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Re: [Pythagorean-L] Introduction

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  • joeflower9937@yahoo.com
       Thank you for the invitation to your website.  I m sorry to take so long in reply but other business interfered and there s much to digest on your
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 25 3:55 PM
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         Thank you for the invitation to your website.  I'm sorry to take so long in reply but other business interfered and there's much to digest on your site.  Sacred geometry is a subject dear to me so I enjoy working at understanding you.  I like your treatment of it as "dialogue".  (Don't write me off as an idiot yet, but I think the crop circle phenomena is a matter of Mother communicating with extraterrestial intelligence through geometry.  Maybe a friendly little exchange with friends from somewhere far out there. lol.)
         I particularly related to your processing manner and how you draw your associations to the Sepheroth.  I also love your extensions of the Platonic Solids, transcending them into new forms, or "Star" versions.  Your mental processes work much like mine, very left-brained, though I'm more simple-minded and we work with different premises and material, all under the same banner of Kabbalah or Qabalah.
         Thanx for the tip regarding the Catholic Encyclopedia.  I was not aware that it covered the Kabbalah, though I'm not surprised.  Historically, it was studied extremely seriously by monks cloistered in their monastaries throughout Europe.  But it has fallen into contemporary disfavor, seen as a "cultist" philosophy.  I look forward to checking it out.
         To beginner students I usually recommend the same source that I started with and still regard as my mentoring vision:  Will Parfitt and his book "The New Living Qabalah".  He also wrote "The Qabalah" for the Element series. (He's a writer in the UK.)
         You might like him because he features a geometric vision..  A triangular application is at the core of his work.  I am indebted to him for the concept of the "inclusive resolution of opposites", represented by the triangle as an expansion of the line.  Two "opposite" points at the ends of a line are inclusively resolved (not compromised, which would just be another point somewhere in the same line) causing a 3rd point to be created.  Thus Kether can be seen as an inclusive resolution of Binah and Chokmah, Tiphareth as resolution of Geburah and Chesed, and Yesod resolves Hod and Netzach.  There are other triangles to be found as well and, under his perspective, the title of the middle pillar ("moderation") is misleading.  It should be seen as possessing the qualities of both "severity" and "mercy", not a compromise between them.
         Anyway, on the surface, I like your concept of applying the Platonic Solids.  I have not really had time yet to fully absorb your stuff.  But I believe Pythagoras only knew 4 of them and was searching for the 5th before he died.  (either the Dodecahedron or Icosahedron, I need to look it up.)  But I think it would still be in keeping with his spirit if the 5th Solid were applied in a Supernal Sepherah, above the Abyss.
         I have a problem with your assignments of the Solids at your designated Sepheroth but I don't see it as a fault--the problem is mine alone.  Your assignments are very consistent with tradition and, in certain critical places, I am the odd nutcake in a challenging mode with tradition.  I'll elaborate in another post if you're interested..
         As for Number, and as a Pythagorean, this is where I'd have to take serious issue with your material, found in opening and closing paragraphs, whether or not they stand as premises or conclusions.  Again, it's not a criticism as some kind of fault.  Your understanding is very consistent with traditional Hebrew Kabbalah, and Christian Cabala by extension, as well as most occult Western mystery Qabalah and all the Hasidic rabbis and Kabbalistic psychologists in New York City!  That is: Name is much more important (or sacred) than Number, "popular numerology be damned" as you say.
         I do agree that "popular numerology be damned", but that's not what Pythagoras was about when he held that Number is before all else and is, in fact and effect, divine.  In traditional Kabbalah, and Jewish tradition in general, the Name of Yaweh is so sacred that it can't be uttered by mere mortals.  But to Pythagoras, the Monad (the spirit of Number before Number) amounts to God (Yaweh).  Pythagoras is the author of the phrase "Music of the Spheres", a Number-based Creation mythology comparable to the opening text in Genesis.  If he had written the Bible, it would open with "In the Beginning was Number and Number was God..."
         Anyway, that doesn't preclude my gaining meaningful inspiration from your work, expecially in sacred geometry.  I hope you can benefit from some of my weird slants too.
         There are other features in Pythagoras' work that I apply to my understanding of the Qabalah.  For example, his Tetraktys is comparable to the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, and is derived from the triangular unitary representation of 4, created by 10 units (which gives it so much status as sacred), with 1 at the apex, 2 below that, 3 below that, and 4 units for the base.
         These are the 4 Worlds of my Pythagorean Qabalah, but given in sacred geometric representation using the 10 Sepheroth.  Kether is 1--a point with no dimension.  Chokmah and Binah is 2--a one dimensional line between two points.  Geburah, Chesed, and Tiphareth (the "ethical triangle") is 3--a two dimensional plane in a triangle of three points.  The remaining Sepheroth is 4--three dimensional reality in a pyramid, or tetrahedron, of four points.  The apex (Yesod) is essentially "created" by the expansion of a triangle from plane to pyramid, from 2 to 3 dimensional reality, in the way that the triangle was created by the expansion of the line.  It's not even necessary to alter the configuration of the Sepheroth for this concept, and the Worlds are still Origin, Creation, Formation, and Manifest.  (Or something similar.  Actually, I still love the traditional names, Atziluth, Briah, Yetzirah, and Assiah.  Nobody can do Name like those old Hebrews, huh?  I don't find myself running off for a classical Greek dictionary to make changes. lol.)
         But there is no source in traditional Kabbalah or Qabalah that I know of that divides the Sepheroth like this.  And I have even more challenges to tradition--just by working hard to incorporate all the principles and teachings of Pythagoras that I can lay my mind on.   But I'll have to save stuff for another posting if you're interested.
         ...OK, one more teaser:  Pythagoras taught that there are 8 paths of Knowledge (not to be confused with Da'ath).  And there are exactly 8 paths leading out from Tiphareth!  (Tiphareth is the Sepherah of the ego dimension, the Self in the here and now, or the Christ consciousness in Christian Kabbalah, etc.  I  call it "The Control Tower".)  Each of the 8 paths leads to one of the other Sepheroth.  Only Malkuth, the closest to our physical world, is reached indirectly, through Yesod.  (I call that the mind-body connection or "The Bond")
         Perhaps more significantly, in contrasting my Pythagorean Qabalah with traditional Kabbalah, is in NOT dealing with the 10 Commandments.  Even though I respect that application as totally valid.  How could a traditional Hebrew model NOT apply the 10 Commandments?
         But I cannot ignore the teachings of Pythagoras.  He posed exactly 10 Pairs of Opposites--"resolved" entities emanated in a particular order--which are somehow "unresolved" upon creation and seek to become whole again.  That's so Kabbalistic!  Maybe it was something in the air in the Mediterranean basin and Fertile Crescent a few thousand years ago.
         These pairs, in order, are as follows.  I'm attaching the Sepheroth too, but that's my addition.  I don't know of anything that survives on Pythagoras that mentions the Kabbalah, though he did study in Egypt for about 20 years, so I can't believe he didn't know all about it.  Bear in mind that the sacred spirit of Number is behind it all.
      Limited/Unlimited   -- Kether
      Odd/Even              -- Chokmah
      Many/One             -- Binah
      Right/Left              -- Chesed
      Male/Female         -- Geburah
      Moving/Still           -- Tiphareth
      Straight/Curved      -- Netzach
      Light/Dark             -- Hod
      Good/Evil              -- Yesod
      Square/Oblong      -- Malkuth
         A couple other points of departure worth mentioning:
            For all the same reasons that I don't engage the 10 Commandments, I don't deal with Archangels for association/rulership in the Sepheroth either.  I deal much more with planetary influence and rulership than the traditionalists do.  Pythagoras, like all the classical Greeks, knew the validity of both geo-centric (Ptolmeic) and helio-centric astronomy.  This is remarkably reflected in the Qabalah from the point of view at Malkuth (geo-centric) and from Tiphareth (helio-centric) though it is predominantly geo-centric.  But it wasn't until Christianity that one had to be true and the other false/heresy.
            I also spend much more energy on the Veil of Paroketh than traditionalists, some of whom don't even mention it or they don't agree on where it's supposed to be placed.  The Veil, of course, played an immensely important role in Pythagoras' ministry.  I find it most meaningful to place it right through the middle of Tiphareth.
         All right, I'll quit boring everyone now.  Thank you again for inviting me to your webside and inviting me to ramble on and on about the Pythagorean Qabalah.
         Blessed Be.

      --- On Thu, 3/19/09, vincent beall <theosophers@...> wrote:

      From: vincent beall <theosophers@...>
      Subject: Re: [Pythagorean-L] Introduction
      To: Pythagorean-L@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, March 19, 2009, 5:22 AM

      Please visit my website. And tell us something about pythagorean Qabbalah.
      Best regards,

      --- On Sat, 3/14/09, joeflower9937 <joeflower9937@ yahoo.com> wrote:

      From: joeflower9937 <joeflower9937@ yahoo.com>
      Subject: [Pythagorean- L] Introduction
      To: Pythagorean- L@yahoogroups. com
      Date: Saturday, March 14, 2009, 9:39 PM

      I'm a new member in this group. I go by the name of Joe Flower on the internet, not that I'm ashamed of my birth name, but coming to the name "Joe Flower" is a long story and I don't want to bore anyone if not necessary. I'm a new person in terms of computer use but an old man in terms of years spent on the planet, so please bear with me.
      My spiritual life in a nutshell: I thought I was a normal Christian up through adolescence, serious enough about it to begin college preparation for theological seminary. But then I was disqualified for holding "non-Christian" tenets and beliefs. So I spent my productive adult years trying to make do with a humanistic atheism.
      I subsequently learned that I was NOT "non-Christian" in my earlier years, but a Gnostic Christian. As in "heresy". The Nag Hammadi scrolls and related knowledges had not been revealed yet. By then I had made the fabulous discovery (15 to 18 years ago?) that I had been a Pagan all my life. My spiritual life has been an absolute joy ever since.
      I covered a lot of ground in my enthusiasm for my new identity. I love just about all the topics listed in the description for this group. But two stand out above the rest: Pythagoreanism (with all related topics like Pythagoras' life, Orphism, sacred arithmetic and geometry, tetraktys, etc.) and the Qabalah (Western Mystery, with due respect also to the Hebrew Kabbalah).
      For me, these two topics merged several years ago. The merger became so intense that I seriously prepared to write a book called The Phythagorean Qabalah. Unfortunately, the project was sidetracked by health issues and other unexpected developments in my life.
      But it is this interest with which I'm approaching this group and my membership. Who knows, maybe my book will come back to life before my own comes to its conclusion.
      Blessed Be.

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