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Re: [PulseDiagnosis] patterns?

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  • Are Thoresen
    Dear Will, I would love to give an example. i use the 12 positions, correlating to the 12 meridians, and the patterns relating to the 8 extras. Let us sat that
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 1, 2002
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      Dear Will,
      I would love to give an example.
      i use the 12 positions, correlating to the 12 meridians, and the patterns relating to the 8 extras.
      Let us sat that the HT i weak on the left side, and additionally the LU is weak, SP is medium and PC is strong.
      The therapy will then be PC6 right, as the pattern give me Yin Wei Mo right.
      If the HT comes up, then it is OK. If not, I would add HT09 left side.
      Are
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:59 AM
      Subject: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] patterns?

      Are -

      You are very fortunate to have studied with him if it is the same van Nghi I am thinking of. When you have time could you give an example of how the system works?

      thanks - will


      In a message dated 2/28/02 12:11:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, arethore@... writes:


      I don't know how Worsely or Wu Xing take or analyses the pulses. I learned to take the pulse from a Vietnamese doctor who lived in Holland, Nygien van Gni (or something like that).
      It is about finding the original deficiency, and where it started by analysing the patterns and/or the strength of the pulses.




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    • Are Thoresen
      And I would add, the pulses also talk with the patient, the situation and the therapists, so that two persons may get different answers of what to do. Are Are
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 1, 2002
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        And I would add, the pulses also talk with the patient, the situation and the therapists, so that two persons may get different answers of what to do.
        Are

        Are Simeon Thoresen
        arethore@...
        http://home.online.no/~arethore/


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Ed Lambert" <eternalb@...>
        To: <PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:09 PM
        Subject: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] patterns?


        > The idea I have behind patterns, is that the pulses are talking and relating to each other. There is a pattern to how they talk with one another.
        > This is different than finding a stress on a certain level of one pulse position for locating the nature of an illness.
        > A pattern of how the pulses talk with each other would reveal the holistic aspect of what is going on inside a person. Any comments on this?
        > Ed
        >
        >
        >
        > The mission of this group is to provide a forum for the discussion of pulse diagnosis so that a depth of understanding is furthered.
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        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > PulseDiagnosis-unsubscribe@egroups.com
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      • WMorris116@AOL.COM
        Are - Based on this treatment, it appears as though you consider the master point sufficient to activate an eight extra vessel. In such an instance, how do you
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 1, 2002
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          Are -

          Based on this treatment, it appears as though you consider the master point sufficient to activate an eight extra vessel. In such an instance, how do you generate the influence of the Luo function as separate?

          Will

          The therapy will then be PC6 right, as the pattern give me Yin Wei Mo right.
          If the HT comes up, then it is OK. If not, I would add HT09 left side.


        • WMorris116@AOL.COM
          Ed this is a particularly interesting metaphor. Can you give an example? Will In a message dated 2/28/02 9:15:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 1, 2002
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            Ed this is a particularly interesting metaphor. Can you give an example?

            Will


            In a message dated 2/28/02 9:15:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, eternalb@... writes:




            The idea I have behind patterns, is that the pulses are talking and relating to each other.  There is a pattern to how they talk with one another.
            This is different than finding a stress on a certain level of one pulse position for locating the nature of an illness.
            A pattern of how the pulses talk with each other would reveal the holistic aspect of what is going on inside a person.  Any comments on this?


          • Carolatsorigcntr@aol.com
            I like this metaphor as well. I ve noticed a correlation between weak kidney and heart pulses, for example, in patients who are struggling with what s my
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 1, 2002
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              I like this metaphor as well.  I've noticed a correlation between weak kidney and heart pulses, for example, in patients who are struggling with "what's my purpose in life vs. what am I actually doing with my life" suggesting the pattern of heart and kidney not communicating, destiny not matchng with personal manifestation in the world,etc.   Of course, with many of these folks, you'll get the physical/emotional sx also reflecting the weaknesses in the pulses:  anxiety, palpitations, fatigue, etc.  Is this the kind of "talking" to which you refer, Ed?
              (Please be kind . . .this is my first posting to this list and I am definately a neophyte)
              Carol DeMent
              Sorig Center Counseling & Acupuncture
              Olympia, WA   


            • jramholz
              Ed: This is the perspective we employ in the Dong Han pulse systen. Just as you expressed it, the stress on a certain level of a single position is actually
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 1, 2002
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                Ed:

                This is the perspective we employ in the Dong Han pulse systen. Just
                as you expressed it, the stress on a certain level of a single
                position is actually secondary or derived from the communication
                going on between different organs, different levels, etc. An
                metaphor would be knowing how much money is in your account, but not
                knowing what bills are due and what transfers out are going out.

                While the Nan Jing speaks about the 5-Phases movement of one organ
                to another (e.g., a wiry movement in the stomach is a movement---or
                communication---from the liver), we can also look at the other
                movements between contiguous positions. So, if we see a wiry
                movement in the stomach it may be from the liver; but if we see a
                wiry movement from right distal fu to the stomach, then it is from
                SJ or nervous system. In the first example, it is one organ
                overbearing on another; in the second case, it is the way a person
                internalizes their mental stress in their digestive tract. One is
                entirely a somatic process, the other is psychosomatic. But unless
                you sense the wiry movement going horizontally from the SJ, between
                the positions, and then into the stomach, you may not notice the
                connection. The stomach itself may be deficient or excessive, etc.
                Another example would be if the heart and kidney movements were
                asynchronous---independent of whatever 8-Principle description you
                would see in either. The clinical significance is that mind and body
                are not communicating well---to the degree of asynchronization.

                Interestingly, I haven't heard anyone explicitly express this idea
                outside of our system until your comment. There are now a number of
                books on Complexity Theory which defines pathology differently than
                the allopathic and 8-Principle view---as a problem of the
                information exchange of the system. It is a nonlinear, systems
                approach that 5-Phase interactions are well suited for (I would say
                prefigure Complexity). Manaka, in 1995, also proposed that 5-Phases
                was a signaling system rather than a description like zang/fu or 8-
                Principles which emphasizes quantity.


                Jim Ramholz





                --- In PulseDiagnosis@y..., Ed Lambert <eternalb@i...> wrote:
                > The idea I have behind patterns, is that the pulses are talking
                and relating to each other. There is a pattern to how they talk
                with one another.
                > This is different than finding a stress on a certain level of one
                pulse position for locating the nature of an illness.
                > A pattern of how the pulses talk with each other would reveal the
                holistic aspect of what is going on inside a person. Any comments
                on this?
                > Ed
              • Are Thoresen
                Hi Will, I guess it depend more on intent than actual cookbook. Are Are Simeon Thoresen arethore@online.no http://home.online.no/~arethore/ ... From:
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 1, 2002
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                  Hi Will,
                  I guess it depend more on intent than actual cookbook.
                  Are
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 4:33 PM
                  Subject: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] patterns?

                  Are -

                  Based on this treatment, it appears as though you consider the master point sufficient to activate an eight extra vessel. In such an instance, how do you generate the influence of the Luo function as separate?

                  Will

                  The therapy will then be PC6 right, as the pattern give me Yin Wei Mo right.
                  If the HT comes up, then it is OK. If not, I would add HT09 left side.




                  The mission of this group is to provide a forum for the discussion of pulse diagnosis so that a depth of understanding is furthered.

                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  PulseDiagnosis-unsubscribe@egroups.com



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                • WMorris116@AOL.COM
                  ... Are, I agree with you - cookbook is not something I particularly care for. The reason I ask is this. During twenty years of using the eight extras, I have
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 2, 2002
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                    Hi Will,
                    I guess it depend more on intent than actual cookbook.



                    Are,

                    I agree with you - cookbook is not something I particularly care for. The reason I ask is this. During twenty years of using the eight extras, I have seen many rules about their use. Most of them have proven to be fallacy in my experience. For instance, many people consider the master-couple relationship to be a necessary part of the treatment. I do not and apparently you agree.

                    Recently my focus is to needle the master point and points along the trajectory of the vessel. This to me gives a higher definition than merely needling master and couple. I think to needle one master point also gives more definition than using the couple does.

                    Are, you also cited an eight extra vessel pulse, have you seen the eight Extra Vessel pulse article in acupuncture today? It is based on the teachings of Wang Shuhe and Li Zhishen. It can be accessed here:
                    http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2002/jan/01morris.html

                    Will
                  • Ed Lambert
                    Nice insights all around. Will, you asked for an example. Carol actually gave a good example of Heart and Kidney talking in respect to purpose in life and
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 2, 2002
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                      Nice insights all around.
                      Will, you asked for an example. Carol actually gave a good example of Heart and Kidney talking in respect to purpose in life and what is being done about it.
                      Another metaphor for the pulses talking is a jury. Imagine 12 people in a room trying to reach consensus. When there isn't consensus, someone has an unresolved issue?
                      For me, when I feel a pulse as opposed to not feeling a pulse, that shows me that the pulse has concerns and is expressing those concerns. When I don't hear a pulse, that means that the pulse is listening to who is
                      talking or just holding its position on the matter.. The quiet, listening pulse may or may not respond to what is being said.

                      Like Are said, 'pulses talk with the therapist' too. Sometimes I ask the pulses questions directly. It's like they notice that I want to interact with them instead of just observe them.
                      In asking a question I listen to what they have to say. Like the Lung pulse, I may ask, "are you fighting off an external pathogen, or are you grieving?" Instead of me trying to figure it out, I just ask the pulse
                      how deep the stress goes. The pulse will change a little bit and I'll do my best to interpret it.

                      Ed
                    • Are Thoresen
                      Will, I don t reed too much of the articles. Usually I try to find the connections myself, I try to find the phenomenological connections, and in using them, I
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 2, 2002
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                        Will,
                        I don't reed too much of the articles.
                        Usually I try to find the connections myself, I try to find the phenomenological connections, and in using them, I usually get the information from the body that I need.
                        Are
                         
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