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Re: peruvian antiquities

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  • michael
    there is an anomaly of anatomy that all three races of peru share, an interparietal bone. usually seen in ruminants and carnivores, a triangular skull plate
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 10, 2006
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      there is an anomaly of anatomy that all three races of peru share,
      an interparietal bone. usually seen in ruminants and carnivores, a
      triangular skull plate at rear.

      http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?
      c=moa;cc=moa;idno=afk5502.0001.001;frm=frameset;view=image;seq=63;page
      =root;size=s



      --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "michael"
      <infoplz@...> wrote:
      >
      > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Fw: [Ancient-Mysteries]
      > dolichocephalic skulls
      >
      > i had trouble including the jpg, so use link plz ...
      >
      > dr tschudi tells of an ancient manuscript by votan had been
      > preserved in a cave. it seems to tell of votan coming here from
      near
      > tangiers.
      > tschudi found three types of skulls, denoting three races lived
      in
      > ancient peru. we must respect his comments on anatomy. this is
      > mainly why ive looked for this book, to read what he thought of the
      > elongated skulls. even with this learned man, we must keep our
      eyes
      > upon the facts brought forth, and not upon his conclusions, some of
      > which seem ill-founded, and lacking proofs sufficient to draw a
      > conclusion. like some others, tschudi thinks the inca were
      aymara.
      > the inca would not have chosen quechua for a common language, had
      > they been aymara. imho, plus a few reports which survived the
      > censors, to reveal that the inca were white.
      > author tells of jews living in peru in precolumbian times.
      > the entire book is of interest to this group, and is highly
      > reccomended.
      >
      > http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?
      >
      c=moa;cc=moa;idno=afk5502.0001.001;frm=frameset;view=image;seq=56;page
      > =root;size=s
      >
      > i hope he included the paracas skulls in the hundreds he
      studied.
      > the presence of natural elongated skulls alongside inca relics,
      > tends to discredit recent dates assigned the inca culture. these
      > skulls usually date closer to 10,000 bce.
      > tschudi was expert on anatomy, and he was certain that the early
      > dolichocephalic skulls were natural, and those from mechanical
      means
      > are easily determined.
      > here they say 'huaca' is a place of interment. de la vega said
      > huaca meant holy place, temple or shrine. people do prefer being
      > buried in holy places. perhaps this explains the change of meaning
      > from 1560 down to 1850 ce.
      > lets face it, most of those buried in inca times were aymara
      and
      > quechua. the inca were few in number, and their dead were probably
      > not deposited in the cemeteries. i bet the frozen children found
      on
      > the peaks, certainly inca, more resemble the quechua than the
      aymara,
      > if either.
      > here is the foetus in the womb, already shaped. strange to see
      > teeth on this baby!
      >
      > http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?
      >
      c=moa;cc=moa;idno=afk5502.0001.001;frm=frameset;view=image;seq=60;page
      > =root;size=s
      >
      > see copy in our photo section
      >
      > mike
      >
    • Pat Cobb
      Hy Hy Mike et al ; Went to the folder .but YAHOO said the cupboard was bare :-). Organic robots again :-) or me :-) Peace or little pieces Pat/Moby
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 11, 2006
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        Hy

        Hy Mike et al ;

         Went to the folder …but YAHOO

        said the cupboard was bare  J

          Organic robots again J or me J

         

            Peace or little pieces       Pat/Moby

      • michael
        hi pat, all see womb pic here http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions/photos/brow se/f5b8 page before, author admitted that de la vega was
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 11, 2006
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          hi pat, all

          see womb pic here
          http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions/photos/brow
          se/f5b8


          page before, author admitted that de la vega was the greatest
          monument in peruvian history literature. then he unloads both
          barrels to say de la vega was not impartial, and that he falsified
          things to glorify the royal inca line.
          i disagree, i think vega was one of our best sources for the
          truth. i think he was factual, and only doubting him when he claimed
          the inca built sacsayhuaman. imho, they merely added to that
          pile.
          http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?
          c=moa;cc=moa;idno=afk5502.0001.001;frm=frameset;view=image;seq=72;page
          =root;size=s

          i know, i expected greater things of tschudi. much truth is
          gathered by author, if you ignore some of his conclusions. even he
          contradicts some of them, as to direction of travel, and place of
          origin for emigrants to the americas. it shows everybody has
          difficulty being impartial, the answer is the resultant of all we
          believe. when conclusions are reached, that the proofs dont
          necessarily warrant, one has lost impartiality, and logical
          scientific method.
          we need science, and it is a measure for worldy things, but a
          balanced outlook requires consideration from the spiritual point of
          view. the mystics tell of the final days of atlantis, that there
          were two factions, the evil sons of belial scientists, and the law of
          one spiritual-minded people. how like the dispute between evolution
          vs creation.

          mike



          --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "Pat Cobb "
          <patcobb@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hy
          >
          > Hy Mike et al ;
          >
          > Went to the folder .but YAHOO
          >
          > said the cupboard was bare :-).
          >
          > Organic robots again :-) or me :-)
          >
          >
          >
          > Peace or little pieces Pat/Moby
          >
        • mike white
          p105 the ancient peruvians had two forms of writing : one, and certainly the most ancient, consisted in a species of a hieroglyphic characters; the other in
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 12, 2006
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            p105
             
               'the ancient peruvians had two forms of writing : one, and certainly the most ancient, consisted in a species of a hieroglyphic characters; the other in knots, made on threads of divers colors.' 
               many works on quechia were written in the 16th and 17th c in spanish.  he lists these. 
              
            inscription or petroglyphs, see huaytara on granite, 2 pages of images 
            hieoroglyph manuscripts on plantain found at sacramento. 
             
                china, mexico, and canada also used a form of quipu.  i wonder if ogam relates to quipu?  both have a base line, with staggered offshoots.  both could contain history, or poetry, as likely as a numerical ledger.   another author de poma shows an abacas in a painting of an inca.   we know the american peanut made it to china very early.  the beni area has ancient irrigation works, with asian relics insitu.  we should assume that man crossed the oceans from the earliest times.  this generation actually, to some, begins with noah, not adam.  noah gives man a boat description at the start of our age.  its ignorant to imagine all early cultures were primitive and crude.  civilization is a fragile thing, all it takes is a breakdown of law, or the food supply, to throw us way back.  invasion or plague destroyed many high cultures.  logically, it has likely risen and fell countless times, and ours is nothing to brag about. 
               author gives a technical description of andean grammar and idioms.  quechua can express more concisely than many modern languages.  they seem to be a very mature culture, millennias in growth. 
             
            mike
             
          • jdaintira@aol.com
            HI , Mike, I have seen a few of the ancient Peruvian glyphs, mostly at The Huaca de la Luna outside Trujillo and one at the end of a footpath from the ruins at
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 13, 2006
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              HI , Mike,
               
              I have seen a few of the ancient Peruvian glyphs, mostly at The Huaca de la Luna outside Trujillo and one at the end of a footpath from the ruins at Pisac.
               
              The Moche glyphs (Huaca de la Luna) are on individual adobe type bricks and are considered to be the signature of the one who made them, but if so, where did the idea of an individual having a specific design as his/her mark come from? Especially in a culture that supposedly had no writing.
               
              Along with the Chinese evidence, there is Japanese evidence.  And, the Japanese consider these people to be relatives, which is quite something as they tend to be a very ethnocentric people..
               
              We can become so Eurocentric and Columbus oriented in our own historical record that we forget that other civilizations may have a history of interactions.
               
              ~Judith Marie
            • michael
              thanks for the info, i certainly would love to see them. those are two of the places i plan on visiting. pisac is not far from cuzco, a good hike for the
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 13, 2006
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                thanks for the info, i certainly would love to see them. those
                are two of the places i plan on visiting. pisac is not far from
                cuzco, a good hike for the healthy. trujilo or truxilo is on the
                north coast, for those unfamiliar with the andes.
                i believe a high culture using hieroglyphs will be found in
                ancient peru. its possible that the maya had an andean origin. this
                might be seen by the characters, when these leaves with writings are
                found.
                there seems to be another less advanced culture, that produced the
                petroglyph type of writing discussed before. not sure i posted the
                image, but crude serpents, man, mountains, etc.
                i wish the able linguists would tell us if there are similarities
                between mayan and quichua or quechua. also an estimate of the
                duration of separation if they are kindred. de la vega said that
                yucatan was an inca province. revolution appears to have always
                ignited in the americas. the inca protected against it by relocating
                loyal subjects to areas that might revolt, move 10,000 back and
                forth. always careful to move them to climates like their last.
                such extremes in peru, that to do otherwise they may have perished.
                the classic kingdoms of mexico seem to have fell centuries before the
                conquest, from civil revolt by the lower classes. even roman
                emperors paused to reflect how the masses would view it, before doing
                something. this fear caused the inca to place 100% control of the
                army in his hand only. this led to the fall of the inca. 100s of
                thousands of soldiers stood by and did nothing while a few hundred
                spanish held their emperor.
                we have hieroglyphic, and crude pictoral impressions. i wonder
                if author will discuss the ica stones? i hope so, even if we differ
                on opinion. if the proofs are there, i do change my mind. the nazca
                lines are significant enough to consider them a fourth mode of
                communication. i wish that i could delve deeper into andean
                prehistory. i expect it goes back further than most of the places
                considered most ancient.
                in past reviews, it was brought up by darwin, how the east coast
                of south america is being terraced by seafloor uplift and horizontal
                movement as well. it looks to me as though the west coast of peru
                does the same thing, but lacks the ramp to keep the terraces level.
                caral will one day be up in the cordilleras, 5-7,000 feet, and all
                the evidence of her sealevel days will be explained as trade. even
                the nazca lines are being uplifted, since they were laid down by
                cultured man. some are upslope on the edges of the puna. on the
                west coast, the lands seem to suffer submersion for a period before
                the uplift. knowing it and proving it are two different things.
                if the lands were elevated as now, tiwanaku and other high
                cultures of the andes, would have chosen lower lands nearer the sea
                and its bounty and trade.
                hopefully, one of these days we will uncover the early history of
                peru on plantain or mayquey leaves. then we will know of events
                before the deluge of 2950 bce. the inca were wise and had centuries
                to bury an archive of their early history. thousands of bundles of
                painted leaves have been found since 1540. where are they? most
                were burned, 16,000 bundles in one fire by the zealots. i would
                guess underground or in caves near cuzco we might find the inca
                records. quito very likely has ancient archives yet to be found.
                there is evidence enough to consider that peru may have had
                several contacts with foreign nations. there are degrees of proof of
                jews in the andes, and magyar, frisian, phoenician, elamite, and
                sumerian. from europe or around africa presented a long and
                dangerous voyage, almost as perilous as crossing the pacific. the
                drake passage is so much in need for sailors, that it should be
                closely examined to see if it could have been a massive project by
                early man. the amazon route to peru would be crazy and useless,
                fighting currents the whole way. the wise traders probably came the
                short trek taken by humboltd thru columbia to quito. the humboldt
                current would make raft coastal trading easy and profitable between
                guayaquil and mexico, the goods arrive thru the mountains from the
                gulf side, and the traders return home by the humboldt aboard rafts,
                with their imports.
                we have reason to think that there was trade with asia, there are
                things like that of china and japan, and figurines with asian looks
                found, plus we have the fields in the beni with asian pottery.
                it looks to be unlikely that foreign traders would know of
                tiwanaku up in the clouds. the artifacts found appear to me to be
                before the deluge and subsequent uplift circa 2950 bce. cuneiform
                and elamite are not uncommon from that early age. contact could have
                been made with tiwanaku when it was nearer the sea. that seems more
                likely than having european sailors climb the andes in a search for
                trading partners. the accepted notion should make more sense than it
                does. unfortunately, the experts seem to be seldom correct when
                forced to read between the lines, or out of the box.
                let me look ahead to a possibility, our lads find an archive in
                the desert, full of bundles of leaves with painted hieroglyphs. the
                local diggers get wind of it, and soon the black market is flooded
                with codies. many authentic along with many frauds. our lads test
                the fakes, and dismiss them all, the facts given were contrary to
                their thinking, etc. just a little neglect will soon destroy these
                fragile records, and they will disappear forever, like the dug skulls
                of the giants in america.
                we must count the giants as a 5th race of peru. so far all we
                have are legends and traditions, and huge megaliths, to cause us to
                consider that giants may have been there. adequate for some, but
                lacking for others.

                just my musing ...

                mike
              • mike white
                its written that viracocha reincarnated more than once to join the inca. his last appearance said to be three centuries before the conquest. his mummy was
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 16, 2006
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                     its written that viracocha reincarnated more than once to join the inca.  his last appearance said to be three centuries before the conquest.  his mummy was one of those found by the spanish.  it was examined, taken to lima, and buried in a hospital courtyard.  my guess is the natives dug him back up during a dark or stormy night, and reburied him in a place of honor, such as a huaca.  these mummies were light, and easy to carry by one man.  viracocha died at an old age, his mummy had white hair. 
                     the inca for the most part were the kindest and most benevolent rulers.  fathers could not have tended the people better.  they were wrong to keep the people ignorant.  its unfortunate that the use of writing had been stopped long before the spanish.  dr tschudi says this, but like myself cannot prove it.  so far he has offered no proof, other than reports of bundles of codices burned.  peru has every climate, and also the driest desert.  sometimes its wiser, to make an assumption, then see where it leads, then the implied conclusions can be compared to the popular dogma, to see which seems more reasonable. 
                     judging from the public works, bridges, aquaducts, canals, temples, etc, we should consider this high culture must have had either writing or telepathy, to accomplish such complicated and detailed feats.  to assume the inca and all of south america had no writing, discourages people from searching.  its certain that the spanish colonials were intent on keeping certain facts from reaching spain, and the rest of the world in consequence.  spin doctors instructed [council of the west indies] each before the ship was cleared thru customs to return to europe.   so that all evidence of writing by natives was a threat to pizarro, just as were the race of the rulers, and the greatness of the toppled culture.  its repugnant that gold crazy barbarians, destroyed a culture far advanced above them.  then destroyed the evidence.  tiwanaku was described by an early colonial, and it had much statuary, paint, and textiles on the walls.  far grander and more intact than we have today.   it was stripped of stones, until little now remains.   
                     its still hoped that some cave, or buried chamber, or desert cache of historical documents might be found, to fill in the blanks and possible errors in peruvian history.  i see no reason why inca history doesnt accept a start back at 2950 bce.  some historians contend that the inca ruled for about three hundred years.  that is not near enough time to go thru three stages of architecture at cuzco, or the other institutions to the smallest degree, long in place in inca society.  the 2950 bce is still conservative, others say the inca came to the andes closer to 9750 bce.  its the records for the time before the flood that we anticipate will be found. 
                   
                   
                  mike
                   
                • mike white
                  im curious, and we need to ask bernardo of bolivia, if the orura inscribed stone was found in the inca strata or site? the bowl may have been moved before it
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 17, 2006
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                       im curious, and we need to ask bernardo of bolivia, if the orura inscribed stone was found in the inca strata or site?   the bowl may have been moved before it was found on a farm.  it seems likely that these groups of foreigners arrived during inca times.  its quite possible, maybe likely that these contacts were made before the deluge of 2950 bce.  in my tour guide i noted that orura is high on the altiplano on the way to the high silver mines.  its incredible, but its possible that orura was nearer sealevel a mere 5,000 years ago.  imho old elamite seems nearest to the inscription's script, circa 3000 bce.   there are some scientists working on ways to judge dates of elevation changes.  surely, we will find a way to tell if the andes or ranges of cordilerra arose mya or only 5,000 years ago. 
                        we must not be confused by the word 'deluge', for its been known to be applied to poleshift, floods, and includes lands submerged, while others could be uplifted. 
                       the presence of sumerian and elamite inscriptions is disturbing, for with the gulf of panama closed they would need to come across the wide pacific, or around the cape of good hope, and cape horn, or brave the push up the amazon.  it just seems unlikely for these nations to have reached the high plain of bolivia, and to know of its metals.  it took the spanish many years to find the silver mine.   if a major uplift occurred near 2950 bce, its possible that panama was uplifted in the same event, and may have been a strait before that.  much of lower central america seems to be lacking in ancient sites.  the oldest cities are on raised plateaus far from the current seashore.  our lads should be able to carbon date some marine specimens, along former benches and seashores.   if the experts are over confident in their assigned dates, they simply wont look or test their conclusions.  we have an expert excavating mexico, who claimed that the central plateau showed evidence of being uplifted in prehistory. 
                        im puzzled what could have happened circa 3000 bce to cause global relocation of lands and nations.  maybe a near approach by mars? 
                     
                    mike
                     
                     
                  • mike white
                    cj, if i learn of any video or tapes of the conference, i will post to let you know. AA mag may have an article. i havent looked at my copies in a while.
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 22, 2006
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                         cj, if i learn of any video or tapes of the conference, i will post to let you know.  AA mag may have an article.  i havent looked at my copies in a while. 
                       
                      p269
                         here is the passage describing the gold found in the huacas near trujilo.  nothing was found in the greatest huaca - how strange.  most was taken by governors, and bishops.  the great peje remains unfound.  plundered one was called the toledo huaca.  i supose the few pieces of golden art that did reach spain intact, were later melted down by their descendents.
                       
                      c=moa;cc=moa;idno=afk5502.0001.001;frm=frameset;view=image;seq=293;page=root;size=s
                       
                         the frisians should be discussed.  an early chronicler, discussed on my pages, tells us the noble lady of the aracana of chile claimed to be frisian.  the frisian book doesnt claim that they conquered and ruled in the andes since 10,000 bce, that was my conclusion.  it does tie the history to the sinking of atlantis and altland, and that the sea-king inka took a fleet west looking for lands still above water.  cayce ties the inca and atlanteans to the andes of 10,000 bce. 
                         we have only excavated 10% of the known sites in peru.  nothing can be concluded until we progress further.  this slowness results from the care taken strata by strata down.  a trench, done carefully, to the middle of the mound makes more sense to me.  that slice of history gives them an idea of the overall contents and history, shown by relics.  it would be known on what levels to go with the most care, and which could be removed faster. 
                         its too late for the 20th century folks to correct their misconceptions.  lets hope we of the 21st century, do better. 
                       
                      imho
                      mike
                       
                    • mike white
                      here we have images of chimu architecture, and very impressive, inca or above in advancement. how curious that the chimu temple of the sun was not far from
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 23, 2006
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                           here we have images of chimu architecture, and very impressive, inca or above in advancement.  how curious that the chimu temple of the sun was not far from the moche city.  if it was built by the inca it makes sense. 
                           i thought that cuelap was discovered by savoy?  it was written of lots between 1843 and 1850. 
                           what a great wall was built nearby : 3,600 feet x 570 ft x 150 ft tall, all of stone, with earth fill.  sounds more like a dam. 
                            a city of the dead, cut in stone, sounds worthy of study.  an inclined plane walkway led upward, decreasing in width gradually as it ascended.  sentry boxes were cut in strategic places.  the top has a commanding view of the province.  i dont recall seeing these sites mentioned in lonely planet. 
                           thru the book, author mentioned multiple great artifacts that he added to his collection.  dr tschudi was a great scientist of his day.  its better that he studied them at length, than they lie in the soil.  these collections are difficult to trace by later researchers. 
                           how strange, the tomb has the man, his wife, and small bundles of their 7 children, as if they all died at once.  maybe disease? many had red hair! 
                           one hill was so steep that they could not climb over 600 ft, before meeting a vertical stone wall with windows 60 ft above them.  nothing known of that within. 
                           the gateways of old huanuco are incredible, one after the other, perfectly executed.  the lookouts are worth a visit.  as great as any monuments of the old world.  author admits these are pre inca ruins.  2 leagues west of aguamiro, at 3,600m.  cattle were kept in the ruins in 1850.  monkeys are depicted in many places.  this plain is a raised plateau i bet, and very old culture.  it may have been tropical jungle when built.  aqueducts carried water thru the city. 
                           the houses of chavin had running water.  in a few places were found huge blocks carved with characters or signs that he could not decipher. 
                            terrible earthquake of 1586 destroyed much of the coast around pachacamac. 
                           fine buildings on coati island. 
                           ollantaytambo is said to be unlike all other andean constructions, and pre inca. 
                           de la vega says cuzco is a word in the private inca language, meaning navel. 
                           church of san cristoval is atop part of manco capac's palace. 
                         
                        the end
                         
                         
                        mike
                         
                      • jdaintira@aol.com
                        In a message dated 8/23/2006 7:13:31 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, infoplz@mchsi.com writes: here is the passage describing the gold found in the huacas
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 24, 2006
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                          In a message dated 8/23/2006 7:13:31 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, infoplz@... writes:
                          here is the passage describing the gold found in the huacas near trujilo.  nothing was found in the greatest huaca - how strange.  most was taken by governors, and bishops
                          Current belief is that the Huaca Del Sol was not a burial site but administrative, so no gold/silver/gems.  The Spanish diverted the river and washed away a large section of the pyramid, and there was nothing to find.   ~JM
                        • jdaintira@aol.com
                          In a message dated 8/23/2006 7:07:43 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, infoplz@mchsi.com writes: de la vega says cuzco is a word in the private inca language,
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 24, 2006
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                            In a message dated 8/23/2006 7:07:43 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, infoplz@... writes:
                            de la vega says cuzco is a word in the private inca language, meaning navel. 
                            Yes, it is considered the navel of the world (concept found in numerous other cultures world wide), and there is a spot in the middle of the courtyard of the Koricancha which is a small square well that is the navel.  ~JM
                             
                          • jdaintira@aol.com
                            In a message dated 8/23/2006 7:07:43 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, _infoplz@mchsi.com_ (mailto:old.infoplz@mchsi.com) writes: ollantaytambo is said to be
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 24, 2006
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                              In a message dated 8/23/2006 7:07:43 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
                               
                              infoplz@... writes:
                              ollantaytambo is said to be unlike all other andean constructions, and pre inca. 
                              I think that your source must be very old and outdated.
                               
                              The Ollantaytambo Sun Temple was Incan and part of a royal estate belonging to the Emperor Pachacutti, who was fascinated by Tiahuanaco and replicated some of the Puma Punca architecture and motifs. However, what is incised in Bolivia is excised at Ollantaytambo.
                               
                              It was unfinished as the emperor died and the temple thus belonged to his mummy and his successor started a new royal estate in a different part of the Sacred Valley.
                               
                              ~JM
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