Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: L21 Possibly L1066 Mac David Burkes

Expand Messages
  • aidanmarcellus
    Interesting discussion, I have a question and the answer may be a little obvious but I don t know it off-hand: If the Burkes are generally M222+ and descendent
    Message 1 of 41 , Aug 1, 2013
      Interesting discussion, I have a question and the answer may be a little obvious but I don't know it off-hand: If the Burkes are generally M222+ and descendent from Normans that arrived in force in Ireland about 1100AD, how does, or does this at all, tie in with Niall's M222+ group? Is it an example of at least two waves of M222+ coming to Ireland. In other words are the M222+ Burkes descendent from Niall or the Normans?

      --- In R1b-L21-Project@yahoogroups.com, "rory.cain1" <rory.cain1@...> wrote:
      >
      > Bill
      >
      > I have no DNA information on the Curleys, only what has been written. This could be pseudo-history written to suit the ruling families immediately prior to the Anglo-Norman invasion. The layer of pseudo-history covered up the existence of my DF21 group which includes the O'Beirne Roscommon cluster, in the vicinity of your Curleys I expect. I like to see DNA confirmation before accepting much of what passes for history and/or genealogy in Ireland.
      >
      > That said, the surnames Curley and Turley derive from Mac Thoirdealbaigh (Mac Turlough). The townlands of Ballymacurly South & Ballymacurley North in Ballymoe Barony, Co Roscommon, may indicate an early homeland of the clan.
      >
      > The ruling family of this area, the O'Conor kings of Connaught now represented by the O'Conor Don, appear to be M222+ which conforms with the Irish genealogies. Then again the Irish genealogies would also make the O Cathains to be M222+ but instead we are DF21+, so we must take every clan on a case by case basis. With the Curleys, i do not know the DN record well enough.
      >
      > I have though discovered a previosuly unknown Kane (etc) sept, quite possibly once O Cathain like my own sept, who are Z253+ and possibly L1066+. They tend to cluster around Breifne, a little northeast of your Curley sept. I suspect my O Cathain sept in south Galway and this other Kane (etc) sept in Breifne to be marcher lords from non-M222 clans who served the kings of Connaught. This could, with further investigation, be the scenario for your Curleys.
      >
      > --- In R1b-L21-Project@yahoogroups.com, "rory.cain1" <rory.cain1@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Bill, my pleasure to assist in any way. I don't mean to confuse, using the name O Cathain of Cenel Sedna. Possibly more confusing to say Cain, because there are Cains descended from the O Cathain chiefs of Ciannachta Glinne-Geimhein (Dungiven, Co Derry) who naturally M222+, and several smaller O Cathain septs from Clare, Connemara and Breifne.
      > >
      > > The de Burgh/ Burke sept being so powerful and numerous, bearers of the surname will present a variety of DNA types. If, as with their neighbours the O'Kellys of Ui Maine, one can identify the chief and DNA test him, we might be on firmer ground. I dug deeper re the last Burkes of Glinsk and learned that Sir John and Joseph Burke disowned their brother and he went to live in Lerhin Castle above Glennamaddy. He became a farmer and was despised as a "clod-hopper" by the Burke Baronets of Glinsk. This brother's family went to live in London. One returned to visit Glinsk in 1916 (after the last Baronet died 1909) but the title Baronet of Glinsk was not conferred on him. I do not know if anyone kept track of this family.
      > >
      > > The MacWalter Burkes descend from Walter, cousin of Sir David who was ancestor of the MacDavid/ McDavie Burkes. Of course all the Burkes claim descent from William "the Conqueror" de Burke whose ancestor married Harlotta, the mother of William the Conqueror, Duke of Normandy. That doesn't rule out the Burkes from being Celts who simply integrated with the Normans. Making everyone Norman tends to be an easy way out for some when they encounter a genealogical problem. Especially if that person wants to avoid admitting to being Celtic. I wouldn't pay much attention to the Norman theorists. Have faith in what your research points towards.
      > >
      > > Cheers
      > >
      > > Rory
      > >
      > > --- In R1b-L21-Project@yahoogroups.com, Bill Pictman <lost_without_me@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Rory,
      > > >
      > > > I just realized now (after internet searching), O Cathain chiefs of Cenel Sedna are the Cains. My how we go in circles sometimes. So maybe we're back to my branch while being named a MacDavie, possibly not genetically linked to the MacDavie/MacDavid Burkes. That would actually be preferred, that there is no genetic connection to the Burkes but that they took that Mac Davie name.
      > > >
      > > >  
      > > > Cheers,
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Bill
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ________________________________
      > > > From: rory.cain1 <rory.cain1@>
      > > > To: R1b-L21-Project@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:40 PM
      > > > Subject: [R1b-L21-Project] Re: L21 Possibly L1066 Mac David Burkes
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >  
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Bill, I have opted for a public post in case others can add some DNA background to the historical sketch. The de Burghs conquered Connaught, or at least parts of it, in a series of battles with individual native clans. One of the clans which then came under their sway, ca 1235, were the O Cathain chiefs of Cenel Sedna near Kinvarra. When the MacDavid Burkes moved north to Glinsk in 1307 a section of the O Cathains went with them as military muscle. The MacDavid Burkes consider themselves the senior branch, although hemmed in by their rivals the O Connor sept, and holding less land than the Burkes of Clanrickard and elsewhere.
      > > >
      > > > Sir Ulick Burke, Knight of Glinsk, became a Baronet in 1628 and is said to have erected the last castle built in Ireland, Glinsk Castle. Not that long afterwards Cromwell came to Ireland and the Burkes lost Glinsk for a while for having opposed Cromwell. They permanently lost nearby Dunamon castle. I assume this is the prohibition period you spoke of?
      > > >
      > > > Getting any MacDavid Burke Y-DNA is problematic as the family died out. At least the title did after the death of Sir Theobold Burke Bt in 1909.There was a claimant. He was mentioned in Martin Ward's History in Glinsk (2002). His claim did not succeed. Others may know more, hence my decision to make this thread public.
      > > >
      > > > --- In R1b-L21-Project@yahoogroups.com, Bill Pictman <lost_without_me@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Offline please, just email me directly and not the project, if anyone knowledgeable in Irish history can sort out the Burke/Clan Mac David relationship in somewhat plain English, that would be very helpful.I can't tell for certain if they were in fact Norman or maybe Celts that were a sept of the Norman Burkes. Of course they were married to the native Irish best I can tell but it's all pretty confusing to me especially with conflicting information on the internet. I'm now tracing a possible connection here but in the very early stages. The timing seems right for my family perhaps leaving for Scotland due to the banning of the Mac David surname and the forfeiture of the estates but it's all a confusing mess at this point in time.
      > > > >
      > > > > Any information that clarifies how the Mac David Burkes came to be and what happened to them after the banning of the surname and renouncing of "all things Irish" would be very interesting and helpful. Maybe a contingent of L1066 will turn out to be of Norman descent after all, even though it's a slight disappointment if correct.
      > > > >
      > > > >  
      > > > > Cheers,
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Bill
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ________________________________
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Joseph E Carroll
      I don t know enough of the details to answer that. I would hope that Gen2 would show that you are positive for something that can then guide you further. It
      Message 41 of 41 , Aug 5, 2013
        I don't know enough of the details to answer that. I would hope that Gen2 would show that you are positive for something that can then guide you further. It doesn't hit all the BIG ones, but enough of the ones below to show you where you are or aren't. Perhaps you can learn more by going to David Reynolds' site <http://daver.info/geno/results/> and clicking on various things to see what is displayed.
        ------ Joe

        On Aug 4, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Jane GDFR wrote:



        Thanks Joe!

        I agree. We're 'leaning' in the Geno 2.0 direction, maybe adding one individual z253? too. If we do this, do you know which of the BIG ones might still need further testing based on what Geno doesn't currently cover or equate to?
         
        Jane GDFR
        for Dougherty kit #248822


        From: Joseph E Carroll <jcarroll2@...>
        To: R1b-L21-Project@yahoogroups.com 
        Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2013 6:37 PM
        Subject: Re: [R1b-L21-Project] Re: L21 Possibly L1066 Mac David Burkes

        Jane, while you have tested a number of SNPs, you have missed some big ones: Z255, Z253, DF21, DF41, and others. My suggestion would be to go for Geno 2.0 because that tests for lots of SNPs and then David Reynolds can compare you with others. Far better than testing one SNP after another. Just my 2 cents, of course.

        ------ Joe
        PS: Do NOT try for CTS4466 - you will be negative.


        On Aug 3, 2013, at 6:15 PM, Susan Hedeen wrote:

        Dear Jane,
        I noticed by your snp list that you have tested extensively:
        DF13+, DF23-, L144-, L159.2-, L193-, L21+, L226-, L96-, M222-, M37-, P312+, P314.2-, P66-, U106-

        <trimmed>


      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.