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Re: [PulseDiagnosis] Concaved at left cun

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  • Ross Rosen
    Hi Will, The concave term that I think you are referring to is in the Pulsynergy book. Is that correct? I m sure that Jimmy Wei Chang has much more to say
    Message 1 of 34 , Jan 25, 2011
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      Hi Will,
      The concave term that I think you are referring to is in the Pulsynergy book.  Is that correct?  I'm sure that Jimmy Wei Chang has much more to say about it than what is conveyed in that short book, though....  I can understand what you are saying in terms of the similarity towards a pulse that is separating, but from my experience, one can have a concave pulse that never seems to separate over time.  Can you describe what you are sensing and referring to?  What I do find quite often is that a pulse which is very Reduced Substance over time will begin to separate and this happens a lot at the organ depth as one is moving towards an Empty pulse.

      Warmly,
      Ross

      On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 8:57 PM, William Morris <wmorris33@...> wrote:
       

      Ross -

      I agree with you about the more limited presentation of the spreading pulse. It is involving the qi and blood depth. This, however, is a subset of the concave. It can only be sinking if it is also deep. It also has to do with shape more than the arrival and departure of the wave.

      Now, this conversation assumes that we have a common definition of the concave pulse, and I suspect we may not. Jimmy Wei Chang, as far as I can tell, coined the term concave. I use his presentation. I am certain that we have exactly the same understanding of the spreading pulse.

      Warmly,

      Will

      On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Ross Rosen <rossrosen@...> wrote:
       

      Jay
      I typically see this as some issue relating to HT qi deficiency with some dampness in the chest.  A pulse that is concave or cosine can be seen as the opposite to the normal sine curve.  I have also heard of this shape being referred to as the water phase's stone or sinking pulse and sometimes think of it in this regard.

      To clarify the terms, Will, I wouldn't say that concave is similar to "spreading" as that is typically a definition that we describe as where the blood depth begins to separate.  That term is generally limited to that context.  In that context, however, it would be qi and blood deficiency.  But generally a concave pulse feels very different that a spreading pulse which is limited to that locale. 

      Best,
      Ross



      On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 2:21 PM, William Morris <wmorris33@...> wrote:
       

      Jay -

      Concave is similar to Hammer's spreading. The concave term is usually used in the Jimmy Wei-Chang camp. Hammer says deficiency of qi and blood. It depends on the force and rate of arrival. There can be damp if it is spreading and weak.

      Warmly,

      Will


      On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 11:34 AM, jay bulloch <jaybulloch@...> wrote:
       

      While we're at it.


      Does anyone have some other insights of a concave pulse at the left cun?

      It's not just deep. It feels like the finger is sitting in a little basin. You can feel the pulse impression around the finger, but it is sitting in a depression.

      J


      To: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
      From: rossrosen@...
      Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 21:45:54 -0500
      Subject: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] Floating Chi position

       
      In addition to all the things that Will mentions, I have also learned and apply floating pulses in the chi positions to yang ming type issues (cun tai yang; guan shao yang), but these are very often not just acute pathogenic invasions, but rather can be long term holding patterns.   What kind of orientation were you using for the patient's hand (ie, palm facing up or sideways)? 

      Ross


      On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 9:35 PM, William Morris <wmorris33@...> wrote:
       
      Hi Jourga -

      1st, the shape you describe is consistent with the Yin Qiao Mai as I describe it. If we take it literally from Wang Shu-he and Li Shi-zhen it must also be like a bead moving side to side.

      The yin qiao is a walker vessel, so I would expect there to be some musculoskeletal complaint. Having said that, I would also explore areas of shock and trauma (usually physical for the qiaos). I would also explore endocrinological function. Kidneys are trans-systemic including the hematopoietic system, reproductive system, central nervous system, endocrine system and urinary tract. The yin qiao shape can also be present in a person who is anxious and overly vigilant (increased adrenaline and noradrenalin).

      As for external attack, this is usually assessed in both cun positions. That is, unless there is a pathogen that penetrates the lower body through some exposure such as injury or otherwise. When external attack takes place, the pulse only floats if there is sufficient qi to raise the pulse up. This is often not the case. The prime concerns in the advent of the external attack are whether the condition is hot, cold or both and whether the condition is transforming to the interior.

      Warmly,

      Will


      On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 4:14 AM, Jorga Houy <j_houy@...> wrote:
       

      I had a patient today who's pulse was floating bilatterally in the chi position. The position was a bit thready, and present at all three depths and had root. There were no signs or symptoms of exterior pathogen, and no urinary issues.
      I would love to hear opinions on this.

      Thanks,
      Jorga Houy, L.Ac.

       









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      William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc
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      http://www.aoma.edu/
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      --
      _/I\_
      Ross Rosen, LAc, Dipl OM (NCCAOM)
      Center for Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine
      166 Mountain Ave.
      Westfield, NJ  07090
      (908) 654-4333
      http://www.acupunctureandherbalmedicine.com
      http://rossrosen.blogspot.com
      Ross Rosen's Interview on Blog Talk Tadio http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Larry-Elliott/2008/10/02/Founder-of-Center-for-Acupuncture-Addresses-Root-Causes-of-Health-Issues-
      Ross Rosen's Lecture Jan. 12 2009 on Chinese medicine and his upcoming book debunking many western medical myths on health
      http://www.acupunctureandherbalmedicine.com/forms/Ross_Lecture_011209.mp3
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      --
      William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc
      http://pulsediagnosis.com/
      http://www.aoma.edu/
      http://taaom.org/

      This message, including attachments, contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual(s) named. Any use by others is strictly prohibited. Do not disseminate, distribute or copy this email. Please notify the sender immediately by email if you have received this email by mistake, and delete this email from your system.



      --
      _/I\_
      Ross Rosen, LAc, Dipl OM (NCCAOM)
      Center for Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine
      166 Mountain Ave.
      Westfield, NJ  07090
      (908) 654-4333
      http://www.acupunctureandherbalmedicine.com
      http://rossrosen.blogspot.com
      Ross Rosen's Interview on Blog Talk Tadio http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Larry-Elliott/2008/10/02/Founder-of-Center-for-Acupuncture-Addresses-Root-Causes-of-Health-Issues-
      Ross Rosen's Lecture Jan. 12 2009 on Chinese medicine and his upcoming book debunking many western medical myths on health
      http://www.acupunctureandherbalmedicine.com/forms/Ross_Lecture_011209.mp3
      http://chinesepulsediagnosis.blogspot.com/

      <a href ="http://www.fwebtraffic.com/?rid=1254323" target="_blank">Click here to get 1 Million Guaranteed Real Visitors, FREE!</a>

      <a href="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=24700199567" target="_blank"><img src="http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/images/pages/find_us_on_facebook_badge.gif?7:81200" alt="" /></a>

      This email contains confidential information intended for the person(s) to whom it is addressed.  If you should receive this in error please contact us immediately by return mail, or at the above phone number.  Unauthorized  use of this information may be in violation of criminal statutes or HIPAA regulations.  Under no circumstances shall this material be retained, transmitted, or copied by anyone other than the addressee(s).



      --
      William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc
      http://pulsediagnosis.com/
      http://www.aoma.edu/
      http://taaom.org/

      This message, including attachments, contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual(s) named. Any use by others is strictly prohibited. Do not disseminate, distribute or copy this email. Please notify the sender immediately by email if you have received this email by mistake, and delete this email from your system.



      --
      _/I\_
      Ross Rosen, LAc, Dipl OM (NCCAOM)
      Center for Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine
      166 Mountain Ave.
      Westfield, NJ  07090
      (908) 654-4333
      http://www.acupunctureandherbalmedicine.com
      http://rossrosen.blogspot.com
      Ross Rosen's Interview on Blog Talk Tadio http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Larry-Elliott/2008/10/02/Founder-of-Center-for-Acupuncture-Addresses-Root-Causes-of-Health-Issues-
      Ross Rosen's Lecture Jan. 12 2009 on Chinese medicine and his upcoming book debunking many western medical myths on health
      http://www.acupunctureandherbalmedicine.com/forms/Ross_Lecture_011209.mp3
      http://chinesepulsediagnosis.blogspot.com/

      <a href ="http://www.fwebtraffic.com/?rid=1254323" target="_blank">Click here to get 1 Million Guaranteed Real Visitors, FREE!</a>

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      This email contains confidential information intended for the person(s) to whom it is addressed.  If you should receive this in error please contact us immediately by return mail, or at the above phone number.  Unauthorized  use of this information may be in violation of criminal statutes or HIPAA regulations.  Under no circumstances shall this material be retained, transmitted, or copied by anyone other than the addressee(s).
    • William Morris
      Jay... It is in one book...PMPH is the golden cabinet...haven t seen weismans yet. Weisman is the shl to get. W On Jan 31, 2011 4:40 PM, jay bulloch
      Message 34 of 34 , Jan 31, 2011
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        Jay...

        It is in one book...PMPH is the golden cabinet...haven't seen weismans yet. Weisman is the shl to get.

        W

        On Jan 31, 2011 4:40 PM, "jay bulloch" <jaybulloch@...> wrote:

         

        Hey Will


        Is the version you mentioned in three separate volumes? I tried looking this up and there was only one book.

        Redwing has two versions. One by Wiseman and one by Sung Yuk-Ming.

        Anyone have a favorite translation?

        Same goes for the Shang Han Lun.

        J


        To: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
        From: wmorris33@...
        Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 20:37:37 -0600
        Subject: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] Re: Floating Chi position

         
        Thank you Thomas -

        This is one of the most important publications of late. Nothing can beat the Saint of Medicine, the Master. There is another important commentary: Formulas from the Golden Cabinet with Song (Jing Gui Fang Ge Ku) Vol I-III. It is by Chen Xiuyuan and translated by Sabine Wilms. Published by Chinese Medicine Database. It brings an experienced practitioner's commentary to bear upon the works of the Master.

        Warmly,

        Will


        On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 3:20 PM, tomas_aquaqi <tomasrichardson@...> wrote:
         
        To follow up on what Will said regarding yin xu, I just was reading in the Jin Gui Yao Lue and happened to come across this description:
        "The master said: 'A patient with a floating pulse in the front position indicates disease of the exterior; a floating quality in the rear indicates disease of the interior that manifests with lumbar pain, back rigidity, and an inability to walk. There will be shortness of breath and exhaustion." - Chapter 1, line 9; cited from Sung Yuk-Ming's Understanding the Jin Gui Yao Lue: A practical textbook, page 25.

        In the analysis they go on to say: "Floating pulses at the cubit [chi] position also reflect an insufficiency of kidney yin which results in deficient yang floating upward. The cubit pulse reflects the state of kidney, which stores essence and governs bones. Kidney deficiency with failure to nourish essence and marrow manifests with lumar pain, back rigidity and withering of the feet. The kidney also governs qi absorption; severe kidney deficiency leads to shortness of breath and rapid breathing at the slightest exertion, referred to here as 'exhausion'."

        Hope this helps...

        Cheers,
        Thomas


        --- In PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com, William Morris <wmorris33@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Ross -
        >
        > What is your source on this? It sounds like you are discussing the more
        > chronic yang ming pattern of dryness.
        >
        > Wang Shu-he places yang ming in the radial aspect of the middle positions.
        > Zhang Zhong-jing has a flooding pulse for yang ming. As for the middle of
        > the chi position, Wang Shu-he has the hand tai yin. Shen-Hammer has rolling
        > distal from the cun positions for the intestines (left for LI). It sounds to
        > me, however, that you may be making some other reference.
        >
        > Another item we left out is that the floating pulse in the chi position
        > could indicate qi or yin xu.
        >
        > Jorga -
        >
        > It sounds like it is time to discuss specifics of the case. An unexplained
        > pulse leads to further inquiry. So, given the possibilities on the table,
        > are there any features of the case that fit? If not, then a more thorough
        > history is necessary until you understand better what the pulse is
        > communicating.
        >
        > Severe worry and anxiety can cause this pulse shape. If so, then it is
        > certainly an appropriate yin qiao treatment. I like to use Kiiko's K6, K16,
        > 27 and UB2 for yin qiao treatments.
        >
        > W
        >
        > On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Ross Rosen <rossrosen@...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > In addition to all the things that Will mentions, I have also learned and
        > > apply floating pulses in the chi positions to yang ming type issues (cun tai
        > > yang; guan shao yang), but these are very often not just acute pathogenic
        > > invasions, but rather can be long term holding patterns. What kind of
        > > orientation were you using for the patient's hand (ie, palm facing up or
        > > sideways)?
        > >
        > > Ross
        > >
        > > On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 9:35 PM, William Morris <wmorris33@...>wrote:

        > >
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> Hi Jourga -
        > >>
        > >> 1st, the shape you describe is consistent with the Yin Qiao Mai as I
        > >> describe it. If we take it literally from Wang Shu-he and Li Shi-zhen it
        > >> must also be like a bead moving side to side.
        > >>
        > >> The yin qiao is a walker vessel, so I would expect there to be some
        > >> musculoskeletal complaint. Having said that, I would also explore areas of
        > >> shock and trauma (usually physical for the qiaos). I would also explore
        > >> endocrinological function. Kidneys are trans-systemic including the
        > >> hematopoietic system, reproductive system, central nervous system, endocrine
        > >> system and urinary tract. The yin qiao shape can also be present in a person
        > >> who is anxious and overly vigilant (increased adrenaline and noradrenalin).
        > >>
        > >> As for external attack, this is usually assessed in both cun positions.
        > >> That is, unless there is a pathogen that penetrates the lower body through
        > >> some exposure such as injury or otherwise. When external attack takes place,
        > >> the pulse only floats if there is sufficient qi to raise the pulse up. This
        > >> is often not the case. The prime concerns in the advent of the external
        > >> attack are whether the condition is hot, cold or both and whether the
        > >> condition is transforming to the interior.
        > >>
        > >> Warmly,
        > >>
        > >> Will
        > >>
        > >> On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 4:14 AM, Jorga Houy <j_houy@...> wrote:
        > >>
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>> I had a patient today who's pulse was floating bilatterally in the chi
        > >>> position. The position was a bit thready, and present at all three depths
        > >>> and had root. There were no signs or symptoms of exterior pathogen, and no
        > >>> urinary issues.
        > >>> I would love to hear opinions on this.
        > >>>
        > >>> Thanks,
        > >>> Jorga Houy, L.Ac.
        > >>>
        > >>> www.lasportsacupuncture.com
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> --
        > >> William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc
        > >> http://pulsediagnosis.com/
        > >> http://www.aoma.edu/
        > >> http://taaom.org/
        > >>
        > >> This message, including attachments, contains confidential information and
        > >> is intended only for the individual(s) named. Any use by others is strictly
        > >> prohibited. Do not disseminate, distribute or copy this email. Please notify
        > >> the sender immediately by email if you have received this email by mistake,
        > >> and delete this email from your system.
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --
        > > _/I\_
        > > Ross Rosen, LAc, Dipl OM (NCCAOM)
        > > Center for Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine
        > > 166 Mountain Ave.
        > > Westfield, NJ 07090
        > > (908) 654-4333
        > > http://www.acupunctureandherbalmedicine.com
        > > http://rossrosen.blogspot.com
        > > Ross Rosen's Interview on Blog Talk Tadio
        > > http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Larry-Elliott/2008/10/02/Founder-of-Center-for-Acupuncture-Addresses-Root-Causes-of-Health-Issues-
        > > Ross Rosen's Lecture Jan. 12 2009 on Chinese medicine and his upcoming book
        > > debunking many western medical myths on health
        > > http://www.acupunctureandherbalmedicine.com/forms/Ross_Lecture_011209.mp3
        > > http://chinesepulsediagnosis.blogspot.com/
        > >
        > > <a href ="http://www.fwebtraffic.com/?rid=1254323" target="_blank">Click
        > > here to get 1 Million Guaranteed Real Visitors, FREE!</a>
        > >
        > > <a href="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=24700199567"
        > > target="_blank"><img src="
        > > http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/images/pages/find_us_on_facebook_badge.gif?7:81200"
        > > alt="" /></a>
        > >
        > > This email contains confidential information intended for the person(s) to
        > > whom it is addressed. If you should receive this in error please contact us
        > > immediately by return mail, or at the above phone number. Unauthorized use
        > > of this information may be in violation of criminal statutes or HIPAA
        > > regulations. Under no circumstances shall this material be retained,
        > > transmitted, or copied by anyone other than the addressee(s).
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc
        > http://pulsediagnosis.com/
        > http://www.aoma.edu/
        > http://taaom.org/
        >
        > This message, including attachments, contains confidential information and
        > is intended only for the individual(s) named. Any use by others is strictly
        > prohibited. Do not disseminate, distribute or copy this email. Please notify
        > the sender immediately by email if you have received this email by mistake,
        > and delete this email from your system.
        >




        --
        William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc
        http://pulsediagnosis.com/
        http://www.aoma.edu/
        http://taaom.org/

        This message, including attachments, contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual(s) named. Any use by others is strictly prohibited. Do not disseminate, distribute or copy this email. Please notify the sender immediately by email if you have received this email by mistake, and delete this email from your system.

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