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Re: Personality through the pulse.

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  • Audrey Stewart
    Dear All, I have been chewing on this awhile to get the words straight. First, I am still such a beginner so any insight from others is always helpful. Lonny s
    Message 1 of 6 , May 6, 2013
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      Dear All,

      I have been chewing on this awhile to get the words straight.

      First, I am still such a beginner so any insight from others is always helpful. Lonny's reply gives me a little trepidation in that no, I don't see a person's personality instantly. Ahh, something else to work on! The details of many the things they are can be a little overwhelming and take several visits with them to figure out or someone may have had a life where they have perfected closing off their true selves or faces to others. When I feel the pusle of someone who doesn't or can't emote very well, then their pulse tells me more. They mention stress but are very calm. When I feel a excess Spleen pulse then I ask them if the stress is not actually worry. I didn't see it on the face probably due to inexperience or like I said noticing the other details of them. In this case the "stress" was not the complaint but certainly was part of the branch.

      Is there a better way to assess personality at first contact? I am looking and "seeing" but still so imperfectly.

      Regards,
      Audrey Stewart


    • Chistopher Macie
      Hi All, Mon, May 06, 2013 08:23 AM, Audrey Stewart wrote: ... Lonny s reply gives me a little trepidation in that no, I don t see a
      Message 2 of 6 , May 6, 2013
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        Hi All,


        Mon, May 06, 2013 08:23 AM, Audrey Stewart <1astewart@...> wrote:

        "... Lonny's reply gives me a little trepidation in that no, I don't see a person's personality instantly...",

        and

        "... someone may have had a life where they have perfected closing off their true selves or faces to others..."


        Lonny's approach I can't speak to... 18-19th May is his workshop in Berkeley on Pulse, where I might find out...


        But over the weekend I attended Jeffrey Yuen's workshop on 'Personality Through the Pulses', which outlined a methodology to work with. (It's continuing today with the 'practicum', but I couldn't be there.) This approach did speak to Audrey's characterization (above).


        Jeffrey used 'personality' as translation for 'xingge' -- a traditional (and modern) term for an individual's inborn temperment or disposition. The framework was considering this as an aspect of 'destiny', of the jing unfolding as a Taoist 'curriculum' for a lifetime, i.e. hence an aspect of constitution.


        Since (in Jeffrey's intrepretation) historical CM from origins up to, roughly, the Song era considered 'ming' (fate, destiny) as relatively immutable (8-extra channels as practically inaccessible), he invoked a Ming dynasty approach (Li ShiZhen et al), where ming, constitution first became an issue to work with (as 'acquired' or post-natal jing) in Dx and Tx (e.g. introduction of the 'opening points' to the 8-extra 'qijing bamai')


        Although Jeffrey admitted he himself uses more 'morphological' observation (face, body,...) to find personal 'type' (as did also Dr. John Shen), he outlined it here in terms of pulse, and relative to the wuxing (5 phases/elements) type system.


        The basic approach (my interpretation -- not necessarily accurate or authoritative):


        1) Assess the six pulse positions to find which has the most distinctive 'presense' at the bone depth ('12 beans' of pressure); this gives a type:

        Right side: cun = metal; guan = earth; chi = yang water (adrenals, UB)

        Left side: cun = fire; guan = wood; chi = yin water (Ki)

        (And consider if this might be conditioned rather then the innate type, for instance if it 'vibrates'. Like what Audrey mentions as "...perfected closing off their true selves...")


        Jeffrey used many illustrations: e.g. a young child of innate fire type -- inquisitive, outgoing -- who is intimidated by a sibling who would repeatedly frighten the child, hence conditioning by fear to assume a water type -- more introverted...


        2) Analyze and assess further according to traditional

        a) functions or roles of the corresponding zang organ (e.g. metal diffusing and descending; earth tranforming and transporting; etc.) and

        b) the characteristics of the corresponding fu channel (behavioral manifestations of the zang functions) to further investigate.

        That is, by successively reducing pressure coming up (15 beans, 12, 5, 3...) or increasing going back down, assess the dynamic relationships across the pulse depths -- for instance, is there descension at metal (gaining strength going down)? ascending at earth (Spleen aspect)? outward scattering at fire?


        This can show how the elemental associated functions are (physiologically) or are not (pathologically) working. Jeffry suggests also using seemingly casual 'chit-chat' to probe the patient with questions, framed according to the perceived type -- i.e. ask metal about "letting go" aspects of their life; ask wood about "doing", ask fire about what's exciting in their life, etc. I.e. seek 'resonance' with the patient's experience and response to their situation.


        He went through all six positions/types following this template, adding aside comments as to associated aspects of function, Dx, and treatment, such as points, herbs that can apply, the Chinese terms (and analysis of their radical components) and often adding the historical context where such ideas or appliations stem from -- e.g. "according to Li dongyuan", or "as in the Worsley school",...


        His overall approach, as always, is to ellicit the patient's self-awareness, realization of what's going, as a path to 'self-healing'.


        That's an into/overview (without having to go back and analyze the 12 pages of small-print notes I took).


        Chris Macie

      • Lonny
        ... Lonny: The personality is always there, it s just a question of having a framework that allows for nuanced distinctions. We know others to the degree we
        Message 3 of 6 , May 12, 2013
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          >
          > First, I am still such a beginner so any insight from others is always helpful. Lonny's reply gives me a little trepidation in that no, I don't see a person's personality instantly.

          Lonny: The personality is always there, it's just a question of having a framework that allows for nuanced distinctions. We know others to the degree we know ourselves. Any distinction you make on the pulse will require the same nuance.

          Audrey: Ahh, something else to work on! The details of many the
          > things they are can be a little overwhelming and take several visits with them to figure out or someone may have had a life where they have perfected closing off their true selves or faces to others.

          Lonny: Leon Hammer has always noted that some people can suppress findings on the pulse in exactly the same way. However, even this is a finding! Everything the person is doing is telling about themselves every instant. No one can really hide the truth.


          Audrey: When I feel the pulse of someone who doesn't or can't emote very well, then their pulse tells me more.


          Lonny: Why? What does "the ability to emote" have to do with "personality"? Isn't the finding that they "don't or can't" (Only a psychopath "can't") emote a finding about their personality?


          Audrey: They mention stress but are very calm.

          Lonny: Isn't that a finding about their personality?

          Audrey: When I feel a excess Spleen pulse then I ask them if
          the stress is not actually worry. I didn't see it on the face probably due to inexperience or like I said noticing the other details of them.

          Lonny: All of a who a person is , is present in all of who they are in every moment. Even if you feel an "excess spleen pulse" (excess in what- qi stagnation, damp, heat, phlegm?)....that doesn't mean it's the cause of anything. It can be a secondary or tertiary effect of something else.


          Audrey: Is there a better way to assess personality at first contact? I am looking and
          > "seeing" but still so imperfectly.

          Lonny: Well, the most important part is that you are asking all the right questions! Just keep correlating all your observations, Color, Sound, Odor, Emotion, Pulse, behavior, belief, tongue, eyes.....and remember they are all always pointing to the same thing. They are all different facets of a diamond giving a view into a central reality......

          Regards, Lonny Jarrett
        • Audrey Stewart
          Dear Lonny Thanks so much for your time to respond. I appreciate the setup of your reply as well. It seems like my life experiences are simply to understand
          Message 4 of 6 , May 31, 2013
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            Dear Lonny

            Thanks so much for your time to respond. I appreciate the setup of your reply as well. It seems like my life experiences are simply to understand and help others but it seems that it also is myself I'm helping as well. Thanks for holding up that mirror. 

            I guess what I mean about the "emoting" is there are some people who have such a difficult time describing their state. They will even say they can't describe it or just say "I don't know". Does being presented with a patient who is out of touch with their self  mean that I am also out of touch with that particular aspect of myself because I can't look at them and say "oh yes, I see"? Or are we just not jiving?


            Is it better to have a more flexible "framework" or know yourself better? Trying on someone else shoes or just wear my own? Or is the framework based on the degree of "education", i.e. knowledge/experience to see the nuances. Please tell me more what your definition of "framework is.

            Thanks again,

            Audrey 


          • Chistopher Macie
            Hi all, Has anyone had substantive experience (i.e. classical Chinese diagnosis and herbal medicine) understanding and treating conditions like Dupuytren s
            Message 5 of 6 , Jun 3, 2013
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              Hi all,


              Has anyone had substantive experience (i.e. classical Chinese diagnosis and herbal medicine) understanding and treating conditions like 'Dupuytren's contracture' ans / or plantar fibromatosis ('Ledderhose's disease')? For instance, with Shen-Hammer or other highly developed systems to discover possible etiological associations from constitution or developmental and life-style factors? (and hence possible treatment strategies beyond the symptomatic.) E.g. what to look for?


              Despite almost two centuries of extensive WM experience with these, they really don't appear to know much about the etiology, other than the descriptive; and the well-investigated treatment modalities are mostly just "management," not to mention highly invasive and with some risk.


              I have a case which appears, on first impression, to suggest some connection between strong Liver characteristics (constitutional, or at least, life-long) that are being successfully managed with social / cultural conditioning. I sense some relationship between that and the phlegm nodules in the sinews, as distortion of blood function in terms of CM Liver (seen physiologically or otherwise) management and storage of blood (and it's relationship to jing).


              Thanks,

              Chris Macie, L.Ac.

            • Lonny
              Hi Chris, I ve treated these frequently enough (more in the hands) and never affected a cure . Many people report improvements in ROM and certainly less pain.
              Message 6 of 6 , Jun 4, 2013
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                Hi Chris,

                I've treated these frequently enough (more in the hands) and never affected a "cure". Many people report improvements in ROM and certainly less pain. But I've never seen a finger go straight for example. There are a few considerations that come to mind.

                The first is that while the physiological DX may be similar in many patients (phlegm, heat, yinxu) any constitution could manifest the SX.

                Secondly, CM can differentiate anything. And of course we naturally feel that if we can discern the functional dynamic and match a therapeutic response to it that it should improve. However, these conditions are rather slow developing and I suspect that by the time they are causing problems they are too concretized/entrenched for us to reverse.

                Lastly is the question of, "How long would we give herbs for this condition to reverse it and what would the overall health consequences be of doing that"? It's an interesting contemplation in relationship to a issue such as this.

                Lastly, I wonder if a liniment such as Andy Ellis sells over at Spring Wind wouldn't be applicable? It could address the tendons and inflammation in the tissue directly. but, again the question would be , "how long."? Even if a patient said it was helping would I suggest to apply it for years? Generally, I haven't unless I'm treating deep constitutional patterns/serious illness.

                WDYT?

                Warm Regards, Lonny
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