Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

TCM Pulses - Objective or Subjective?

Expand Messages
  • Phil Rogers
    Hi All, We have been discussing TCM Pulse Diagnosis on other Lists (pa-l@egroups.com & pva-l@egroups.com) and I have run into flak for my views. Some members
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 1, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi All,

      We have been discussing TCM Pulse Diagnosis on other Lists
      (pa-l@egroups.com & pva-l@egroups.com) and I have run into flak for
      my views. Some members on the other Lists maintain that TCM Pulse is
      reliable and objective.

      I'm new to the Pulse List. I am a research vet with an interest in
      complementary med & vet med. I have been studying and using
      acupuncture in humans and animals for >26 years. See my material on
      the WWW, starting from my links, below. I have been interested in
      dowsing / divining / radiesthesia for >27 years. IMO, TCM Pulse
      diagnosis is in the same league as the RAC/VAS Pulses as used in
      Psionic / Radiesthetic Medicine. I use it clinically ONLY when I have
      no other (more objective) clues.

      Have YOU any published references as to whether or not the TCM Pulses
      are Objective or Subjective?

      If Objective, have you references to instruments that can show
      repeatable pulse characteristics (within and between operators) that
      correlate highly with agreed and/or confirmed TCM and/or western
      diagnosis?


      Best regards,
      Phil Rogers MVB, MRCVS
      HOME: 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland
      T: 353-1-6281-222; E-mail: philrogers@...
      Homepage : http://homepage.tinet.ie/~progers/roghome.htm
      AP Links : http://homepage.tinet.ie/~progers/vaplinks.htm
      WORK:Grange Research Centre, Teagasc, Dunsany, Co Meath, Ireland
      T: 353-46-25214; F: 353-46-26154
      TECNOTES: http://www.research.teagasc.ie/grange/tecnotes.htm
    • WMorris116@AOL.COM
      Phil..... I m not sure that a mechanistic approach is the most efficient method of pulse diagnosis study, although it certainly has virtues. If you reflect
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 1, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        Phil.....

        I'm not sure that a mechanistic approach is the most efficient method of
        pulse diagnosis study, although it certainly has virtues. If you reflect back
        through older posts, you'll find some minimal outcome studies on the use of
        divergent channels to modulate the presence of a pulse the
        neuro-psychological position (the notch just distal to the Cun position).
        Those postings also corroborate tender points in the cranial Shao Yang area
        with a positive neuro-psych position.

        Bill....how's that study going with the neuro-psych position? Is it still
        happening?

        Here is a study that shows some promise for this art/science......

        FIVE PHASE PULSE DIAGNOSIS: The Art of Science Or The Science of Art?
        by Andrew Smith MEd BA(Mil) DipAc

        http://www.herbdoctor.com/Research/Pulse2.htm

        Sincerely, Will

        >
        > I'm new to the Pulse List. I am a research vet with an interest in
        > complementary med & vet med. I have been studying and using
        > acupuncture in humans and animals for >26 years. See my material on
        > the WWW, starting from my links, below. I have been interested in
        > dowsing / divining / radiesthesia for >27 years. IMO, TCM Pulse
        > diagnosis is in the same league as the RAC/VAS Pulses as used in
        > Psionic / Radiesthetic Medicine. I use it clinically ONLY when I have
        > no other (more objective) clues.
        >
        > Have YOU any published references as to whether or not the TCM Pulses
        > are Objective or Subjective?
        >
        > If Objective, have you references to instruments that can show
        > repeatable pulse characteristics (within and between operators) that
        > correlate highly with agreed and/or confirmed TCM and/or western
        > diagnosis?
        >
      • Rory Kerr
        ... -- Pulse is one of the four parts of the diagnosis in Chinese medicine. The objective /subjective dichotomy you present betrays a misunderstanding of what
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 2, 2000
        • 0 Attachment
          Phil Rogers wrote:

          >Hi All,
          >
          >We have been discussing TCM Pulse Diagnosis on other Lists
          >(pa-l@egroups.com & pva-l@egroups.com) and I have run into flak for
          >my views. Some members on the other Lists maintain that TCM Pulse is
          >reliable and objective.
          >
          >I'm new to the Pulse List. I am a research vet with an interest in
          >complementary med & vet med. I have been studying and using
          >acupuncture in humans and animals for >26 years. See my material on
          >the WWW, starting from my links, below. I have been interested in
          >dowsing / divining / radiesthesia for >27 years. IMO, TCM Pulse
          >diagnosis is in the same league as the RAC/VAS Pulses as used in
          >Psionic / Radiesthetic Medicine. I use it clinically ONLY when I have
          >no other (more objective) clues.
          >
          >Have YOU any published references as to whether or not the TCM Pulses
          >are Objective or Subjective?
          >
          >If Objective, have you references to instruments that can show
          >repeatable pulse characteristics (within and between operators) that
          >correlate highly with agreed and/or confirmed TCM and/or western
          >diagnosis?
          >
          --

          Pulse is one of the four parts of the diagnosis in Chinese medicine.
          The objective /subjective dichotomy you present betrays a
          misunderstanding of what pulse diagnosis is, and what it is used for;
          the issue is not objectivity, but accuracy. There is consensus, in
          the literature and in direct teaching, about what a bowstring pulse
          feels like; if a bowstring pulse is present, the question then is
          what does that tell us about the pattern of disorder, and once that
          has been decided, what, if anything, should be done to help.

          With regard to "instruments that can show repeatable pulse
          characteristics (within and between operators)...", I frequently
          teach groups of practitioners pulse diagnosis. If ten practitioners
          write down bowstring for a pulse that is bowstring, then that shows
          consensus and accuracy; no instrument is required to confirm the
          consensus, even if one exists that could do so. As it happens, such
          instruments do exist, both in China and in the USA, that can measure
          consistently some of the qualities.

          You go on to say, "...that correlate highly with agreed and/or
          confirmed TCM and/or western diagnosis?" Since most TCM patterns are
          identified by including the pulse, it does not make sense to say that
          the pulse correlates, since it is part of, not separate from, the
          diagnosis. If there is a disagreement between the various parts of
          the diagnosis, then that gives more information about the case, not
          less. Of course, the western diagnosis is beside the point - Chinese
          pulse palpation is not used for biomedical diagnosis, and Chinese
          patterns are not biomedical diseases. However, for the record, the
          knotted quality has a strong correlation to heart failure, the racing
          quality is synonymous with tachycardia, and the flooding quality has
          a strong association with infections causing high fever, all of which
          can be objectively confirmed by instrumentation and lab findings.
        • rasa300@aol.com
          Phil wrote : complementary med & vet med. I have been studying and using ... -- Rory wrote : Pulse is one of the four parts of the diagnosis in Chinese
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 2, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            Phil wrote :

            << >complementary med & vet med. I have been studying and using
            >acupuncture in humans and animals for >26 years. See my material on
            >the WWW, starting from my links, below. I have been interested in
            >dowsing / divining / radiesthesia for >27 years. IMO, TCM Pulse
            >diagnosis is in the same league as the RAC/VAS Pulses as used in
            >Psionic / Radiesthetic Medicine. I use it clinically ONLY when I have
            >no other (more objective) clues.
            >
            >Have YOU any published references as to whether or not the TCM Pulses
            >are Objective or Subjective?
            >
            >If Objective, have you references to instruments that can show
            >repeatable pulse characteristics (within and between operators) that
            >correlate highly with agreed and/or confirmed TCM and/or western
            >diagnosis?
            >
            --
            Rory wrote :
            Pulse is one of the four parts of the diagnosis in Chinese medicine.
            The objective /subjective dichotomy you present betrays a
            misunderstanding of what pulse diagnosis is, and what it is used for;
            the issue is not objectivity, but accuracy. There is consensus, in
            the literature and in direct teaching, about what a bowstring pulse
            feels like; if a bowstring pulse is present, the question then is
            what does that tell us about the pattern of disorder, and once that
            has been decided, what, if anything, should be done to help.
            >>

            Vanessa wrote:
            I totally agree with your comment, and what amazes me is that many in the
            field using acupucnture in medicine has a poor value for the pulse as a
            method of diagnosis and as was mention above " only used when there is no
            other clue" or as he puts Objective whatever that really means.
            The practice of acupuncture has allot to do with the balancing of different
            energies in the meridians, and this important reference is disregarded in the
            name of point cookbook based on symptomalogy for many in the name of
            acupuncture or herbal medicine.
            V
          • Karen S Vaughan
            ... and ... TCM ... Vanessa- I don t think Phil was doubting, but is rather interested in devices that measure pulse qualities objectively, as well as in
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 2, 2000
            • 0 Attachment
              >I have a hard time understading someone practicing acupuncture or herbal

              >medicine and having such a view of one of the main forms of diagnosis
              >and in the same time disregarding this form of diagnosis being accepted
              and
              >used by many incredible masters , professors, doctors ,in the field of
              TCM
              >since time imemorial (thousand of years).

              Vanessa-

              I don't think Phil was doubting, but is rather interested in devices that
              measure pulse qualities objectively, as well as in correlations with
              western biomedicine that make it easier to communicate in integrated
              settings. On the CASA-List we frequently discuss instruments that can
              objectively measure qi- or at least parts of what qi is.

              I have frequently wished there was some sort of device that would let
              someone feel different types of pulse categories and label them.
              Although PCOM teaches pulse diagnosis far more thoroughly than many other
              schools there is still a variety of interpretations of what a pulse is in
              the clinic. (It can be a problem to get a dozen masters to agree on a
              bowstream pulse, and masters are hard to come by out of China).

              There are certain objective correlations- and Phil might try to correlate
              them with cardiology which is the only western biomedicine to make much
              use of pulses beyond the radial.

              Then of course are the observations in the realm of holographic
              intuition. David Winston told me that the Dali Lama's physician read his
              pulse a few years ago and was telling him what happened when David was 7
              years old, getting information from a whole different dimension than
              acupuncturists generally draw from.

              Karen Vaughan
              CreationsGarden@...
              ***************************************
              Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.
              "The unfortunate thing about this world is that the good habits are much
              easier to give up than the bad ones." W. Somerset Maugham



              ________________________________________________________________
              YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
              Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
              Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
              http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
            • Kevin Power
              ... have ... Pulses ... I thinkthe problem with your question,Phil, is one of phraseology. To ask whether this diagnostic tool is Subjective or Objective is
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 2, 2000
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In PulseDiagnosis@egroups.com, "Phil Rogers" <philrogers@t...>
                wrote:
                > Hi All,
                >
                > We have been discussing TCM Pulse Diagnosis on other Lists
                > (pa-l@egroups.com & pva-l@egroups.com) and I have run into flak for
                > my views. Some members on the other Lists maintain that TCM Pulse is
                > reliable and objective.
                >
                > I'm new to the Pulse List. I am a research vet with an interest in
                > complementary med & vet med. I have been studying and using
                > acupuncture in humans and animals for >26 years. See my material on
                > the WWW, starting from my links, below. I have been interested in
                > dowsing / divining / radiesthesia for >27 years. IMO, TCM Pulse
                > diagnosis is in the same league as the RAC/VAS Pulses as used in
                > Psionic / Radiesthetic Medicine. I use it clinically ONLY when I
                have
                > no other (more objective) clues.
                >
                > Have YOU any published references as to whether or not the TCM
                Pulses
                > are Objective or Subjective?
                >
                > If Objective, have you references to instruments that can show
                > repeatable pulse characteristics (within and between operators) that
                > correlate highly with agreed and/or confirmed TCM and/or western
                > diagnosis?
                >
                >
                >
                I thinkthe problem with your question,Phil, is one of phraseology. To
                ask whether this diagnostic tool is Subjective or Objective is being
                naive or confrontational, and I know from your postings on the other
                lists that you are neither.
                I presume - correct me if I'm wrong - that you were asking for data
                re. TCM pulse diagnosis from a heuristic Western scientific
                perspective.
                Such information, as you of course know, doesn't 'Objectify' pulse
                diagnosis or confirm/deny its efficacy as a diagnostic tool.
                Personally, I feel my hair bristle when I suspect someone ia asking
                conventional science to pronounce on the reality or validity of TCM .
                For me, pulse-taking is my main (and often primary) diagnostic
                technique. I have become competent in its use through hard study and
                practice under various teachers. It was not the result of developing
                some innate psychic or intuitive ability. This learning process is
                repeated thousands of time daily around the world; precise information
                is passed from one individual to another. This information is then
                applied in very precise and highly defined ways. This, plus its
                effectiveness in clinical practice qualifies it as one of the most
                'Objective' phenomena I know of.

                Kevin.
              • Joseph Balensi
                Hi Pulse Group, In OM school I learned seven pulse systems although I only remember two of them. It s fascinating to me that these systems all produced
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 3, 2000
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Pulse Group,
                   
                  In OM school I learned seven pulse systems although I only remember two of them.  It's fascinating
                  to me that these systems all produced clinically useful information and thus survived for so long.  But
                  three are many differences in which part reflects what.  The reasoning which I use to resolve this so-called
                  paradox is that context is extremely important to accuracy/usefulness.  If I use the Five Element pulse
                  system Ishould limit my consideration of patient data to the Five Element model.  If after that it's appropriate
                  to also process the data through the Eight Principles model the pulse data should be interpreted according
                  to tthe Eight Principles pulse system.
                   
                  Perhaps someone else can identify the philosphers who developed the idea that we cannot perceive  and
                  therefore can't know the full nature of reality because there are things which occur beyond our ability to sense them. Even if we had the ability to perceive those things we don't have the capacity to perceive all of the goings-on of the 'ten thousand things'.   Because our sensory devices are finite our perceptions are finite.  Our models of reality are based on data our senses have been able to gather and are therefore limited.  The models are 
                  incomplete and differ in their components but this doens't mean that one is right and the others wrong. 
                   
                  Dr Paul Ehrlich (Zero Population Growth) was on the radio yesterday.  Among other things he said "Science
                  doesn't give us the truth.  It moves us away from ignorance."
                   
                  JOE
                   
                  Contemporary China
                  LEFT    Cun        Guan         Chi            RIGHT    Cun        Guan       Chi
                  Super    Per        LiV            BL SI                       LI Chest    SP       SJ LI        
                  Deep     HT        GB            KD                           LU           ST        Mingmen
                   
                  Zhang Jie Bing 1600 CE
                  LEFT    Cun        Guan         Chi            RIGHT    Cun        Guan       Chi
                  Super    PeR        LiV             LI BL                      Chest       SP         SJ SI
                  Deep     HT         GB             KD                         LU            ST         KD
                   
                  Eight Principles  1700 CE
                  LEFT    Cun        Guan         Chi            RIGHT    Cun        Guan       Chi
                  Super    HT          LiV            x                            LU          SP            x
                  Deep     x            GB          KD Yin                       x          ST          KD Yang
                   
                  5 Elements  200 CE
                  LEFT    Cun        Guan         Chi            RIGHT    Cun        Guan       Chi
                  Super    SI            LiV           BL                          LI            SP        SJ   
                  Deep     HT           GB           KD                          LU           ST        PeR
                   
                  Nei Jing  500 BCE
                  LEFT    Cun        Guan         Chi            RIGHT    Cun        Guan       Chi
                  Super   sternum  diaphragm  abdomen                chest         ST      abdomen 
                  Deep    heart       liver           kidney                    lungs         SP        kidney          
                   
                  Pulse Classic  200 CE
                  LEFT    Cun        Guan         Chi            RIGHT    Cun        Guan       Chi
                  Super    SI          GB            SI BL                       LI            ST          SJ
                  Deep     HT         LIV            KD                           LU          SP        Mingmen
                   
                  Li  Shi Zhen
                  LEFT    Cun        Guan         Chi            RIGHT    Cun        Guan       Chi
                              HT           LiV     Mingmen BL KD             LU           SP      Mingmen                                          
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.