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any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

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  • dnalister@comcast.net
    I don t really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 23, 2009
      I don't really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that the logical next step would be to identify any men who match on most of the key Irish type III markers and try to get them to test. I would also look at the placement of Irish type III men on phylographic charts like the one that Vince Tilroe did in May and the one that Anatole Klyosov did more recently. The closest neighbors of Irish type III men would, ideally, be asked to test. It may be that Dennis Wright and/or others are already pursuing this approach.

      It is easy to find the Irish type III men on Vince's May chart:

      http://vince.tilroe.ca/P312/L21_2009_05_18.png

      Does anybody know where the Irish type III are on the chart from Anatole? Mike posted it in the files section for this group. I think the linear diagram, which is listed second, is most useful.

      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/

      These charts probably do not include all of the best candidates for L226 testing, because they are limited to 67 marker haplotypes for men who have done L21 testing and received a positive result. Still it would make sense to use them to identify good candidates if that has not already been done.

      Kirsten

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Richard Stevens" <turdinsky@...>
      To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 6:36:26 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
      Subject: Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

       

      How so? Once just about everybody and his brother has tested for L226, and the only guys who get a positive result are Irish Type III, why keep tracking the negatives? Irish Type III is a pretty distinctive haplotype. If one is Irish Type III or close, he should test for L226.
       
      Everybody else is L226-.
       
      At some point, after so very many tests, even if someone outside of IT3 got an L226+ result, it would have to be chalked up to coincidence, a fluke, unless it happened enough to make it clear it was something more than that. An L226+ result could show up like that in a haplogroup otuside of R.
       
      I haven't counted the number of tests yet, but there have been a lot of them. How many does it take before we consider the verdict in?
       
      Rich

      From: mikewww7 <mwwdna@...>
      To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 11:53:27 AM
      Subject: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

       

      Alex,

      I agree 100% that L226- results are useful for defining the boundaries of the R-L226+ haplogroup. The problem is that stand-alone or singleton tests are only useful in that regard if negative. For the person who is L226-, they receive little value. For people in other R-L21* downstream haplogroups, such as R-L193+ and R-159.2+, they receive no new information as well. There are actually more confirmed R-L159.2+ people now that R-L226+ people. That may change, but some of these other SNP's may not be insignificant.

      That's why I recommend considering "package" type orders where you get the whole picture. Even if you are are negative for everything, you know that and you are a true R-L21* "asterisk" person and that is who should be comparing yourself against - other true R-L21* "asterisk" people. At the same time, the whole of R-L21+ is better understood because boundaries for all of the new SNP's are also set.

      I think stand-alone / singleton type SNP orders are most useful where your haplotype fit indicates you have an excellent chance of being positive / derived. In that case, you are placing a calculated bet.

      Don't forget, if you want to order something and you are unsure of SNP testing and you don't have 67 markers tested yet, make sure to get tested to 67 markers. That's always of value.

      Regards,
      Mike

      --- In RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com, "Alex" <scotsgenealogy@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Rich,
      >
      > It seems to me that the negative results are useful for defining the boundaries of IT3; it is after all only defined by a sequence of STR markers. There will no doubt be various haplotypes out there that sit in some grey area between clearly being a part of IT3, and not. The negatives will help in these cases just as much as the positive results do.
      >
      > Alex
      >
      > --- In RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com, Richard Stevens <turdinsky@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Mike is a co-admin of the project. He has the same access I do. There are loads of negatives, believe me! I'm not sure why you need them, when L226- is the default test result for any non-IT3. Believe me, if someone outside IT3 goes L226+, you'll be one of the first to know.
      > >
      > > There have been a lot of L226 orders and thus far not a single positive result for anyone outside of IT3.
      > >
      > > L226 is a nice, tight SNP it appears.
      > >
      > > Rich
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ____________ _________ _________ __
      > > From: Irish III DNA <dna@>
      > > To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
      > > Cc: Mike Walsh <mwwdna@>
      > > Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 12:33:03 AM
      > > Subject: RE: [RL21Project] L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results
      > >
      > >  
      > > Thanks for the heads-up Rich.
      > > Three more Irish Type III are positive.
      > > 125995  NFZX7     Adams
      > >   65404 3Z3KJ      McGraw
      > >   40468 QWMMQ O'Brien
      > >  
      > > Are you getting ALL the negatives to Mike Walsh to include in his excellent spreadsheet?
      > >  
      > > Regards
      > > Dennis Wright
      > >  
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:RL21Project @yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Richard Stevens
      > > Sent: Wednesday, 23 December 2009 12:01 PM
      > > To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
      > > Subject: [RL21Project] L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results
      > >
      > >  
      > > Dear Members of the R-L21 Plus Project,
      > >
      > > If you are expecting results on L226, the R-L21 panel, or other orders off of FTDNA's Advanced Orders menu, check the bottom of your Haplotree page, because loads of results came in this evening. I've just been looking at them.
      > >
      > > I'll warn you up front: no big surprises where L226 is concerned. It continues to be exclusively an Irish Type III thing, unless there is something I've missed. But check for yourselves.
      > >
      > > Rich
      > >
      >


    • Irish III DNA
      Kirsten wrote:- I don t really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III.
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 23, 2009
        
        Kirsten wrote:-

        I don't really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that the logical next step would be to identify any men who match on most of the key Irish type III markers and try to get them to test. I would also look at the placement of Irish type III men on phylographic charts like the one that Vince Tilroe did in May and the one that Anatole Klyosov did more recently. The closest neighbors of Irish type III men would, ideally, be asked to test. It may be that Dennis Wright and/or others are already pursuing this approach.

        It is easy to find the Irish type III men on Vince's May chart:

        http://vince. tilroe.ca/ P312/L21_ 2009_05_18. png

        Does anybody know where the Irish type III are on the chart from Anatole? Mike posted it in the files section for this group. I think the linear diagram, which is listed second, is most useful.

        http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ RL21Project/ files/

        These charts probably do not include all of the best candidates for L226 testing, because they are limited to 67 marker haplotypes for men who have done L21 testing and received a positive result. Still it would make sense to use them to identify good candidates if that has not already been done.

         ******************************************************************************************
        On Vince's chart there are a couple in his bracket that are not Irish Type III, N40691/6AFTT and N10770/PDTGM so his bracket was a little too broad.
        In Anatole's chart, Irish Type III are down 63 places starting at ft58280 and going to ys7NXCX.
        If I understand your thinking, we should get those closest to Irish Type III, like ft46334 or ft40758 to test.
         
        Regards
         
        Dennis Wright
      • Richard Stevens
        Since establishing a boundary is what was first mentioned as the reason for tracking the negatives, it would make sense, now that we know that by far and
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 23, 2009
          Since "establishing a boundary" is what was first mentioned as the reason for tracking the negatives, it would make sense, now that we know that by far and away most men are L226-, to test those whose haplotypes come closest to IT3 but don't quite fit. Then you would see how far out the neighborhood extends.
           
          My guess is not far, since IT3 is pretty distinctive.
           
          (I'm just arguing, guys. It's fun. I hope I'm not offending anyone.)
          Rich

          From: Irish III DNA <dna@...>
          To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 7:40:08 PM
          Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

           

          

          Kirsten wrote:-

          I don't really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that the logical next step would be to identify any men who match on most of the key Irish type III markers and try to get them to test. I would also look at the placement of Irish type III men on phylographic charts like the one that Vince Tilroe did in May and the one that Anatole Klyosov did more recently. The closest neighbors of Irish type III men would, ideally, be asked to test. It may be that Dennis Wright and/or others are already pursuing this approach.

          It is easy to find the Irish type III men on Vince's May chart:

          http://vince. tilroe.ca/ P312/L21_ 2009_05_18. png

          Does anybody know where the Irish type III are on the chart from Anatole? Mike posted it in the files section for this group. I think the linear diagram, which is listed second, is most useful.

          http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ RL21Project/ files/

          These charts probably do not include all of the best candidates for L226 testing, because they are limited to 67 marker haplotypes for men who have done L21 testing and received a positive result. Still it would make sense to use them to identify good candidates if that has not already been done.

           ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******
          On Vince's chart there are a couple in his bracket that are not Irish Type III, N40691/6AFTT and N10770/PDTGM so his bracket was a little too broad.
          In Anatole's chart, Irish Type III are down 63 places starting at ft58280 and going to ys7NXCX.
          If I understand your thinking, we should get those closest to Irish Type III, like ft46334 or ft40758 to test.
           
          Regards
           
          Dennis Wright

        • Irish III DNA
          In Anatole s chart, 46334 is closest to Irish Type III however when I look at his markers in the R-L21 Plus project he is DYS459=10,10 and DYS464=15,15,17,17.
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 23, 2009
            
            In Anatole's chart, 46334 is closest to Irish Type III however when I look at his markers in the R-L21 Plus project he is DYS459=10,10 and DYS464=15,15,17,17.  As Irish Type III is 459=8,9 and DYS464=13,13,15,17 I would rule him out right away.
             
            Does anyone know where I can view FT Kit # 40758 ?  It is the next closest according to Anatole.
             
            Dennis
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RL21Project@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richard Stevens
            Sent: Thursday, 24 December 2009 11:48 AM
            To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

             

            Since "establishing a boundary" is what was first mentioned as the reason for tracking the negatives, it would make sense, now that we know that by far and away most men are L226-, to test those whose haplotypes come closest to IT3 but don't quite fit. Then you would see how far out the neighborhood extends.
             
            My guess is not far, since IT3 is pretty distinctive.
             
            (I'm just arguing, guys. It's fun. I hope I'm not offending anyone.)
            Rich

            From: Irish III DNA <dna@irishtype3dna. org>
            To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
            Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 7:40:08 PM
            Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

             

            

            Kirsten wrote:-

            I don't really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that the logical next step would be to identify any men who match on most of the key Irish type III markers and try to get them to test. I would also look at the placement of Irish type III men on phylographic charts like the one that Vince Tilroe did in May and the one that Anatole Klyosov did more recently. The closest neighbors of Irish type III men would, ideally, be asked to test. It may be that Dennis Wright and/or others are already pursuing this approach.

            It is easy to find the Irish type III men on Vince's May chart:

            http://vince. tilroe.ca/ P312/L21_ 2009_05_18. png

            Does anybody know where the Irish type III are on the chart from Anatole? Mike posted it in the files section for this group. I think the linear diagram, which is listed second, is most useful.

            http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ RL21Project/ files/

            These charts probably do not include all of the best candidates for L226 testing, because they are limited to 67 marker haplotypes for men who have done L21 testing and received a positive result. Still it would make sense to use them to identify good candidates if that has not already been done.

             ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******
            On Vince's chart there are a couple in his bracket that are not Irish Type III, N40691/6AFTT and N10770/PDTGM so his bracket was a little too broad.
            In Anatole's chart, Irish Type III are down 63 places starting at ft58280 and going to ys7NXCX.
            If I understand your thinking, we should get those closest to Irish Type III, like ft46334 or ft40758 to test.
             
            Regards
             
            Dennis Wright

          • Richard Stevens
            He s not in the R-L21 Plus Project. ________________________________ From: Irish III DNA To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed,
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 23, 2009
              He's not in the R-L21 Plus Project.


              From: Irish III DNA <dna@...>
              To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 8:03:20 PM
              Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

               

              

              In Anatole's chart, 46334 is closest to Irish Type III however when I look at his markers in the R-L21 Plus project he is DYS459=10,10 and DYS464=15,15, 17,17.  As Irish Type III is 459=8,9 and DYS464=13,13, 15,17 I would rule him out right away.
               
              Does anyone know where I can view FT Kit # 40758 ?  It is the next closest according to Anatole.
               
              Dennis
               
              -----Original Message-----
              From: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:RL21Project @yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Richard Stevens
              Sent: Thursday, 24 December 2009 11:48 AM
              To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

               

              Since "establishing a boundary" is what was first mentioned as the reason for tracking the negatives, it would make sense, now that we know that by far and away most men are L226-, to test those whose haplotypes come closest to IT3 but don't quite fit. Then you would see how far out the neighborhood extends.
               
              My guess is not far, since IT3 is pretty distinctive.
               
              (I'm just arguing, guys. It's fun. I hope I'm not offending anyone.)
              Rich

              From: Irish III DNA <dna@irishtype3dna. org>
              To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 7:40:08 PM
              Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

               

              

              Kirsten wrote:-

              I don't really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that the logical next step would be to identify any men who match on most of the key Irish type III markers and try to get them to test. I would also look at the placement of Irish type III men on phylographic charts like the one that Vince Tilroe did in May and the one that Anatole Klyosov did more recently. The closest neighbors of Irish type III men would, ideally, be asked to test. It may be that Dennis Wright and/or others are already pursuing this approach.

              It is easy to find the Irish type III men on Vince's May chart:

              http://vince. tilroe.ca/ P312/L21_ 2009_05_18. png

              Does anybody know where the Irish type III are on the chart from Anatole? Mike posted it in the files section for this group. I think the linear diagram, which is listed second, is most useful.

              http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ RL21Project/ files/

              These charts probably do not include all of the best candidates for L226 testing, because they are limited to 67 marker haplotypes for men who have done L21 testing and received a positive result. Still it would make sense to use them to identify good candidates if that has not already been done.

               ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******
              On Vince's chart there are a couple in his bracket that are not Irish Type III, N40691/6AFTT and N10770/PDTGM so his bracket was a little too broad.
              In Anatole's chart, Irish Type III are down 63 places starting at ft58280 and going to ys7NXCX.
              If I understand your thinking, we should get those closest to Irish Type III, like ft46334 or ft40758 to test.
               
              Regards
               
              Dennis Wright


            • Richard Stevens
              Not in R-P312 and Subclades, either. ________________________________ From: Richard Stevens To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed,
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 23, 2009
                Not in R-P312 and Subclades, either.


                From: Richard Stevens <turdinsky@...>
                To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 8:24:16 PM
                Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                 

                He's not in the R-L21 Plus Project.


                From: Irish III DNA <dna@irishtype3dna. org>
                To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 8:03:20 PM
                Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                 

                

                In Anatole's chart, 46334 is closest to Irish Type III however when I look at his markers in the R-L21 Plus project he is DYS459=10,10 and DYS464=15,15, 17,17.  As Irish Type III is 459=8,9 and DYS464=13,13, 15,17 I would rule him out right away.
                 
                Does anyone know where I can view FT Kit # 40758 ?  It is the next closest according to Anatole.
                 
                Dennis
                 
                -----Original Message-----
                From: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:RL21Project @yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Richard Stevens
                Sent: Thursday, 24 December 2009 11:48 AM
                To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                 

                Since "establishing a boundary" is what was first mentioned as the reason for tracking the negatives, it would make sense, now that we know that by far and away most men are L226-, to test those whose haplotypes come closest to IT3 but don't quite fit. Then you would see how far out the neighborhood extends.
                 
                My guess is not far, since IT3 is pretty distinctive.
                 
                (I'm just arguing, guys. It's fun. I hope I'm not offending anyone.)
                Rich

                From: Irish III DNA <dna@irishtype3dna. org>
                To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 7:40:08 PM
                Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                 

                

                Kirsten wrote:-

                I don't really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that the logical next step would be to identify any men who match on most of the key Irish type III markers and try to get them to test. I would also look at the placement of Irish type III men on phylographic charts like the one that Vince Tilroe did in May and the one that Anatole Klyosov did more recently. The closest neighbors of Irish type III men would, ideally, be asked to test. It may be that Dennis Wright and/or others are already pursuing this approach.

                It is easy to find the Irish type III men on Vince's May chart:

                http://vince. tilroe.ca/ P312/L21_ 2009_05_18. png

                Does anybody know where the Irish type III are on the chart from Anatole? Mike posted it in the files section for this group. I think the linear diagram, which is listed second, is most useful.

                http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ RL21Project/ files/

                These charts probably do not include all of the best candidates for L226 testing, because they are limited to 67 marker haplotypes for men who have done L21 testing and received a positive result. Still it would make sense to use them to identify good candidates if that has not already been done.

                 ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******
                On Vince's chart there are a couple in his bracket that are not Irish Type III, N40691/6AFTT and N10770/PDTGM so his bracket was a little too broad.
                In Anatole's chart, Irish Type III are down 63 places starting at ft58280 and going to ys7NXCX.
                If I understand your thinking, we should get those closest to Irish Type III, like ft46334 or ft40758 to test.
                 
                Regards
                 
                Dennis Wright



              • dnalister@comcast.net
                You understand. The ones that you say are not Irish type III, N40691 and N10770 are good candidates for testing if they have not been tested already, and from
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 23, 2009
                  You understand. The ones that you say are not Irish type III, N40691 and N10770 are good candidates for testing if they have not been tested already, and from looking at Anatole's chart, I can see that 46334 and 20758 are even better bets. Has ysearch 7NXCX already been tested?

                  I recognized the kit number of 2224 because he happens to be in the 464xccgg project, and I wrote to him about testing. If Anatole's chart is right about the relationships of these men, 2224 is more distantly related to Irish type III men than 46334 and 20758, but more closely related than N10770. I can't find N40691 on Anatole's chart.

                  Kirsten

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Irish III DNA" <dna@...>
                  To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 7:40:08 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                  Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                   

                  

                  Kirsten wrote:-

                  I don't really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that the logical next step would be to identify any men who match on most of the key Irish type III markers and try to get them to test. I would also look at the placement of Irish type III men on phylographic charts like the one that Vince Tilroe did in May and the one that Anatole Klyosov did more recently. The closest neighbors of Irish type III men would, ideally, be asked to test. It may be that Dennis Wright and/or others are already pursuing this approach.

                  It is easy to find the Irish type III men on Vince's May chart:

                  http://vince.tilroe.ca/P312/L21_2009_05_18.png

                  Does anybody know where the Irish type III are on the chart from Anatole? Mike posted it in the files section for this group. I think the linear diagram, which is listed second, is most useful.

                  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/

                  These charts probably do not include all of the best candidates for L226 testing, because they are limited to 67 marker haplotypes for men who have done L21 testing and received a positive result. Still it would make sense to use them to identify good candidates if that has not already been done.

                   ******************************************************************************************
                  On Vince's chart there are a couple in his bracket that are not Irish Type III, N40691/6AFTT and N10770/PDTGM so his bracket was a little too broad.
                  In Anatole's chart, Irish Type III are down 63 places starting at ft58280 and going to ys7NXCX.
                  If I understand your thinking, we should get those closest to Irish Type III, like ft46334 or ft40758 to test.
                   
                  Regards
                   
                  Dennis Wright

                • dnalister@comcast.net
                  If the chart has 46334 closer than anybody else to the Irish type III guys, I really think he should be tested for L226. We don t know the sequence of
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 23, 2009
                    If the chart has 46334 closer than anybody else to the Irish type III guys, I really think he should be tested for L226. We don't know the sequence of mutations leading to Irish type III or to his specific haplotype. Maybe there was something we don't understand going on with DYS459 for the line leading to Irish type III and to 46334. We just don't know about all of these things, but the charts are pretty good for figuring out relationships a lot of the time.

                    To me it doesn't make sense to ask people with all sorts of haplotypes that are plotted all over those charts to test and then not ask the ones who are closest to the group where L226 is found to test.

                    Kirsten

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Irish III DNA" <dna@...>
                    To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:03:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                    Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                     

                    

                    In Anatole's chart, 46334 is closest to Irish Type III however when I look at his markers in the R-L21 Plus project he is DYS459=10,10 and DYS464=15,15,17,17.  As Irish Type III is 459=8,9 and DYS464=13,13,15,17 I would rule him out right away.
                     
                    Does anyone know where I can view FT Kit # 40758 ?  It is the next closest according to Anatole.
                     
                    Dennis
                     
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RL21Project@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richard Stevens
                    Sent: Thursday, 24 December 2009 11:48 AM
                    To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                     

                    Since "establishing a boundary" is what was first mentioned as the reason for tracking the negatives, it would make sense, now that we know that by far and away most men are L226-, to test those whose haplotypes come closest to IT3 but don't quite fit. Then you would see how far out the neighborhood extends.
                     
                    My guess is not far, since IT3 is pretty distinctive.
                     
                    (I'm just arguing, guys. It's fun. I hope I'm not offending anyone.)
                    Rich

                    From: Irish III DNA <dna@...>
                    To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 7:40:08 PM
                    Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                     

                    

                    Kirsten wrote:-

                    I don't really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that the logical next step would be to identify any men who match on most of the key Irish type III markers and try to get them to test. I would also look at the placement of Irish type III men on phylographic charts like the one that Vince Tilroe did in May and the one that Anatole Klyosov did more recently. The closest neighbors of Irish type III men would, ideally, be asked to test. It may be that Dennis Wright and/or others are already pursuing this approach.

                    It is easy to find the Irish type III men on Vince's May chart:

                    http://vince. tilroe.ca/ P312/L21_ 2009_05_18. png

                    Does anybody know where the Irish type III are on the chart from Anatole? Mike posted it in the files section for this group. I think the linear diagram, which is listed second, is most useful.

                    http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ RL21Project/ files/

                    These charts probably do not include all of the best candidates for L226 testing, because they are limited to 67 marker haplotypes for men who have done L21 testing and received a positive result. Still it would make sense to use them to identify good candidates if that has not already been done.

                     ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******
                    On Vince's chart there are a couple in his bracket that are not Irish Type III, N40691/6AFTT and N10770/PDTGM so his bracket was a little too broad.
                    In Anatole's chart, Irish Type III are down 63 places starting at ft58280 and going to ys7NXCX.
                    If I understand your thinking, we should get those closest to Irish Type III, like ft46334 or ft40758 to test.
                     
                    Regards
                     
                    Dennis Wright

                  • Richard Stevens
                    What kind of chart was that again? Fluxus or something? Because 46334 s haplotype doesn t look close to IT3 to me. The problem with those kinds of programs, it
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 23, 2009
                      What kind of chart was that again? Fluxus or something? Because 46334's haplotype doesn't look close to IT3 to me.
                       
                      The problem with those kinds of programs, it seems to me, is that they work with what they have and put people together who are only "close" in a relative sense, compared to everyone else among the data being used to generate the chart. They were all the rage when I first got into this hobby. I've been in them and grouped next to people who weren't really close to me, some of whom later turned out to be P312- U106-.
                       
                      I would only advise 46334 to test for L226 if he has money to burn or if someone else is picking up the tab. He's in the Spain category on the project's Y-DNA Results page.
                      Rich

                      From: "dnalister@..." <dnalister@...>
                      To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 8:37:48 PM
                      Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                       

                      If the chart has 46334 closer than anybody else to the Irish type III guys, I really think he should be tested for L226. We don't know the sequence of mutations leading to Irish type III or to his specific haplotype. Maybe there was something we don't understand going on with DYS459 for the line leading to Irish type III and to 46334. We just don't know about all of these things, but the charts are pretty good for figuring out relationships a lot of the time.

                      To me it doesn't make sense to ask people with all sorts of haplotypes that are plotted all over those charts to test and then not ask the ones who are closest to the group where L226 is found to test.

                      Kirsten

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Irish III DNA" <dna@irishtype3dna. org>
                      To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:03:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                      Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                       

                      

                      In Anatole's chart, 46334 is closest to Irish Type III however when I look at his markers in the R-L21 Plus project he is DYS459=10,10 and DYS464=15,15, 17,17.  As Irish Type III is 459=8,9 and DYS464=13,13, 15,17 I would rule him out right away.
                       
                      Does anyone know where I can view FT Kit # 40758 ?  It is the next closest according to Anatole.
                       
                      Dennis
                       
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:RL21Project @yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Richard Stevens
                      Sent: Thursday, 24 December 2009 11:48 AM
                      To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                       

                      Since "establishing a boundary" is what was first mentioned as the reason for tracking the negatives, it would make sense, now that we know that by far and away most men are L226-, to test those whose haplotypes come closest to IT3 but don't quite fit. Then you would see how far out the neighborhood extends.
                       
                      My guess is not far, since IT3 is pretty distinctive.
                       
                      (I'm just arguing, guys. It's fun. I hope I'm not offending anyone.)
                      Rich

                      From: Irish III DNA <dna@irishtype3dna. org>
                      To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                      Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 7:40:08 PM
                      Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                       

                      

                      Kirsten wrote:-

                      I don't really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that the logical next step would be to identify any men who match on most of the key Irish type III markers and try to get them to test. I would also look at the placement of Irish type III men on phylographic charts like the one that Vince Tilroe did in May and the one that Anatole Klyosov did more recently. The closest neighbors of Irish type III men would, ideally, be asked to test. It may be that Dennis Wright and/or others are already pursuing this approach.

                      It is easy to find the Irish type III men on Vince's May chart:

                      http://vince. tilroe.ca/ P312/L21_ 2009_05_18. png

                      Does anybody know where the Irish type III are on the chart from Anatole? Mike posted it in the files section for this group. I think the linear diagram, which is listed second, is most useful.

                      http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ RL21Project/ files/

                      These charts probably do not include all of the best candidates for L226 testing, because they are limited to 67 marker haplotypes for men who have done L21 testing and received a positive result. Still it would make sense to use them to identify good candidates if that has not already been done.

                       ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******
                      On Vince's chart there are a couple in his bracket that are not Irish Type III, N40691/6AFTT and N10770/PDTGM so his bracket was a little too broad.
                      In Anatole's chart, Irish Type III are down 63 places starting at ft58280 and going to ys7NXCX.
                      If I understand your thinking, we should get those closest to Irish Type III, like ft46334 or ft40758 to test.
                       
                      Regards
                       
                      Dennis Wright


                    • Richard Stevens
                      Of those you mentioned, N10770 is the only one who has been tested for L226, and he is L226-. A few minutes ago I counted 91 L226 test results thus far, but I
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 23, 2009
                        Of those you mentioned, N10770 is the only one who has been tested for L226, and he is L226-.
                         
                        A few minutes ago I counted 91 L226 test results thus far, but I could have miscounted, because counting from the Received Lab Results page is not that easy. Anyway, I wouldn't be off by more than a couple if I did miscount.
                        Rich

                        From: "dnalister@..." <dnalister@...>
                        To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 8:26:41 PM
                        Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                         

                        You understand. The ones that you say are not Irish type III, N40691 and N10770 are good candidates for testing if they have not been tested already, and from looking at Anatole's chart, I can see that 46334 and 20758 are even better bets. Has ysearch 7NXCX already been tested?

                        I recognized the kit number of 2224 because he happens to be in the 464xccgg project, and I wrote to him about testing. If Anatole's chart is right about the relationships of these men, 2224 is more distantly related to Irish type III men than 46334 and 20758, but more closely related than N10770. I can't find N40691 on Anatole's chart.

                        Kirsten

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Irish III DNA" <dna@irishtype3dna. org>
                        To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 7:40:08 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                        Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                         

                        

                        Kirsten wrote:-

                        I don't really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that the logical next step would be to identify any men who match on most of the key Irish type III markers and try to get them to test. I would also look at the placement of Irish type III men on phylographic charts like the one that Vince Tilroe did in May and the one that Anatole Klyosov did more recently. The closest neighbors of Irish type III men would, ideally, be asked to test. It may be that Dennis Wright and/or others are already pursuing this approach.

                        It is easy to find the Irish type III men on Vince's May chart:

                        http://vince. tilroe.ca/ P312/L21_ 2009_05_18. png

                        Does anybody know where the Irish type III are on the chart from Anatole? Mike posted it in the files section for this group. I think the linear diagram, which is listed second, is most useful.

                        http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ RL21Project/ files/

                        These charts probably do not include all of the best candidates for L226 testing, because they are limited to 67 marker haplotypes for men who have done L21 testing and received a positive result. Still it would make sense to use them to identify good candidates if that has not already been done.

                         ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******
                        On Vince's chart there are a couple in his bracket that are not Irish Type III, N40691/6AFTT and N10770/PDTGM so his bracket was a little too broad.
                        In Anatole's chart, Irish Type III are down 63 places starting at ft58280 and going to ys7NXCX.
                        If I understand your thinking, we should get those closest to Irish Type III, like ft46334 or ft40758 to test.
                         
                        Regards
                         
                        Dennis Wright


                      • dnalister@comcast.net
                        You are absolutely right about those charts putting people who are relatively close together, even when they are not closely related. Of course when it comes
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 23, 2009
                          You are absolutely right about those charts putting people who are relatively close together, even when they are not closely related. Of course when it comes to deep ancestry, we are talking about connecting people who are distantly related. I think that the testing for L226 has gone in a sort of reverse direction. Instead of encouraging R-L21 men in general to test, it would have been best to start with some of these men that I mentioned, not letting the impressions gained by looking at one haplotype vs. one modal haplotype at a time get the better of us. Now if there are also some men who match better on the Irish type III key markers, I would also include them in the list of high priority testers.

                          If that is not done, they we will not know whether L226 is Irish type III specific or not, even if members of all of the publicly identified clusters are tested.

                          Remember that L159 was looking like it was confined to the Leinster cluster, and did not even include every branch of it, but then a couple of L159+ haplotypes showed up that don't match well at all. Knowing that L159 is a SNP that has already been found to have occurred at least twice, we might be tempted to speculate that the non-matching men are the result of yet another mutation, but we definitely shouldn't be concluding that without more testing.

                          When L159 was found, Thomas Krahn advised me to encourage testing of men who are very close to the man in whom it was discovered, and to continue with testing of more and more distantly related men so long as we were getting positive test results. I probably should have done a better job of passing this advice on to others researching WTY SNPs.

                          I think there is a middle ground between taking the phylogenetic charts as ultimate authorities and dismissing them. They are great for generating hypotheses about who is most closely related to whom. There is also a balance to strike between encouraging broad testing of SNPs and confining testing to groups of men already identified as likely cousins through the analysis of STR results. What are SNPs for, anyway? If L226 can unite Irish type III haplotypes with some others, then I think it's telling us more than if it only confirms what was already suspected.

                          Kirsten

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Richard Stevens" <turdinsky@...>
                          To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:48:10 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                          Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                           

                          What kind of chart was that again? Fluxus or something? Because 46334's haplotype doesn't look close to IT3 to me.
                           
                          The problem with those kinds of programs, it seems to me, is that they work with what they have and put people together who are only "close" in a relative sense, compared to everyone else among the data being used to generate the chart. They were all the rage when I first got into this hobby. I've been in them and grouped next to people who weren't really close to me, some of whom later turned out to be P312- U106-.
                           
                          I would only advise 46334 to test for L226 if he has money to burn or if someone else is picking up the tab. He's in the Spain category on the project's Y-DNA Results page.
                          Rich

                          From: "dnalister@..." <dnalister@...>
                          To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 8:37:48 PM
                          Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                           

                          If the chart has 46334 closer than anybody else to the Irish type III guys, I really think he should be tested for L226. We don't know the sequence of mutations leading to Irish type III or to his specific haplotype. Maybe there was something we don't understand going on with DYS459 for the line leading to Irish type III and to 46334. We just don't know about all of these things, but the charts are pretty good for figuring out relationships a lot of the time.

                          To me it doesn't make sense to ask people with all sorts of haplotypes that are plotted all over those charts to test and then not ask the ones who are closest to the group where L226 is found to test.

                          Kirsten

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Irish III DNA" <dna@irishtype3dna. org>
                          To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                          Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:03:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                          Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                           

                          

                          In Anatole's chart, 46334 is closest to Irish Type III however when I look at his markers in the R-L21 Plus project he is DYS459=10,10 and DYS464=15,15, 17,17.  As Irish Type III is 459=8,9 and DYS464=13,13, 15,17 I would rule him out right away.
                           
                          Does anyone know where I can view FT Kit # 40758 ?  It is the next closest according to Anatole.
                           
                          Dennis
                           
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:RL21Project @yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Richard Stevens
                          Sent: Thursday, 24 December 2009 11:48 AM
                          To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                          Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                           

                          Since "establishing a boundary" is what was first mentioned as the reason for tracking the negatives, it would make sense, now that we know that by far and away most men are L226-, to test those whose haplotypes come closest to IT3 but don't quite fit. Then you would see how far out the neighborhood extends.
                           
                          My guess is not far, since IT3 is pretty distinctive.
                           
                          (I'm just arguing, guys. It's fun. I hope I'm not offending anyone.)
                          Rich

                          From: Irish III DNA <dna@irishtype3dna. org>
                          To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                          Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 7:40:08 PM
                          Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                           

                          

                          Kirsten wrote:-

                          I don't really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that the logical next step would be to identify any men who match on most of the key Irish type III markers and try to get them to test. I would also look at the placement of Irish type III men on phylographic charts like the one that Vince Tilroe did in May and the one that Anatole Klyosov did more recently. The closest neighbors of Irish type III men would, ideally, be asked to test. It may be that Dennis Wright and/or others are already pursuing this approach.

                          It is easy to find the Irish type III men on Vince's May chart:

                          http://vince. tilroe.ca/ P312/L21_ 2009_05_18. png

                          Does anybody know where the Irish type III are on the chart from Anatole? Mike posted it in the files section for this group. I think the linear diagram, which is listed second, is most useful.

                          http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ RL21Project/ files/

                          These charts probably do not include all of the best candidates for L226 testing, because they are limited to 67 marker haplotypes for men who have done L21 testing and received a positive result. Still it would make sense to use them to identify good candidates if that has not already been done.

                           ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******
                          On Vince's chart there are a couple in his bracket that are not Irish Type III, N40691/6AFTT and N10770/PDTGM so his bracket was a little too broad.
                          In Anatole's chart, Irish Type III are down 63 places starting at ft58280 and going to ys7NXCX.
                          If I understand your thinking, we should get those closest to Irish Type III, like ft46334 or ft40758 to test.
                           
                          Regards
                           
                          Dennis Wright


                        • dnalister@comcast.net
                          You were looking for the wrong number. It s 20758, not 40758. Kirsten ... From: Irish III DNA To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 23, 2009
                            You were looking for the wrong number. It's 20758, not 40758.

                            Kirsten

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Irish III DNA" <dna@...>
                            To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:03:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                            Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                             

                            

                            In Anatole's chart, 46334 is closest to Irish Type III however when I look at his markers in the R-L21 Plus project he is DYS459=10,10 and DYS464=15,15,17,17.  As Irish Type III is 459=8,9 and DYS464=13,13,15,17 I would rule him out right away.
                             
                            Does anyone know where I can view FT Kit # 40758 ?  It is the next closest according to Anatole.
                             
                            Dennis
                             
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RL21Project@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richard Stevens
                            Sent: Thursday, 24 December 2009 11:48 AM
                            To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                             

                            Since "establishing a boundary" is what was first mentioned as the reason for tracking the negatives, it would make sense, now that we know that by far and away most men are L226-, to test those whose haplotypes come closest to IT3 but don't quite fit. Then you would see how far out the neighborhood extends.
                             
                            My guess is not far, since IT3 is pretty distinctive.
                             
                            (I'm just arguing, guys. It's fun. I hope I'm not offending anyone.)
                            Rich

                            From: Irish III DNA <dna@...>
                            To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 7:40:08 PM
                            Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                             

                            

                            Kirsten wrote:-

                            I don't really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that the logical next step would be to identify any men who match on most of the key Irish type III markers and try to get them to test. I would also look at the placement of Irish type III men on phylographic charts like the one that Vince Tilroe did in May and the one that Anatole Klyosov did more recently. The closest neighbors of Irish type III men would, ideally, be asked to test. It may be that Dennis Wright and/or others are already pursuing this approach.

                            It is easy to find the Irish type III men on Vince's May chart:

                            http://vince. tilroe.ca/ P312/L21_ 2009_05_18. png

                            Does anybody know where the Irish type III are on the chart from Anatole? Mike posted it in the files section for this group. I think the linear diagram, which is listed second, is most useful.

                            http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ RL21Project/ files/

                            These charts probably do not include all of the best candidates for L226 testing, because they are limited to 67 marker haplotypes for men who have done L21 testing and received a positive result. Still it would make sense to use them to identify good candidates if that has not already been done.

                             ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******
                            On Vince's chart there are a couple in his bracket that are not Irish Type III, N40691/6AFTT and N10770/PDTGM so his bracket was a little too broad.
                            In Anatole's chart, Irish Type III are down 63 places starting at ft58280 and going to ys7NXCX.
                            If I understand your thinking, we should get those closest to Irish Type III, like ft46334 or ft40758 to test.
                             
                            Regards
                             
                            Dennis Wright

                          • dnalister@comcast.net
                            Thanks, I think I need to correct my post when it comes to 2224. Anatole s chart says that he is about as closely related as N10770, who tested negative, but I
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 23, 2009
                              Thanks, I think I need to correct my post when it comes to 2224. Anatole's chart says that he is about as closely related as N10770, who tested negative, but I take the position on the same branch but closer to the type III men as a sign of doubt. If you look at Vince Tilroe's chart, it seems to show some ambiguity when it comes to the sequence of mutations leading to the 2224 haplotype and who shares the most recent ancestry with 2224.

                              It's good that we do at least have results for N10770. I see that 20758 has the distinctive type III DYS459a and DYS459b results, but not the distinctive DYS464 or DYS450 results. I'd still like to see at least some of 20758, 46334, N40691, and 2224 tested. If there are any men who match on at least some of the key markers for Irish type III, but not all, they would also be really good candidates for testing. Maybe there are some interesting 25 or 37 marker haplotypes out there. I guess the Irish Heritage DNA project would be a good place to look for them.

                              Kirsten

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Richard Stevens" <turdinsky@...>
                              To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 9:00:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                              Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                               

                              Of those you mentioned, N10770 is the only one who has been tested for L226, and he is L226-.
                               
                              A few minutes ago I counted 91 L226 test results thus far, but I could have miscounted, because counting from the Received Lab Results page is not that easy. Anyway, I wouldn't be off by more than a couple if I did miscount.
                              Rich

                              From: "dnalister@..." <dnalister@...>
                              To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 8:26:41 PM
                              Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                               

                              You understand. The ones that you say are not Irish type III, N40691 and N10770 are good candidates for testing if they have not been tested already, and from looking at Anatole's chart, I can see that 46334 and 20758 are even better bets. Has ysearch 7NXCX already been tested?

                              I recognized the kit number of 2224 because he happens to be in the 464xccgg project, and I wrote to him about testing. If Anatole's chart is right about the relationships of these men, 2224 is more distantly related to Irish type III men than 46334 and 20758, but more closely related than N10770. I can't find N40691 on Anatole's chart.

                              Kirsten

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Irish III DNA" <dna@irishtype3dna. org>
                              To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 7:40:08 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                              Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                               

                              

                              Kirsten wrote:-

                              I don't really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that the logical next step would be to identify any men who match on most of the key Irish type III markers and try to get them to test. I would also look at the placement of Irish type III men on phylographic charts like the one that Vince Tilroe did in May and the one that Anatole Klyosov did more recently. The closest neighbors of Irish type III men would, ideally, be asked to test. It may be that Dennis Wright and/or others are already pursuing this approach.

                              It is easy to find the Irish type III men on Vince's May chart:

                              http://vince. tilroe.ca/ P312/L21_ 2009_05_18. png

                              Does anybody know where the Irish type III are on the chart from Anatole? Mike posted it in the files section for this group. I think the linear diagram, which is listed second, is most useful.

                              http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ RL21Project/ files/

                              These charts probably do not include all of the best candidates for L226 testing, because they are limited to 67 marker haplotypes for men who have done L21 testing and received a positive result. Still it would make sense to use them to identify good candidates if that has not already been done.

                               ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******
                              On Vince's chart there are a couple in his bracket that are not Irish Type III, N40691/6AFTT and N10770/PDTGM so his bracket was a little too broad.
                              In Anatole's chart, Irish Type III are down 63 places starting at ft58280 and going to ys7NXCX.
                              If I understand your thinking, we should get those closest to Irish Type III, like ft46334 or ft40758 to test.
                               
                              Regards
                               
                              Dennis Wright


                            • Richard Stevens
                              My guess is that L226 will be added to the Deep Clade-R in the not too distant future. Of course, I wonder how FTDNA will keep the cost of the Deep Clade-R
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 24, 2009
                                My guess is that L226 will be added to the Deep Clade-R in the not too distant future. Of course, I wonder how FTDNA will keep the cost of the Deep Clade-R down as more and more SNPs get added to it.
                                 
                                I guess if they hit the important R Tree nodes at the outset of testing, that would save time and money, but they probably already do that.
                                Rich

                                From: "dnalister@..." <dnalister@...>
                                To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 9:10:07 PM
                                Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                                 

                                You are absolutely right about those charts putting people who are relatively close together, even when they are not closely related. Of course when it comes to deep ancestry, we are talking about connecting people who are distantly related. I think that the testing for L226 has gone in a sort of reverse direction. Instead of encouraging R-L21 men in general to test, it would have been best to start with some of these men that I mentioned, not letting the impressions gained by looking at one haplotype vs. one modal haplotype at a time get the better of us. Now if there are also some men who match better on the Irish type III key markers, I would also include them in the list of high priority testers.

                                If that is not done, they we will not know whether L226 is Irish type III specific or not, even if members of all of the publicly identified clusters are tested.

                                Remember that L159 was looking like it was confined to the Leinster cluster, and did not even include every branch of it, but then a couple of L159+ haplotypes showed up that don't match well at all. Knowing that L159 is a SNP that has already been found to have occurred at least twice, we might be tempted to speculate that the non-matching men are the result of yet another mutation, but we definitely shouldn't be concluding that without more testing.

                                When L159 was found, Thomas Krahn advised me to encourage testing of men who are very close to the man in whom it was discovered, and to continue with testing of more and more distantly related men so long as we were getting positive test results. I probably should have done a better job of passing this advice on to others researching WTY SNPs.

                                I think there is a middle ground between taking the phylogenetic charts as ultimate authorities and dismissing them. They are great for generating hypotheses about who is most closely related to whom. There is also a balance to strike between encouraging broad testing of SNPs and confining testing to groups of men already identified as likely cousins through the analysis of STR results. What are SNPs for, anyway? If L226 can unite Irish type III haplotypes with some others, then I think it's telling us more than if it only confirms what was already suspected.

                                Kirsten

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Richard Stevens" <turdinsky@yahoo. com>
                                To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                                Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:48:10 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                                 

                                What kind of chart was that again? Fluxus or something? Because 46334's haplotype doesn't look close to IT3 to me.
                                 
                                The problem with those kinds of programs, it seems to me, is that they work with what they have and put people together who are only "close" in a relative sense, compared to everyone else among the data being used to generate the chart. They were all the rage when I first got into this hobby. I've been in them and grouped next to people who weren't really close to me, some of whom later turned out to be P312- U106-.
                                 
                                I would only advise 46334 to test for L226 if he has money to burn or if someone else is picking up the tab. He's in the Spain category on the project's Y-DNA Results page.
                                Rich

                                From: "dnalister@comcast. net" <dnalister@comcast. net>
                                To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                                Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 8:37:48 PM
                                Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                                 

                                If the chart has 46334 closer than anybody else to the Irish type III guys, I really think he should be tested for L226. We don't know the sequence of mutations leading to Irish type III or to his specific haplotype. Maybe there was something we don't understand going on with DYS459 for the line leading to Irish type III and to 46334. We just don't know about all of these things, but the charts are pretty good for figuring out relationships a lot of the time.

                                To me it doesn't make sense to ask people with all sorts of haplotypes that are plotted all over those charts to test and then not ask the ones who are closest to the group where L226 is found to test.

                                Kirsten

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Irish III DNA" <dna@irishtype3dna. org>
                                To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                                Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:03:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                                 

                                

                                In Anatole's chart, 46334 is closest to Irish Type III however when I look at his markers in the R-L21 Plus project he is DYS459=10,10 and DYS464=15,15, 17,17.  As Irish Type III is 459=8,9 and DYS464=13,13, 15,17 I would rule him out right away.
                                 
                                Does anyone know where I can view FT Kit # 40758 ?  It is the next closest according to Anatole.
                                 
                                Dennis
                                 
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:RL21Project @yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Richard Stevens
                                Sent: Thursday, 24 December 2009 11:48 AM
                                To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                                Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                                 

                                Since "establishing a boundary" is what was first mentioned as the reason for tracking the negatives, it would make sense, now that we know that by far and away most men are L226-, to test those whose haplotypes come closest to IT3 but don't quite fit. Then you would see how far out the neighborhood extends.
                                 
                                My guess is not far, since IT3 is pretty distinctive.
                                 
                                (I'm just arguing, guys. It's fun. I hope I'm not offending anyone.)
                                Rich

                                From: Irish III DNA <dna@irishtype3dna. org>
                                To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                                Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 7:40:08 PM
                                Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                                 

                                

                                Kirsten wrote:-

                                I don't really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that the logical next step would be to identify any men who match on most of the key Irish type III markers and try to get them to test. I would also look at the placement of Irish type III men on phylographic charts like the one that Vince Tilroe did in May and the one that Anatole Klyosov did more recently. The closest neighbors of Irish type III men would, ideally, be asked to test. It may be that Dennis Wright and/or others are already pursuing this approach.

                                It is easy to find the Irish type III men on Vince's May chart:

                                http://vince. tilroe.ca/ P312/L21_ 2009_05_18. png

                                Does anybody know where the Irish type III are on the chart from Anatole? Mike posted it in the files section for this group. I think the linear diagram, which is listed second, is most useful.

                                http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ RL21Project/ files/

                                These charts probably do not include all of the best candidates for L226 testing, because they are limited to 67 marker haplotypes for men who have done L21 testing and received a positive result. Still it would make sense to use them to identify good candidates if that has not already been done.

                                 ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******
                                On Vince's chart there are a couple in his bracket that are not Irish Type III, N40691/6AFTT and N10770/PDTGM so his bracket was a little too broad.
                                In Anatole's chart, Irish Type III are down 63 places starting at ft58280 and going to ys7NXCX.
                                If I understand your thinking, we should get those closest to Irish Type III, like ft46334 or ft40758 to test.
                                 
                                Regards
                                 
                                Dennis Wright



                              • dnalister@comcast.net
                                The correct kit number is 20758, and he is in the R-L21 Plus project. Kirsten ... From: Richard Stevens To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                                Message 15 of 15 , Dec 26, 2009
                                  The correct kit number is 20758, and he is in the R-L21 Plus project.

                                  Kirsten

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Richard Stevens" <turdinsky@...>
                                  To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:24:16 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                  Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                                   

                                  He's not in the R-L21 Plus Project.


                                  From: Irish III DNA <dna@...>
                                  To: RL21Project@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 8:03:20 PM
                                  Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                                   

                                  

                                  In Anatole's chart, 46334 is closest to Irish Type III however when I look at his markers in the R-L21 Plus project he is DYS459=10,10 and DYS464=15,15, 17,17.  As Irish Type III is 459=8,9 and DYS464=13,13, 15,17 I would rule him out right away.
                                   
                                  Does anyone know where I can view FT Kit # 40758 ?  It is the next closest according to Anatole.
                                   
                                  Dennis
                                   
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:RL21Project @yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Richard Stevens
                                  Sent: Thursday, 24 December 2009 11:48 AM
                                  To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Subject: Re: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                                   

                                  Since "establishing a boundary" is what was first mentioned as the reason for tracking the negatives, it would make sense, now that we know that by far and away most men are L226-, to test those whose haplotypes come closest to IT3 but don't quite fit. Then you would see how far out the neighborhood extends.
                                   
                                  My guess is not far, since IT3 is pretty distinctive.
                                   
                                  (I'm just arguing, guys. It's fun. I hope I'm not offending anyone.)
                                  Rich

                                  From: Irish III DNA <dna@irishtype3dna. org>
                                  To: RL21Project@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 7:40:08 PM
                                  Subject: RE: any borderline Irish type III haplotypes out there? Re: [RL21Project] Re: L226 and Other Advanced Menu Results

                                   

                                  

                                  Kirsten wrote:-

                                  I don't really know that much about Irish type III haplotypes and whether there are many haplotypes that appear to be borderline Irishtype III. I think that the logical next step would be to identify any men who match on most of the key Irish type III markers and try to get them to test. I would also look at the placement of Irish type III men on phylographic charts like the one that Vince Tilroe did in May and the one that Anatole Klyosov did more recently. The closest neighbors of Irish type III men would, ideally, be asked to test. It may be that Dennis Wright and/or others are already pursuing this approach.

                                  It is easy to find the Irish type III men on Vince's May chart:

                                  http://vince. tilroe.ca/ P312/L21_ 2009_05_18. png

                                  Does anybody know where the Irish type III are on the chart from Anatole? Mike posted it in the files section for this group. I think the linear diagram, which is listed second, is most useful.

                                  http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ RL21Project/ files/

                                  These charts probably do not include all of the best candidates for L226 testing, because they are limited to 67 marker haplotypes for men who have done L21 testing and received a positive result. Still it would make sense to use them to identify good candidates if that has not already been done.

                                   ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******
                                  On Vince's chart there are a couple in his bracket that are not Irish Type III, N40691/6AFTT and N10770/PDTGM so his bracket was a little too broad.
                                  In Anatole's chart, Irish Type III are down 63 places starting at ft58280 and going to ys7NXCX.
                                  If I understand your thinking, we should get those closest to Irish Type III, like ft46334 or ft40758 to test.
                                   
                                  Regards
                                   
                                  Dennis Wright


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