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Re: [PulseDiagnosis] new poll/pulse classes

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  • Darby Valley, L.Ac.
    This is the reason I voted that the current education is enough . The difficulty is not the learning it is the examples to learn from. Even when I took
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 28, 2007
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      This is the reason I voted that the current education is "enough".  The difficulty is not the learning it is the examples to learn from.  Even when I took Will's pulse course we were scrambling to find enough pulse signatures to experience.  When I was in my school clinic there was an amazing lack of variety of pulses.  The only way to learn I have had any success with is either learn the basics practice over time rinse and repeat or as I did with a 5 element pulse diagnostician, have them come to me and read pulses with me on my patients I am already familiar with.  The only institutional option I have ever been able to come with would be master/apprentice externships.

      -Darby Valley

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: "shadjody@..." <shadjody@...>
      To: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 10:04:29 AM
      Subject: [PulseDiagnosis] new poll/pulse classes

      Hi
      I teach at Bastyr University in Seattle.  I teach a 2 credit (22 hrs) advanced tongue and pulse diagnosis class as an elective.  3/8 of the class is TCM pulses, 1/4 is Japanese Sho system (Japanese Meriden Therapy), 1/8 is 8 Extra Vessel (based on Will's class/ article form Acupuncture today) and 1/8 is a 3 hr . slide show on tongue diagnosis and of course exams..  About a half of each class is spent in lab setting where myself and a TA go around and check technique.  I have taken Will's class but don't feel competent to teach Dr. Hammer's system. 
      About 10 years ago I tried teaching the 1st year class where students learn tongue and pulse.  I found all they could do is memorize and learn a few simple pulses.  Even  a complex discussion of tongues(obviously much simpler than pulses) was beyond them at that level.  Tongue and pulse needs to be revisited  after students are in clinic and actually working with patients,
      Shad Reinstein LAc MAc



      Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

    • rossrosen
      As with most of you, I had virtually no training in pulse diagnosis while in school. At the same time, however, looking back I am not so sure how valuable it
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 2, 2007
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        As with most of you, I had virtually no training in pulse diagnosis
        while in school. At the same time, however, looking back I am not so
        sure how valuable it would have been given that most schools teach
        strict TCM and have faculty with barely any pulse training themselves.
        Everything in the school clinic was slippery or wiry just as others
        have alluded to in prior posts. To have attempted to learn pulse
        diagnosis with no way of receiving adequate feedback and guidance from
        faculty (as they were not trained in pulse) probably would have been
        more frustrating than waiting to learn it after graduation. Studying
        with Dr. Leon Hammer has been, and is, an eye-opening experience into
        the subtleties of what can be revealed from the pulse. As a certified
        teacher in this system, I have been on both sides of the dilemma of
        teaching and learning pulse diagnosis. I feel that to properly teach
        the pulse in a school setting, the system of education needs to some
        degree revolve around the theoretical framework that the pulse
        provides. Dr. Hammer's school, Dragon Rises, is an excellent model
        for this. But to do it well, one needs to break out of the confining
        mould of TCM and western-defined Chinese medicine.

        Another issue is attracting enough practitioners with a strong desire
        to learn the pulse. School models revolve around western disease
        differentiation and don't value the pulse enough as a method of
        diagnosis, relegating it to simply validate a pattern of imbalance.
        Why spend years studying pulse for that? Many don't want to dedicate
        years to this endeavor, favoring a quickly applied form of diagnosis.
        Much of this stems from misinformation or lack thereof.

        Hopefully, as enough practitioners with skill in pulse diagnosis
        emerge (and teach), this interest will again rise in the student body.
      • mark phillips
        My experience in Australia since 1991 (regarding pulse diagnostics) has been exactly the same as Ross . Unfortunately for the new students in Australia, there
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 3, 2007
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          My experience in Australia since 1991 (regarding pulse diagnostics) has been exactly the same as Ross'. Unfortunately for the new students in Australia, there is little choice in CM pulse education. The few accredited university colleges here are TCM and reflect a type of modern Chinese arrogance about their monopoly. Thank God for www and web groups like this one!

          rossrosen <rossrosen@...> wrote:
          As with most of you, I had virtually no training in pulse diagnosis
          while in school. At the same time, however, looking back I am not so
          sure how valuable it would have been given that most schools teach
          strict TCM and have faculty with barely any pulse training themselves.
          Everything in the school clinic was slippery or wiry just as others
          have alluded to in prior posts. To have attempted to learn pulse
          diagnosis with no way of receiving adequate feedback and guidance from
          faculty (as they were not trained in pulse) probably would have been
          more frustrating than waiting to learn it after graduation. Studying
          with Dr. Leon Hammer has been, and is, an eye-opening experience into
          the subtleties of what can be revealed from the pulse. As a certified
          teacher in this system, I have been on both sides of the dilemma of
          teaching and learning pulse diagnosis. I feel that to properly teach
          the pulse in a school setting, the system of education needs to some
          degree revolve around the theoretical framework that the pulse
          provides. Dr. Hammer's school, Dragon Rises, is an excellent model
          for this. But to do it well, one needs to break out of the confining
          mould of TCM and western-defined Chinese medicine.

          Another issue is attracting enough practitioners with a strong desire
          to learn the pulse. School models revolve around western disease
          differentiation and don't value the pulse enough as a method of
          diagnosis, relegating it to simply validate a pattern of imbalance.
          Why spend years studying pulse for that? Many don't want to dedicate
          years to this endeavor, favoring a quickly applied form of diagnosis.
          Much of this stems from misinformation or lack thereof.

          Hopefully, as enough practitioners with skill in pulse diagnosis
          emerge (and teach), this interest will again rise in the student body.



          Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
          Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

        • William Morris
          Thanks all our friend for the responses - they are continuing to trickle in. We have 21 responses to on the survey page. We need more power in order to
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 3, 2007
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            Thanks all our friend for the responses - they are continuing to trickle in. We have 21 responses to on the survey page. We need more power in order to understand the issues better. Not that we have randomizing power. But, I also plan to use your qualitative commentary in a summary analysis of your input for your review.

            I have been exploring a pulse method for diagnosing the Shen that seems to have great potential. As soon as we hit 50 respondents, I will publish that to the list. Please encourage all your fully trained and licensed friends to respond candidly with their thoughts. Just click on either of the links below. Further comments in the forum are appreciated.

            http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/PulseDiagnosis/polls

            Three second poll: Did you receive enough training in pulse diagnosis in your core curriculum at acupuncture school? Please feel free to respond to this question conversationally in the forum.

            Warmly,


            Will


            On 8/3/07, mark phillips < markphillipsuts@...> wrote:

            My experience in Australia since 1991 (regarding pulse diagnostics) has been exactly the same as Ross'. Unfortunately for the new students in Australia, there is little choice in CM pulse education. The few accredited university colleges here are TCM and reflect a type of modern Chinese arrogance about their monopoly. Thank God for www and web groups like this one!



            rossrosen <rossrosen@...> wrote:
            As with most of you, I had virtually no training in pulse diagnosis
            while in school. At the same time, however, looking back I am not so
            sure how valuable it would have been given that most schools teach
            strict TCM and have faculty with barely any pulse training themselves.
            Everything in the school clinic was slippery or wiry just as others
            have alluded to in prior posts. To have attempted to learn pulse
            diagnosis with no way of receiving adequate feedback and guidance from
            faculty (as they were not trained in pulse) probably would have been
            more frustrating than waiting to learn it after graduation. Studying
            with Dr. Leon Hammer has been, and is, an eye-opening experience into
            the subtleties of what can be revealed from the pulse. As a certified
            teacher in this system, I have been on both sides of the dilemma of
            teaching and learning pulse diagnosis. I feel that to properly teach
            the pulse in a school setting, the system of education needs to some
            degree revolve around the theoretical framework that the pulse
            provides. Dr. Hammer's school, Dragon Rises, is an excellent model
            for this. But to do it well, one needs to break out of the confining
            mould of TCM and western-defined Chinese medicine.

            Another issue is attracting enough practitioners with a strong desire
            to learn the pulse. School models revolve around western disease
            differentiation and don't value the pulse enough as a method of
            diagnosis, relegating it to simply validate a pattern of imbalance.
            Why spend years studying pulse for that? Many don't want to dedicate
            years to this endeavor, favoring a quickly applied form of diagnosis.
            Much of this stems from misinformation or lack thereof.

            Hopefully, as enough practitioners with skill in pulse diagnosis
            emerge (and teach), this interest will again rise in the student body.



            Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
            Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.




            --
            William R. Morris, DAOM
            President Emeritus, AAAOM
            Editor in Chief, American Acupuncturist
          • Joseph adams
            Dear Group, I do not believe there was enough pusle training as part of the core curriculum at the college I attended. The only core training happened during
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 3, 2007
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              Dear Group,
              I do not believe there was enough pusle training as part of the core curriculum at the college I attended. The only core training happened during one week of a 10 week diagnosis class.
               
              Four quarters of pulse training, and then another year of more advanced training including clinical rounds would have been a nice inclusion.
               
              While I agree that nothing can take the place of hands on instruction, I did hunt down every  book, classical passage, and article relating to the pulse that I could find. Li shi Zhen's Pulse Diagnosis started me on my journey.
               
              Ultimately when I connected with my pulse teacher, I had a familiarity with basic concepts which made it easier to digest and incorporate other pulse attributes and paradigms.
              Joe
               

              William Morris <wmorris33@...> wrote:
              Thanks all our friend for the responses - they are continuing to trickle in. We have 21 responses to on the survey page. We need more power in order to understand the issues better. Not that we have randomizing power. But, I also plan to use your qualitative commentary in a summary analysis of your input for your review.

              I have been exploring a pulse method for diagnosing the Shen that seems to have great potential. As soon as we hit 50 respondents, I will publish that to the list. Please encourage all your fully trained and licensed friends to respond candidly with their thoughts. Just click on either of the links below. Further comments in the forum are appreciated.Warmly,


              Will


              On 8/3/07, mark phillips < markphillipsuts@ yahoo.com> wrote:
              My experience in Australia since 1991 (regarding pulse diagnostics) has been exactly the same as Ross'. Unfortunately for the new students in Australia, there is little choice in CM pulse education. The few accredited university colleges here are TCM and reflect a type of modern Chinese arrogance about their monopoly. Thank God for www and web groups like this one!


              rossrosen <rossrosen@gmail. com> wrote:
              As with most of you, I had virtually no training in pulse diagnosis
              while in school. At the same time, however, looking back I am not so
              sure how valuable it would have been given that most schools teach
              strict TCM and have faculty with barely any pulse training themselves.
              Everything in the school clinic was slippery or wiry just as others
              have alluded to in prior posts. To have attempted to learn pulse
              diagnosis with no way of receiving adequate feedback and guidance from
              faculty (as they were not trained in pulse) probably would have been
              more frustrating than waiting to learn it after graduation. Studying
              with Dr. Leon Hammer has been, and is, an eye-opening experience into
              the subtleties of what can be revealed from the pulse. As a certified
              teacher in this system, I have been on both sides of the dilemma of
              teaching and learning pulse diagnosis. I feel that to properly teach
              the pulse in a school setting, the system of education needs to some
              degree revolve around the theoretical framework that the pulse
              provides. Dr. Hammer's school, Dragon Rises, is an excellent model
              for this. But to do it well, one needs to break out of the confining
              mould of TCM and western-defined Chinese medicine.

              Another issue is attracting enough practitioners with a strong desire
              to learn the pulse. School models revolve around western disease
              differentiation and don't value the pulse enough as a method of
              diagnosis, relegating it to simply validate a pattern of imbalance.
              Why spend years studying pulse for that? Many don't want to dedicate
              years to this endeavor, favoring a quickly applied form of diagnosis.
              Much of this stems from misinformation or lack thereof.

              Hopefully, as enough practitioners with skill in pulse diagnosis
              emerge (and teach), this interest will again rise in the student body.



              Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
              Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.



              --
              William R. Morris, DAOM
              President Emeritus, AAAOM
              Editor in Chief, American Acupuncturist


              Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

            • marigold908
              Dear Group, I agree with Joe. I attended the same school he did and also do not believe there was enough pusle training as part of the core curriculum. I
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 3, 2007
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                Dear Group,
                I agree with Joe. I attended the same school he did and also do not believe there was enough
                pusle training as part of the core curriculum. I actually received my pulse training during a
                pulse diagnosis class with Joe. It was the only class that was available on pulse diagnosis.

                I believe the different schools of thought regarding pulse diagnosis should each be
                addressed in a class of its own. Advanced training would be a welcome addition in a clinical
                program too.

                I am still looking for additional resources and teachers in Los Angeles to better develop my
                pulse diagnosis skills and welcome receiving any information to further my goal of learning
                more.

                much success to you all,

                Mary S.
              • Brandt Stickley
                Will, I applaud your initiative and insight. You are leading from the front. God willing we ll actually meet some day in the not-too-distant future. Thank
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 4, 2007
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                  Will,

                  I applaud your initiative and insight. You are leading from the
                  front. God willing we'll actually meet some day in the
                  not-too-distant future.

                  Thank you.

                  Brandt Stickley

                  --- In PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com, "William Morris"
                  <wmorris33@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks all our friend for the responses - they are continuing to
                  trickle in.
                  > We have 21 responses to on the survey page. We need more power in
                  order to
                  > understand the issues better. Not that we have randomizing power. But, I
                  > also plan to use your qualitative commentary in a summary analysis
                  of your
                  > input for your review.
                  >
                  > I have been exploring a pulse method for diagnosing the Shen that
                  seems to
                  > have great potential. As soon as we hit 50 respondents, I will
                  publish that
                  > to the list. Please encourage all your fully trained and licensed
                  friends to
                  > respond candidly with their thoughts. Just click on either of the links
                  > below. Further comments in the forum are appreciated.
                  >
                  > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/PulseDiagnosis/polls
                  >
                  > Three second poll: Did you receive enough training in pulse diagnosis in
                  > your core curriculum at acupuncture school? Please feel free to
                  respond to
                  > this question conversationally in the forum.
                  > <http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/PulseDiagnosis/surveys?id=2543848>
                  > Warmly,
                  >
                  >
                  > Will
                  >
                  >
                  > On 8/3/07, mark phillips <markphillipsuts@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > My experience in Australia since 1991 (regarding pulse
                  diagnostics) has
                  > > been exactly the same as Ross'. Unfortunately for the new students in
                  > > Australia, there is little choice in CM pulse education. The few
                  accredited
                  > > university colleges here are TCM and reflect a type of modern Chinese
                  > > arrogance about their monopoly. Thank God for www and web groups
                  like this
                  > > one!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > *rossrosen <rossrosen@...>* wrote:
                  > >
                  > > As with most of you, I had virtually no training in pulse diagnosis
                  > > while in school. At the same time, however, looking back I am not so
                  > > sure how valuable it would have been given that most schools teach
                  > > strict TCM and have faculty with barely any pulse training themselves.
                  > > Everything in the school clinic was slippery or wiry just as others
                  > > have alluded to in prior posts. To have attempted to learn pulse
                  > > diagnosis with no way of receiving adequate feedback and guidance from
                  > > faculty (as they were not trained in pulse) probably would have been
                  > > more frustrating than waiting to learn it after graduation. Studying
                  > > with Dr. Leon Hammer has been, and is, an eye-opening experience into
                  > > the subtleties of what can be revealed from the pulse. As a certified
                  > > teacher in this system, I have been on both sides of the dilemma of
                  > > teaching and learning pulse diagnosis. I feel that to properly teach
                  > > the pulse in a school setting, the system of education needs to some
                  > > degree revolve around the theoretical framework that the pulse
                  > > provides. Dr. Hammer's school, Dragon Rises, is an excellent model
                  > > for this. But to do it well, one needs to break out of the confining
                  > > mould of TCM and western-defined Chinese medicine.
                  > >
                  > > Another issue is attracting enough practitioners with a strong desire
                  > > to learn the pulse. School models revolve around western disease
                  > > differentiation and don't value the pulse enough as a method of
                  > > diagnosis, relegating it to simply validate a pattern of imbalance.
                  > > Why spend years studying pulse for that? Many don't want to dedicate
                  > > years to this endeavor, favoring a quickly applied form of diagnosis.
                  > > Much of this stems from misinformation or lack thereof.
                  > >
                  > > Hopefully, as enough practitioners with skill in pulse diagnosis
                  > > emerge (and teach), this interest will again rise in the student body.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------
                  > > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                  > > Play Monopoly Here and
                  Now<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48223/*http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow>(it's
                  updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > William R. Morris, DAOM
                  > President Emeritus, AAAOM
                  > Editor in Chief, American Acupuncturist
                  >
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