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5-depths as discussed in the classics

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  • James Ramholz
    Will: I ve uploaded a new article to the Files section. It s a short commentary on 5-depths as discussed in the Nan Jing and Mai Jing. I ve included the
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 4, 2001
      Will:

      I've uploaded a new article to the Files section. It's a short
      commentary on 5-depths as discussed in the Nan Jing and Mai Jing.

      I've included the Unschuld translation of the Nan Jing material
      (Chapter 5 and commentaries) as well as the Yang Shou-zhong
      translation of the Mai Jing (Book 1, Chapter 6) so people can read
      the source material along with my short commentary.

      Hope you find it interesting.

      Jim Ramholz
    • WMorris116@AOL.COM
      In a message dated 9/4/01 7:36:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Jim....I find this stuff not only intelectually stimulating but clinically useful. I think that
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 4, 2001
        In a message dated 9/4/01 7:36:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
        jramholz@... writes:


        I've uploaded a new article to the Files section. It's a short
        commentary on 5-depths as discussed in the Nan Jing and Mai Jing.

        I've included the Unschuld translation of the Nan Jing material
        (Chapter 5 and commentaries) as well as the Yang Shou-zhong
        translation of the Mai Jing (Book 1, Chapter 6) so people can read
        the source material along with my short commentary.

        Hope you find it interesting.


        Jim....I find this stuff not only intelectually stimulating but clinically
        useful. I think that as practitioners we need more exposure to the discipline
        of creative application of classical passages.

        Will
      • Rory Kerr
        Hi James, Would you agree that these depths pertain only to pathology, rather than physiology? The reason I say this is that at the pulse will be considered
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 4, 2001
          Hi James,

          Would you agree that these depths pertain only to pathology, rather
          than physiology? The reason I say this is that at the pulse will be
          considered floating at level of the skin and hair, and this usually
          relates to the lung pathology. Likewise, at the bone the pulse will
          only be felt if it is pathologically deep. For the 3 middle depths in
          this scheme, I would assume that the correspondence would hold if
          there was a pathological quality at that depth. On the other hand, in
          a case where there is no pulse at the skin or bone, and nothing
          remarkable in between, then this system of correspondence would not
          be useful.

          Rory
        • WMorris116@AOL.COM
          In a message dated 9/4/01 8:39:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Rory, I haven t read James piece yet. In my opinion Nan Jing Chapter Five is describing tissue
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 4, 2001
            In a message dated 9/4/01 8:39:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
            rorykerr@... writes:


            Would you agree that these depths pertain only to pathology, rather
            than physiology?


            Rory, I haven't read James piece yet. In my opinion Nan Jing Chapter Five is
            describing tissue layers - anatomy. Location = anatomy and quality = process.
            However, in this instance I would take the five depths to represent a range
            of vessel palpation within the area between the Qi and Organ depths.

            The reason I say this is that at the pulse will be

            considered floating at level of the skin and hair, and this usually
            relates to the lung pathology. Likewise, at the bone the pulse will
            only be felt if it is pathologically deep. For the 3 middle depths in
            this scheme, I would assume that the correspondence would hold if
            there was a pathological quality at that depth. On the other hand, in
            a case where there is no pulse at the skin or bone, and nothing
            remarkable in between, then this system of correspondence would not
            be useful.


            In my opinion this system is remarkably useful. You are arguing the same
            point many authors who have refuted this chapter have. Students when
            introduced to the material for the first time in a group will have a faction
            representing this point of view. Yet, at the same time there will be a
            faction maintaining the clear usefulness of this chapter.

            I teach this material and find it clinically useful. It holds up under
            clinical scrutiny.

            Will
          • James Ramholz
            Rory: In our system, any break in symmetry from a normal sine wave would be considered pathological if the body is not able to self-regulate itself and return
            Message 5 of 5 , Sep 5, 2001
              Rory:

              In our system, any break in symmetry from a normal sine wave would be
              considered pathological if the body is not able to self-regulate
              itself and return to the normal sine wave. When all the energies are
              substantial and communicating without obstruction, then there is no
              pathological pulse---in fact, no real pulse for anything---but I've
              only see this quality of health in only a few people walking in my
              door and, in myself, spontaneously for about 10 minutes every decade.
              In this way, you can watch any process develop and unfold, then
              return to its originally integrated state. But we never separate the
              idea of the pulse quality from the space where it manifest (like
              matter and energy in physics). So, we are agreed in thinking that if
              a pulse is not manifesting along this line, there is no information
              and no pathology; and, therefore, this system would not be useful.

              By defining and occupying a particular physical space the pulse
              assumes a certain kind of information. In the case of 5-depths model,
              that information is about the pathology of certain types of tissue---
              related by 5-Phases and the quality of the pulse. In 3-depths, its
              about qi, blood, and organs. In 27-sectors, the 3-depths model is
              expanded to include the inherent spin (or torque) of a normal and
              pathological pulses, as well as dividing the jiao into left and right
              sides physically and energetically (similarly to Mai Jing, Book 1,
              Chapter 13, dividing each position into 8-sectors).

              That's why I raised the example of bone cancer and breast cancer.
              Energetically, the two types of cancer may be similar in many ways,
              but they attack different types of tissue---not organs. This model
              therefore complements the other, organ-centered pulse models---and is
              one way of examining the body from perspectives other than zang-fu.

              We may have a difference, though, in certain expectations because we
              examine these longitudinal depths just as we would the proximal,
              middle, and distal positions---as physical sections integral to
              themselves, and with pulse qualities that may be found independent of
              any other process going on---even in the same jiao. This can also be
              said of 2- or 3-depths, or 27-sectors.

              Jim Ramholz




              --- In PulseDiagnosis@y..., Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:
              > Hi James,
              >
              > Would you agree that these depths pertain only to pathology, rather
              > than physiology? The reason I say this is that at the pulse will be
              > considered floating at level of the skin and hair, and this usually
              > relates to the lung pathology. Likewise, at the bone the pulse will
              > only be felt if it is pathologically deep. For the 3 middle depths
              in
              > this scheme, I would assume that the correspondence would hold if
              > there was a pathological quality at that depth. On the other hand,
              in
              > a case where there is no pulse at the skin or bone, and nothing
              > remarkable in between, then this system of correspondence would not
              > be useful.
              >
              > Rory
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