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Re: [Pythagorean-L] Re: Intro

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  • mskitty
    Thanks for thinking I know something, but the truth is I operate continually on Heisenberg s Uncertainty Principle -- the more I see, the less I know. And
    Message 1 of 44 , Oct 4, 2009
      Thanks for thinking I know something, but the truth is I operate continually on Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle -- the more I see, the less I know. And that's the truth of the matter.

      Now I know you jest in asking who Sitchin is. Zecharia Sitchin is an actual Sumerianologist and I guess an archaeologist.  He can read the Sumerian language. I don't know why, but amazon dot com shows only 2 books of his.  The conspiracy theorist crowd and mainstream Science mostly seem to be "debunking" him, but this is neither here nor there as far as I am concerned. 

      Sitchen, like Fideler, proposes taking the Sumerian at the word when it comes to their creation myths.  He proposes the Annunaki -- an advanced race of extraterrestrials -- were ancient astronauts who's story was told in the Sumerian creation myths.

      Well, rather than bore the list with my non-expertise, here is a link for a brief overview about Sitchin and some of my other favorite thinkers, including David Hatcher Childress who wrote about advanced ancient technology, including electricity being used in ancient Egypt:


      To boggle your mind even more, while looking for a link for you I happened upon this article, a new one on me, something to consider I suppose:

      New Scientific Evidence that Jesus Christ was born in a UFO

      As you see, things get pretty wild and wooley out there when searching for the Truth!

      Yet, when I follow along what various authors have to say, there is an internal logic to it all.

      That was amusing that they wouldn't let you into seminary because your views were pure heresy lolll

      It was lovely what you wrote about the Virgin Mary being heiress to the crown of the great Egyptian goddess, Isis. Lovely imagery there. But a pagan who practices a Marion devotion? Interesting. I had come across the idea of having a Mary Garden altar kind of thing, where plants specific to Mary are planted around her statue. Nice concept. Do you know about this?  Here is a link that also gives the list of plants:


      As to crop circles, in this day and age of computer generated images, I am finding more and more I cannot tell what is real and what is made up.  I personally have never seen a crop circle, and until I do I cannot come to a decision about any of it. Plain and simple.

      I like to look at the tarot cards, and once I did a reading for myself that pictured exactly my situation at the time.  I have no sacred space where I can easily sit and try a reading, so I don't use them much. 


      --- On Sun, 10/4/09, Joe Flower <joeflower9937@...> wrote:

      From: Joe Flower <joeflower9937@...>
      Subject: Re: [Pythagorean-L] Re: Intro
      To: Pythagorean-L@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, October 4, 2009, 7:27 AM


      OOOOwweeeeee! !  Loved your post!
         I can't say I have anywhere near the knowledge you've gathered on pre-Hellenic cultures.  I usually leave myself at the mercy of people like you for info when relevant.  But it's OK -- I don't apologize for putting confidence and trust in others worth the respect -- my only regret comes in often not knowing the right questions to ask at the right time.

         I like your challenging me about taking Christianity at face value.  I'm my own enigma on that.  Yes, I do consciously choose to take CONTEMPORARY Christianity at face value, even though aware it's a mask.  But it's because, as a non-Christian, it doesn't have enough personal value for me to get at the real thing.  (Except as it affects me just because it's the dominant religion in the culture I live in and have to deal with.)  If I WERE a Christian, I'd be half out of my mind with anger over what the Church has done to it..
         Actually, I am a serious student of EARLY Christianity, as you seem to be as well.  I was raised as a Christian and was once serious enough about it to enroll in college as a "pre-theo" to prepare for graduate work in a seminary.  Eventually I was advised to forget that because my beliefs were pure heresy.  I turned to Humanistic Atheism by default but subsequently learned that my beliefs would have been just fine back in adolescence if only the Gnostic side of the early Christian struggle had prevailed.
         Anyway, my interest in early Christianity is largely stimulated by my Pagan practice of Marian devotion, which is even far more heretical than my Gnosticism was.  (I had turned to Neo-Paganism after failing to find spiritual satisfaction in Atheism.)  I accept the premise that the Virgin Mary ("Virgin" in the classical sense of self autonomy, as it is in Artemis and the other great virgin goddesses.) is heiress to the crown of the great Egyptian goddess, Isis.  I'm not interested in the tangent taken that claimed allegience to her son Jesus, whether he literally existed or not, that never got it right after Paul became the real god of Christianity through usurpation.
         ...well, I seriously digress.  Sorry.  I've gone far afield of Pythagoras and sacred geometry, which are subjects I love.  I also love the Qabalah and once wanted to write a book on "The Pythagorean Qabalah".
         ...Who is Sitchen?  I'm a real blank slate on ancient Summerian culture. You're the first to pique my interest.  And you know about the Babylonians too??
         ...Do you suppose the crop circles are geometries of communication from the Earth, perhaps to extraterrestial intelligence?
         ...I like your allegience to Fideler's book..  I think I have thousands of books and his is amongst those in a small pile that I would run back into a burning building to try and save.
         ...So, you play with Tarot, huh?  Geez, that's another place where I seem to rub the established fur the wrong way.  I do follow the common practice of assigning the major arcana to the 22 paths of the Qabalah but I don't come any where near The Golden Dawn's configuration.  And I have to use a non-illustrated deck regarding the pips.  I do treat the suits elementally, but don't see the numbers as Numbers.  The primary numbers are all in Chokmah, Pythagoras's 2nd pair of resolved opposites, Even/Odd.  The "numbers" of the pips refer just to the order of sephirotic emanation.    The reading comes out altogether differently then.

         OK, we've probably put everyone else on this list asleep by now.  But I have enjoyed your posts.
         ...BTW, yes, Aphrodite is a lovely goddess.  She drives me nuts on Fridays -- plays with my head in the most delicious ways.  Well, other days too.  I can always tell when her signature is all over what's happening.

      --- On Sat, 10/3/09, mskitty <mskitty12311@ yahoo.com> wrote:

      From: mskitty <mskitty12311@ yahoo.com>
      Subject: Re: [Pythagorean- L] Re: Intro
      To: Pythagorean- L@yahoogroups. com
      Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 9:19 PM


    • James McKinnon
      All of these traditions appear to be tied together by a... well... golden thread.  Gershom Scholem wrote that Azriel of Gerona was influenced by the Culdee
      Message 44 of 44 , Oct 5, 2009
        All of these traditions appear to be tied together by a... well... golden thread. 
        Gershom Scholem wrote that Azriel of Gerona was influenced by the Culdee philospher Eriugena. 
        I guess it keeps coming around because it is part of Nature.
        Here's a website that describes Culdee training.

        --- On Mon, 10/5/09, Joe Flower <joeflower9937@...> wrote:

        From: Joe Flower <joeflower9937@...>
        Subject: Re: [Pythagorean-L] Re: Intro
        To: Pythagorean-L@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, October 5, 2009, 2:04 PM

        I REALLY love your message.  Thank you so much.  I'm a serious student of Qabalah as well as Pythagorean philosophy and theory.   I favor the map of Sephiroth credited to the Jewish mystic, Cordovero, as does most non-Jewish Western Hermetic students of Qabalah.  But I personally think of Philo as being the author, just because of my own prejudices.  Anyway, nice post -- very informative. .

        --- On Sun, 10/4/09, James McKinnon <metatron121@ yahoo.com> wrote:

        From: James McKinnon <metatron121@ yahoo.com>
        Subject: Re: [Pythagorean- L] Re: Intro
        To: Pythagorean- L@yahoogroups. com
        Date: Sunday, October 4, 2009, 2:17 AM

        I'm a Culdee.  Culdee's, formerly trained in Irish and Scottish monasteries, could be called Christian Pythagoreans.  It was one of our philosophers, Virgil of Salzburg,  (Fergal), who came under some criticism from the Roman Church for teaching that the earth was a sphere.  We have also always been big fans of Martianus Capella.  Our philosopher Eriugena called Pythagoras the greatest of all Philosophers, and gave extensive discussion of almost all issues of Pythagorean and Platonic thought in his Periphyseon. 
        Getting to the point, our tradition had its origins with Saint John, not Peter, (this is confirmed by Bede), and in the early middle ages our tradition was treated as a rival by the Roman Church.  (These days they try to pretend we never existed.)
        Anyway, our tradition states that Jesus grew up in Alexandria during the time that Philo, sometimes called Philo the Pythagorean, was the most important religious figure in the Jewish community of Alexandria. 
        Philo, of course, used the Septuagint to teach Pythagoren/Platonic philosophy and was instrumental in divesting Hebrew scriptures of their historicity and unveiling their deeper, more allegorical/ mystical meaning. 
        As a continuation of the approach of Philo and the Theraputae of Egypt, Jesus and his closest follower John naturally maintained and promoted a style of mysticism that had a veneer of Judaism, but was in reality Greek philosophy to the core. 
        This is why so many of Jesus' sayings look like they are brief paraphrases of Epictetus, why John begins his work with the Logos doctrine, why you find Pythagorean elements in John's gospel, and why Eusebius insists that the Theraputae were early Christians.
        Anyway, after a person reads John Cassian, Gregory of Nyssa, Philo, and Eriugena, it's not nearly as difficult to imagine how Pythagoreanism might be found in Christian writings, what becomes more strange is how Christianity came to be the odd dogmatic thing it has become. 
        James McKinnon

        --- On Sat, 10/3/09, mskitty <mskitty12311@ yahoo.com> wrote:

        From: mskitty <mskitty12311@ yahoo.com>
        Subject: Re: [Pythagorean- L] Re: Intro
        To: Pythagorean- L@yahoogroups. com
        Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 2:19 PM

        Interesting post, Joe.  I certainly can relate, though truthfully never in a million years would I have thought up what you expressed, that "the best poetry is a dance between literal and figural language."  Quite a good saying, and worthy of being printed on a pretty bookmark and sold at Barnes and Noble, if you ask me. 

        One way I can relate to geometric patterns, I noticed the Monad, for instance, the One, relates to the first card in the Tarot (Rider-Waite) -- the Magician, or better, the Fool.  No -- strike that.  The cards don't really seem to reflect the Pythagorean geometry.  I thought the cards might follow numerically the second -- the intersecting circles, but they don't seem to.

        I would have to disagree on one point -- Christianity is most definitely not to be taken at face value.  Something went on 2,000 years ago.  It's been my quest to find out just what went on, how the whole thing got started, from whence it emanated.  Let alone whether JC ever existed or not. Whether there is any Truth to any of it, whether Gnostic, early Christian, Mystery Schools, ancient Egypt (from where I believe it all began) -- and believe me, many don't even consider Sitchin and the ancient Sumerians and *their* written religious records! The ancient Sumerian beliefs might actually be the original source, like the Annunakis and their genetic engineering to fashion the Adam. One has to ask: "knowledge of genetics in ancient Sumer?"

         Oh I know some claim to have "debunked" Sitchen, but who here are bona fide Sumerianologists who have access to the ancient sites and the written clay tablets and have knowledge of the ancient Sumerian language and could say, of a surety, just what the ancient Sumerians thought and believed, and what they knew? (I read a little article on the internet that actual bars were found, where the ancient Sumerians sold beer! I would have loved to have been there and seen that!

        Incidentally, Fideler's book says, in regard to the idea that the essence of the gods was defined by number, that "we know that earlier cultures possessed similar ideas and doctrines. For example, the Babylonians represented each superior god as a whole number, assigning fractions to the inferior spirits".  Apparently Sumerian cosmology was believed in -- at least by the Babylonians (I can't say at this point about the Sumerians), as the Sumerian gods Ea was represented by 40 and Anu by 60.  It would be interesting to know if gematria began with the Sumerians?  I suppose maybe it did.

        Looking at this problem of just went on back then 2,000 years ago, it's pretty much understood it began at least with the ancient Egyptian priesthoods and their Mystery Schools, where knowledge was kept hidden, and continued to be kept hidden down to the ancient Mystery Schools of Greece. Somewhere in there in antiquity -- a line was drawn that changed Time itself (i.e. from BC to AD).  How was that possible?

        All of these considerations -- and so many others -- leads me to understand that every conceivable religion starts off with gods that taught humanity things like metallurgy and mining, agriculture, astronomy, astrology, magic, mathematics,  navigation, even  how to have a civilization.   There is a "strand" here, as you see.  Advanced beings who were, and maybe still are, on this earth and who left a message "Know Thyself", like as if it were the black obelisk in "2001 Space Odyssey".  I keep thinking, where would humanity be today if that saying did not survive down through the ages? 

        These advanced beings worked through the secret societies, and later on in the guilds (though the secret societies still exist). They taught the Pythagorean sciences of Sacred Geometry.  Many today, often called the New Agers, take Sacred Geometry seriously.  Not only that, but what about the earth's ley lines, its points of energy?  What about all the ancient structures of pyramids found all over the world and built in the ancient past?  A mere coincidence? I think not.  I use to believe the mainstream that it was just a coincidence, but no more. I think it was Graham Handcock's "Fingerprints of the Gods" that convinced me otherwise.  The ancient ones, superb navigators, the first to sailed the ancient seas and charted the outlines of the continents.

        I wouldn't know about the origins of Hermes staff, but my guess is the concept does not go back to the Kabbalah, but goes back to Hellanistic Egypt, where Hermes Trismegistus  is the representation of the combination of the Greek god Hermes (god of writing) and the Egyptian god Thoth (god of magic), and both gods guided souls to the afterlife.

        Here is, perhaps, a link in that hidden strand that I wonder about:  is there any Truth to Christianity (as opposed to, say, Buddhism):

        "[The Christians] believed in a 'Prisca Theologia', the doctrine that a single, true, theology exists, which threads through all religions, and which was given by God to man in antiquity and passed through a series of prophets, which included Zoroaster and Plato..

        "In order to demonstrate the verity of the 'priscia theologia' Christians appropriated the Hermetic teachings for their own purposes. By this account Hermes Trismegistus was either, according to the fathers of the Christian church, a contemporary of Moses or the third in a line of men named Hermes, i.e. Enoch, Noah and the Egyptian priest king who is known to us as Hermes Trismegistus, or "thrice great" on account of being the greatest priest, philosopher and king."

        My question is:  Does the list believe that there exists a single, true, theology -- and that it is Christianity (as opposed to Buddhism or even Atheism)?

        Reading the personality profile of a Virgo -- it sounds like you would make a great husband:  routine-oriented, reliable, industrious, intelligent, and practical, adhering to standards that are quite high in virtually all aspects of their lives. Not to worry -- I'm not looking.

        I'm a Libra, and my goddess is Aphrodite, a lovely goddess, really.


        --- On Sat, 10/3/09, Joe Flower <joeflower9937@ yahoo.com> wrote:

        From: Joe Flower <joeflower9937@ yahoo.com>
        Subject: Re: [Pythagorean- L] Re: Intro
        To: Pythagorean- L@yahoogroups. com
        Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 8:14 AM

        I still like your style.
           Maybe because, like me, you wrestle with the business of language and like the challenges it presents.  Maybe that's what keeps us interested in occult matters.
           I have an over-developed left side of the brain that uses tools like logic, cause-and-effect, and sequentiality. I like maps.  But I yearn to beef up the right side and use intuition and see things holistically, which is difficult to me.
           I'm a mega-Virgo, with not only the sun but 3 other planets and some other stuff in that sign.  People don't come any more anal than me.
           I love poetry -- both reading and writing -- and the best poetry is a dance between literal and figural language.  The literal comes naturally to me but the figural is a challenge.  I take a battering in poetry critique groups that favor heavily figural language.  I once had a girl get right in my face and scream "Write METAPHORICALLY! !!"
           But I figure life is a matter of accepting your challenges as much as using your strengths.  I wonder how Pythagoras would respond to that statement.  Anyone want to tackle that?

           Anyway, re: the Vesica Pisces.  I take Christianity at its face value -- that the fish was adopted by early Christians because of its prominence in Jesus's ministry, food for both body and spirit.  I am not a Christian myself but can appreciate any spirituality found in symbols.
           The fact that it was borrowed from centuries of earlier Pagan traditions does no harm.  It's not like Hitler's degradation of the swastika.  I see it more akin to the medical profession's adoption of Hermes' staff, the Caduceus, which is also used, if not originating with, the Kabbalah.  (Which is another occult matter I love to torture myself with.)
           Personally, the Vesica Pisces is a geometry sacred to me just because it's created by the intersection of 2 circles.  To me, it's the geometric 2 as much as the triangle is the geometric 3. 
           As for Atlantis, I have the same heart strings tugged as you do and, yes, I believe Plato is cited the most as "evidence" of its existence.

        --- On Sat, 10/3/09, mskitty <mskitty12311@ yahoo.com> wrote:

        From: mskitty <mskitty12311@ yahoo.com>
        Subject: Re: [Pythagorean- L] Re: Intro
        To: Pythagorean- L@yahoogroups. com
        Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 1:45 AM

        Everyone's knowledgeable posts today was interesting to read.  I can easily see I don't have the philosophical language to express these ideas.  I wonder if I ever really will understand them.

         Like the reference to the monad-petad a few days ago.  Since I'm reading Fideler's book (rather slowly) I really should have picked up on the word 'monad' at least.  The number 1, expressing not a number, but the principle of Unity ('Apollo' means 'not of many', which I am pointing out for myself, really, so maybe I remember)..  In any event, the word 'monad' went clear over my head.  Short attention span, maybe. Yet 'monad' is basically the start of Fideler's book.  Well, live and learn.

        Since everyone is quite knowledgeable on the philosophy of Pythagorean learning, I would like to ask if any here have an opinion on John 21:11 -- the 153 fishes and the Vesica Piscis -- how did this obvious reference to Sacred Geometry get itself into the New Testament? And why? I came across this reference some time ago and it still baffles me.  I suppose the starting point would be the ancient Christian Gnostics slipped this one in? Though Fideler's book gets into it, I am still baffled. I read somewhere that all of the New Testament is Sacred Geometry. 

        To be sure, the wisest words I ever read are written in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi:  "Know Thyself".  I always wondered how is it that such ancient people knew enough of themselves to inscribe such a profound saying like that, in stone, over a temple?

        What if that inscription had never survived down to modern times?  As a result of that inscription a lot of profound modern thinkers might never have been (like Jung), because otherwise who -- in today's world -- is capable of coming up with such profound insight? Surely not the Pope.  And for the most part Eastern mysticism is ignored (or has been anyway, as a lot of people are now interested) by the mainstream American.  If it weren't for that inscription, one wonders if today we'd all be basically Neanderthals still not quite evolved.

        How did the ancients get that evolved?  There is a theory that some of the Atlanteans survived the destruction of their civilization.  For me this is a profound possibility.  Wasn't it Plato who wrote about the Atlanteans?


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