Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: BURROWS CAVE DISCUSSION

Expand Messages
  • mike white
    map 1 and map2 mike ... From: mike white To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 2:21 PM Subject: Re:
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 3 1:31 PM
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
       
      map 1 and map2
       
      mike
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 2:21 PM
      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: BURROWS CAVE DISCUSSION

       
         russ has sent me some very important information that validates the artifacts as real relics.  stones were found with maps of the mississippi river system, showing major tributaries.  however, they show the lower course 50 miles west of the river today.  the army corp of engineers have done studies to determine when the old channel was in use.  no hoaxer would have known this information.  the map-stones depict the river course as it was 800 to 2500 years ago, depending on the study cited.  i may adjust the size of the images to facillitate easier reading, and post the info soon. 
       
      mike
       
       
    • mike white
      map 3 mike ... From: mike white To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 2:21 PM Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re:
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 3 1:33 PM
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
         
        map 3
         
        mike
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 2:21 PM
        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: BURROWS CAVE DISCUSSION

         
           russ has sent me some very important information that validates the artifacts as real relics.  stones were found with maps of the mississippi river system, showing major tributaries.  however, they show the lower course 50 miles west of the river today.  the army corp of engineers have done studies to determine when the old channel was in use.  no hoaxer would have known this information.  the map-stones depict the river course as it was 800 to 2500 years ago, depending on the study cited.  i may adjust the size of the images to facillitate easier reading, and post the info soon. 
         
        mike
         
         
      • mike white
        map4 mike ... From: mike white To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 2:21 PM Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re:
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 3 1:34 PM
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
           
          map4
           
          mike
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 2:21 PM
          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: BURROWS CAVE DISCUSSION

           
             russ has sent me some very important information that validates the artifacts as real relics.  stones were found with maps of the mississippi river system, showing major tributaries.  however, they show the lower course 50 miles west of the river today.  the army corp of engineers have done studies to determine when the old channel was in use.  no hoaxer would have known this information.  the map-stones depict the river course as it was 800 to 2500 years ago, depending on the study cited.  i may adjust the size of the images to facillitate easier reading, and post the info soon. 
           
          mike
           
           
        • mike white
          map 5 mike ... From: mike white To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 2:21 PM Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re:
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 3 1:34 PM
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
             
            map 5
             
            mike
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 2:21 PM
            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: BURROWS CAVE DISCUSSION

             
               russ has sent me some very important information that validates the artifacts as real relics.  stones were found with maps of the mississippi river system, showing major tributaries.  however, they show the lower course 50 miles west of the river today.  the army corp of engineers have done studies to determine when the old channel was in use.  no hoaxer would have known this information.  the map-stones depict the river course as it was 800 to 2500 years ago, depending on the study cited.  i may adjust the size of the images to facillitate easier reading, and post the info soon. 
             
            mike
             
             
          • mike white
            map 6 mike ... From: mike white To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 2:21 PM Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re:
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 3 1:34 PM
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
               
              map 6
               
              mike
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 2:21 PM
              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: BURROWS CAVE DISCUSSION

               
                 russ has sent me some very important information that validates the artifacts as real relics.  stones were found with maps of the mississippi river system, showing major tributaries.  however, they show the lower course 50 miles west of the river today.  the army corp of engineers have done studies to determine when the old channel was in use.  no hoaxer would have known this information.  the map-stones depict the river course as it was 800 to 2500 years ago, depending on the study cited.  i may adjust the size of the images to facillitate easier reading, and post the info soon. 
               
              mike
               
               
            • mike white
              i started reading burrows the mystery cave of many faces . it was co-authored by fred rydholm, and seems to be a narrative from three perspectives. the
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 4 9:59 PM
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                 
                   i started reading burrows' 'the mystery cave of many faces'.   it was co-authored by fred rydholm, and seems to be a narrative from three perspectives.  the first chapter reveals the writer to be well-read on world history, but some of the conclusions are far from mainstream.  much of the controversy may be the result of the characters involved, more than the merits of the artifacts. 
                   i had not planned to share the review of this book, but if there is interest, it could be done.  otherwise, i will just post anecdotes of note. 
                   bear in mind the early settlers of southern illinois, and travellers along the ohio reported seeing cave drawings of old  world voyagers in the area, particularly those looking like egyptians seen in cave-in rock.  these were destroyed by vandals, nonetheless those early reports lend substance to the burrows' cave relics. 
                   ive contacted experts on ancient hebrew to get opinions on two stones with scripts, and hope to post any response i may get.  we have the stone with the star of david suggesting hebrew, russ reports a figure of tannit was found pointing to carthaginians, not sure if baal appears on these objects to indicate phoenician presence.
                   as frank cross indicated, dirt archaeologists and many others, are quick to cry fraud on any objects not removed insitu by pros.  logic and scientific method has nothing to do with it.  we owe it to science and history to fully examine all objects found.  no wonder almost nothing is known of american prehistory.  its time that we consider all objects authentic, until proven otherwise.  give the common man the benefit of doubt.  its very cynical to think all people are liars and cheats. 
                 
                mike
                 
                 
              • mike white
                i have found a useful tool on identifying script, and added the link to our alphabet-script links. note how the timeline has links to the scripts. it has a
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 6 8:44 PM
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                   
                      i have found a useful tool on identifying script, and added the link to our alphabet-script links.  note how the timeline has links to the scripts.  it has a few twists in it, but useful.  some of the bc objects may have Proto-Sinaitic and not old negev, as some have suggested to russ.  the symbol on the mapstone some thought denoted a town may be a 'k', or palm.  we should take an object bearing this script, and write our letters for each symbol, and read it right to left.  note it will be consonants only.  we must supply the vowels.  if its not intelligible, we may need a mideast semitic language expert.  it will be a start.
                   
                   
                   
                   
                  mike
                   
                   
                • mike white
                  sorry, i meant to mention the sign gimmel, the throwstick, that appears in the world s oldest scripts. how much it looks like an atlatl or boomerang, is
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 6 8:50 PM
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                     
                       sorry, i  meant to mention the sign gimmel, the throwstick, that appears in the world's oldest scripts.  how much it looks like an atlatl or boomerang, is uncanny. 
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 11:44 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: BURROWS CAVE DISCUSSION

                     
                        i have found a useful tool on identifying script, and added the link to our alphabet-script links.  note how the timeline has links to the scripts.  it has a few twists in it, but useful.  some of the bc objects may have Proto-Sinaitic and not old negev, as some have suggested to russ.  the symbol on the mapstone some thought denoted a town may be a 'k', or palm.  we should take an object bearing this script, and write our letters for each symbol, and read it right to left.  note it will be consonants only.  we must supply the vowels.  if its not intelligible, we may need a mideast semitic language expert.  it will be a start.
                     
                     
                     
                     
                    mike
                     
                     
                  • michael
                    right away one will notice that the bc scripts dont fit any table exactly. they may have some signs from proto sinaitic, others from old hebrew. this i think
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 6 11:29 PM
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      right away one will notice that the bc scripts dont fit any table
                      exactly. they may have some signs from proto sinaitic, others from
                      old hebrew. this i think is ok, placing the script creation during
                      the period of transition from the one to the other. if the script
                      was a perfect fit the warning flag would go up about a possible
                      modern forgery. we may have scripts written from 1700 to 1500 bce.
                      thanks for the encouragement william. i will look at your photo
                      later. sometime i will hunt on my other pc for the image from spiro
                      mound. it shows two men adjusting calibrated dials, on a pottery
                      shard.
                      its possible that the hebrew developed the script, then the
                      phoenicians altered it to create their alphabet to facilitate
                      trade. aramaic was later adopted for the same reason.
                      we should consider that a settlement may be associated with
                      burrows' cave. it may have been occupied for up to 2500 years,
                      judging from the scripts, peoples, and costumes. down thru the ages
                      there were many events that may have created exiles. the vikings
                      were exiles from religion, laws, taxation, and plagues. alexander's
                      conquest may have put people in boats from tyre. no place in the
                      old world was safe for an enemy of rome, as hannibal found out.
                      southern illinois was perfectly located to control metal traffic
                      from the midwest.
                      russ, can you talk about the silt in the cave, and its likely
                      causes? so you never went back to the pit trap to investigate the
                      portal chamber? with such an elaborate trap, it could be very
                      important. it sounds like you may be psychic somewhat. might flood
                      the pit it you poked thru the portal. a gps would be handy for a
                      caver. are bc relics still on display at a museum? im still
                      reading your book, so may find some of these answers.

                      mike



                      --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                      <infoplz@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > i have found a useful tool on identifying script, and added
                      the link to our alphabet-script links. note how the timeline has
                      links to the scripts. it has a few twists in it, but useful. some
                      of the bc objects may have Proto-Sinaitic and not old negev, as some
                      have suggested to russ. the symbol on the mapstone some thought
                      denoted a town may be a 'k', or palm. we should take an object
                      bearing this script, and write our letters for each symbol, and read
                      it right to left. note it will be consonants only. we must supply
                      the vowels. if its not intelligible, we may need a mideast semitic
                      language expert. it will be a start.
                      >
                      > http://www.ancientscripts.com/ws_timeline.html
                      >
                      >
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions/links/Alphabe
                      ts_000983059234/
                      >
                      >
                      > mike
                      >
                    • mike white
                      i would like to learn more of the carved stone shown in russ book, found along a river. it was made like a pillar, with a bowl on top, suggesting it may have
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 9 4:20 AM
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                         
                           i would like to learn more of the carved stone shown in russ' book, found along a river.  it was made like a pillar, with a bowl on top, suggesting it may have been a torch. 
                           as stated before, the juncture of the mississippi and ohio are ideally located to control river transport of metals.  so there is a strong likelihood of a settlement somewhere between cairo and cave-in rock.  bc archive cache site sounds too  far away to have the main settlement.   it would take many men to control the metal trade on the rivers, and the relics seem to show long-term occupation in the area. 
                           as far as i know, no site of a precolumbian town has yet been found in that area.  we have the bc relics, the river marker or beacon, and early reports of old world depictions in cave-in rock.  i read they have designated a park at cave-in rock, but no mention of the site having been professionally excavated.  the site should be excavated.  the roof fell in a portion as i recall, this may cover important relics or drawings.  the ancients may have used the cave to monitor river traffic, or to store goods, or as a shelter.  this metal trade may have brought gold to these ancients, as reported in bc.  lots of copper was used during the bronze age.  the colossus of rhodes took an enormous amount of copper. 
                           it would aid us to know more of the countless relics reported found in the fields of the wabash valley.  it may help us learn which groups were more represented in the vicinity.  bc may represent the minority, the wealthy and literate few. 
                           btw, about the monhegan reference to similar script to the michigan tablets.  most of us are only familiar with one inscription on monhegan island.  the booklet of 1909 speaks of a tablet found there in 1898, bearing a similar unidentifed script like in michigan.  caves are reported on monhegan having other inscriptions.  plus there are strange rock constructions on the island. 
                         
                         
                         
                         
                           a while back i sent images of an inscription found in maine to hebrew scholars, who agreed it was middle archaic hebrew script.
                           several nations were able mariners in ancient times, including the egyptians, carians, frisians, minoans, and men of rhodes. 
                           imagine how much our thinking of american prehistory would be changed if we accepted the bc, michigan plates, and davenport tablets. 
                           russ, since the law on digs of 1989 was enacted, you decided never to enter bc again.  why not allow the pros to have the location?  there must be a fair-minded archaeologist you could entrust with the info, for assurances and conditions that you set.  im sure, you join us wanting a resolution of this in your lifetime.  of course you should get the credit, and be involved every step of the way.
                         
                        mike
                         
                         
                      • mike white
                        thanks for the info on the relic that i thought was a beacon. not sure what it was intended for. russ, i just read the article in volume 5 of ancient
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 10 10:22 PM
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                           
                             thanks for the info on the relic that i thought was a beacon.  not sure what it was intended for. 
                             russ, i just read the article in volume 5 of ancient american, giving details of a thorough professional excavation began in 2000 at bc.  that was 6 years ago, with all of the heavy equipment and the large team involved, one might expect them to have completed the initial survey and inventory of items.  we touched briefly on this in our talks, but can you tell the members what the status is on that investigation? 
                             it seems that bc is far from a navigable river, and may just be a secreted burial crypt and cache location.  the bulk of the objects seem to have been created in illinois, on the black stones, indicating a long presence in that general area.  im convinced the location was selected to control the trade in metals.  there must be a town site somewhere in the vicinity.  perhaps along the ohio river, between the mouth of the wabash and cairo.  near the cave-in rock may have been ideal.  cairo has been occupied for a long time.  i wonder if there are reports of anomalous finds there in the 18th and 19th centuries? 
                             some of the objects depict soldiers, so i wonder if a fort was constructed?  judging by the alien finds in america, the superior copper was known by many ancient nations.  the gold found would indicate it was a lucrative trade, and a fort would have been necessary.  there must be much more yet to be found in southern illinois.  the bronze age lasted for 1500 years by mainline thought, and up to 8500 years by other accounts.  there may have been a sizeable settlement of old world traders there, long before the mass migration of tribes from the south began coming north.  the arrival of the warrior tribes may have closed america to foreigners, and driven out the survivors.  they may have became the yuchis, and moved east. 
                             the sites that would have been crucial to the early copper traders would have been maybe chicago, cairo, detroit, and montreal.  forts in these locations could have controlled the trade. 
                             the old maps brought up by hapgood show the world before the last poleshift.  the navigation and shore details of the far north of canada, suggests that copper may have been exploited from northern routes before 10,000 bce, when those lands had a better climate. 
                           
                           
                          mike
                           
                        • mike white
                          hi russ, all this may be none of our business, and if you do not wish to discuss it, i will understand. i realize that you do not own the land that bc is on.
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 13 12:01 AM
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                             
                            hi russ, all
                             
                               this may be  none of our business, and if you do not wish to discuss it, i will understand.  i realize that you do not own the land that bc is on.  i get the idea that others wish to  buy your 'interest' in the cave.  AA may have been involved, since they proclaimed that the site is no longer to be called burrows' cave.  it sounds like people on the treasure forum formed a syndicate on the prospect of buying you out.  have you sold an interest in bc?  im not sure what good it will do them, since passage of the illinois law on such digs, and tightening of security by the landowner.  its none of our business, but humans are curious creatures.  it may explain why AA behaves like it has a vested interest.  im just trying to make sense of it all. 
                               
                            mike
                             
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.