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Re: [PulseDiagnosis] pulse quality at Left Middle Position

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  • Ross Rosen
    Hi, Just an aside to the question that was raised and more specifically the response, I just wanted to clarify that Blood Unclear is a completely separate
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 1, 2008
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      Hi,
      Just an aside to the question that was raised and more specifically the response, I just wanted to clarify that Blood Unclear is a completely separate event from Blood Heat and Blood Thick.  Blood Unclear represents toxicity in this system and usually supersedes a finding on the pulse of Blood Heat or Blood Thick. 

      The question of which quality Louis is feeling is interesting as he describes it as having a marked decrease in amplitude at this depth.  Often with the Blood Heat and Thick it feels as if the amplitude increases as one moves upwards through the depths.  Does the movement "through a sieve" feel like slippery, perhaps combined with a Blood Unclear?

      Ross

      On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Joseph Adams <qimoves@...> wrote:

      Hi Louis,
      Contemplating this pulse, it occurs that a combination of blood unclear, (beginning stage blood heat) and hyperlipidemia might be at play here---The other possibility is plain ole liver blood vacuity. What is the chief complaint, signs and symptoms of your patient? With palpation was there tenderness/tightness in the sub-costal region? Any other salient features to the pulse?
      In Health,
      Joe

      Louis Womack <tolvmanne@...> wrote:
      Hi, my name is Louis and this is my first post. I´ve felt a quality at the Left Middle position
      moving towards the diaphragm which I would describe as a squirting sensation, as if the
      impulse at Blood depth has been forced through a sieve and broken up into thin rivulets of
      blood. No rivulet is more pronounced than any other and if anything the width here is wider.
      The sensation is also that the pulse amplitude is significantly reduced as it passes through
      this area. There is no choppy quality. Does this sound familiar to anyone and what would be
      the interpretation?

      Louis Womack





      --
      _/I\_
      Ross Rosen, LAc, CA, Dipl OM (NCCAOM)
      Center for Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine
      166 Mountain Ave.
      Westfield, NJ 07090
      (908) 654-4333
      http://www.acupunctureandherbalmedicine.com
      http://rossrosen.blogspot.com
      http://rangnangogminling.blogspot.com


      This email contains confidential information intended for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. If you should receive this in error please contact us immediately by return mail, or at the above phone number. Unauthorized use of this information may be in violation of criminal statutes or HIPAA regulations. Under no circumstances shall this material be retained, transmitted, or copied by anyone other than the addressee(s).
    • Brandt Stickley
      Louis, I would not take great exception to Joe s comments, except that Blood Unclear is not typically described as beginning stages of Blood Heat in
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 1, 2008
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        Louis,

        I would not take great exception to Joe's comments,
        except that Blood Unclear is not typically described
        as beginning stages of Blood Heat in Contemporary
        Chinese Pulse Diagnosis (CCPD) as it is continuing to
        be taught by Dr. Hammer. Rather it is associated with
        a few scenarios: toxicity due to environmental
        chemicals, Liver Qi stagnation or deficiency
        inhibiting the detoxifying function of the Liver, and
        a similar breakdown of Spleen function. Far and away,
        though the toxicity is most common. We also
        associated Choppy qualities in the LMP and esepcially
        on the First Impressions with exposure to chemical
        toxins.

        Given what you describe as its width, certainly
        considering the wide qualities like Blood Unclear,
        Blood Heat, and Blood Thick is warranted. The latter
        two are associated with Blood Heat and hyperlipidemia
        as Joe suggests.

        Another consideration is that we define the Slippery
        quality by its "squirting" in one direction, and it
        amy be that these two sensations combine to give you
        the sensation as you described it. One of the
        strengths of the system, however, is that we can parse
        out these sensations and actually learn more details
        by so doing.

        Thanks for an interesting observation, and keep
        trusting what you feel!

        Sincerely,

        Brandt


        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
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      • William Morris
        Dear Brandt, Louis and Joe - I am sensitive to pursuing what is a fascinating discussion with mutual collegial respect. These types of dialogue have great
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 2, 2008
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          Dear Brandt, Louis and Joe -

          I am sensitive to pursuing what is a fascinating discussion with mutual collegial respect. These types of dialogue have great potential for richness and expansion of our understandings in these areas.

          The notion of chemical toxicity as the primary meaning assigned to the blood unclear pulse has been given by Shen-Hammer. However, I do have a different experience that can be explained vis a vis Liu Wansu's theory of heat transformations, which in essence is: all pathogens turn to heat.

          Many possible conditions are associated with the blood unclear finding, and some can progress from a blood unclear state to a blood heat state - especially that of liver qi. Chemical toxicities, less so and in my experience, the heavy metal loads tend not to do a heat transformation. Further, leaky gut syndrome which has been a model for care since Li Dong Yuan's earth school is important, Dr. Hammer discusses polypeptides crossing a compromised gut barrier system and presenting with a blood unclear pulse as the antigen responses are now in the blood stream. This is a very common condition and is often correlated with the palpation of a blood unclear pulse (the pulse gets slightly wider when using the lifting method through the blood depth). The spleen qi depleted state allows damp to collect below which transforms into heat then rises upward harassing the channels. This is the classic bu zhong yi qi tang scenario.

          However, this is all speculative. Without the case details, we cannot draw correlative lines between the real events and our constructions about what we palpate. So Louis, you state that there is a: "squirting sensation, as if the impulse at Blood depth has been forced through a sieve and broken up into thin rivulets of blood. No rivulet is more pronounced than any other and if anything the width here is wider." This sounds like multiple streams and slipperiness is certainly a consideration, but also some lesion on the vascular wall should be considered.

          Further, what you describe is a rather strange phenomena that is rather inconsistent with the descriptions in this group's expanded pulse lexicon. When such sensations are discovered, the important activity is the increased inquiry into understanding what features of the case, either now or in the past could lead to such events. Then is also important to report those findings to our communities of interest. So I thank you for doing that here.

          Warmly,

          Will

          On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Brandt Stickley <kbstickley@...> wrote:

          Louis,

          I would not take great exception to Joe's comments,
          except that Blood Unclear is not typically described
          as beginning stages of Blood Heat in Contemporary
          Chinese Pulse Diagnosis (CCPD) as it is continuing to
          be taught by Dr. Hammer. Rather it is associated with
          a few scenarios: toxicity due to environmental
          chemicals, Liver Qi stagnation or deficiency
          inhibiting the detoxifying function of the Liver, and
          a similar breakdown of Spleen function. Far and away,
          though the toxicity is most common. We also
          associated Choppy qualities in the LMP and esepcially
          on the First Impressions with exposure to chemical
          toxins.

          Given what you describe as its width, certainly
          considering the wide qualities like Blood Unclear,
          Blood Heat, and Blood Thick is warranted. The latter
          two are associated with Blood Heat and hyperlipidemia
          as Joe suggests.

          Another consideration is that we define the Slippery
          quality by its "squirting" in one direction, and it
          amy be that these two sensations combine to give you
          the sensation as you described it. One of the
          strengths of the system, however, is that we can parse
          out these sensations and actually learn more details
          by so doing.

          Thanks for an interesting observation, and keep
          trusting what you feel!

          Sincerely,

          Brandt

          __________________________________________________________
          You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
          http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com




          --
          Warmly,

          Will


          William R. Morris, DAOM, MSEd, LAc
          http://theccrt.com/
          http://www.aoma.edu/
          http://www.pulsediagnosis.com/

          When individuals come together with a shared intention, in a conducive environment, something mysterious can come into being, with capacities and intelligences that far transcend those of the individuals involved.
        • Brandt Stickley
          Dear Will, I am in agreement with your points here. I especially appreciate the following, which is a point I really emphasize in my teaching, especially as I
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 2, 2008
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            Dear Will,

            I am in agreement with your points here. I especially appreciate the
            following, which is a point I really emphasize in my teaching,
            especially as I begin to teach more of Dr. Hammer's work than the
            pulse alone. This teaching and learning activity, i.e. interrogating
            our experiences, is one of the most rewarding aspects of working
            together with the DRS instructors, and continuning to study and share
            with Dr. Hammer.

            Sincerely,

            Brandt


            > However, this is all speculative. Without the case details, we
            cannot draw
            > correlative lines between the real events and our constructions
            about what
            > we palpate.
            >
            And:

            > When such sensations are discovered, the important activity is the
            increased
            > inquiry into understanding what features of the case, either now or
            in the
            > past could lead to such events. Then is also important to report those
            > findings to our communities of interest. So I thank you for doing
            that here.
            >
          • Louis Womack
            Joe, Brandt and Will Thanks for the detailed possible interpretations you´ve given and sorry for the delay in replying! The slippery quality was definitely
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 2, 2008
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              Joe, Brandt and Will
              Thanks for the detailed possible interpretations you´ve given and sorry for the delay in
              replying!

              The slippery quality was definitely present but I felt the sliding quality not only as it left
              the distal end of my middle finger,but under at least half of the middle digit moving with
              more force than her pulse in general.

              This patient is a 56 yr old woman who has had multiple Kidney stones since she was 25
              and had her left kidney removed 10 years ago. The same year she had a hysterectomy. She
              suffers from hypocitraturia and her right kidney has started to calcify. She receives citrate
              medication in the form of Urocitra. In addition she has chronic diverticulitis and had
              numerous bouts of gastritis. So there are multiple sources of contamination to the Blood.

              Her pulse is uniformly muffled, slippery and at the LMP there is reduced substance at
              Organ Depth. LPP/RPP are deep, thin, tense/tight(+1) and muffled. LDP is feeble.

              Intermittent 5 palm heat and feels cold. Pale tongue with thin edges.

              Will, the idea of a vascular lesion-do you mean on the artery itself or internally?

              I will see this patient next week and if the quality is still there will give a more detailed
              account.



              Louis




              --- In PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com, "William Morris" <wmorris33@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Brandt, Louis and Joe -
              >
              > I am sensitive to pursuing what is a fascinating discussion with mutual
              > collegial respect. These types of dialogue have great potential for richness
              > and expansion of our understandings in these areas.
              >
              > The notion of chemical toxicity as the primary meaning assigned to the blood
              > unclear pulse has been given by Shen-Hammer. However, I do have a different
              > experience that can be explained vis a vis Liu Wansu's theory of heat
              > transformations, which in essence is: all pathogens turn to heat.
              >
              > Many possible conditions are associated with the blood unclear finding, and
              > some can progress from a blood unclear state to a blood heat state -
              > especially that of liver *qi*. Chemical toxicities, less so and in my
              > experience, the heavy metal loads tend not to do a heat transformation.
              > Further, leaky gut syndrome which has been a model for care since Li Dong
              > Yuan's earth school is important, Dr. Hammer discusses polypeptides crossing
              > a compromised gut barrier system and presenting with a blood unclear pulse
              > as the antigen responses are now in the blood stream. This is a very common
              > condition and is often correlated with the palpation of a blood unclear
              > pulse (the pulse gets slightly wider when using the lifting method through
              > the blood depth). The spleen qi depleted state allows damp to collect below
              > which transforms into heat then rises upward harassing the channels. This is
              > the classic *bu zhong yi qi tang *scenario.
              >
              > However, this is all speculative. Without the case details, we cannot draw
              > correlative lines between the real events and our constructions about what
              > we palpate. So Louis, you state that there is a: "squirting sensation, as if
              > the impulse at Blood depth has been forced through a sieve and broken up
              > into thin rivulets of blood. No rivulet is more pronounced than any other
              > and if anything the width here is wider." This sounds like multiple streams
              > and slipperiness is certainly a consideration, but also some lesion on the
              > vascular wall should be considered.
              >
              > Further, what you describe is a rather strange phenomena that is rather
              > inconsistent with the descriptions in this group's expanded pulse lexicon.
              > When such sensations are discovered, the important activity is the increased
              > inquiry into understanding what features of the case, either now or in the
              > past could lead to such events. Then is also important to report those
              > findings to our communities of interest. So I thank you for doing that here.
              >
              >
              > Warmly,
              >
              > Will
              >
              > On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Brandt Stickley <kbstickley@...>
              > wrote:
              >
              > > Louis,
              > >
              > > I would not take great exception to Joe's comments,
              > > except that Blood Unclear is not typically described
              > > as beginning stages of Blood Heat in Contemporary
              > > Chinese Pulse Diagnosis (CCPD) as it is continuing to
              > > be taught by Dr. Hammer. Rather it is associated with
              > > a few scenarios: toxicity due to environmental
              > > chemicals, Liver Qi stagnation or deficiency
              > > inhibiting the detoxifying function of the Liver, and
              > > a similar breakdown of Spleen function. Far and away,
              > > though the toxicity is most common. We also
              > > associated Choppy qualities in the LMP and esepcially
              > > on the First Impressions with exposure to chemical
              > > toxins.
              > >
              > > Given what you describe as its width, certainly
              > > considering the wide qualities like Blood Unclear,
              > > Blood Heat, and Blood Thick is warranted. The latter
              > > two are associated with Blood Heat and hyperlipidemia
              > > as Joe suggests.
              > >
              > > Another consideration is that we define the Slippery
              > > quality by its "squirting" in one direction, and it
              > > amy be that these two sensations combine to give you
              > > the sensation as you described it. One of the
              > > strengths of the system, however, is that we can parse
              > > out these sensations and actually learn more details
              > > by so doing.
              > >
              > > Thanks for an interesting observation, and keep
              > > trusting what you feel!
              > >
              > > Sincerely,
              > >
              > > Brandt
              > >
              > > __________________________________________________________
              > > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster
              > > Total Access, No Cost.
              > > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > Warmly,
              >
              > Will
              >
              >
              > William R. Morris, DAOM, MSEd, LAc
              > http://theccrt.com/
              > http://www.aoma.edu/
              > http://www.pulsediagnosis.com/
              >
              > When individuals come together with a shared intention, in a conducive
              > environment, something mysterious can come into being, with capacities and
              > intelligences that far transcend those of the individuals involved.
              >
            • Louis Womack
              Hi Ross, You bet it felt slippery like I´ve never felt. Very tangible acceleration and considering the increase in width a Blood Unclear quality sounds
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 12, 2008
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                Hi Ross,

                You bet it felt slippery like I´ve never felt. Very tangible acceleration and considering
                the increase in width a Blood Unclear quality sounds feasible, though as I mentioned the
                profile wasn´t appropriate to check for a Blood Continuum. I´m seeing this patient again
                next week and will check in more detail, if the quality remains.

                Have really enjoyed the articles you and Brandt have published. Hope there´s more to
                come!

                Louis
                --- In PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com, "Ross Rosen" <rossrosen@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi,
                > Just an aside to the question that was raised and more specifically the
                > response, I just wanted to clarify that Blood Unclear is a completely
                > separate event from Blood Heat and Blood Thick. Blood Unclear represents
                > toxicity in this system and usually supersedes a finding on the pulse of
                > Blood Heat or Blood Thick.
                >
                > The question of which quality Louis is feeling is interesting as he
                > describes it as having a marked decrease in amplitude at this depth. Often
                > with the Blood Heat and Thick it feels as if the amplitude increases as one
                > moves upwards through the depths. Does the movement "through a sieve" feel
                > like slippery, perhaps combined with a Blood Unclear?
                >
                > Ross
                >
                > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Joseph Adams <qimoves@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Hi Louis,
                > > Contemplating this pulse, it occurs that a combination of blood unclear,
                > > (beginning stage blood heat) and hyperlipidemia might be at play here---The
                > > other possibility is plain ole liver blood vacuity. What is the chief
                > > complaint, signs and symptoms of your patient? With palpation was there
                > > tenderness/tightness in the sub-costal region? Any other salient features to
                > > the pulse?
                > > In Health,
                > > Joe
                > >
                > > *Louis Womack <tolvmanne@...>* wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi, my name is Louis and this is my first post. I´ve felt a quality at
                > > the Left Middle position
                > > moving towards the diaphragm which I would describe as a squirting
                > > sensation, as if the
                > > impulse at Blood depth has been forced through a sieve and broken up into
                > > thin rivulets of
                > > blood. No rivulet is more pronounced than any other and if anything the
                > > width here is wider.
                > > The sensation is also that the pulse amplitude is significantly reduced as
                > > it passes through
                > > this area. There is no choppy quality. Does this sound familiar to anyone
                > > and what would be
                > > the interpretation?
                > >
                > > Louis Womack
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > --
                > _/I\_
                > Ross Rosen, LAc, CA, Dipl OM (NCCAOM)
                > Center for Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine
                > 166 Mountain Ave.
                > Westfield, NJ 07090
                > (908) 654-4333
                > http://www.acupunctureandherbalmedicine.com
                > http://rossrosen.blogspot.com
                > http://rangnangogminling.blogspot.com
                >
                >
                > This email contains confidential information intended for the person(s) to
                > whom it is addressed. If you should receive this in error please contact us
                > immediately by return mail, or at the above phone number. Unauthorized use
                > of this information may be in violation of criminal statutes or HIPAA
                > regulations. Under no circumstances shall this material be retained,
                > transmitted, or copied by anyone other than the addressee(s).
                >
              • Louis Womack
                Hi Ross, Wrote you a reply yesterday which seems to have disappeared in transit. As to slippry, I don´t think I´ve felt anything as slippery- a definite
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 13, 2008
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                  Hi Ross,
                  Wrote you a reply yesterday which seems to have disappeared in transit.

                  As to slippry, I don´t think I´ve felt anything as slippery- a definite sensation of
                  acceleration and this quality was noticeable under the entire pad and not just as it left the
                  edge of the middle finger. Considering the width I think your interpretation as Blood
                  Unclear would be plausible.

                  Also have really enjoyed the articles by you and Brandt. Hope there is more to come!

                  Louis

                  --- In PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com, "Ross Rosen" <rossrosen@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi,
                  > Just an aside to the question that was raised and more specifically the
                  > response, I just wanted to clarify that Blood Unclear is a completely
                  > separate event from Blood Heat and Blood Thick. Blood Unclear represents
                  > toxicity in this system and usually supersedes a finding on the pulse of
                  > Blood Heat or Blood Thick.
                  >
                  > The question of which quality Louis is feeling is interesting as he
                  > describes it as having a marked decrease in amplitude at this depth. Often
                  > with the Blood Heat and Thick it feels as if the amplitude increases as one
                  > moves upwards through the depths. Does the movement "through a sieve" feel
                  > like slippery, perhaps combined with a Blood Unclear?
                  >
                  > Ross
                  >
                  > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Joseph Adams <qimoves@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hi Louis,
                  > > Contemplating this pulse, it occurs that a combination of blood unclear,
                  > > (beginning stage blood heat) and hyperlipidemia might be at play here---The
                  > > other possibility is plain ole liver blood vacuity. What is the chief
                  > > complaint, signs and symptoms of your patient? With palpation was there
                  > > tenderness/tightness in the sub-costal region? Any other salient features to
                  > > the pulse?
                  > > In Health,
                  > > Joe
                  > >
                  > > *Louis Womack <tolvmanne@...>* wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi, my name is Louis and this is my first post. I´ve felt a quality at
                  > > the Left Middle position
                  > > moving towards the diaphragm which I would describe as a squirting
                  > > sensation, as if the
                  > > impulse at Blood depth has been forced through a sieve and broken up into
                  > > thin rivulets of
                  > > blood. No rivulet is more pronounced than any other and if anything the
                  > > width here is wider.
                  > > The sensation is also that the pulse amplitude is significantly reduced as
                  > > it passes through
                  > > this area. There is no choppy quality. Does this sound familiar to anyone
                  > > and what would be
                  > > the interpretation?
                  > >
                  > > Louis Womack
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > _/I\_
                  > Ross Rosen, LAc, CA, Dipl OM (NCCAOM)
                  > Center for Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine
                  > 166 Mountain Ave.
                  > Westfield, NJ 07090
                  > (908) 654-4333
                  > http://www.acupunctureandherbalmedicine.com
                  > http://rossrosen.blogspot.com
                  > http://rangnangogminling.blogspot.com
                  >
                  >
                  > This email contains confidential information intended for the person(s) to
                  > whom it is addressed. If you should receive this in error please contact us
                  > immediately by return mail, or at the above phone number. Unauthorized use
                  > of this information may be in violation of criminal statutes or HIPAA
                  > regulations. Under no circumstances shall this material be retained,
                  > transmitted, or copied by anyone other than the addressee(s).
                  >
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