Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Circulation of Wei Qi (Defensive Qi)

Expand Messages
  • martyeisen
    What is the exact flow through the yang channels. Is it UB, SI, TH, GB, CO, ST? It flows 25 times in a 12 hour day period. How long does it spend in a Yang
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 3, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      What is the exact flow through the yang channels.

      Is it UB, SI, TH, GB, CO, ST?

      It flows 25 times in a 12 hour day period. How long does it spend in a
      Yang channel and the Yin channels?
    • William Morris
      Hi Marty - The movement of daytime *wei qi* is found in *The Spiritual Influence Pivot*( *Ling Shu*): During the daytime, the defensive *qi* moves from the
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 4, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Marty -

        The movement of daytime wei qi is found in The Spiritual Influence Pivot (Ling Shu): "During the daytime, the defensive qi moves from the tai yang to the shao yang to the yang ming and then returns through the yin."1 This flow of wei qi is like a cascade from the eyes to the toes. The return through the yin takes place through any of the yin channels, including the yin walker vessel (yin qiao mai).

        The discussion is primarily in the context of the six channel theory rather than the twelve channel theory. The length of day and night is variable. Young Wei-jieh approaches the problem by averaging 25 circles in the day and the night a whole day is 50 times. I calculate it at 29 minutes and 10 seconds with 1440 minutes in a day divided by 50.  However, as a practical matter, I round off to a 1/2 hour. This is one of the theories behind the 1/2 long needle retention method.

        Will




        On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 2:55 PM, martyeisen <martyeisen@...> wrote:

        What is the exact flow through the yang channels.

        Is it UB, SI, TH, GB, CO, ST?

        It flows 25 times in a 12 hour day period. How long does it spend in a
        Yang channel and the Yin channels?




        William R. Morris, DAOM, MSEd, LAc
        http://theccrt.com/
        http://www.aoma.edu/
        http://www.pulsediagnosis.com/

        When individuals come together with a shared intention, in a conducive environment, something mysterious can come into being, with capacities and intelligences that far transcend those of the individuals involved.
      • martyeisen
        Thanks for the information. However, the exact nature of the flow through the Yang channels is still not clear. How does it flow through UB, SI, TH, GB, CO,
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 7, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks for the information. However, the exact nature of the flow
          through the Yang channels is still not clear.

          How does it flow through
          UB, SI, TH, GB, CO, ST?

          What is the order of flow and how long does it flow in each of the
          above channels?

          How long does it stay in each Yin channel?
        • William Morris
          Marty - The Ling Shu does not specify the details you are seeking. It likely is a vestige from six channel thinking. My impression is that the return of *wei
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 7, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Marty -

            The Ling Shu does not specify the details you are seeking. It likely is a vestige from six channel thinking.  My impression is that the return of wei qi is through all yin channels at once, similarly it flows through the tai yang, shao yang and yang ming in sequence but: both in the leg and arm at the same time. Thus , for each of these four sections, it is in the channel for 28.8 minutes at the equinox.

            W

            On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 4:11 PM, martyeisen <martyeisen@...> wrote:


            Thanks for the information. However, the exact nature of the flow
            through the Yang channels is still not clear.

            How does it flow through


            UB, SI, TH, GB, CO, ST?

            What is the order of flow and how long does it flow in each of the
            above channels?

            How long does it stay in each Yin channel?




            --
            Warmly,

            Will


            William R. Morris, DAOM, MSEd, LAc
            http://theccrt.com/
            http://www.aoma.edu/
            http://www.pulsediagnosis.com/

            When individuals come together with a shared intention, in a conducive environment, something mysterious can come into being, with capacities and intelligences that far transcend those of the individuals involved.
          • Marco Visconti
            In my experience, I suppose that when we talk of Qi we are alwais talking of Wei Qi. And when we talk abaut wei qi circulation, we are aware that it circulate
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 15, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              In my experience, I suppose that when we talk of Qi we are alwais talking of Wei Qi.
              And when we talk abaut wei qi circulation, we are aware that it circulate daytime outside the body, and nigttime inside the body.
               
               
              Marvi

              --------------------------------
              The Ling Shu does not specify the details you are seeking. It likely is a vestige from six channel thinking.  My impression is that the return of wei qi is through all yin channels at once, similarly it flows through the tai yang, shao yang and yang ming in sequence but: both in the leg and arm at the same time. Thus , for each of these four sections, it is in the channel for 28.8 minutes at the equinox.
              ----------------------------


              On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 4:11 PM, martyeisen <martyeisen@...> wrote:


              Thanks for the information. However, the exact nature of the flow
              through the Yang channels is still not clear.

              How does it flow through


              UB, SI, TH, GB, CO, ST?

              What is the order of flow and how long does it flow in each of the
              above channels?

              How long does it stay in each Yin channel?




            • Are Thoresen
              Does Qi really circulate as such, or is it more like a change in the activity of the Qi, and that this gives the illusion that it circulates ?? Are Are
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 16, 2008
              • 0 Attachment

                Does Qi really circulate as such, or is it more like a change in the activity of the Qi, and that this gives the illusion that it circulates ??

                 

                Are

                 

                Are Thoresen

                Tinghaugveien 435

                Gisleröd Gård

                N-3175 Ramnes

                telefon 33397930

                 

                arethore@...

                are@...

                 

                http://www.sanare.no

                http://www.sanare.no/naturmedisin

                 

                 

                 


                Fra: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com] På vegne av Marco Visconti
                Sendt: 15. juni 2008 21:36
                Til: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
                Emne: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] Re: Circulation of Wei Qi (Defensive Qi)

                 

                In my experience, I suppose that when we talk of Qi we are alwais talking of Wei Qi.

                And when we talk abaut wei qi circulation, we are aware that it circulate daytime outside the body, and nigttime inside the body.

                 

                 

                Marvi


                ------------ --------- --------- --
                The Ling Shu does not specify the details you are seeking. It likely is a vestige from six channel thinking.  My impression is that the return of wei qi is through all yin channels at once, similarly it flows through the tai yang, shao yang and yang ming in sequence but: both in the leg and arm at the same time. Thus , for each of these four sections, it is in the channel for 28.8 minutes at the equinox.
                ------------ --------- -------

                On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 4:11 PM, martyeisen <martyeisen@aol. com> wrote:


                Thanks for the information. However, the exact nature of the flow
                through the Yang channels is still not clear.

                How does it flow through


                UB, SI, TH, GB, CO, ST?

                What is the order of flow and how long does it flow in each of the
                above channels?

                How long does it stay in each Yin channel?

                ._,___

              • Marco Visconti
                Qi Flow is a dinamic matter, we can see it as a change in activity in the time dominium or in the sense of circulation, alwais in the time dominium.
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 16, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Qi Flow is a dinamic matter, we can see it as a change in activity in the time dominium or in the sense of circulation, alwais in the time dominium.
                   
                  Didactically is more useful to gaze at the Qi movement as a circulation, because its dinamic action is importatnt to mantain fisiology and for the battle against patogenic factors.
                   
                  But practically the sintomatology of Qi slowed down flow is sintomatic of what Qi is doing (or not doing) in that dominions and what to do to accelerate the flow (or the activity?).
                   
                  and we can read this informations also in the pulse.
                   
                   
                  Marvi
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 4:10 PM
                  Subject: SV: [PulseDiagnosis] Re: Circulation of Wei Qi (Defensive Qi)

                  Does Qi really circulate as such, or is it more like a change in the activity of the Qi, and that this gives the illusion that it circulates ??

                   

                  Are

                   

                   

                  In my experience, I suppose that when we talk of Qi we are alwais talking of Wei Qi.

                  And when we talk abaut wei qi circulation, we are aware that it circulate daytime outside the body, and nigttime inside the body.

                   

                   

                  Marvi


                  ------------ --------- --------- --
                  The Ling Shu does not specify the details you are seeking. It likely is a vestige from six channel thinking.  My impression is that the return of wei qi is through all yin channels at once, similarly it flows through the tai yang, shao yang and yang ming in sequence but: both in the leg and arm at the same time. Thus , for each of these four sections, it is in the channel for 28.8 minutes at the equinox.
                  ------------ --------- -------

                  On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 4:11 PM, martyeisen <martyeisen@aol. com> wrote:


                  Thanks for the information. However, the exact nature of the flow
                  through the Yang channels is still not clear.

                  How does it flow through


                  UB, SI, TH, GB, CO, ST?

                  What is the order of flow and how long does it flow in each of the
                  above channels?

                  How long does it stay in each Yin channel?

                  ._,___





                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                  Checked by AVG.
                  Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 16/06/2008 7.20
                • Joe
                  Hi Marty, While the Ling Shu suggests the wei qi cascades through the yang organs: tai yang, shao yang, yang ming, Difficulty Fifty-Four from the Nan Jing
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 17, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Marty,

                    While the Ling Shu suggests the wei qi cascades through the yang
                    organs: tai yang, shao yang, yang ming, Difficulty Fifty-Four from
                    the Nan Jing describes, "visceral, (yin) disease are hard to treat
                    because they transmit to where or what they overcome, (control
                    cycle). Bowel, (yang) diseases are easy to treat because they
                    transmit to their child, (generation cycle)."

                    The implication being that qi and marauding "evils" travel through
                    yin and yang organs via the generation and control cycles
                    respectively.

                    While it is unclear if this description relates to wei qi
                    specifically--- qi is described as traveling through the yang organs
                    via the generation cycle: Ub, Gb, Si, St, Li.

                    In Health,
                    Joe


                    --- In PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com, "martyeisen" <martyeisen@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > What is the exact flow through the yang channels.
                    >
                    > Is it UB, SI, TH, GB, CO, ST?
                    >
                    > It flows 25 times in a 12 hour day period. How long does it spend
                    in a
                    > Yang channel and the Yin channels?
                    >



                    --- In PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com, "martyeisen" <martyeisen@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks for the information. However, the exact nature of the flow
                    > through the Yang channels is still not clear.
                    >
                    > How does it flow through
                    > UB, SI, TH, GB, CO, ST?
                    >
                    > What is the order of flow and how long does it flow in each of the
                    > above channels?
                    >
                    > How long does it stay in each Yin channel?
                    >
                  • Joseph Adams
                    Hi David, Chapter 53 & 54 both describe pathogen flow, but they differ greatly in the way in which this plays out. regarding Chapter 54, Hsu Ta Ch un
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 17, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi David,
                      Chapter 53 & 54  both describe pathogen flow, but they differ greatly in the way in which this plays out. regarding Chapter 54, Hsu Ta Ch'un comments, "This paragraph certainly does not agree with the Nei Jing; also, it contradicts the preceding  paragraph."
                       
                      53 suggests that yin organs are subject to both control and generation cycles, where 54 maintains that yin and yang organs are relegated to control and generation cycles exclusively. For me, viewing these paragraphs together brings up more questions than answers.
                       
                      Clearly though, we agree that Chapter 76 describes wei qi  flow through the six channels---but it also describes night time wei qi flowing through the yin organs along the control cycle.
                      The prescribed movement of evil pathogens through the yin organs as outlined in  the Nan Jing matches the way in which wei qi flows through the yin organs in the Nei Jing. It's my hypotheses that much in the same way, wei qi flows through the yang organs along the generating cycle.  
                       
                      As I'm sure you have experienced, sometimes in extrapolating theories from classical literature for clinical use, decisions have to be made about how to mix and match, not only from differing texts, but even from paragraph to paragraph.
                       
                      In addition to control cycle assessment of the yin organs, (Per Will's Neoclassical teaching), I  have been assessing  yang organs via the generation cycle experimentally and have found it similarly efficacious.
                       
                      In Health,
                      Joe
                       
                       
                       
                       

                      flyingstarsfengshui <flyingstarsfengshui@...> wrote:
                      I believe Nan Ching 53 and 54 need to be viewed together, as they talk
                      about both five phase cycles and the severity of when a pathogen is
                      transmitted in each cycle.

                      But these are not so much about Wei Qi flow but pathogen flow from
                      internal organs and not channels. More organ than channel (imho)

                      Channel flow varies, primary channels of meridian clock and as
                      mentioned before Tendo Channel flow beginning with Bladder and then
                      Six stages for legs then arms. E

                      regards,

                      david
                      www.healingqi. com

                      --- In PulseDiagnosis@ yahoogroups. com, "Joe" <qimoves@... > wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Marty,
                      >
                      > While the Ling Shu suggests the wei qi cascades through the yang
                      > organs: tai yang, shao yang, yang ming, Difficulty Fifty-Four from
                      > the Nan Jing describes, "visceral, (yin) disease are hard to treat
                      > because they transmit to where or what they overcome, (control
                      > cycle). Bowel, (yang) diseases are easy to treat because they
                      > transmit to their child, (generation cycle)."
                      >
                      > The implication being that qi and marauding "evils" travel through
                      > yin and yang organs via the generation and control cycles
                      > respectively.
                      >
                      > While it is unclear if this description relates to wei qi
                      > specifically- -- qi is described as traveling through the yang organs
                      > via the generation cycle: Ub, Gb, Si, St, Li.
                      >
                      > In Health,
                      > Joe
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In PulseDiagnosis@ yahoogroups. com, "martyeisen" <martyeisen@ >
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > What is the exact flow through the yang channels.
                      > >
                      > > Is it UB, SI, TH, GB, CO, ST?
                      > >
                      > > It flows 25 times in a 12 hour day period. How long does it spend
                      > in a
                      > > Yang channel and the Yin channels?
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In PulseDiagnosis@ yahoogroups. com, "martyeisen" <martyeisen@ >
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for the information. However, the exact nature of the flow
                      > > through the Yang channels is still not clear.
                      > >
                      > > How does it flow through
                      > > UB, SI, TH, GB, CO, ST?
                      > >
                      > > What is the order of flow and how long does it flow in each of the
                      > > above channels?
                      > >
                      > > How long does it stay in each Yin channel?
                      > >
                      >


                    • William Morris
                      Are and All - Good to hear from you, this is a fascinating discussion. I suppose we could ask whether the linguistic process for describing reality, whether
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 19, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Are and All -

                        Good to hear from you, this is a fascinating discussion. I suppose we
                        could ask whether the linguistic process for describing reality,
                        whether metaphors of irrigation that we use in channel theory have any
                        greater or lesser illusion than contemporary technology and war. In
                        any regard, it appears that we agree that the map is not the
                        territory.

                        That said, we are discussing biological cycles that are part of whole
                        systems. As an eco--psycho-social phenomena, the nutrient qi is a
                        twelve fold diurnal cycle. The twelve channels are an arbitrary
                        division of the cutaneous regions. The corresponding six channel
                        system involves the anterior, posterior and sagital planes. Anterior
                        is Lu-LI-Sp-St, posterior is the Ht-SI-UB-K, sagital is Pc-SJ-GB-Lr.
                        The connection between these channels and the diurnal cycle provides a
                        systematic view of the movement of nutrient qi. This could be a
                        complete fallacy.

                        However, I am a pragmatist. When under the correct circumstances -
                        symptoms that have a tempo of the movement of nutrient qi (every two
                        hours or so) -I choose to evaluate and treat along the lines of this
                        particular world view, I am often met with clinical success. When I am
                        not, I abandon that view and select another that may help me identify
                        an effective course of action.

                        According to Morin, "Everything we know is subject to error and
                        illusion." (Morin, 2001 pp5) The nature of errors may be mental,
                        intellectual, reason, blinding by paradigms, imprints and
                        normalization, noology and possession, the unexpected and uncertainty.
                        I will classify the organization of qi movement in the channels
                        whether it is slow jing, yuan qi or nutrient and protective qi each
                        with different tempos of change as pertinent knowledge. This pertinent
                        knowledge involves a way of learning that is able to grasp "general,
                        fundamental problems and insert partial, circumscribed knowledge
                        within them." (Morin pp12) We need "methods of grasping mutual
                        relations and reciprocal influences between parts and the whole in a
                        complex world."

                        I think that your question about an 'illusion of circulation' engages
                        a necessary uncertainty into our dialogues.

                        Morin, E. (2001). Seven Lessons in Complex Education for the Future.
                        Paris: UNESCO.


                        Warmly,

                        Will

                        On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Are Thoresen <arethore@...> wrote:
                        > Does Qi really circulate as such, or is it more like a change in the
                        > activity of the Qi, and that this gives the illusion that it circulates ??
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Are
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Are Thoresen
                        >
                        > Tinghaugveien 435
                        >
                        > Gisleröd Gård
                        >
                        > N-3175 Ramnes
                        >
                        > telefon 33397930
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > arethore@...
                        >
                        > are@...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > http://www.sanare.no
                        >
                        > http://www.sanare.no/naturmedisin
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        >
                        > Fra: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com]
                        > På vegne av Marco Visconti
                        > Sendt: 15. juni 2008 21:36
                        > Til: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
                        > Emne: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] Re: Circulation of Wei Qi (Defensive Qi)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > In my experience, I suppose that when we talk of Qi we are alwais talking of
                        > Wei Qi.
                        >
                        > And when we talk abaut wei qi circulation, we are aware that it circulate
                        > daytime outside the body, and nigttime inside the body.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Marvi
                        >
                        > --------------------------------
                        > The Ling Shu does not specify the details you are seeking. It likely is a
                        > vestige from six channel thinking. My impression is that the return of wei
                        > qi is through all yin channels at once, similarly it flows through the tai
                        > yang, shao yang and yang ming in sequence but: both in the leg and arm at
                        > the same time. Thus , for each of these four sections, it is in the channel
                        > for 28.8 minutes at the equinox.
                        > ----------------------------
                        >
                        > On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 4:11 PM, martyeisen <martyeisen@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks for the information. However, the exact nature of the flow
                        > through the Yang channels is still not clear.
                        >
                        > How does it flow through
                        >
                        > UB, SI, TH, GB, CO, ST?
                        >
                        > What is the order of flow and how long does it flow in each of the
                        > above channels?
                        >
                        > How long does it stay in each Yin channel?
                        >
                        > ._,___
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        Warmly,

                        Will


                        William R. Morris, DAOM, MSEd, LAc
                        http://theccrt.com/
                        http://www.aoma.edu/
                        http://www.pulsediagnosis.com/

                        When individuals come together with a shared intention, in a conducive
                        environment, something mysterious can come into being, with capacities
                        and intelligences that far transcend those of the individuals
                        involved.
                      • Steveacu1@AOL.com
                        Another perspective about the movement of qi and whether or not it is real , could be seen from the action of water and waves. We think, based on our visual
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 20, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Another perspective about the movement of qi and whether or not it is "real", could be seen from the action of water and waves.  We think, based on our visual perception that the waves have a structure or inherent reality of water, but according to physics, the water doesn't move in waves, it's just moving in place.  Go figure!  ( I may not have described this well, but the description is close to accurate.  I am not a physicist or hydrologist.  Even though, much of what we do in acup. could be described in those terms.)

                          Steve Schachter

                          In a message dated 6/19/08 6:46:55 PM, wmorris33@... writes:


                          Are and All -

                          Good to hear from you, this is a fascinating discussion. I suppose we
                          could ask whether the linguistic process for describing reality,
                          whether metaphors of irrigation that we use in channel theory have any
                          greater or lesser illusion than contemporary technology and war. In
                          any regard, it appears that we agree that the map is not the
                          territory.

                          That said, we are discussing biological cycles that are part of whole
                          systems. As an eco--psycho- systems. As an eco--psycho-<wbr>socia
                          twelve fold diurnal cycle. The twelve channels are an arbitrary
                          division of the cutaneous regions. The corresponding six channel
                          system involves the anterior, posterior and sagital planes. Anterior
                          is Lu-LI-Sp-St, posterior is the Ht-SI-UB-K, sagital is Pc-SJ-GB-Lr.
                          The connection between these channels and the diurnal cycle provides a
                          systematic view of the movement of nutrient qi. This could be a
                          complete fallacy.

                          However, I am a pragmatist. When under the correct circumstances -
                          symptoms that have a tempo of the movement of nutrient qi (every two
                          hours or so) -I choose to evaluate and treat along the lines of this
                          particular world view, I am often met with clinical success. When I am
                          not, I abandon that view and select another that may help me identify
                          an effective course of action.

                          According to Morin, "Everything we know is subject to error and
                          illusion." (Morin, 2001 pp5) The nature of errors may be mental,
                          intellectual, reason, blinding by paradigms, imprints and
                          normalization, noology and possession, the unexpected and uncertainty.
                          I will classify the organization of qi movement in the channels
                          whether it is slow jing, yuan qi or nutrient and protective qi each
                          with different tempos of change as pertinent knowledge. This pertinent
                          knowledge involves a way of learning that is able to grasp "general,
                          fundamental problems and insert partial, circumscribed knowledge
                          within them." (Morin pp12) We need "methods of grasping mutual
                          relations and reciprocal influences between parts and the whole in a
                          complex world."

                          I think that your question about an 'illusion of circulation' engages
                          a necessary uncertainty into our dialogues.

                          Morin, E. (2001). Seven Lessons in Complex Education for the Future.
                          Paris: UNESCO.

                          Warmly,

                          Will

                          On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Are Thoresen <
                          arethore@...> wrote:
                          > Does Qi really circulate as such, or is it more like a change in the
                          > activity of the Qi, and that this gives the illusion that it circulates ??
                          >





                          **************
                          Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
                          (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
                        • William Morris
                          Hi Steve - This is an interesting point. What we do see in the wave is a difference. In terms of an aesthetic of judgment, we can decide that there are either
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jun 20, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Steve -

                            This is an interesting point. What we do see in the wave is a
                            difference. In terms of an aesthetic of judgment, we can decide that
                            there are either no facts in nature, or there are an infinite number
                            of potential facts. In the objective world there are only forces and
                            impacts. While in the subjective world there are differences,
                            communication and organization. A difference cannot be localized.
                            There is a difference in the sound of heavy metal music and that of
                            chamber music. But the difference is not in the crunch of a metal
                            guitar power chord or in an exquisitely delicate cello part. The
                            difference cannot be touched. The difference is not in the space
                            between them. The difference is an idea. The subjective world is an
                            explanation that are the communication of ideas that are brought about
                            by differences. There are an infinite number of differences between a
                            superficial and a deep pulse but there are only a few differences that
                            are sufficient to make the difference that we call a deep or a
                            superficial pulse. The basis of collecting information from the pulse
                            – of knowledge building – is the difference which is how biological
                            systems communicate.

                            Warmly,

                            Will

                            On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:30 AM, <Steveacu1@...> wrote:
                            > Another perspective about the movement of qi and whether or not it is
                            > "real", could be seen from the action of water and waves. We think, based
                            > on our visual perception that the waves have a structure or inherent reality
                            > of water, but according to physics, the water doesn't move in waves, it's
                            > just moving in place. Go figure! ( I may not have described this well, but
                            > the description is close to accurate. I am not a physicist or hydl -
                            >
                            > Good to hear from you, this is a fascinating discussion. I suppose we
                            > could ask whether the linguistic process for describing reality,
                            > whether metaphors of irrigation that we use in channel theory have any
                            > greater or lesser illusion than contemporary technology and war. In
                            > any regard, it appears that we agree that the map is not the
                            > territory.
                            >
                            > That said, we are discussing biological cycles that are part of whole
                            > systems. As an eco--psycho- systems. As an eco--psycho-<wbr>socia
                            > twelve fold diurnal cycle. The twelve channels are an arbitrary
                            > division of the cutaneous regions. The corresponding six channel
                            > system involves the anterior, posterior and sagital planes. Anterior
                            > is Lu-LI-Sp-St, posterior is the Ht-SI-UB-K, sagital is Pc-SJ-GB-Lr.
                            > The connection between these channels and the diurnal cycle provides a
                            > systematic view of the movement of nutrient qi. This could be a
                            > complete fallacy.
                            >
                            > However, I am a pragmatist. When under the correct circumstances -
                            > symptoms that have a tempo of the movement of nutrient qi (every two
                            > hours or so) -I choose to evaluate and treat along the lines of this
                            > particular world view, I am often met with clinical success. When I am
                            > not, I abandon that view and select another that may help me identify
                            > an effective course of action.
                            >
                            > According to Morin, "Everything we know is subject to error and
                            > illusion." (Morin, 2001 pp5) The nature of errors may be mental,
                            > intellectual, reason, blinding by paradigms, imprints and
                            > normalization, noology and possession, the unexpected and uncertainty.
                            > I will classify the organization of qi movement in the channels
                            > whether it is slow jing, yuan qi or nutrient and protective qi each
                            > with different tempos of change as pertinent knowledge. This pertinent
                            > knowledge involves a way of learning that is able to grasp "general,
                            > fundamental problems and insert partial, circumscribed knowledge
                            > within them." (Morin pp12) We need "methods of grasping mutual
                            > relations and reciprocal influences between parts and the whole in a
                            > complex world."
                            >
                            > I think that your question about an 'illusion of circulation' engages
                            > a necessary uncertainty into our dialogues.
                            >
                            > Morin, E. (2001). Seven Lessons in Complex Education for the Future.
                            > Paris: UNESCO.
                            >
                            > Warmly,
                            >
                            > Will
                            >
                            > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Are Thoresen <
                            > arethore@...> wrote:
                            >> Does Qi really circulate as such, or is it more like a change in the
                            >> activity of the Qi, and that this gives the illusion that it circulates ??
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > **************
                            > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
                            > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
                            >
                            >



                            --
                            Warmly,

                            Will


                            William R. Morris, DAOM, MSEd, LAc
                            http://theccrt.com/
                            http://www.aoma.edu/
                            http://www.pulsediagnosis.com/

                            When individuals come together with a shared intention, in a conducive
                            environment, something mysterious can come into being, with capacities
                            and intelligences that far transcend those of the individuals
                            involved.
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.