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Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Apocalypto - maya

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  • mike white
    moby, how can we be certain? i believe the maya once were advanced and noble, but that their culture declined. as to the dates of the steps of their decline,
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 9, 2006
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         moby, how can we be certain?  i believe the maya once were advanced and noble, but that their culture declined.  as to the dates of the steps of their decline, all remains conjecture.  ive little confidence in current concensus. 
         it seems reliable that a different race was the ruling elite.  this is based to the depictions of anatomical differences.  so often our experts become prematurely certain of their 'facts', and fail to make proper tests to confirm or deny conclusions. 
         they have found evidence that an uprising of the masses occurred, wherein the rulers were exterminated - but when? 
         lacking more positive proofs, i accept cayce, that human sacrifices and blood rites began after 3000 bce, and the arrival of lost tribes.  
         it appears from andean legends that earth changes happened near the same time, circa 3000 bce.  a migration from peru into yucatan likely occurred at that time, making it an inca province, as de la vega gave. 
         the mayan world underwent major changes at that time.  the long-count began, world view, and religion became a composite from several peoples.  are we certain that the elongated skull former ruling race was still in power? 
         chris, welcome to the discussion.  plz share pics of your collection when time allows.  i too am a collector of mexican artifacts.  archive dont keep the pics ive shared, but our photo section may be a good upload place. 
       
      mike
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: mobydoc
      Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 1:02 AM
      Subject: RE: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Apocalypto

                 Of course they didn’t butcher people …Judith J

                  Welcome to the real world …of then L 

       

                                                 Moby

      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----

       

      Ordinarily I try to steer clear of cross posting that is opinion, but while I have not seen Apocalypto, as a student of Mayan culture, I am appalled at what Mitch describes in his Earthchanges Newsletter, and I can only hope that this movie does not fare well. 

       

      There is no question but that at the end of Mayan civilization, many years after most of the major cities had gone back to the jungle, and after the remnants of the culture had been heavily infiltrated and influenced by other cultures, notably the Aztecs, there were bloody excesses, but this was not who they were as a civilization at its height. 

      ~ Judith Marie

       

       

      My Personal Review of ‘Apocalypto’

      by Mitch Battros - ECM/ECTV

       

      There are generally two distinct perspectives of the Mayan culture. One is a culture of an astronomically advanced society with a bewildering understanding of the sky and universe. Also of a spiritually focused community with a passion of stewardship to “Gaia” or Mother Earth…as with many indigenous tribes.

      The second view of the Mayan culture is of a savage backward people. A society of evil worship and human sacrifice. This view also believes the Maya were wasteful stupid people quickly devouring their surroundings and leading to their demise.

      Mel Gibson has gone full throttle into the second view of the Maya. So much so, towards the end of the movie we see the Spanish ships docking on the shores of perhaps Guatemala or Belize . The Spanish Inquisition had begun its toll on the Yucatan .

      This movie is filled with blood, and guts, and beheadings, and cutting out hearts, and torture, and everything for those who love this stuff will just have to see. Okay fine; go see it---But please remember this is HOLLYWOOD , not fact. I fear people will come away from this filth thinking they have an accurate depiction of history.

      Gibson’s disdain for anything other than his slant on Christianity comes blasting through with a conscious intent to sabotage all spiritual beliefs----except his own of course. At one time I felt sorry for this knucklehead when he was charged with a DUI and jailed. And who could forget his spewing of anti-Semite Jew hating babble. Now I realize he just doesn’t hate Jews, he hates everybody who isn’t Christian. Not just Christian, but “his kind of Christian”.

      This movie put a sour taste in my mouth, and sadness in my heart. Those who are less educated about this culture will actually “cheer” when they see the Spanish vessels arrive off shore. Of course the movie ends there not giving the story of what happened next.

      The Spanish Inquisition was led by Diego de Landa Calderón (1524 – 1579) and was Bishop of Yucatán. Landa's Inquisition showered a level of physical abuse upon the indigenous Maya that many viewed as excessive, and was at the very least unusual. Scores of Maya nobles were jailed pending interrogation, and large numbers of Maya nobles and commoners were subjected to examination under "hoisting." During hoisting, a victim's hands were bound and looped over an extended line that was then raised until the victim's entire body was suspended in the air. Often, stone weights were added to the ankles or lashes applied to the back during interrogation.

      Some contemporary observers were troubled by this widespread use of torture. Crown fiat had earlier exempted indigenous peoples from the authority of the Inquisition, on the grounds that their understanding of Christianity was "too childish" to be held culpable for heresies. Additionally, Landa dispensed with much of the extensive formal procedure and documentation that accompanied Spanish torture and interrogation.

      Landa defended his actions by arguing that in the process of rooting out idolatry, he had discovered evidence of human sacrifice. One of the alleged victims, Mani encomendero Dasbatés, was even found later to be alive.

      Landa was sent back to Spain by Bishop Toral, to stand trial for conducting an illegal Inquisition. His actions were strongly condemned before the Council of the Indies . This resulted in a "committee of doctors" being commissioned to investigate Landa's alleged crimes. In 1569 the committee absolved Landa of his crimes. Bishop Toral died in Mexico in 1571, allowing King Phillip II of Spain to appoint Landa as the fourth-appointed bishop of Yucatán.

      Mel Gibson you should be ashamed of yourself. Maybe this is why you went on a binder after some years of sobriety. Living a lie, and worse yet, fueling the flames of prejudice, I can better understand why the taste and effect of beer and liquor was just too tempting.

        http://www.earthcha ngestv.com/ newsletter. php


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      Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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    • mobydoc
      G-day Mike …Chris …et all :-) Could the Mayas suffered from a (mad cow) type of disease … There is a worm which the humans catch from the Lama and
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 9, 2006
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              G-day Mike …Chris   …et all J

               Could the Mayas suffered from a (mad cow) type of disease …

            There is a worm which the humans catch from the Lama and Alpaca ..

           this minute bug is smaller than …that ‘thatch’ bug which drops out of the

          thatch roofs in these areas …it enters the body though the human skin …

            and makes for the ‘Brain’ a proper nasty basted L Humans have it in USA L

           its main hoist  is the Lamas and the Alpacas  … plus sheep ….it has a name \

         which slips   me… at this moment in time…(btw) Some bloody idiot spoke of noble savages … quoting my country J I don’t think he ever visited the land …a good book

           to read…would be  Charles Darwin …Voyage of the HMS Beagle  1860

            [Journal of Researches ] bit old …I know  …but J  he (Charly) did tell the truth  …

            Ooops J  [truth] is a politically incorrect  “word”  to some people J  

          (ps) Mike … will find that brain bug and let yu-all know J

         

                 Regards all  J         Moby

        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            

           moby, how can we be certain?  i believe the maya once were advanced and noble, but that their culture declined.  as to the dates of the steps of their decline, all remains conjecture.  ive little confidence in current concensus. 

           it seems reliable that a different race was the ruling elite.  this is based to the depictions of anatomical differences.  so often our experts become prematurely certain of their 'facts', and fail to make proper tests to confirm or deny conclusions. 

           they have found evidence that an uprising of the masses occurred, wherein the rulers were exterminated - but when? 

           lacking more positive proofs, i accept cayce, that human sacrifices and blood rites began after 3000 bce, and the arrival of lost tribes.  

           it appears from andean legends that earth changes happened near the same time, circa 3000 bce.  a migration from peru into yucatan likely occurred at that time, making it an inca province, as de la vega gave. 

           the mayan world underwent major changes at that time.  the long-count began, world view, and religion became a composite from several peoples.  are we certain that the elongated skull former ruling race was still in power? 

           chris, welcome to the discussion.  plz share pics of your collection when time allows.  i too am a collector of mexican artifacts.  archive dont keep the pics ive shared, but our photo section may be a good upload place. 

         

        mike

         

         

        ----- Original Message -----

        From: mobydoc

        Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 1:02 AM

        Subject: RE: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Apocalypto

         

                   Of course they didn’t butcher people …Judith J

                    Welcome to the real world …of then L 

         

                                                   Moby

        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----

         

        Ordinarily I try to steer clear of cross posting that is opinion, but while I have not seen Apocalypto, as a student of Mayan culture, I am appalled at what Mitch describes in his Earthchanges Newsletter, and I can only hope that this movie does not fare well. 

         

        There is no question but that at the end of Mayan civilization, many years after most of the major cities had gone back to the jungle, and after the remnants of the culture had been heavily infiltrated and influenced by other cultures, notably the Aztecs, there were bloody excesses, but this was not who they were as a civilization at its height. 

        ~ Judith Marie

         

         

        My Personal Review of ‘Apocalypto’

        by Mitch Battros - ECM/ECTV

         

        There are generally two distinct perspectives of the Mayan culture. One is a culture of an astronomically advanced society with a bewildering understanding of the sky and universe. Also of a spiritually focused community with a passion of stewardship to “Gaia” or Mother Earth…as with many indigenous tribes.

        The second view of the Mayan culture is of a savage backward people. A society of evil worship and human sacrifice. This view also believes the Maya were wasteful stupid people quickly devouring their surroundings and leading to their demise.

        Mel Gibson has gone full throttle into the second view of the Maya. So much so, towards the end of the movie we see the Spanish ships docking on the shores of perhaps Guatemala or Belize . The Spanish Inquisition had begun its toll on the Yucatan .

        This movie is filled with blood, and guts, and beheadings, and cutting out hearts, and torture, and everything for those who love this stuff will just have to see. Okay fine; go see it---But please remember this is HOLLYWOOD , not fact. I fear people will come away from this filth thinking they have an accurate depiction of history.

        Gibson’s disdain for anything other than his slant on Christianity comes blasting through with a conscious intent to sabotage all spiritual beliefs----except his own of course. At one time I felt sorry for this knucklehead when he was charged with a DUI and jailed. And who could forget his spewing of anti-Semite Jew hating babble. Now I realize he just doesn’t hate Jews, he hates everybody who isn’t Christian. Not just Christian, but “his kind of Christian”.

        This movie put a sour taste in my mouth, and sadness in my heart. Those who are less educated about this culture will actually “cheer” when they see the Spanish vessels arrive off shore. Of course the movie ends there not giving the story of what happened next.

        The Spanish Inquisition was led by Diego de Landa Calderón (1524 – 1579) and was Bishop of Yucatán. Landa's Inquisition showered a level of physical abuse upon the indigenous Maya that many viewed as excessive, and was at the very least unusual. Scores of Maya nobles were jailed pending interrogation, and large numbers of Maya nobles and commoners were subjected to examination under "hoisting." During hoisting, a victim's hands were bound and looped over an extended line that was then raised until the victim's entire body was suspended in the air. Often, stone weights were added to the ankles or lashes applied to the back during interrogation.

        Some contemporary observers were troubled by this widespread use of torture. Crown fiat had earlier exempted indigenous peoples from the authority of the Inquisition, on the grounds that their understanding of Christianity was "too childish" to be held culpable for heresies. Additionally, Landa dispensed with much of the extensive formal procedure and documentation that accompanied Spanish torture and interrogation.

        Landa defended his actions by arguing that in the process of rooting out idolatry, he had discovered evidence of human sacrifice. One of the alleged victims, Mani encomendero Dasbatés, was even found later to be alive.

        Landa was sent back to Spain by Bishop Toral, to stand trial for conducting an illegal Inquisition. His actions were strongly condemned before the Council of the Indies . This resulted in a "committee of doctors" being commissioned to investigate Landa's alleged crimes. In 1569 the committee absolved Landa of his crimes. Bishop Toral died in Mexico in 1571, allowing King Phillip II of Spain to appoint Landa as the fourth-appointed bishop of Yucatán.

        Mel Gibson you should be ashamed of yourself. Maybe this is why you went on a binder after some years of sobriety. Living a lie, and worse yet, fueling the flames of prejudice, I can better understand why the taste and effect of beer and liquor was just too tempting.

          http://www.earthcha ngestv.com/ newsletter. php


        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date:
        12/8/2006

      • mobydoc
        H. L G-day Mike ...Chris ...Butch et al ,_http://www.stillwaterminerals.com/health/mad_cow.htm It s not the main one but :-) Moby __
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 9, 2006
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          H. L



          G-day Mike ...Chris ...Butch et al
          ,_http://www.stillwaterminerals.com/health/mad_cow.htm
          It's not the main one but :-)

          Moby
          __
        • mike white
          ive noted a similarity in architecture also, between yucatan and angkor wat, noting particularly the corbelled roofs. so greater pacifica seemed to share an
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 9, 2006
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               ive noted a similarity in architecture also, between yucatan and angkor wat, noting particularly the corbelled roofs.  so greater pacifica seemed to share an early high culture. 
               our lads assign a date for the classic mayan era that is far different than others might give.  i tend to give more credance to the mystical sources than an academic would.  mexico is the melting pot of early cultures, as the diversity of styles and dogma indicates.  the blood sacrifices show a decline in religious thought, so perhaps we must look before 3000 bce for the higher culture, though what we came to know as mayan may have began at that time.  some of the pyramids and buildings may date from far earlier, but have been lumped together.   the same confused mixture of various tenets and dogma came together in religious thought and expression, so its pardonable for our researchers to have difficulty sorting it out. 
             
            mike
             
             
          • mobydoc
            . G-day guys ; If it
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 10, 2006
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              .

                G-day guys ;

                If it wasn’t the  Spaniards…. it could have been the

                        MeningealEncephalitis Worm :

               I believe  It wiped out the Chinese after they went round the world …

                prior  to 800 till 1423 ad  and all the ports they landed  in L

              they left bug  in the Americas …its known to live in

                Chinese Pug dogs …Camels…  Llamas …Alpacas …Sheep J 

                 Could that  bug be the(( Apocaclypts))

                The    Meningeal  Encephalitis  Worm …. people with it go mad

                 Is this what’s coursing the (IRAQ) trouble …has anyone

                bothered  to check L

                  What if that’s why the college kids of America   are banging one another

                  to death …for no apparent reason …

               

               CAN somebody CHECK  !!!!!!!!! Weird HUH

               

                        Regards all       Moby

               

                                      

                

            • bruce3058
              Moby, I respect you for your views. But if you are referring to Edgar Cayce, I too could go into a trance and with my knowledge of world history spin some
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 10, 2006
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                Moby,

                I respect you for your views. But if you are referring to Edgar
                Cayce, I too could go into a trance and with my knowledge of world
                history spin some interesting tales which are hard to disprove. He
                was a smart man and his readings are very interesting. But I am a
                science guy and can therefore not acknowledge his trance induced
                teachings.
                Regarding the Hindu/Maya similarities, let me make it clear that
                I don't believe in any transcontinental voyages prior to the
                Spanish. However, I do have a Maya figure from Jaina Island which
                could be mistaken for a Hindu deity. There is plenty of potential
                evidence but nothing conclusive. I'll post an image soon.

                Chris





                --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                <aumsparky@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > moby, how can we be certain? i believe the maya once were
                advanced and noble, but that their culture declined. as to the dates
                of the steps of their decline, all remains conjecture. ive little
                confidence in current concensus.
                > it seems reliable that a different race was the ruling elite.
                this is based to the depictions of anatomical differences. so often
                our experts become prematurely certain of their 'facts', and fail to
                make proper tests to confirm or deny conclusions.
                > they have found evidence that an uprising of the masses
                occurred, wherein the rulers were exterminated - but when?
                > lacking more positive proofs, i accept cayce, that human
                sacrifices and blood rites began after 3000 bce, and the arrival of
                lost tribes.
                > it appears from andean legends that earth changes happened near
                the same time, circa 3000 bce. a migration from peru into yucatan
                likely occurred at that time, making it an inca province, as de la
                vega gave.
                > the mayan world underwent major changes at that time. the long-
                count began, world view, and religion became a composite from several
                peoples. are we certain that the elongated skull former ruling race
                was still in power?
                > chris, welcome to the discussion. plz share pics of your
                collection when time allows. i too am a collector of mexican
                artifacts. archive dont keep the pics ive shared, but our photo
                section may be a good upload place.
                >
                > mike
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: mobydoc
                > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 1:02 AM
                > Subject: RE: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Apocalypto
                >
                >
                >
                > Of course they didn't butcher people .Judith J
                >
                > Welcome to the real world .of then L
                >
                >
                >
                > Moby
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------
                -------------
                >
                >
                >
                > Ordinarily I try to steer clear of cross posting that is opinion,
                but while I have not seen Apocalypto, as a student of Mayan culture,
                I am appalled at what Mitch describes in his Earthchanges Newsletter,
                and I can only hope that this movie does not fare well.
                >
                >
                >
                > There is no question but that at the end of Mayan civilization,
                many years after most of the major cities had gone back to the
                jungle, and after the remnants of the culture had been heavily
                infiltrated and influenced by other cultures, notably the Aztecs,
                there were bloody excesses, but this was not who they were as a
                civilization at its height.
                >
                > ~ Judith Marie
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > My Personal Review of 'Apocalypto'
                >
                > by Mitch Battros - ECM/ECTV
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > There are generally two distinct perspectives of the
                Mayan culture. One is a culture of an astronomically advanced society
                with a bewildering understanding of the sky and universe. Also of a
                spiritually focused community with a passion of stewardship to "Gaia"
                or Mother Earth.as with many indigenous tribes.
                >
                >
                >
                > The second view of the Mayan culture is of a savage
                backward people. A society of evil worship and human sacrifice. This
                view also believes the Maya were wasteful stupid people quickly
                devouring their surroundings and leading to their demise.
                >
                >
                >
                > Mel Gibson has gone full throttle into the second
                view of the Maya. So much so, towards the end of the movie we see the
                Spanish ships docking on the shores of perhaps Guatemala or Belize.
                The Spanish Inquisition had begun its toll on the Yucatan.
                >
                >
                >
                > This movie is filled with blood, and guts, and
                beheadings, and cutting out hearts, and torture, and everything for
                those who love this stuff will just have to see. Okay fine; go see it-
                --But please remember this is HOLLYWOOD, not fact. I fear people will
                come away from this filth thinking they have an accurate depiction of
                history.
                >
                >
                >
                > Gibson's disdain for anything other than his slant on
                Christianity comes blasting through with a conscious intent to
                sabotage all spiritual beliefs----except his own of course. At one
                time I felt sorry for this knucklehead when he was charged with a DUI
                and jailed. And who could forget his spewing of anti-Semite Jew
                hating babble. Now I realize he just doesn't hate Jews, he hates
                everybody who isn't Christian. Not just Christian, but "his kind of
                Christian".
                >
                >
                >
                > This movie put a sour taste in my mouth, and sadness
                in my heart. Those who are less educated about this culture will
                actually "cheer" when they see the Spanish vessels arrive off shore.
                Of course the movie ends there not giving the story of what happened
                next.
                >
                >
                >
                > The Spanish Inquisition was led by Diego de Landa
                Calderón (1524 - 1579) and was Bishop of Yucatán. Landa's Inquisition
                showered a level of physical abuse upon the indigenous Maya that many
                viewed as excessive, and was at the very least unusual. Scores of
                Maya nobles were jailed pending interrogation, and large numbers of
                Maya nobles and commoners were subjected to examination
                under "hoisting." During hoisting, a victim's hands were bound and
                looped over an extended line that was then raised until the victim's
                entire body was suspended in the air. Often, stone weights were added
                to the ankles or lashes applied to the back during interrogation.
                >
                >
                >
                > Some contemporary observers were troubled by this
                widespread use of torture. Crown fiat had earlier exempted indigenous
                peoples from the authority of the Inquisition, on the grounds that
                their understanding of Christianity was "too childish" to be held
                culpable for heresies. Additionally, Landa dispensed with much of the
                extensive formal procedure and documentation that accompanied Spanish
                torture and interrogation.
                >
                >
                >
                > Landa defended his actions by arguing that in the
                process of rooting out idolatry, he had discovered evidence of human
                sacrifice. One of the alleged victims, Mani encomendero Dasbatés, was
                even found later to be alive.
                >
                >
                >
                > Landa was sent back to Spain by Bishop Toral, to
                stand trial for conducting an illegal Inquisition. His actions were
                strongly condemned before the Council of the Indies. This resulted in
                a "committee of doctors" being commissioned to investigate Landa's
                alleged crimes. In 1569 the committee absolved Landa of his crimes.
                Bishop Toral died in Mexico in 1571, allowing King Phillip II of
                Spain to appoint Landa as the fourth-appointed bishop of Yucatán.
                >
                >
                >
                > Mel Gibson you should be ashamed of yourself. Maybe
                this is why you went on a binder after some years of sobriety. Living
                a lie, and worse yet, fueling the flames of prejudice, I can better
                understand why the taste and effect of beer and liquor was just too
                tempting.
                >
                >
                >
                > http://www.earthchangestv.com/newsletter.php
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                ----------
                >
                >
                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date:
                12/8/2006
                >
              • mike white
                hi chris, all we all are science guys , preferring hard proof, where such exists. our particular study is epigraphy, and american prehistory. we try to
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 10, 2006
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                  hi chris, all
                   
                     we all are science 'guys', preferring hard proof, where such exists.  our particular study is epigraphy, and american prehistory.  we try to explain the hundreds of old world inscriptions that are found throughout the americas.  mainstream concensus history fails to explain these, often lumping them together as hoaxes and plow marks.  the textbooks of the academics continue to speak of the americas as peopled from asia across a former landbridge.  most of us have studied the issues deep enough to see that these old theories are not valid. 
                     as a science guy one should study the issue before criticizing it.  ive studied the edgar cayce readings for 47 years.  there has been no shortage of detractors, and the cayce work has withstood decades of study and tests of its accuracy.  if the same level of testing had been applied to our facts of science and history, it would not be so muddled and full of errors and inconsistencies. 
                     chris if you accept the history as taught, and are not open to other theories, you may be in the wrong group. 
                   
                  regards
                  mike
                  host
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: bruce3058
                  Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 6:53 AM
                  Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: Apocalypto - maya

                  Moby,

                  I respect you for your views. But if you are referring to Edgar
                  Cayce, I too could go into a trance and with my knowledge of world
                  history spin some interesting tales which are hard to disprove. He
                  was a smart man and his readings are very interesting. But I am a
                  science guy and can therefore not acknowledge his trance induced
                  teachings.
                  Regarding the Hindu/Maya similarities, let me make it clear that
                  I don't believe in any transcontinental voyages prior to the
                  Spanish. However, I do have a Maya figure from Jaina Island which
                  could be mistaken for a Hindu deity. There is plenty of potential
                  evidence but nothing conclusive. I'll post an image soon.

                  Chris

                  --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                  <aumsparky@. ..> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > moby, how can we be certain? i believe the maya once were
                  advanced and noble, but that their culture declined. as to the dates
                  of the steps of their decline, all remains conjecture. ive little
                  confidence in current concensus.
                  > it seems reliable that a different race was the ruling elite.
                  this is based to the depictions of anatomical differences. so often
                  our experts become prematurely certain of their 'facts', and fail to
                  make proper tests to confirm or deny conclusions.
                  > they have found evidence that an uprising of the masses
                  occurred, wherein the rulers were exterminated - but when?
                  > lacking more positive proofs, i accept cayce, that human
                  sacrifices and blood rites began after 3000 bce, and the arrival of
                  lost tribes.
                  > it appears from andean legends that earth changes happened near
                  the same time, circa 3000 bce. a migration from peru into yucatan
                  likely occurred at that time, making it an inca province, as de la
                  vega gave.
                  > the mayan world underwent major changes at that time. the long-
                  count began, world view, and religion became a composite from several
                  peoples. are we certain that the elongated skull former ruling race
                  was still in power?
                  > chris, welcome to the discussion. plz share pics of your
                  collection when time allows. i too am a collector of mexican
                  artifacts. archive dont keep the pics ive shared, but our photo
                  section may be a good upload place.
                  >
                  > mike
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: mobydoc
                  > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                  > Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 1:02 AM
                  > Subject: RE: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Apocalypto
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Of course they didn't butcher people .Judith J
                  >
                  > Welcome to the real world .of then L
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Moby
                  >
                  > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                  ------------ -
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Ordinarily I try to steer clear of cross posting that is opinion,
                  but while I have not seen Apocalypto, as a student of Mayan culture,
                  I am appalled at what Mitch describes in his Earthchanges Newsletter,
                  and I can only hope that this movie does not fare well.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > There is no question but that at the end of Mayan civilization,
                  many years after most of the major cities had gone back to the
                  jungle, and after the remnants of the culture had been heavily
                  infiltrated and influenced by other cultures, notably the Aztecs,
                  there were bloody excesses, but this was not who they were as a
                  civilization at its height.
                  >
                  > ~ Judith Marie
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > My Personal Review of 'Apocalypto'
                  >
                  > by Mitch Battros - ECM/ECTV
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > There are generally two distinct perspectives of the
                  Mayan culture. One is a culture of an astronomically advanced society
                  with a bewildering understanding of the sky and universe. Also of a
                  spiritually focused community with a passion of stewardship to "Gaia"
                  or Mother Earth.as with many indigenous tribes.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The second view of the Mayan culture is of a savage
                  backward people. A society of evil worship and human sacrifice. This
                  view also believes the Maya were wasteful stupid people quickly
                  devouring their surroundings and leading to their demise.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Mel Gibson has gone full throttle into the second
                  view of the Maya. So much so, towards the end of the movie we see the
                  Spanish ships docking on the shores of perhaps Guatemala or Belize.
                  The Spanish Inquisition had begun its toll on the Yucatan.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > This movie is filled with blood, and guts, and
                  beheadings, and cutting out hearts, and torture, and everything for
                  those who love this stuff will just have to see. Okay fine; go see it-
                  --But please remember this is HOLLYWOOD, not fact. I fear people will
                  come away from this filth thinking they have an accurate depiction of
                  history.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Gibson's disdain for anything other than his slant on
                  Christianity comes blasting through with a conscious intent to
                  sabotage all spiritual beliefs----except his own of course. At one
                  time I felt sorry for this knucklehead when he was charged with a DUI
                  and jailed. And who could forget his spewing of anti-Semite Jew
                  hating babble. Now I realize he just doesn't hate Jews, he hates
                  everybody who isn't Christian. Not just Christian, but "his kind of
                  Christian".
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > This movie put a sour taste in my mouth, and sadness
                  in my heart. Those who are less educated about this culture will
                  actually "cheer" when they see the Spanish vessels arrive off shore.
                  Of course the movie ends there not giving the story of what happened
                  next.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The Spanish Inquisition was led by Diego de Landa
                  Calderón (1524 - 1579) and was Bishop of Yucatán. Landa's Inquisition
                  showered a level of physical abuse upon the indigenous Maya that many
                  viewed as excessive, and was at the very least unusual. Scores of
                  Maya nobles were jailed pending interrogation, and large numbers of
                  Maya nobles and commoners were subjected to examination
                  under "hoisting." During hoisting, a victim's hands were bound and
                  looped over an extended line that was then raised until the victim's
                  entire body was suspended in the air. Often, stone weights were added
                  to the ankles or lashes applied to the back during interrogation.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Some contemporary observers were troubled by this
                  widespread use of torture. Crown fiat had earlier exempted indigenous
                  peoples from the authority of the Inquisition, on the grounds that
                  their understanding of Christianity was "too childish" to be held
                  culpable for heresies. Additionally, Landa dispensed with much of the
                  extensive formal procedure and documentation that accompanied Spanish
                  torture and interrogation.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Landa defended his actions by arguing that in the
                  process of rooting out idolatry, he had discovered evidence of human
                  sacrifice. One of the alleged victims, Mani encomendero Dasbatés, was
                  even found later to be alive.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Landa was sent back to Spain by Bishop Toral, to
                  stand trial for conducting an illegal Inquisition. His actions were
                  strongly condemned before the Council of the Indies. This resulted in
                  a "committee of doctors" being commissioned to investigate Landa's
                  alleged crimes. In 1569 the committee absolved Landa of his crimes.
                  Bishop Toral died in Mexico in 1571, allowing King Phillip II of
                  Spain to appoint Landa as the fourth-appointed bishop of Yucatán.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Mel Gibson you should be ashamed of yourself. Maybe
                  this is why you went on a binder after some years of sobriety. Living
                  a lie, and worse yet, fueling the flames of prejudice, I can better
                  understand why the taste and effect of beer and liquor was just too
                  tempting.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > http://www.earthcha ngestv.com/ newsletter. php
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                  ----------
                  >
                  >
                  > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date:
                  12/8/2006
                  >


                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/581 - Release Date: 12/9/2006
                • mobydoc
                  Hy Chris ; Have you heard of the Chinese circumnavigation of the world prior to Christo Colo …and the Chinese buildings destroyed when America finished
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 10, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment

                             Hy Chris ;

                            Have you heard of the Chinese circumnavigation of the world

                         prior to  Christo  Colo …and the Chinese buildings  destroyed

                         when America finished  building  the Panama Cannel …is this what got

                       (Ferdinand  de-Lesseps )   incarcerated in a Swiss Mental Asylum  till he died  J

                       BTW  old son    Mike’s your man for Edgar Cayce … me… I’m wackier  than him …J

                        I love  white or black  racist lies  and I’m really into putting the boot into  unoriginal

                        repeaters  and those who think Cannibals had good tables manners J

                       (PS)  Would you like a Chinese  world map … sea -chart  mmm  J

                            prior  1400 centaury J

                     

                                   that old phart         Moby

                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                     

                    Moby,

                    I respect you for your views. But if you are referring to Edgar
                    Cayce, I too could go into a trance and with my knowledge of world
                    history spin some interesting tales which are hard to disprove. He
                    was a smart man and his readings are very interesting. But I am a
                    science guy and can therefore not acknowledge his trance induced
                    teachings.
                    Regarding the Hindu/Maya similarities, let me make it clear that
                    I don't believe in any transcontinental voyages prior to the
                    Spanish. However, I do have a Maya figure from
                    Jaina Island which
                    could be mistaken for a Hindu deity. There is plenty of potential
                    evidence but nothing conclusive. I'll post an image soon.

                    Chris

                    --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                    <aumsparky@. ..> wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > moby, how can we be certain? i believe the maya once were
                    advanced and noble, but that their culture declined. as to the dates
                    of the steps of their decline, all remains conjecture. ive little
                    confidence in current concensus.
                    > it seems reliable that a different race was the ruling elite.
                    this is based to the depictions of anatomical differences. so often
                    our experts become prematurely certain of their 'facts', and fail to
                    make proper tests to confirm or deny conclusions.
                    > they have found evidence that an uprising of the masses
                    occurred, wherein the rulers were exterminated - but when?
                    > lacking more positive proofs, i accept cayce, that human
                    sacrifices and blood rites began after 3000 bce, and the arrival of
                    lost tribes.
                    > it appears from andean legends that earth changes happened near
                    the same time, circa 3000 bce. a migration from peru into yucatan
                    likely occurred at that time, making it an inca province, as de la
                    vega gave.
                    > the mayan world underwent major changes at that time. the long-
                    count began, world view, and religion became a composite from several
                    peoples. are we certain that the elongated skull former ruling race
                    was still in power?
                    > chris, welcome to the discussion. plz share pics of your
                    collection when time allows. i too am a collector of mexican
                    artifacts. archive dont keep the pics ive shared, but our photo
                    section may be a good upload place.
                    >
                    > mike
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: mobydoc
                    > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 1:02 AM
                    > Subject: RE: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Apocalypto
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Of course they didn't butcher people .Judith J
                    >
                    > Welcome to the real world .of then L
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Moby
                    >
                    > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                    ------------ -
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Ordinarily I try to steer clear of cross posting that is opinion,
                    but while I have not seen Apocalypto, as a student of Mayan culture,
                    I am appalled at what Mitch describes in his Earthchanges Newsletter,
                    and I can only hope that this movie does not fare well.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > There is no question but that at the end of Mayan civilization,
                    many years after most of the major cities had gone back to the
                    jungle, and after the remnants of the culture had been heavily
                    infiltrated and influenced by other cultures, notably the Aztecs,
                    there were bloody excesses, but this was not who they were as a
                    civilization at its height.
                    >
                    > ~ Judith Marie
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > My Personal Review of 'Apocalypto'
                    >
                    > by Mitch Battros - ECM/ECTV
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > There are generally two distinct perspectives of the
                    Mayan culture. One is a culture of an astronomically advanced society
                    with a bewildering understanding of the sky and universe. Also of a
                    spiritually focused community with a passion of stewardship to "Gaia"
                    or Mother Earth.as with many indigenous tribes.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The second view of the Mayan culture is of a savage
                    backward people. A society of evil worship and human sacrifice. This
                    view also believes the Maya were wasteful stupid people quickly
                    devouring their surroundings and leading to their demise.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Mel Gibson has gone full throttle into the second
                    view of the Maya. So much so, towards the end of the movie we see the
                    Spanish ships docking on the shores of perhaps Guatemala or Belize.
                    The Spanish Inquisition had begun its toll on the Yucatan.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > This movie is filled with blood, and guts, and
                    beheadings, and cutting out hearts, and torture, and everything for
                    those who love this stuff will just have to see. Okay fine; go see it-
                    --But please remember this is HOLLYWOOD, not fact. I fear people will
                    come away from this filth thinking they have an accurate depiction of
                    history.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Gibson's disdain for anything other than his slant on
                    Christianity comes blasting through with a conscious intent to
                    sabotage all spiritual beliefs----except his own of course. At one
                    time I felt sorry for this knucklehead when he was charged with a DUI
                    and jailed. And who could forget his spewing of anti-Semite Jew
                    hating babble. Now I realize he just doesn't hate Jews, he hates
                    everybody who isn't Christian. Not just Christian, but "his kind of
                    Christian".
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > This movie put a sour taste in my mouth, and sadness
                    in my heart. Those who are less educated about this culture will
                    actually "cheer" when they see the Spanish vessels arrive off shore.
                    Of course the movie ends there not giving the story of what happened
                    next.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The Spanish Inquisition was led by Diego de Landa
                    Calderón (1524 - 1579) and was Bishop of Yucatán. Landa's Inquisition
                    showered a level of physical abuse upon the indigenous Maya that many
                    viewed as excessive, and was at the very least unusual. Scores of
                    Maya nobles were jailed pending interrogation, and large numbers of
                    Maya nobles and commoners were subjected to examination
                    under "hoisting." During hoisting, a victim's hands were bound and
                    looped over an extended line that was then raised until the victim's
                    entire body was suspended in the air. Often, stone weights were added
                    to the ankles or lashes applied to the back during interrogation.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Some contemporary observers were troubled by this
                    widespread use of torture. Crown fiat had earlier exempted indigenous
                    peoples from the authority of the Inquisition, on the grounds that
                    their understanding of Christianity was "too childish" to be held
                    culpable for heresies. Additionally, Landa dispensed with much of the
                    extensive formal procedure and documentation that accompanied Spanish
                    torture and interrogation.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Landa defended his actions by arguing that in the
                    process of rooting out idolatry, he had discovered evidence of human
                    sacrifice. One of the alleged victims, Mani encomendero Dasbatés, was
                    even found later to be alive.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Landa was sent back to Spain by Bishop Toral, to
                    stand trial for conducting an illegal Inquisition. His actions were
                    strongly condemned before the Council of the Indies. This resulted in
                    a "committee of doctors" being commissioned to investigate Landa's
                    alleged crimes. In 1569 the committee absolved Landa of his crimes.
                    Bishop Toral died in Mexico in 1571, allowing King Phillip II of
                    Spain to appoint Landa as the fourth-appointed bishop of Yucatán.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Mel Gibson you should be ashamed of yourself. Maybe
                    this is why you went on a binder after some years of sobriety. Living
                    a lie, and worse yet, fueling the flames of prejudice, I can better
                    understand why the taste and effect of beer and liquor was just too
                    tempting.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > http://www.earthcha ngestv.com/ newsletter. php
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                    ----------
                    >
                    >
                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date:
                    12/8/2006
                    >

                  • mike white
                    of course we hope all members stay with us, diversity of opinion is healthy, as long as we dont intentionally offend one another. respected scientists
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 11, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                       
                         of course we hope all members stay with us, diversity of opinion is healthy, as long as we dont intentionally offend one another. 
                         respected scientists sometimes access their right hemisphere.  isaac newton wrote many volumes on metaphysics.  einstein had blavatsky's 'secret doctrine' on his desk at the end of his life.  more than one knew something was true, then used science to prove it. 
                         awake cayce was a poorly educated simple man.  no way could he speak on the vast subjects that his readings detail.  personally, i would prefer to learn from a great soul who can access the akashic record, than to accept the guess of a phd unchallenged and unexamined. 
                         lets continue the discussion that brings us together.  the ships of columbus were small clumsy craft, barely seaworthy.  ancient ships were far better suited to cross oceans.  in a vault on giza, deposited at least 5,000 years ago are ships 170 feet long.  in the dredging of a chinese harbor, they brought up a rudder from an ancient ship that was over 40 feet tall.  roman trimarines were well-built vessels capable of crossing an ocean, using both sweeps and sails.  until the 19th c steam power, we moderns were less able to go far upstream in mighty rivers like the amazon and orinoco, than the ancients. 
                         how did java man get to java 1.5 mya, if there was no lemuria, and no ocean crossing?
                       
                      mike
                       
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 3:28 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Apocalypto - maya

                       
                         ive noted a similarity in architecture also, between yucatan and angkor wat, noting particularly the corbelled roofs.  so greater pacifica seemed to share an early high culture. 
                         our lads assign a date for the classic mayan era that is far different than others might give.  i tend to give more credance to the mystical sources than an academic would.  mexico is the melting pot of early cultures, as the diversity of styles and dogma indicates.  the blood sacrifices show a decline in religious thought, so perhaps we must look before 3000 bce for the higher culture, though what we came to know as mayan may have began at that time.  some of the pyramids and buildings may date from far earlier, but have been lumped together.   the same confused mixture of various tenets and dogma came together in religious thought and expression, so its pardonable for our researchers to have difficulty sorting it out. 
                       
                      mike
                       
                       


                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                      Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                      Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/581 - Release Date: 12/9/2006
                    • bruce3058
                      Mike, With a group called Precolumbian Inscriptions, I m certain that I m not in the wrong group at least as long as the group s name is indeed the group s
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 11, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Mike,

                        With a group called Precolumbian Inscriptions, I'm certain that
                        I'm not in the wrong group at least as long as the group's name is
                        indeed the group's interest. The truth is my only interest and I'm
                        looking forward to discussing the pre-Columbian cultures and writing
                        systems in depth.
                        As a child I greatly enjoyed reading about Cayce's trance induced
                        wisdom. I have been on a mission to understand the world's mysteries
                        since before that time. Surely you understand why I have a hard time
                        accepting Cayce in any other context other that finding it
                        interesting. Similarly, I find it impossible to accept any religious
                        ideals...because someone says (or said) it is so, does not make it
                        so. I see Cayce as an old time theorist, proposing many ideas in a
                        non-traditional method. But I won't criticize Edgar, I think he was
                        an interesting guy.
                        I would use caution in suggesting that people shouldn't listen to
                        the textbooks and should rather look at alternative theories. I'm
                        not saying I am 100% convinced that there wasn't transcontinental
                        crossing prior to the Spanish, but I haven't seen enough evidence to
                        convince me. I don't think questioning current beliefs is a bad
                        thing. However, the bigger problem to me is that we're discussing
                        only the final few thousand years of human development. By
                        discounting the validity of modern academic findings, I'm concerned
                        that some may discount science in general leading our species further
                        away from the truth. Fortunately, we have a fairly clear picture of
                        the earths history and species development including humans.
                        Unfortunately, half of Americans believe our world is only 7000 years
                        old and have no understanding that the earth rotates around the sun.
                        I guess they have a right to believe what they want. My point is
                        let's not convince people to throw out the baby with the bath water.
                        Maybe great minds need to look at all option. I'm certain that
                        Einstein had no delusions of becoming a star after death as if I
                        recall correctly Blavatsky's theosophical belief dictated.


                        Sincerely,

                        Chris

                        --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                        <aumsparky@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > of course we hope all members stay with us, diversity of opinion
                        is healthy, as long as we dont intentionally offend one another.
                        > respected scientists sometimes access their right hemisphere.
                        isaac newton wrote many volumes on metaphysics. einstein had
                        blavatsky's 'secret doctrine' on his desk at the end of his life.
                        more than one knew something was true, then used science to prove
                        it.
                        > awake cayce was a poorly educated simple man. no way could he
                        speak on the vast subjects that his readings detail. personally, i
                        would prefer to learn from a great soul who can access the akashic
                        record, than to accept the guess of a phd unchallenged and
                        unexamined.
                        > lets continue the discussion that brings us together. the ships
                        of columbus were small clumsy craft, barely seaworthy. ancient ships
                        were far better suited to cross oceans. in a vault on giza,
                        deposited at least 5,000 years ago are ships 170 feet long. in the
                        dredging of a chinese harbor, they brought up a rudder from an
                        ancient ship that was over 40 feet tall. roman trimarines were well-
                        built vessels capable of crossing an ocean, using both sweeps and
                        sails. until the 19th c steam power, we moderns were less able to go
                        far upstream in mighty rivers like the amazon and orinoco, than the
                        ancients.
                        > how did java man get to java 1.5 mya, if there was no lemuria,
                        and no ocean crossing?
                        >
                        > mike
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: mike white
                        > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 3:28 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Apocalypto - maya
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ive noted a similarity in architecture also, between yucatan
                        and angkor wat, noting particularly the corbelled roofs. so greater
                        pacifica seemed to share an early high culture.
                        > our lads assign a date for the classic mayan era that is far
                        different than others might give. i tend to give more credance to
                        the mystical sources than an academic would. mexico is the melting
                        pot of early cultures, as the diversity of styles and dogma
                        indicates. the blood sacrifices show a decline in religious thought,
                        so perhaps we must look before 3000 bce for the higher culture,
                        though what we came to know as mayan may have began at that time.
                        some of the pyramids and buildings may date from far earlier, but
                        have been lumped together. the same confused mixture of various
                        tenets and dogma came together in religious thought and expression,
                        so its pardonable for our researchers to have difficulty sorting it
                        out.
                        >
                        > mike
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                        ----------
                        >
                        >
                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                        > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                        > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/581 - Release Date:
                        12/9/2006
                        >
                      • bruce3058
                        Moby, I am familiar with the chinese school of thought. http://www.1421.tv/ The panama canal thing is new to me. A world map prior to 1400 would be
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 11, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Moby,

                          I am familiar with the chinese school of thought.

                          http://www.1421.tv/

                          The panama canal thing is new to me. A world map prior to 1400
                          would be appreciated. I can't name any cannibals with good table
                          manners...uhh perhaps the Donner Party.

                          Chris


                          --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mobydoc"
                          <patcobb@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hy Chris ;
                          >
                          > Have you heard of the Chinese circumnavigation of the world
                          >
                          > prior to Christo Colo …and the Chinese buildings destroyed
                          >
                          > when America finished building the Panama Cannel …is this
                          what
                          > got
                          >
                          > (Ferdinand de-Lesseps ) incarcerated in a Swiss Mental Asylum
                          > till he died :-)
                          >
                          > BTW old son Mike's your man for Edgar Cayce … me… I'm wackier
                          > than him …:-)
                          >
                          > I love white or black racist lies and I'm really into
                          putting the
                          > boot into unoriginal
                          >
                          > repeaters and those who think Cannibals had good tables
                          manners :-)
                          >
                          > (PS) Would you like a Chinese world map … sea -chart mmm :-)
                          >
                          > prior 1400 centaury :-)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > that old phart Moby
                          >
                          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                          ----
                          > ----------
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Moby,
                          >
                          > I respect you for your views. But if you are referring to Edgar
                          > Cayce, I too could go into a trance and with my knowledge of world
                          > history spin some interesting tales which are hard to disprove. He
                          > was a smart man and his readings are very interesting. But I am a
                          > science guy and can therefore not acknowledge his trance induced
                          > teachings.
                          > Regarding the Hindu/Maya similarities, let me make it clear that
                          > I don't believe in any transcontinental voyages prior to the
                          > Spanish. However, I do have a Maya figure from Jaina Island which
                          > could be mistaken for a Hindu deity. There is plenty of potential
                          > evidence but nothing conclusive. I'll post an image soon.
                          >
                          > Chris
                          >
                          > --- In Precolumbian_
                          > <mailto:Precolumbian_Inscriptions%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                          > <aumsparky@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > moby, how can we be certain? i believe the maya once were
                          > advanced and noble, but that their culture declined. as to the
                          dates
                          > of the steps of their decline, all remains conjecture. ive little
                          > confidence in current concensus.
                          > > it seems reliable that a different race was the ruling elite.
                          > this is based to the depictions of anatomical differences. so often
                          > our experts become prematurely certain of their 'facts', and fail
                          to
                          > make proper tests to confirm or deny conclusions.
                          > > they have found evidence that an uprising of the masses
                          > occurred, wherein the rulers were exterminated - but when?
                          > > lacking more positive proofs, i accept cayce, that human
                          > sacrifices and blood rites began after 3000 bce, and the arrival of
                          > lost tribes.
                          > > it appears from andean legends that earth changes happened near
                          > the same time, circa 3000 bce. a migration from peru into yucatan
                          > likely occurred at that time, making it an inca province, as de la
                          > vega gave.
                          > > the mayan world underwent major changes at that time. the long-
                          > count began, world view, and religion became a composite from
                          several
                          > peoples. are we certain that the elongated skull former ruling race
                          > was still in power?
                          > > chris, welcome to the discussion. plz share pics of your
                          > collection when time allows. i too am a collector of mexican
                          > artifacts. archive dont keep the pics ive shared, but our photo
                          > section may be a good upload place.
                          > >
                          > > mike
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: mobydoc
                          > > To: Precolumbian_ <mailto:Precolumbian_Inscriptions%
                          40yahoogroups.com>
                          > Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 1:02 AM
                          > > Subject: RE: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Apocalypto
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Of course they didn't butcher people .Judith J
                          > >
                          > > Welcome to the real world .of then L
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Moby
                          > >
                          > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                          > -------------
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Ordinarily I try to steer clear of cross posting that is opinion,
                          > but while I have not seen Apocalypto, as a student of Mayan
                          culture,
                          > I am appalled at what Mitch describes in his Earthchanges
                          Newsletter,
                          > and I can only hope that this movie does not fare well.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > There is no question but that at the end of Mayan civilization,
                          > many years after most of the major cities had gone back to the
                          > jungle, and after the remnants of the culture had been heavily
                          > infiltrated and influenced by other cultures, notably the Aztecs,
                          > there were bloody excesses, but this was not who they were as a
                          > civilization at its height.
                          > >
                          > > ~ Judith Marie
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > My Personal Review of 'Apocalypto'
                          > >
                          > > by Mitch Battros - ECM/ECTV
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > There are generally two distinct perspectives of the
                          > Mayan culture. One is a culture of an astronomically advanced
                          society
                          > with a bewildering understanding of the sky and universe. Also of a
                          > spiritually focused community with a passion of stewardship
                          to "Gaia"
                          > or Mother Earth.as with many indigenous tribes.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > The second view of the Mayan culture is of a savage
                          > backward people. A society of evil worship and human sacrifice.
                          This
                          > view also believes the Maya were wasteful stupid people quickly
                          > devouring their surroundings and leading to their demise.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Mel Gibson has gone full throttle into the second
                          > view of the Maya. So much so, towards the end of the movie we see
                          the
                          > Spanish ships docking on the shores of perhaps Guatemala or Belize.
                          > The Spanish Inquisition had begun its toll on the Yucatan.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > This movie is filled with blood, and guts, and
                          > beheadings, and cutting out hearts, and torture, and everything for
                          > those who love this stuff will just have to see. Okay fine; go see
                          it-
                          > --But please remember this is HOLLYWOOD, not fact. I fear people
                          will
                          > come away from this filth thinking they have an accurate depiction
                          of
                          > history.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Gibson's disdain for anything other than his slant on
                          > Christianity comes blasting through with a conscious intent to
                          > sabotage all spiritual beliefs----except his own of course. At one
                          > time I felt sorry for this knucklehead when he was charged with a
                          DUI
                          > and jailed. And who could forget his spewing of anti-Semite Jew
                          > hating babble. Now I realize he just doesn't hate Jews, he hates
                          > everybody who isn't Christian. Not just Christian, but "his kind of
                          > Christian".
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > This movie put a sour taste in my mouth, and sadness
                          > in my heart. Those who are less educated about this culture will
                          > actually "cheer" when they see the Spanish vessels arrive off
                          shore.
                          > Of course the movie ends there not giving the story of what
                          happened
                          > next.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > The Spanish Inquisition was led by Diego de Landa
                          > Calderón (1524 - 1579) and was Bishop of Yucatán. Landa's
                          Inquisition
                          > showered a level of physical abuse upon the indigenous Maya that
                          many
                          > viewed as excessive, and was at the very least unusual. Scores of
                          > Maya nobles were jailed pending interrogation, and large numbers of
                          > Maya nobles and commoners were subjected to examination
                          > under "hoisting." During hoisting, a victim's hands were bound and
                          > looped over an extended line that was then raised until the
                          victim's
                          > entire body was suspended in the air. Often, stone weights were
                          added
                          > to the ankles or lashes applied to the back during interrogation.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Some contemporary observers were troubled by this
                          > widespread use of torture. Crown fiat had earlier exempted
                          indigenous
                          > peoples from the authority of the Inquisition, on the grounds that
                          > their understanding of Christianity was "too childish" to be held
                          > culpable for heresies. Additionally, Landa dispensed with much of
                          the
                          > extensive formal procedure and documentation that accompanied
                          Spanish
                          > torture and interrogation.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Landa defended his actions by arguing that in the
                          > process of rooting out idolatry, he had discovered evidence of
                          human
                          > sacrifice. One of the alleged victims, Mani encomendero Dasbatés,
                          was
                          > even found later to be alive.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Landa was sent back to Spain by Bishop Toral, to
                          > stand trial for conducting an illegal Inquisition. His actions were
                          > strongly condemned before the Council of the Indies. This resulted
                          in
                          > a "committee of doctors" being commissioned to investigate Landa's
                          > alleged crimes. In 1569 the committee absolved Landa of his crimes.
                          > Bishop Toral died in Mexico in 1571, allowing King Phillip II of
                          > Spain to appoint Landa as the fourth-appointed bishop of Yucatán.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Mel Gibson you should be ashamed of yourself. Maybe
                          > this is why you went on a binder after some years of sobriety.
                          Living
                          > a lie, and worse yet, fueling the flames of prejudice, I can better
                          > understand why the taste and effect of beer and liquor was just too
                          > tempting.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > http://www.earthcha <http://www.earthchangestv.com/newsletter.php>
                          > ngestv.com/newsletter.php
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                          > ----------
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                          > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                          > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date:
                          > 12/8/2006
                          > >
                          >
                        • bruce3058
                          Mike, During the pleistocene, man could have walked to Java as sea levels were much lower. Chris ... is healthy, as long as we dont intentionally offend one
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 11, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Mike,

                            During the pleistocene, man could have walked to Java as sea
                            levels were much lower.

                            Chris


                            --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                            <aumsparky@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > of course we hope all members stay with us, diversity of opinion
                            is healthy, as long as we dont intentionally offend one another.
                            > respected scientists sometimes access their right hemisphere.
                            isaac newton wrote many volumes on metaphysics. einstein had
                            blavatsky's 'secret doctrine' on his desk at the end of his life.
                            more than one knew something was true, then used science to prove
                            it.
                            > awake cayce was a poorly educated simple man. no way could he
                            speak on the vast subjects that his readings detail. personally, i
                            would prefer to learn from a great soul who can access the akashic
                            record, than to accept the guess of a phd unchallenged and
                            unexamined.
                            > lets continue the discussion that brings us together. the ships
                            of columbus were small clumsy craft, barely seaworthy. ancient ships
                            were far better suited to cross oceans. in a vault on giza,
                            deposited at least 5,000 years ago are ships 170 feet long. in the
                            dredging of a chinese harbor, they brought up a rudder from an
                            ancient ship that was over 40 feet tall. roman trimarines were well-
                            built vessels capable of crossing an ocean, using both sweeps and
                            sails. until the 19th c steam power, we moderns were less able to go
                            far upstream in mighty rivers like the amazon and orinoco, than the
                            ancients.
                            > how did java man get to java 1.5 mya, if there was no lemuria,
                            and no ocean crossing?
                            >
                            > mike
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: mike white
                            > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 3:28 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Apocalypto - maya
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ive noted a similarity in architecture also, between yucatan
                            and angkor wat, noting particularly the corbelled roofs. so greater
                            pacifica seemed to share an early high culture.
                            > our lads assign a date for the classic mayan era that is far
                            different than others might give. i tend to give more credance to
                            the mystical sources than an academic would. mexico is the melting
                            pot of early cultures, as the diversity of styles and dogma
                            indicates. the blood sacrifices show a decline in religious thought,
                            so perhaps we must look before 3000 bce for the higher culture,
                            though what we came to know as mayan may have began at that time.
                            some of the pyramids and buildings may date from far earlier, but
                            have been lumped together. the same confused mixture of various
                            tenets and dogma came together in religious thought and expression,
                            so its pardonable for our researchers to have difficulty sorting it
                            out.
                            >
                            > mike
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                            ----------
                            >
                            >
                            > No virus found in this incoming message.
                            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                            > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/581 - Release Date:
                            12/9/2006
                            >
                          • mobydoc
                            . Chris ; What the world
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 11, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment

                              .


                              Chris ;

                                What the world needs are a few more Hannibal  Lectures  with

                                taste for unoriginal  pan-bademics  --- esch

                               

                                                     Moby

                            • reinoud dejonge
                              Bruce, You write: I m not saying I am 100% convinced that there wasn t transcontinental crossing prior to the Spanish, but I haven t seen enough evidence to
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 11, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment

                                Bruce,

                                You write: "I'm not saying I am 100% convinced that there wasn't transcontinental
                                crossing prior to the Spanish, but I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me."

                                I don’t think there is another member in our group who agrees with this statement.

                                There are hundreds of books which argue against this statement, with a hugh amount

                                of original material confirming it. You should visit a simple library and look around!

                                Reinoud de Jonge

                                The Netherlands

                                 


                                To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                From: bruce3058@...
                                Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:09:56 +0000
                                Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: Apocalypto - maya

                                Mike,

                                With a group called Precolumbian Inscriptions, I'm certain that
                                I'm not in the wrong group at least as long as the group's name is
                                indeed the group's interest. The truth is my only interest and I'm
                                looking forward to discussing the pre-Columbian cultures and writing
                                systems in depth.
                                As a child I greatly enjoyed reading about Cayce's trance induced
                                wisdom. I have been on a mission to understand the world's mysteries
                                since before that time. Surely you understand why I have a hard time
                                accepting Cayce in any other context other that finding it
                                interesting. Similarly, I find it impossible to accept any religious
                                ideals...because someone says (or said) it is so, does not make it
                                so. I see Cayce as an old time theorist, proposing many ideas in a
                                non-traditional method. But I won't criticize Edgar, I think he was
                                an interesting guy.
                                I would use caution in suggesting that people shouldn't listen to
                                the textbooks and should rather look at alternative theories. I'm
                                not saying I am 100% convinced that there wasn't transcontinental
                                crossing prior to the Spanish, but I haven't seen enough evidence to
                                convince me. I don't think questioning current beliefs is a bad
                                thing. However, the bigger problem to me is that we're discussing
                                only the final few thousand years of human development. By
                                discounting the validity of modern academic findings, I'm concerned
                                that some may discount science in general leading our species further
                                away from the truth. Fortunately, we have a fairly clear picture of
                                the earths history and species development including humans.
                                Unfortunately, half of Americans believe our world is only 7000 years
                                old and have no understanding that the earth rotates around the sun.
                                I guess they have a right to believe what they want. My point is
                                let's not convince people to throw out the baby with the bath water.
                                Maybe great minds need to look at all option. I'm certain that
                                Einstein had no delusions of becoming a star after death as if I
                                recall correctly Blavatsky's theosophical belief dictated.


                                Sincerely,

                                Chris

                                --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                                <aumsparky@. ..> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > of course we hope all members stay with us, diversity of opinion
                                is healthy, as long as we dont intentionally offend one another.
                                > respected scientists sometimes access their right hemisphere.
                                isaac newton wrote many volumes on metaphysics. einstein had
                                blavatsky's 'secret doctrine' on his desk at the end of his life.
                                more than one knew something was true, then used science to prove
                                it.
                                > awake cayce was a poorly educated simple man. no way could he
                                speak on the vast subjects that his readings detail. personally, i
                                would prefer to learn from a great soul who can access the akashic
                                record, than to accept the guess of a phd unchallenged and
                                unexamined.
                                > lets continue the discussion that brings us together. the ships
                                of columbus were small clumsy craft, barely seaworthy. ancient ships
                                were far better suited to cross oceans. in a vault on giza,
                                deposited at least 5,000 years ago are ships 170 feet long. in the
                                dredging of a chinese harbor, they brought up a rudder from an
                                ancient ship that was over 40 feet tall. roman trimarines were well-
                                built vessels capable of crossing an ocean, using both sweeps and
                                sails. until the 19th c steam power, we moderns were less able to go
                                far upstream in mighty rivers like the amazon and orinoco, than the
                                ancients.
                                > how did java man get to java 1.5 mya, if there was no lemuria,
                                and no ocean crossing?
                                >
                                > mike
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: mike white
                                > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 3:28 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Apocalypto - maya
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ive noted a similarity in architecture also, between yucatan
                                and angkor wat, noting particularly the corbelled roofs. so greater
                                pacifica seemed to share an early high culture.
                                > our lads assign a date for the classic mayan era that is far
                                different than others might give. i tend to give more credance to
                                the mystical sources than an academic would. mexico is the melting
                                pot of early cultures, as the diversity of styles and dogma
                                indicates. the blood sacrifices show a decline in religious thought,
                                so perhaps we must look before 3000 bce for the higher culture,
                                though what we came to know as mayan may have began at that time.
                                some of the pyramids and buildings may date from far earlier, but
                                have been lumped together. the same confused mixture of various
                                tenets and dogma came together in religious thought and expression,
                                so its pardonable for our researchers to have difficulty sorting it
                                out.
                                >
                                > mike
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                ----------
                                >
                                >
                                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/581 - Release Date:
                                12/9/2006
                                >




                                Met MSN Spaces kun je per e-mail je weblog bijwerken. Publiceer leuke verhalen, foto's en meer! Het is gratis! Het is gratis!
                              • mike white
                                hi chris, all it did surprise us, and alarm us, that you think there were no ocean crossings before columbus. it would disrupt the group if a member
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 11, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                   
                                  hi chris, all
                                   
                                     it did surprise us, and alarm us, that you think there were no ocean crossings before columbus.  it would disrupt the group if a member challenged every post on this issue.  we can agree to disagree.  
                                     several important books have been reviewed and discussed by the group over the years.  yahoo has improved the search of the archive feature, to make the tool very useful.   
                                     i would point you to see jim bailey's 'sailing to paradise'.  dr hapgood's 'maps of the ancient sea kings'.    
                                     the group has a disclaimer in place, that posts and links do not always represent the opinion of all members.  we do not debate on this list, each merely submits an opinion.  often controversial issues are raised, and allowed to pass without provoking contrary comment.  im fully aware that many times my ideas are the minority opinion, and i thank others for being patient and allowing me to state them.  lack of opposition does not mean that all members agree with the speaker.  we each sift thru the offerings, and accept those kernels of truth that suit us.  hopefully, remarks lead to further study, and nothing is accepted verbatim.  most have read the academics, and profit from it, but its healthy to weigh each issue brought forth, and not to parrot one simply because  he has good credentials, and ignore another due to the lacking of them.  there are several academics and phd holders among the members, and we respect and tolerate each other.  they are never meant when we grumble.  lol
                                   
                                  mike
                                   
                                   
                                • bruce3058
                                  Mr Dejonge, Attacking people who do not agree with you is not very nice. Maybe I should suggest you visit a simple library and avoid the Pseudo-science
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 11, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Mr Dejonge,

                                    Attacking people who do not agree with you is not very nice.

                                    Maybe I should suggest you visit a simple library and avoid the
                                    Pseudo-science section. But that wouldn't be very nice either and I
                                    prefer to be nice.

                                    Please treat me with the same respect you would expect.

                                    Kind Regards,

                                    Chris

                                    --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, reinoud dejonge
                                    <Drsrmdejonge@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Bruce,
                                    > You write: "I'm not saying I am 100% convinced that there wasn't
                                    transcontinental crossing prior to the Spanish, but I haven't seen
                                    enough evidence to convince me."
                                    > I don't think there is another member in our group who agrees with
                                    this statement.
                                    > There are hundreds of books which argue against this statement,
                                    with a hugh amount
                                    > of original material confirming it. You should visit a simple
                                    library and look around!
                                    > Reinoud de Jonge
                                    > The Netherlands
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@...: bruce3058@...: Mon, 11 Dec 2006
                                    18:09:56 +0000Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: Apocalypto -
                                    maya
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Mike,With a group called Precolumbian Inscriptions, I'm certain
                                    that I'm not in the wrong group at least as long as the group's name
                                    is indeed the group's interest. The truth is my only interest and I'm
                                    looking forward to discussing the pre-Columbian cultures and writing
                                    systems in depth.As a child I greatly enjoyed reading about Cayce's
                                    trance induced wisdom. I have been on a mission to understand the
                                    world's mysteries since before that time. Surely you understand why I
                                    have a hard time accepting Cayce in any other context other that
                                    finding it interesting. Similarly, I find it impossible to accept any
                                    religious ideals...because someone says (or said) it is so, does not
                                    make it so. I see Cayce as an old time theorist, proposing many ideas
                                    in a non-traditional method. But I won't criticize Edgar, I think he
                                    was an interesting guy.I would use caution in suggesting that people
                                    shouldn't listen to the textbooks and should rather look at
                                    alternative theories. I'm not saying I am 100% convinced that there
                                    wasn't transcontinental crossing prior to the Spanish, but I haven't
                                    seen enough evidence to convince me. I don't think questioning
                                    current beliefs is a bad thing. However, the bigger problem to me is
                                    that we're discussing only the final few thousand years of human
                                    development. By discounting the validity of modern academic findings,
                                    I'm concerned that some may discount science in general leading our
                                    species further away from the truth. Fortunately, we have a fairly
                                    clear picture of the earths history and species development including
                                    humans. Unfortunately, half of Americans believe our world is only
                                    7000 years old and have no understanding that the earth rotates
                                    around the sun. I guess they have a right to believe what they want.
                                    My point is let's not convince people to throw out the baby with the
                                    bath water.Maybe great minds need to look at all option. I'm certain
                                    that Einstein had no delusions of becoming a star after death as if I
                                    recall correctly Blavatsky's theosophical belief
                                    dictated.Sincerely,Chris--- In
                                    Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white" <aumsparky@>
                                    wrote:>> > of course we hope all members stay with us, diversity of
                                    opinion is healthy, as long as we dont intentionally offend one
                                    another. > respected scientists sometimes access their right
                                    hemisphere. isaac newton wrote many volumes on metaphysics. einstein
                                    had blavatsky's 'secret doctrine' on his desk at the end of his life.
                                    more than one knew something was true, then used science to prove it.
                                    > awake cayce was a poorly educated simple man. no way could he speak
                                    on the vast subjects that his readings detail. personally, i would
                                    prefer to learn from a great soul who can access the akashic record,
                                    than to accept the guess of a phd unchallenged and unexamined. > lets
                                    continue the discussion that brings us together. the ships of
                                    columbus were small clumsy craft, barely seaworthy. ancient ships
                                    were far better suited to cross oceans. in a vault on giza, deposited
                                    at least 5,000 years ago are ships 170 feet long. in the dredging of
                                    a chinese harbor, they brought up a rudder from an ancient ship that
                                    was over 40 feet tall. roman trimarines were well-built vessels
                                    capable of crossing an ocean, using both sweeps and sails. until the
                                    19th c steam power, we moderns were less able to go far upstream in
                                    mighty rivers like the amazon and orinoco, than the ancients. > how
                                    did java man get to java 1.5 mya, if there was no lemuria, and no
                                    ocean crossing?> > mike> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From:
                                    mike white > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com > Sent:
                                    Sunday, December 10, 2006 3:28 PM> Subject: Re:
                                    [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Apocalypto - maya> > > > > ive noted a
                                    similarity in architecture also, between yucatan and angkor wat,
                                    noting particularly the corbelled roofs. so greater pacifica seemed
                                    to share an early high culture. > our lads assign a date for the
                                    classic mayan era that is far different than others might give. i
                                    tend to give more credance to the mystical sources than an academic
                                    would. mexico is the melting pot of early cultures, as the diversity
                                    of styles and dogma indicates. the blood sacrifices show a decline in
                                    religious thought, so perhaps we must look before 3000 bce for the
                                    higher culture, though what we came to know as mayan may have began
                                    at that time. some of the pyramids and buildings may date from far
                                    earlier, but have been lumped together. the same confused mixture of
                                    various tenets and dogma came together in religious thought and
                                    expression, so its pardonable for our researchers to have difficulty
                                    sorting it out. > > mike> > > > > > > --------------------------------
                                    ------------------------------------> > > No virus found in this
                                    incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.1.409 /
                                    Virus Database: 268.15.15/581 - Release Date: 12/9/2006>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > _________________________________________________________________
                                    > Probeer Live.com: jouw leven online met nieuws, sport, weer en nog
                                    veel meer.
                                    > http://www.live.com/getstarted
                                    >
                                  • bruce3058
                                    Mike, I have a very open mind and I am open to other views. To be honest, I didn t review the group s postings much but went with the group s name as an
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 11, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Mike,

                                      I have a very open mind and I am open to other views. To be
                                      honest, I didn't review the group's postings much but went with the
                                      group's name as an indication as to what views would be posted. I
                                      certainly don't want to disrupt the group, as I said before...all I
                                      want is the truth...whatever that may be.
                                      I'm not sure if my last posting will appear or be censored. I
                                      can tell you this if I am attacked, I will attack back. It's human
                                      nature. However, my views are not extraordinary or eccentric and I
                                      try to get along with everybody.
                                      Go out and take a survey anywhere in the world and try to get 238
                                      people to disagree with my mainstream views...it's gonna take some
                                      time. That doesn't mean that I'm right but I'm far from the
                                      minority. I just want to discuss pre-Columbian glyphs and writing
                                      with no preconceived notions or slants.

                                      Chris




                                      --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                                      <aumsparky@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > hi chris, all
                                      >
                                      > it did surprise us, and alarm us, that you think there were no
                                      ocean crossings before columbus. it would disrupt the group if a
                                      member challenged every post on this issue. we can agree to
                                      disagree.
                                      > several important books have been reviewed and discussed by the
                                      group over the years. yahoo has improved the search of the archive
                                      feature, to make the tool very useful.
                                      > i would point you to see jim bailey's 'sailing to paradise'. dr
                                      hapgood's 'maps of the ancient sea kings'.
                                      > the group has a disclaimer in place, that posts and links do not
                                      always represent the opinion of all members. we do not debate on
                                      this list, each merely submits an opinion. often controversial
                                      issues are raised, and allowed to pass without provoking contrary
                                      comment. im fully aware that many times my ideas are the minority
                                      opinion, and i thank others for being patient and allowing me to
                                      state them. lack of opposition does not mean that all members agree
                                      with the speaker. we each sift thru the offerings, and accept those
                                      kernels of truth that suit us. hopefully, remarks lead to further
                                      study, and nothing is accepted verbatim. most have read the
                                      academics, and profit from it, but its healthy to weigh each issue
                                      brought forth, and not to parrot one simply because he has good
                                      credentials, and ignore another due to the lacking of them. there
                                      are several academics and phd holders among the members, and we
                                      respect and tolerate each other. they are never meant when we
                                      grumble. lol
                                      >
                                      > mike
                                      >
                                    • mike white
                                      Dr Dejonge was a bit harsh. lets move on, with a warm welcome to chris. not much has been said on the symbolism and meaning of scripts that are recognized as
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Dec 11, 2006
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                                           Dr Dejonge was a bit harsh.  lets move on, with a warm welcome to chris. 
                                           not much has been said on the symbolism and meaning of scripts that are recognized as native american.  we welcome any input upon this.  epigraphy is a fairly new science, and there seems to be few experts who devote themselves to transliterating ancient symbols and writing.  we have invited linguists to join us, with little response.  recently, a major breakthru did occur, when what were first thought to be abstract symbols, showed themselves to be a writing system, when more examples were found.  it would be incredible if great public works could have been built without a writing system. 
                                          
                                        mike
                                         
                                         
                                      • mobydoc
                                        . G-day Mike and all the
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Dec 11, 2006
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                                          .

                                           G-day Mike  and all the group ;

                                              I sent you all a(Chinese World Map )


                                          __,I have  ZoneAlarm  covering all my E/Mails
                                          J

                                                 in and out …up and down -plus sideways J_.

                                           

                                                                     regards    all    Moby

                                          _,___

                                        • bruce3058
                                          Mike/All, Yes he was and it was not necessary for him to be condescending. Moving on... Teotihuacan is a great example of a city which had major public works
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Dec 11, 2006
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                                            Mike/All,

                                            Yes he was and it was not necessary for him to be condescending.
                                            Moving on... Teotihuacan is a great example of a city which had
                                            major public works with very little writing. It's debated as to the
                                            extent of the writing and I believe there was more written language
                                            than is presently acknowledged. In fact, it seems to me that the
                                            large incensarios which were individually made in government
                                            workshops were in fact covered with symbiology which any literate
                                            citizen could understand. Perhaps not a phonetic alphabet, rather a
                                            grouping of symbols which indicated the bloodline, status, craft or
                                            trade and number of individuals in the apartment compound. It's a
                                            fascinating culture which in my opinion has not been investigated
                                            very thoroughly due to limited resources in Mexico.

                                            Chris




                                            --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                                            <aumsparky@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Dr Dejonge was a bit harsh. lets move on, with a warm welcome
                                            to chris.
                                            > not much has been said on the symbolism and meaning of scripts
                                            that are recognized as native american. we welcome any input upon
                                            this. epigraphy is a fairly new science, and there seems to be few
                                            experts who devote themselves to transliterating ancient symbols and
                                            writing. we have invited linguists to join us, with little
                                            response. recently, a major breakthru did occur, when what were
                                            first thought to be abstract symbols, showed themselves to be a
                                            writing system, when more examples were found. it would be
                                            incredible if great public works could have been built without a
                                            writing system.
                                            >
                                            > mike
                                            >
                                          • Phil Whitley
                                            Chris, I only know of Teotihuacan what I have read on-line. Wasn t the site already deserted when the Aztec inhabited the area? I believe it was them who named
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Dec 12, 2006
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                                              Chris, I only know of Teotihuacan what I have read on-line. Wasn't the site already deserted when the Aztec inhabited the area? I believe it was them who named the 'Temple of the Sun", etc. and called it the "Place of the Gods".. I like your idea of the symbiology which could be read by the citizenry, rather than just the priests and high authorities.

                                              Phil

                                              ============

                                              bruce3058 wrote:

                                              Mike/All,

                                              Yes he was and it was not necessary for him to be condescending.
                                              Moving on... Teotihuacan is a great example of a city which had
                                              major public works with very little writing. It's debated as to the
                                              extent of the writing and I believe there was more written language
                                              than is presently acknowledged. In fact, it seems to me that the
                                              large incensarios which were individually made in government
                                              workshops were in fact covered with symbiology which any literate
                                              citizen could understand. Perhaps not a phonetic alphabet, rather a
                                              grouping of symbols which indicated the bloodline, status, craft or
                                              trade and number of individuals in the apartment compound. It's a
                                              fascinating culture which in my opinion has not been investigated
                                              very thoroughly due to limited resources in Mexico.

                                              Chris



                                            • Phil Whitley
                                              The following article was posted today on Archaeologica.com I have always held that we should pay close attention to the indigenous legends and myths, for they
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Dec 13, 2006
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                                                The following article was posted today on Archaeologica.com

                                                I have always held that we should pay close attention to the indigenous legends and myths, for they hold truths that, with a little imagination, can be clues to the real story—the Creation Myths, the Flood Myths, etc. that are reflected around the world ain't just bedtime stories!

                                                Field Museum scientists solve riddle of mysterious faces on South Pacific artifacts

                                                [quote]Terrell and Schechter's discovery suggests that a folktale recorded by others on this coast in the early 1970s—a story about a great sea turtle (the mother of all sea turtles) and the origins long ago of the first island, the first man, and the first woman on earth—might be thousands of years old. This legend may once have been as spiritually important to Pacific Islanders as the Biblical story of Adam and Eve has been in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

                                                "Nothing we had been doing in New Guinea for years had prepared us for this discovery," Terrell explained. "We have now been able to describe for the first time four kinds of prehistoric pottery from the Sepik coast that when considered in series fill the temporal gap between practices and beliefs in Lapita times and the present day.

                                                "A plausible reason for the persistence of this iconography is that it has referenced ideas about the living and the dead, the human and the divine, and the individual and society that remained socially and spiritually profound and worthy of expression long after the demise of Lapita as a distinct ceramic style," Terrell added. [/quote]

                                                Brew

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