## Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: book review : hapgood's "maps of the ancient sea kings" [my musings]

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• the original source maps may have been based on spherical trigonometry . graduated sailing charts were first reported in portugal in 1496. that makes it
Message 1 of 18 , Oct 31, 2005

'the original source maps'  'may have been based on spherical trigonometry'.
graduated sailing charts were first reported in portugal in 1496.  that makes it unlikely or impossible that these early accurate charts were drawn by explorers and voyagers.   de canerio map
some ancient charts were based on the 'twelve-wind system', not trig.   also notes a 'eight-wind system'.  'timosthenes, an immediate predecessor of eratosthenes' is credited with 12-wind system.  the latter created the simpler 8-wind system.
the venetian map of the west african coast of 1484 was accurate within 20 miles for the section of coast covered by the map, 24n and 3s.  drawn orinally by plane geometry, based on a square grid, using true north, sidereal like the heavens.
take note william - 'the intervals of the twelve-wind system made it simple to draw an equilateral triangle with its apex on the 27th parallel and its base on the equator, and solve for the length of the degree with trigonometric tables.'  p127 helps to find latitude.   the 12-wind has a pie shape that when completed has a square checker-board within it with 36 squares.
he brings up a good point, if the early portuguese explorers, and others, were using these old maps, why did they pretend to be the discoverers?   some charts based on true north show mariners had tried to use them with the compass.

Kind regards,
Mike White
http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm

a man might disbelieve something, and prove himself correct.
another man, believing, caused it to be given to him.

• after examining an ancient map of china [1173] cut in stone, author concluded : it seems to me that the evidence of this map points to the existence in very
Message 2 of 18 , Nov 4, 2005

after examining an ancient map of china [1173] cut in stone, author concluded : 'it seems to me that the evidence of this map points to the existence in very ancient times of a worldwide civilization, the mapmakers of which mapped virtually the entire globe with a uniform general level of technology, with similar methods, equal knowledge of mathematics, and probably the same sorts of instruments.'
he nows discusses the zeno map of 1380 of the northern regions.
mallery 'pointed out that the zeno map shows greenland with no ice cap.'
'it goes without saying that this map was not drawn by the zeno brothers.'  longitude and latitude were too accurate on coasts these mariners never saw.
[i think cartigraphers rarely go to every place they position on a map, at best they are selective compilers of smaller good maps.  like the lucky ones who copied cook's charts.]
'one of the great events of the 15th century was the recovery of the works of claudius ptolemy.'  marinus of tyre was a geographer before hime.
ptolemy's map of the north sea area shows the 'goths' in sweden, in the 2nd c ce.  [a different race from the norse.  the goths are the same people as magyar and scythian.  the norse i presume descended from frisians.  down thru the ages for thousands of years they sailed on voyages together.  the runes probably were borrowed from the magyar, who alone have a history of their development from stick writing.]
[consider the eskimo, and his counterpart in the asian north.  why would these people be in a such inhospitable country?  they seem to have a very long history there.  the eskimo seems to be a mature and concise language like a refined culture produces.  my hunch is they did not go north to these regions, but were living there - when the land became northern, and many survived, stayed, and adapted.  after long generations the descendants remain out of habit and tradition.  they only know seal hunting by then.  i know people in northern china that suffer cold winters, and bad economic conditions, that are unwilling to consider moving south where better climate and jobs can be found.  their family and ancestors are in the north.]
'the shapes of countries and seas were sadly distorted on the ptolemy maps'.  [its hard to believe he saw these excellent older maps, yet produced such poor maps himself.  maybe there was nobody willing to criticize his work?]
ptolemy 'shows greenland largely, but not entirely, covered by ice.'  [how strange it was glaciated in 200 ce, but not in 1000 ce!]  he shows greater glaciation in southern sweden, where none exists now.  while viking occupation of greenland shows how rapidly glaciers can advance, it seems clear they can melt or retreat just as fast.]
[we may have to rethink ice-ages and glaciers.  its likely error that the entire earth suffered a large temperature drop during the ice ages.  it was probably confined to the polar regions before and after a poleshift, or wandering of the poles.  its very difficult to understand why the poles moved so much during recent times.   they certainly moved then, and are moving now.  it could be that ptolemy copied the ice fields as they appeared on earlier maps, when the glaciers were in those locations.]

Kind regards,
Mike White
http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm

a man might disbelieve something, and prove himself correct.
another man, believing, caused it to be given to him.
• [it is no wonder that voyages of discovery began after recovering ptolemy s works, for there were reported numerous other maps found then also. this fact
Message 3 of 18 , Nov 4, 2005

[it is no wonder that voyages of discovery began after recovering ptolemy's works, for there were reported numerous other maps found then also.  this fact seems understated and under-reported, when considering columbus' accomplishment.  it would be strange if the romans had never seen the excellent ancient maps.  they could have voyaged to the new world with these charts.]
'if the original source of the ptolemy map came from the end of the ice age, that of the zeno map may have originated much earlier.
hapgood credited mallery as the pioneer in this map original search, but did not agree in certain particulars.
[ive gained added respect for hapgood, from his thinking and methods in his study of ancient maps.  it has been a big learning experience, to understand the fine points of map making, and the number of criteria to be considered.  like knowing the circumference of the earth, length of the degree of parallel and meridian, projection, orientation, scale, etc.  the ancients of the ice age actually knew that the earth has less diameter at the poles, and bulged at the equator.  they could accurately measure not only latitude, but longitude also.  if only one of these maps depicted their instruments.  they did not rely upon the compass, but the more precise true north, based upon the stars.  its another proof that higher civilizations have existed in remote times.  it seems an earlier epoch of development ended at the ice age, was at full maturity and far advanced in the arts and sciences.  this was the former mother culture, that took culture to various nations around the globe.  atlantis was not the only high culture it appears, maybe contemporary with it were others in peru, mexico, egypt, tibet, india, and frisia, plus the gobi, and norway.  frisia is the only one i know of that had sea kings and great navigators, and are the most likely creators of the maps.  its odd that women were in almost all high offices in frisia, but the sea kings and navigators seem to be men.  just as its odd we find no evidence of early inca women emperors.  all we have is reverance for pachamama in peru.  finding a list of pachamamas would be telling.]

Kind regards,
Mike White
http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm

a man might disbelieve something, and prove himself correct.
another man, believing, caused it to be given to him.

• Hy Mike; This URL is on the first people known to have sailed the South Pacific...the LAPITA culture ... http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0508/S00117.htm As
Message 4 of 18 , Nov 4, 2005
Hy Mike;

This URL is on the first people known to have
sailed the  South  Pacific...the LAPITA  culture ...
As the female head could be spot on ...all it needed
would be a 'fuzzy' head of hair and you could say ...
there is a Fijian woman...  Whether they contacted
the South American continant ...we have to waite
and  see ...

Pat/Moby

• [ relax moby, you are among friends. its best not to debate or discuss sensitive subjects that provoke emotional responses. the forwarding of email posts is
Message 5 of 18 , Nov 5, 2005

[ relax moby, you are among friends.  its best not to debate or discuss sensitive subjects that provoke emotional responses.  the forwarding of email posts is ok, as long as its on topic, of interest to the group, and not offensive.  if the post is intended for one or two members only, better to email them directly.  spelling is forgivable, bad manners is not.]
[the melanesians are very interesting.  i wonder how long ago they were separated from africa?  dna and genetics should try to establish that.  i expect more than 50,000 years.  they did not transform to other races in that time.]
we now discuss the andrea benincasa map of 1508 :
'an amazing accuracy for the map as a whole.'  longitude was better than ptolemy.  'it is one of the most accurate of all the portolanos in ots delineation of the details of the coasts.'
'it can only have been drawn originally with the aid of spherical trigonometry.'
despite its accuracy, it shows the baltic running east-west.
'is this large feature really the baltic - or is it a mass of ice?'
[it seems to show a river from the atlantic east across the sahara.]
'the coast of the netherlands is mistaken for the coast of denmark'  'much coastline being omitted'.
lat to long was 9/7, or long. was 7/9 of lat.   mag north was 6 degrees east of true often on portolanos.
[strabo and earlier greek geographers referred to an earlier time when it was navigable from the black sea, thru the caspian to the north sea or arctic ocean.  the features of lakes or glacial run-off on this chart indicate it may have been navigable west across europe from the black sea.  this seems a different age from that described by the greeks.  uncertain is the route of the danube.]
if all portolanos are copied from an original, 'the portolano of iehudi ibn ben zara of alexandria may stand very close to this original.'
glacial map of the baltic shows most of norway and sweden covered by glaciers prior to 8,000 bce.  [this is contrary to oera de linda, which has magyars pushing in by 10,000 bce, in my interpretation.  the inka fleet spoke more of land loss from inundation, not by glacier.]
zara's chart had fine coastal details and accuracy.  it also shows a similar feature like a river [triton?] east-west across the sahara, and it shows palm trees far south into the sahara.  [oddly, it shows camels when they were not in the sahara until muslim times.  if true the map could have additions or edits after 638 ce.  but how could the palm trees be so far south after 638?]

Kind regards,
Mike White
http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm

a man might disbelieve something, and prove himself correct.
another man, believing, caused it to be given to him.

• [pat, we know there were colonial blacks, escaped and free, that formed settlements in south america. less known, are earlier mentions and depictions in
Message 6 of 18 , Nov 5, 2005

[pat, we know there were colonial blacks, escaped and free, that formed settlements in south america.  less known, are earlier mentions and depictions in relics, of blacks there in precolumbian times.  so, those lemurian refugees, we call polynesian and melanesian may have reached south america.  the brown race perpetuated as the aymara, while black racial features disappeared.  the red quechuan race seems to have arrived later, as did the white inka.  imho]
[wow, that saharan river feature does terminate on its eastern end in three prongs, like a trident!  this old name, i think was the river triton, mentioned in myth in the travels of heracles, dates this map to those legendary times of semi-divine heroes.]
the zara map has mag n 11.25 degrees east.  this map has cameo faces of people with pointed noses, and long necks [author posits either greek or coptic].  'drawn for a square grid'.  thought later to symbolize the winds, but these cheeks are not puffing.
the swampy delta of the guadaquivir was shown on the zara map as a bay.  considerable time would be required to fill the bay.
the aegean seemed to have more isles on the zara map, as if the sealevel has risen, or the land subsided.  it looks like glaciers in central england and ireland.  all pointng back near the ice age.
'hipparchus in the 2nd century bc discovered or rediscovered plane and spherical trigonometry.'
'we accumulated more and more evidence of the ancient existence, in an era long before greece, of spherical trigonometry'.
[the portolanos demonstrate the conversion from an exact science, to a less perfect flat projection.  we have a fall of science in the transition of ice-age culture to modern.  before paleo times, we had an advanced mature culture.  we know that a global disaster befell circa 10,000 bce, but instead of losing ground, culture was spread to numerous nations.  this explains how culture and dynasties sprang full-blown mature, at the beginning of the nations' recorded history.  but why does civilization fall after the arts and sciences survived the poleshift?  from the high level of 10,000 bce, culture falls to the level that we find in the written record after 3,000 bce, considerably lower.  i dont know where the relics of old stone age man belong, but they are out-of-place after 10,000 bce, imho.  earlier in the pliocene, probably well before 50,000 bce, is my guess.  i think we need to change classifications perhaps.  there are big, crude, stone hammers, that a modern man would find unwieldy, that appear to date to a far earlier time than clovis, which dates to what, 12,000 bce - long before the 3,000 bce time slot they place old stone age man.  clovis was a much later refinement i think.  ive got a collection of these archaic hammers, axes, and celts.  they could as easily be 100,000 or a million years old.  consider the ica and acambaro relics, that depict men with dinosaurs, capable of brain surgery, as the skulls reveal.  where do we place our big, heavy, crude, stone tools?  speaking of mankind as a whole, we would have to go before the demise of these dinosaurs.  many things suggest that man has lost the record of his history for some millions of years.  i know ths is not taught, and many better educated people could present convincing reasons why they disagree, and accept the mainstream views.  but the relics and old maps wont go away.]

Kind regards,
Mike White
http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm

a man might disbelieve something, and prove himself correct.
another man, believing, caused it to be given to him.
• As humanity is believed to have left the African Continent 40-80 thousand years ago, it is not surprising that the African physical characteristics can
Message 7 of 18 , Nov 5, 2005
As humanity is believed to have left the African Continent 40-80
thousand years ago, it is not surprising that the "African" physical
characteristics can appear in all populations. Yet as I gaze upon the
reconstruction in this website I note more than just African, but also
Amerindian traits. The artifacts left at Tlatilco, Mexico (near
Teotihuacan)show small carvings of an array of "racial" types, among
which African is common. Some of these date back 3,000 or more years.
There is some mention of African kings being able to navigate great
distances in the time before Christ. One also sees the African type in
ceramic bowls from Ecuador to Peru, some dated BCE.

Have not got time right now, but I believe this subject needs much
further discussion. Unfortunately, most native Americans I've tried to

==============================
--- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mobydoc"
<patcobb@x...> wrote:
>
> Hy Mike;
>
> This URL is on the first people known to have
> sailed the South Pacific...the LAPITA culture ...
> http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0508/S00117.htm
> As the female head could be spot on ...all it needed
> would be a 'fuzzy' head of hair and you could say ...
> there is a Fijian woman... Whether they contacted
> the South American continant ...we have to waite
> and see ...
>
> Pat/Moby
>
• lets examine this well-stated mainstream belief. mankind emerged from africa 40-80,000 years ago. since that time he has reached every continent and most
Message 8 of 18 , Nov 6, 2005

lets examine this well-stated mainstream belief.  mankind emerged from africa 40-80,000 years ago.  since that time he has reached every continent and most islands.  man has transformed into five distinct and unique racial types during that brief period.  is this reasonable and believable?  there are still stone age people on earth today.
i think its written that the aborigines of australia arrived there 50,000 years ago, but seem to have remain untransformed during that long period.  no 5 races emerged from them.
there are campsites and relics in the americas possibly older than 80,000 bce.  around the former benches of former salt lakes in our southwest are sites possibly that old.  there are human tracks in the same stone strata with those of dinosaurs.  they are not faked, some are in a riverbed, and continue into a cliff, further digging shows that the tracks continue in the rock strata.
how did hominids reach java from africa long before 80,000 bce?

mike

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 10:49 AM
Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: book review : hapgood's "maps of the ancient sea kings" [my musings]

As humanity is believed to have left the African Continent 40-80
thousand years ago, it is not surprising that the "African" physical
characteristics can appear in all populations.  Yet as I gaze upon the
reconstruction in this website I note more than just African, but also
Amerindian traits.  The artifacts left at Tlatilco, Mexico (near
Teotihuacan)show small carvings of an array of "racial" types, among
which African is common.  Some of these date back 3,000 or more years.
There is some mention of African kings being able to navigate great
distances in the time before Christ.  One also sees the African type in
ceramic bowls from Ecuador to Peru, some dated BCE.

Have not got time right now, but I believe this subject needs much
further discussion.  Unfortunately, most native Americans I've tried to

==============================
--- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mobydoc"
<patcobb@x...> wrote:
>
> Hy Mike;
>
>     This URL is on the first people known to have
>      sailed the  South  Pacific...the LAPITA  culture ...
> http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0508/S00117.htm
>   As the female head could be spot on ...all it needed
>  would be a 'fuzzy' head of hair and you could say ...
>   there is a Fijian woman...  Whether they contacted
>   the South American continant ...we have to waite
>    and  see ...
>
>                                 Pat/Moby
>

• oronteus finaeus map of antarctica : according to geological clues, appears to represent an antiquity greater than that of most of the other maps may
Message 9 of 18 , Nov 9, 2005

oronteus finaeus map of antarctica : 'according to geological clues, appears to represent an antiquity greater than that of most of the other maps'  'may exceed several times over the antiquity of the oldest written records'.
12 wind system : 'this system appears to stem from the farthest antiquity.'  360 degrees, of 12 arcs, or 6 arcs.  it is older than babylon, so thought to be wisdom passed to them, since their mathematics are based on decimals, with a 360 degree circle.
antarctica has many times possessed a warm climate.
human types date back to 1.7 million years.
'antarctica may not have been at the south pole in the periods when the continent was warm.'
'one is to suppose a change in the position of the earth's axis of rotation.'  'no force on the earth could account for such a thing.'  author believes the entire crust slides.
4 ice-ages in america in last million years.   last ice-age formed and melted within 10,000 years.  'one of the unsolved problems of geology.'  [throw out defective theories, or add catastrophism, is my reply.]
in antarctica 'the center of mass of the great ice cap is, ... about 300 miles from the pole.'
crust slide : 'would eventually stop because the ice caps would melt'.  author assumes axis and equator remain the same.  [i dislike this theory of his.]   author notes that siberia did get colder at that time, but fails to discern that the climate change there was sudden.

Kind regards,
Mike White
http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm

a man might disbelieve something, and prove himself correct.
another man, believing, caused it to be given to him.

• ancient sophisticated maps suggest : the simple linear development of society of the paleolithic [old stone age] through the successive stages of the
Message 10 of 18 , Nov 10, 2005

ancient sophisticated maps suggest : 'the simple linear development of society of the paleolithic [old stone age] through the successive stages of the neolithic [new stone age], bronze, and iron age must be given up.'  always stone age coexists with advanced.
rome burned carthage, destroying an estimated 500,000 books or scrolls.
[in every age common man has been too hasty to think that all great discoveries have already been made, and equally fast to ridicule any new ideas and discoveries.]
the remarkable scientific calendar of egypt dates from 4241 bce.  the sidereal year of babylon was 2 seconds in error from our most accurate of today.  we cannot fathom how they and the maya could have achieved such accuracy without precision instruments.
author cites carbon 14 dating is accurate up to 40,000 years.
an advanced lunar calendar was created 35,000 years ago.
this concludes the text, but over 100 pages of notes, letters, and tables remain.  i will read those and post anything i think of interest to the group.

Kind regards,
Mike White
http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm

a man might disbelieve something, and prove himself correct.
another man, believing, caused it to be given to him.

• welcome to the new members. piri reis was beheaded in egypt. the legends are written in turkish, and the notes translate these. they contain remarks copied
Message 11 of 18 , Nov 15, 2005

welcome to the new members.
piri reis was beheaded in egypt.
the legends are written in turkish, and the notes translate these.  they contain remarks copied from columbus' maps.  columbus' map was taken from a spanish slave held by the turks, who was on three voyages with columbus.  columbus had gotten his map and info from an old book he had found.
the chart of alexander was called 'mappae mundi'.
piri reis map did not use spherical trigonometry.  [a surprising remark in final notes.]
[off this topic : isnt it curious the great change in the fighting spirit of the spanish, when comparing the bravery of the conquistadors, to the colonial garrisons of later decades, who surrendered more readily. ]

Kind regards,
Mike White
http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm

a man might disbelieve something, and prove himself correct.
another man, believing, caused it to be given to him.
• mercator, then, while he laid the basis for modern scientific cartography, did not attain the technical level of the ancients. his projection is useful for
Message 12 of 18 , Nov 17, 2005

'mercator, then, while he laid the basis for modern scientific cartography, did not attain the technical level of the ancients.'  his projection is useful for navigation, and is retained as the most common in use today.
babylonian mathematics 'was based on sixty and powers of sixty.'  'all numbers could be made with only two symbols.'
'it is in india more than in any other country on earth that the traditions of an ancient great world civilization are still preserved.'
in note 19, author again quotes cummings on the great age of the pyramid of cuicuilco mexico.  cyclopean masonry, without mortar, causeways instead of stairs.  three lava flows have occurred since its construction.
'so cuicuilco fell into ruins some 8500 years ago.'  three different peoples, separated by sterile layers occupied the site, testifying to a very long occupation.  temple had two massive enlargements over the ages.  18.5 ft of deposit over the original platform, with 'six successive pavements' with their altars, all buried before xitli erupted in fire.  'gives evidence of being the oldest temple yet uncovered on the american continent.'
[its reasonable to consider that there may be older temples or pyramids found, and still buried, that lack all the manners of proofs unique to this pyramid temple at cuicuilco, and could easily be assigned a more recent date, in error.  cummings assumed that it being primitive added evidence of being more ancient, this may turn out to be a fallacy, when we dig deeper.  mainline archaeologist excavators stop when their expectations are reached, usually about 35 feet of overlay deposit.  they reached olmec or whatever culture that theyve assigned a date for the earliest cultural horizon in that area [about 3,000 bce] - then they stop digging.  i think its entirely possible that we have found pyramids up to 12,000 years old, and incorrectly identified and dated them.  the mystics suggest that most pyramids, if not all, have inner chambers, that need to be found, and the cultural remains examined.  the pyramid of cholula may be much older, imho, for its said it was built by giants.  even more bizarre, is the experts giving a date for tiwanaku, no earlier than 1200 bce.  ive not read any expert who would dare guess a date for sacsayhuaman fortress.  it seems to date long before cuzco.  unless cuzco is a multi-layer cake of levels of culture, and cities.  now they think, if its inca, then its no earlier than 1400 ce, with tiwanuku ending about 1200 ce.  just common sense indicates this is total nonsense.  ruins have been found under titicaca - yet no expedition has followed-up this discovery.  cousteau made an incomplete investigation, but was foiled by the dark silted waters, making it impossible to see what lay on the bottom.  fresh water lays over heavier salt water in titicaca.  the best way is to lower the level of the lake, or pump out the heavier salt water near the bottom, if they want to keep calling it a fresh water lake, imho.  the floating islands can float lower.  the ferry boats for excursions will have to lower their operations to follow the shore.  the minerals can be extracted to pay the costs of the operations.  it should be done.  tourism will flourish.  cultured human history may be rolled back 50,000 years.  the ecosystems will not be disturbed much.  i may have to go down there and talk revolution, another o'higgins.  hoho]

Kind regards,
Mike White
http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm

a man might disbelieve something, and prove himself correct.
another man, believing, caused it to be given to him.
• Ouch Mike ...you went and kicked that (academic cow) right between the [teats of knowledge] again...it s a pity you wear such reasonable footwear ...mine are
Message 13 of 18 , Nov 17, 2005

Ouch Mike ...you went and kicked that
(academic cow) right between the [teats
of knowledge] again...it's a pity you wear such
reasonable footwear ...mine are steel toed ...
commando-soled with crampon bits just for
rockwork and those terylene backsides (lovely)
I have been known to launch some academic
theorys to parts that have yet to be found ...which
is never because they turn to pipe dreams before
they come back  down...could I say(I love your
findings)
Pat/Moby
p/s  anything gnu on easter island...anybody (mmm)
---------------------------------------------
mike white   Wrote ;

Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: book review : hapgood's "maps of the ancient sea kings" [my musings]

'mercator, then, while he laid the basis for modern scientific cartography, did not attain the technical level of the ancients.'  his projection is useful for navigation, and is retained as the most common in use today.
babylonian mathematics 'was based on sixty and powers of sixty.'  'all numbers could be made with only two symbols.'
'it is in india more than in any other country on earth that the traditions of an ancient great world civilization are still preserved.'
in note 19, author again quotes cummings on the great age of the pyramid of cuicuilco mexico.  cyclopean masonry, without mortar, causeways instead of stairs.  three lava flows have occurred since its construction.
'so cuicuilco fell into ruins some 8500 years ago.'  three different peoples, separated by sterile layers occupied the site, testifying to a very long occupation.  temple had two massive enlargements over the ages.  18.5 ft of deposit over the original platform, with 'six successive pavements' with their altars, all buried before xitli erupted in fire.  'gives evidence of being the oldest temple yet uncovered on the american continent.'
[its reasonable to consider that there may be older temples or pyramids found, and still buried, that lack all the manners of proofs unique to this pyramid temple at cuicuilco, and could easily be assigned a more recent date, in error.  cummings assumed that it being primitive added evidence of being more ancient, this may turn out to be a fallacy, when we dig deeper.  mainline archaeologist excavators stop when their expectations are reached, usually about 35 feet of overlay deposit.  they reached olmec or whatever culture that theyve assigned a date for the earliest cultural horizon in that area [about 3,000 bce] - then they stop digging.  i think its entirely possible that we have found pyramids up to 12,000 years old, and incorrectly identified and dated them.  the mystics suggest that most pyramids, if not all, have inner chambers, that need to be found, and the cultural remains examined.  the pyramid of cholula may be much older, imho, for its said it was built by giants.  even more bizarre, is the experts giving a date for tiwanaku, no earlier than 1200 bce.  ive not read any expert who would dare guess a date for sacsayhuaman fortress.  it seems to date long before cuzco.  unless cuzco is a multi-layer cake of levels of culture, and cities.  now they think, if its inca, then its no earlier than 1400 ce, with tiwanuku ending about 1200 ce.  just common sense indicates this is total nonsense.  ruins have been found under titicaca - yet no expedition has followed-up this discovery.  cousteau made an incomplete investigation, but was foiled by the dark silted waters, making it impossible to see what lay on the bottom.  fresh water lays over heavier salt water in titicaca.  the best way is to lower the level of the lake, or pump out the heavier salt water near the bottom, if they want to keep calling it a fresh water lake, imho.  the floating islands can float lower.  the ferry boats for excursions will have to lower their operations to follow the shore.  the minerals can be extracted to pay the costs of the operations.  it should be done.  tourism will flourish.  cultured human history may be rolled back 50,000 years.  the ecosystems will not be disturbed much.  i may have to go down there and talk revolution, another o'higgins.  hoho]

Kind regards,
Mike White
http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm

a man might disbelieve something, and prove himself correct.
another man, believing, caused it to be given to him.
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