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Re: [PulseDiagnosis] where did San Jiao = hormones idea come from?

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  • yehuda frischman
    Dear Will,   Your statement...   I like the geometry of the 6 elements.That work is already represented in theYi Jing and the liu jing (6 channel) 
    Message 1 of 63 , Jan 1, 2011
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      Dear Will,

       

      Your statement...

       

      "I like the geometry of the 6 elements.That work is already represented in the Yi Jing and the liu jing (6 channel)  theoretical models. I am therefore, hesitant to adopt xing (transformation) as a term for 6 divisions."

       

      ...I find intriguing.  Perhaps we need to differentiate between two separate concepts:  Wu Xing as 5 phases of constant tranformation, a process which is ongoing, never stopping, in the many ways that it manifests, internally and externally, and "Elements" (I leave the number open as it really depends on the theoretical system that one is studying) as building blocks.  But now the question arises, does the literature ever speak of actual elements or building blocks.  From what I know the term Liu Jing is used in relationship to the Shang Han Lun.  But there, too, obviously this is a process of transformation in the development of disease, and certainly not elements.

       

      Teachers, please teach me....

       

       

       

      Yehuda L. Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, candidate, DAOM

       
       



      From: William Morris <wmorris33@...>
      To: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tue, December 28, 2010 3:25:43 AM
      Subject: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] where did San Jiao = hormones idea come from?

       

      Thanks Yehuda!

      Taking this discussion a little further, transgressing the historical and cultural bounds, I will take the kidneys as an example. The Chinese organs operate in what I call "trans-systemic" ways. That is, the kidnys in Chinese medicine are inclusive of the endocrine system, hematopoietic system, skeletal system, central nervous system, reproductive system and the urinary tract. These systems have both structure and function. Further, the wide reaching features of the Chinese kidney are not commensurate with the functions of the anatomical kidney in the West. This becomes important for acupuncture, but vital for herbal practice.

      I like the geometry of the 6 elements.That work is already represented in the Yi Jing and the liu jing (6 channel)  theoretical models. I am therefore, hesitant to adopt xing (transformation) as a term for 6 divisions.

      Warmly,

      Will


      On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 1:45 AM, yehuda frischman <rebyidel@...> wrote:
       

      Dear colleagues,
       
      A small but significant asterisk to note:  During a lecture that I heard a couple of months ago by Elizabeth
      Rochat de la Vallee, I was trying to pin her down in terms of defining certain terms that seemed to speak of function and structure, and she made an important observation, that "In the Chinese language we don't have nouns or verbs, nor do we differentiate function from structure."  The profundity of that statement can't be underestimated.  We English speakers who are physicians and students of Chinese medicine  must stop thinking as Westerners as we study Chinese texts, for the intention of the authors of these texts was far broader than we are willing to give them credit for.  Therefore, more directly related to this discussion, it is ludicrous to speak of Chinese organs and Biomedical organs in the same breath.  For when we speak of Chinese organs we also are including their functions as well.  I would suggest that this same paradigm reflects the how we view illness as opposed to Western Physicians:  We look at the broader picture along with functions and relationships in a macro sense, whereas western medicine seeks greater and greater specificity, in a micro sense.   I think that the application of this point to the understanding of Xin Bao, etc is pretty obvious.
       
      respectfully,
       
       
      Yehuda L. Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, candidate, DAOM
       
       



      From: Eric Waltemate <ericwaltemate@...>
      To: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 3:40:32 PM

      Subject: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] where did San Jiao = hormones idea come from?

       

      Steve,
       
      I think you're proving my point.  TCM "organs' and WM "organs" don't have the same function.  "Xin Bao" might be the term for pericardium, but that doesn't mean necessarily that the Hand Jue Yin Channel doesn't treat sexual problems.  As I wrote before, I successfully treated a case of prostatitis by only using Hand Jue Yin and Hand Shao Yang Channels along with Du and Ren.
       
      I cannot comment as to where Professor Worsley got his information which supported his idea that the Hand Jue Yin was the channel responsible for treating sexual problems (along with Foot Shao Yin- but that is another CF), blood circulation, and hormonal problems.  The trajectory, internally, of the Hand Jue Yin channel does travel down into the interior of the abdomen tracing the descending abdominal aorta, the iliac and renal arteries.  Perhaps this is how the "circulation" of "circulation-sex" was named.
       
      I trust Dr. Eckman will clarify this issue.


      --- On Mon, 12/27/10, Steve <Steveacu1@...> wrote:

      From: Steve <Steveacu1@...>
      Subject: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] where did San Jiao = hormones idea come from?
      To: "PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com" <PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Monday, December 27, 2010, 9:16 AM

       
      Eric, we can't compare W Medicine A & P with Asian med. For instance, WMed doesn't even postulate channels, much less the 3 Treasures.  However they do have very clear terminology that means the same for the whole profession. Latin terms have one meaning, as far as I know. 

      Steve S

      Sent from my mobile. 

      On Dec 26, 2010, at 11:31 PM, Eric Waltemate <ericwaltemate@...> wrote:

       
      Right, but "The Spleen" in TCM doesn't do what we know that it does from WM.  The same holds for most of the 12 Officials.

      --- On Sat, 12/18/10, Steve <Steveacu1@...> wrote:

      From: Steve <Steveacu1@...>
      Subject: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] where did San Jiao = hormones idea come from?
      To: "PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com" <PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Saturday, December 18, 2010, 9:23 PM

       
      Honestly, I haven't "researched" it at all. I've only heard of it from Worsley trained folks over the last 28 years. In ANY case, it isn't even in the category of translation of "xin bao."

      Steve

      Sent from my mobile. 

      On Dec 17, 2010, at 7:14 PM, healingmountain@... wrote:

       
      Hi Steve-

      I'm curious about your basis for ascribing the coining of the term "circulation-sex" to Worsley.  I haven't researched the subject fully, but clearly Soulie de Morant prefigured this by calling the deep pulse on the right chi position the pulse of the genital organs (see p. 58 of the English translation of his "Acupuncture").  I have previously documented the lineage from Soulie to Worsley in my book "Footsteps".  It would not surprise me to find that Mary Austin, Dennis Lawson-Wood and others had used this terminology prior to or concurrently with Worsley.  Of course, much of Soulie de Morant's writings were based on his own extensive clinical experience, and could certainly have diverged from any Oriental lineage.  This question needs more careful exploration, but I detect a bit of "Worsley baiting" in your post, and I feel obliged to comment.

      Peter Eckman


      In a message dated 12/16/10 7:29:08 AM, Steveacu1@... writes:


      Just for the information, it was "professor" Worsley who made up calling the Xin Bao-Pericardium, etc the circulation sex meridian.  I don't think it was a translation!



      Steve S







      --
      William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc
      http://pulsediagnosis.com/
      http://www.aoma.edu/
      http://taaom.org/

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    • mystir
      I would have to run it through a translation program. Here s another good site about him.
      Message 63 of 63 , Jan 16, 2011
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        I would have to run it through a translation program. Here's another good site about him.
        http://www.gera.fr/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=4873

        --- On Sun, 1/16/11, yehuda frischman <rebyidel@...> wrote:

        From: yehuda frischman <rebyidel@...>
        Subject: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] where did San Jiao = hormones idea come from?
        To: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, January 16, 2011, 7:30 PM

         

        No, I don't speak Italian, but I know that it's available, as there was a price listed  in Lira.  Anyone on the list speak Italian that can help?
         
        Yehuda L. Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, candidate, DAOM
         
         



        From: "healingmountain@..." <healingmountain@...>
        To: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, January 16, 2011 3:36:38 PM
        Subject: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] where did San Jiao = hormones idea come from?

         

        Yehuda,

        Thanks.  I tried to order it from this website, but I couldn't figure out how to accomplish it.  Do you speak Italian?  I'm not sure if this book is available or not.  Amazon.com also lists it, but has no copies available.  Well, I tried sending them an email, so we'll see what happens.  Thanks again,

        Peter



        In a message dated 1/16/11 2:57:13 PM, rebyidel@... writes:



        Peter,

         

        I found it available on an Italian site:

         

        http://www.hoepli.it/libro/diagnostic-par-les-pouls-radiaux/9782857071006.asp

         

        much success and  blessing,
         

        Yehuda L. Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, candidate, DAOM





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