members of this haplotype cluster as members of the R-L21 Plus Project. One of them (Prager) has already tested L21+. The other four are awaiting L21 results, and two of them have already tested P312+ and negative for everything downstream of it except L21.
                          >
                          > So, we should have some confirmation on this cluster sometime soon (in the next month or two).
                          >
                          > I'll keep you updated, but you can see it yourself on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.
                          >
                          > --- In R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@ ..> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I think I may have stumbled upon something interesting: an Eastern European Ashkenazi R-L21* group or cluster with the following off-modal values -
                          > >
                          > > 388=11
                          > > 392=14
                          > > 459a,b=9,9
                          > > 464c=15
                          > > and (for two of them thus far)
                          > > CDYa,b=39,41
                          > >
                          > > My two L21+ anchors for this discovery (if it is one) are Prager (T8A6N) and Lewis (Lubatinsky, B2BNR), both of whom trace their most distant y-dna ancestors to Lithuania.
                          > >
                          > > The others are Kabo (from Latvia, 534VG), Marcus (from Ukraine, SJFHN), and Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ). Kabo only has 25 markers in YSearch, but I know he actually matches Prager 33/37. Prager also has at least three other Ashkenazi matches that are not currently in YSearch, one of which is 34/37, but we'll stick to the ones in YSearch, which are public.
                          > >
                          > > I am thinking that all of these men are R-L21*. I know Prager and Lewis/Lubatinsky are. Wish I could talk the others into ordering L21 tests.
                          > >
                          > > Opinions?
                          > >
                          > > Rich
                          > >
                          >
                        • Richard Stevens
                          Eastern Europe somewhere, but he hasn t given me the specifics yet. I have asked him to complete his Plot Ancetsral Locations page and to create a YSearch
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 5, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Eastern Europe somewhere, but he hasn't given me the specifics yet. I have asked him to complete his "Plot Ancetsral Locations" page and to create a YSearch entry. Last time he wrote me he said he has a huge backlog of emails, so it may take him awhile to get back to me and to do those other things.
                             
                            Rich


                            From: mwwalsh <mwwalsh7@...>
                            To: R-P312Project@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 11:21:03 AM
                            Subject: [R-P312Project] Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster

                             

                            Where is Madan from?

                            --- In R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@. ..> wrote:
                            >
                            > Two more members of this cluster have gotten L21+ results: Madan and Lewis (Lubatinsky) .
                            >
                            > That makes four members of this cluster who have tested L21+ thus far: Kabo, Lewis, Madan, and Prager.
                            >
                            > As I mentioned before, I have found at least 19 different, apparently Ashkenazi surnames belonging to members of this cluster.
                            >
                            > It seems pretty well established now that this is indeed a solidly L21+ haplotype cluster. :-)
                            >
                            > Rich
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ____________ _________ _________ __
                            > From: R. Stevens <turdinsky@. ..>
                            > To: R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com
                            > Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2009 3:02:38 PM
                            > Subject: [R-P312Project] Re: A Possible Ashkenazi R-L21* Group or Cluster
                            >
                            >  
                            > Update:
                            >
                            > We now have five members of this haplotype cluster as members of the R-L21 Plus Project. One of them (Prager) has already tested L21+. The other four are awaiting L21 results, and two of them have already tested P312+ and negative for everything downstream of it except L21.
                            >
                            > So, we should have some confirmation on this cluster sometime soon (in the next month or two).
                            >
                            > I'll keep you updated, but you can see it yourself on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.
                            >
                            > --- In R-P312Project@ yahoogroups. com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@ ..> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I think I may have stumbled upon something interesting: an Eastern European Ashkenazi R-L21* group or cluster with the following off-modal values -
                            > >
                            > > 388=11
                            > > 392=14
                            > > 459a,b=9,9
                            > > 464c=15
                            > > and (for two of them thus far)
                            > > CDYa,b=39,41
                            > >
                            > > My two L21+ anchors for this discovery (if it is one) are Prager (T8A6N) and Lewis (Lubatinsky, B2BNR), both of whom trace their most distant y-dna ancestors to Lithuania.
                            > >
                            > > The others are Kabo (from Latvia, 534VG), Marcus (from Ukraine, SJFHN), and Millstein (unk origin, 2Y8VJ).. Kabo only has 25 markers in YSearch, but I know he actually matches Prager 33/37. Prager also has at least three other Ashkenazi matches that are not currently in YSearch, one of which is 34/37, but we'll stick to the ones in YSearch, which are public.
                            > >
                            > > I am thinking that all of these men are R-L21*. I know Prager and Lewis/Lubatinsky are. Wish I could talk the others into ordering L21 tests.
                            > >
                            > > Opinions?
                            > >
                            > > Rich
                            > >
                            >


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