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Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

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  • william smith
    Hi Robert, Mike and all Robert makes some very good observations and comments about the mounds of the Midwest. I feel to understand these sites it would be
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 5, 2005
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      Hi Robert, Mike and all
        Robert makes some very good observations and comments about the mounds of the Midwest. I feel to understand these sites it would be good to have the Ws on the estimated 500 mounds left in Ohio of the original 10,000. The where, when, why and whats are important.
         The wheres are not to hard to establish (Serpent mound, Ft. Ancient, Newark, and so on. This data could be put in the Y (vertical) listing. The X (horizontal) header line could contain the when, why and whats and other data.
      Example:
       LOCATION   VERIFIED DATE  WHY  WHATS (human bones, pottery, fire pits, copper, other
      ft. ancient           600AD?            ?                         Y                 Y          ?         Y        Y
      serpent               500AD             ?                         Y                 Y          ?         Y        Y
      newark                   ?                  ?                         Y                 Y          ?         Y        Y
      spruce hill           800AD?            ?                         Y                 ?          ?          ?        Y
       
         With the above data (which is only an example) it would suggest 100% were grave sites, 75% were used to dispose potery, none were fire pits, 75% used metal and 100 % had other items which should be identified with additional columns.
       
       
        When the known verified Ws are filled in the date column could be used to group these sites to establish the most probable WHYS. Currently all we know is that the mounds in Ohio were burial sites, metal working sites, trash dumps, fortification sites, ca lander sites all of the above.
         This would be a major undertaking and may be a great project for a graduate student or the like to undertake, however the voluntary information that could be given by all the members of this group and other sources could develop a better understanding of the complete picture.
      Just a thought
      best regard
      William 

      robert walsh <rwscruffy53207@...> wrote:
      Hi Mike:  Not knowing the pits or type of stone you're talking about, i'll put out this info. We have limestone kilns on our historic site that in the last half of the 1800's were used to break down limestone. The worker's used a mix of different woods to achieve a temperature of 1600 degrees. An experienced worker knew when the rite temp was achieved by a blue/white color. So if these pits were shaped rite n the rite wood used, maybe the natives were accomplishing the same thing. Bob@@@

      mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
       
         harrison seems to have evidence for the classic moundbuilders.  i never liked the adena and hopewell classifications.  i speak of those who baked the clay covering their mounds, and used mica. 
         ive been pondering these pit furnaces found in mounds.  some mounds had several pit furnaces.  this makes no sense.  these planned mounds would not be used for firing pottery, or casting copper.  it occurred to me that these pit furnaces were possibly used to bake the clay cover layer of the mound, to preserve it thru long ages.  this worked very well.  i have difficulty understanding how in some cases temperatures were reached that vitrified stones.  i think pit furnaces could melt copper, too much proofs to deny, but melting stone is much hotter than they seem capable. 
         how can it be, that so many mounds and earthworks seem to be on our present surface, without the deep overlay of soil that one would expect from the relics and corruption of the bones within?  why would the habitations be deeply buried, while these public works are on top?  its almost like generations of the later tribes kept them uncovered. 
         the labors indicate a dense population, pointing to agriculture, yet we find no grainaries.  one would have expected them to have corn, and the self-sprouting cereal grasses found by others later.   
         their works suggest non-military design, as if they were not war-like, and were not threatened by warriors for much of their occupation.  yet near harrison these stone houses near classic mounds suggests genocide was finally used to destroy them.  we may need more than proximity to conclude these stone houses were inhabited by the moundbuilders of the classic era.   i hope somebody gets carbon dates for these houses. 
       
      Kind regards,
      Mike White
      http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
       

       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:26 PM
      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

      Harrison was covered with at least 20 mounds until the 1920's and between them & the stone houses was a large habitation site. The bad thing is that most of the excavations were done by the untrained and no detailed accounts written about the habitation site. As far as enclosures go, there are only 2 known within 10 miles of Harrison. The Miami Fort at Shawnee Lookout Park is about 8 miles south and the Colerain Works were 10 miles east-northeast.
       
      Between Harrison and Miami Fort, there were 3 mounds that exceeded 15 feet in height, 2 of which still exist. Also between Harrison and Miami Fort are at least 3 large habitation sites. The Cardan Site, only 2.5 miles south of Harrison, has turned up many small copper items and large amounts of burned clay layers and is home to a 20 ft. high mound. But, I doubt a dig will happen here since houses, a gravel company, railroad tracks, etc. now occupy the site.
       
      The State Line Site is one of the more favorite sites among local archaeologists, located about 3 miles north of Miami Fort. Artifacts dating from the Archaic Eras through to 1790's have been found here. Very large amounts of mica have been found. As far as I know, no copper or iron but archaeologists say they probably haven't even covered a quarter of the whole site.
       
      William, I'd be more than happy to share with you what I know about SW Ohio. Just tell me what kind of sites that you want to include. I have also thought many times of starting a map, but the sheer size it would have to be to show every little site (I am pretty anal) deals me a sharp uppercut of reality every time.
       
       


      william smith <wmsmithrock1@...> wrote:
      Hi Mike, Jim and all
         I want to be included in this task if you dont mind. I plan on doing exactly what you had in mind after the conference. If the conference was not on the schedule this weekend I would probably be puting a gosinto sheet together about this location and the surronding discovereries. When we get all the pieces put together the big picture will explain itself. I have a composit started with the Hopewell road which I am sure you have seen. When you add the calander circles at Ft. Ancient, Manchester, Newark and the other artifacts (bobs, furnaces, ect.) it starts to form a pattern. Charles Mattox needs to join this venture in that he has a lot of verified artifacts from Northern Kentucky that fits the profile.
         I as well as Susan will surly pick up some information at the conference that may assist us in task. Mike you seem to be one who is well qualified to establish the best approach. What is you take on this?
      best regards
      William

      mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
       
      hi jim, all
       
         excellent post jim.  it soulds like genocide was used againt these ancient people living in the small stone houses.  lets hope they do a carbon dating of charcoal or some other organic thing, so we can better place them in the history of ohio.  i need to study a map and determine whether this site at harrison is near to other monuments.  the ruins may be too crude to be the moundbuilders, unless they find the palace of the ruler, who could have organized the labor necessary for the earthworks.  it would be unusual for a culture to be high enough to construct these long-lasting mounds and structures, but live in perishable homes.  the moundbuilders were contemporaries of the cultures in mexico and peru.  there are many proofs in terrcotta that many races reached these early nations.  its most difficult to find two clay heads that resemble one another.  the moundbuilders were skilled boatmen, and used the rivers as roads, there is little doubt that some of them went to visit mexico, and were aware of fine stone buildings and culture, and may have brought some ideas to ohio.  they occupied ohio for many centuries, and had ample time to reach high culture. 
         lets plug in some assumptions, if the moundbuilders collapsed about 2000 bce, not an unreasonable guess based on all iron having fully eroded, and bones turn to dust very fast when exposed.  until the present, 4,000 years have passed.   soil seems to settle on ruins at the rate of a foot per century, in many cases.  that gives us a depth under the surface of 40 feet to reach the level of their buildings.  plows are mostly what has been used to excavate ohio.  maybe we just need to dig deeper in the right places to find the ancient cities
       
      Kind regards,
      Mike White
      http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
       

       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 11:23 AM
      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

      " the few tidbits that i found recently about buried moundbuilder cities, and residential areas in ancient ohio, are exciting news.  its incredible that these reports have basically gone uninvestigated and unexcavated so long, that the experts are unsure of the locations now.  all we know is south of spruce hill, and under chillicothe, some signs of buildings have been uncovered."
       
      The following might interest you Mr. White. It is written within the Western Gazeteer by Samuel Brown in 1817, and quoted within Frederick Starr's The Archaeology of Hamilton County Ohio. It's describing an area near Harrison, Harrison Twsp.:
       
      "On the neighboring hills, northeast of the town, are a number of the remains of stone houses. They were covered with soil, brush, and full grown trees. We cleared away the earth, roots and rubbish from one of them, and found it to be anciently occupied as a dwelling. It was about twelve feet square; the walls had fallen nearly to the foundation. They appeared to have been built by rough stones. Not the least trace of iron tools having been employed to smooth the face of them, could be perceived. At one end of the building, we came to a regular hearth, containing ashes and coals; before which we found the bones of eight persons of different ages, from a small child to the heads of the family. The positions of their skeletons clearly indicated that their deaths were sudden and simultaneous."
       


      mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
       
         i bet you could carry me up the hill.  lets hope we find enough sites that we can access together, without this being needed.  2 chinese guys carried me up a few mountains to holy places and temples.  i tipped them well, even though tipping is not expected in china.  humboldt refused to disrespect a man, by riding those termed 'caballeros' in the andes, but then he was in his early twenties, not near 60.  im about 180 lbs, and prefer to walk, if i can take lots of short breaks. 
         it would be fun and easier if we took a canoe trip down a river in ross co, like paint creek, or another with mounds and sites along them.  several of us talked about this before but we never made a plan when most are available.  even if i relocate, trips to ohio are high on my list of interesting things to do. 
         william, are you living year round in mansfield ohio now?  i thought your main home was in florida. 
         no, i havent caught the stuff pam posted yet.  spruce hill is an interesting place.  i should have stopped on the way down, instead of taking a motel in ky so early, but i was afraid that i would lose track of time, and not leave enough days in the carolinas to find a house we like.  there will be other times.  we expect to travel lots after getting our home in order.  another trip to china possibly in the spring to fall, and maybe the andes in 2007, God willing.  i was told living costs for gringos is much higher now in the andes, than i thought from my old books and guides.  i still hope to afford it one day.  i may have to carry a hammock to hang to see all i want to explore. 
         the few tidbits that i found recently about buried moundbuilder cities, and residential areas in ancient ohio, are exciting news.  its incredible that these reports have basically gone uninvestigated and unexcavated so long, that the experts are unsure of the locations now.  all we know is south of spruce hill, and under chillicothe, some signs of buildings have been uncovered. 
       
      mike
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 2:00 AM
      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

      Hi Mike
         Yes we caught a lot of fish, however the rock took up a lot of fishing time. I did get Susan a lake trout. Thanks for the information on the large flat rocks. You know I am an engineer and will try to figure how less than 20,000 men could construct them.
         Did you see the information Pam posted on the THOR site about other items found at Spruce Hill? It could be a mold to fabricate a BOB used with the sun dial and the drum base.
         I have been reading some of the e-mail and if we can not get a horse or donkey I will carry you up the hill.
      best regards
      William 

      mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
       
      hi william, all
       
         what no fish story to tell?  i hope all had a fine week on the lake.  your invitation is most gracious william, there will soon be three of us in my family.  at a convenient time in the future we may make a brief visit.  susan has opened her sofa to guests often.  its so good that folks help each other with hospitality.  homer impressed me with the hospitality of the greeks.  then as now, one never knows when we entertain an angel disguised in rags. 
         we may have a big enough house in western nc soon, to have lots of room for guests.  its one of my favorite places, close to smokey mts np, rafting, waterfalls, 100s of mt trails, or mine for rubies.  if all goes well, we may move in early december, and escape the worst of michigan winter.   
         these trilithons or dolmen, with the flat stone on top, could have been used to stand a sundial, but they went to lots of unneeded labor, considering the tonnage of the stones erected.  any beach would have sufficed.  we recall, that condamine measured and layed-out his degree of latitude on the equator near quito, not such a flat place.  these new england dolmen and monuments are an anomaly on our shores, and seem to relate to the megalithic builders of europe, more, than to any other structures in america.  logic and intuition, both point to these megaliths having been built by giants.  often these structures seem to have as their primary message, look little men of tomorrow, what we giants could do!   it would certainly be hard and expensive, to gather the necessary 1000s of modern men, and engage them in transporting, lifting, and erecting these stones, for no apparent reason or need.  the earliest modern men that ive read about, threw up tumuli to honor their dead heroes.  it seems entirely wrong to conclude that megaliths were erected by the little 5 footers predicted by darwin for this early period.  some of these stones would require up to 20,000 men, if they each lifted 100 lbs.  this is unlikely.  considering the vast amount of circumstantial evidence for giants long ago, this seems the more reasonable deduction. 
         its written that some ancients had the ability to raise stones by some unknown force or method.  sacsayhuaman laughs at our puny efforts.  they cut so many angles as a brag to their engineering and other abilities.  they certainly did not raise and lower such masses the dozens of times that we would need to fit those angles so closely, imho.  these two areas in the americas have megalths, but distinctly different from each other.  the andeans may have been more evolved giants, or atlanteans as cayce stated.  i bet both sites truly date deep into the pliocene era.  you got me going again, hehe. 
       
      Kind regards,
      Mike White
      http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 11:59 PM
      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

      Hi Mike, Pam and All
         Just returned from Canada fishing with my father and in the process of catching up on about 300 e-mails. Sorry to hear of your traffic jams in Ohio Mike. I was hoping to see your results of the drum rock at Spruce Hill. I want to go with you and Pam and all after the upcoming conference. I spent a lot of time during the last week reviewing the presentation we are giving at the conference in front of an audience of 7 fisherman. I dont know if they were impresed or confused but as we departed all took down our e-mail address and two of the seven were leaving to buy a computer.
         My father made an important statement in that if the ancients were using a sun dial for reading the sun and moon they would need a level flat surface to obtain their readings. He noticed some photos of large flat rocks supported by 3 rocks in most cases from Berry Fells (America BC). These were mostly in the eastern states and would make perfect observation platforms to set the dial upon.
         Mike when you schedule a trip to Ohio you are more than welcome to lodge at my home.
      William
      ps. Pam
      : I hope you bring your lap top.

      mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
       
      hi pam, all
       
         thanks for the info on ohio.  i appreciate the warning on hill fort, my operation seems to have been unsuccessful in getting proper circulation in my right leg, so i cannot do long trails or uphills very far.  its been too many years since i toured the earthworks of ohio.  ive read much since then, so now have a new list of sites to explore.  there is so much to see.  in total, i have spent about 3 weeks exploring the mounds, seeing most of the main sites only.  i just scratched the surface.  now i need to spend a week visiting the hill forts.  it would take 2 weeks i bet, just to drive and a brief visit to the numerous effigy mounds.  a roadtrip to ohio's furnaces could easily fill a week.  its a very pleasant place, away from traffic.  lol
         i would love to see it all from a small plane or balloon, so possibly the entire design of the earliest moundbuilders might be discerned, from the other unplanned additions.  make an effort to see the whole, instead of merely studying the individual sites.  the nps is trying to practice that.  the mounds have pit furnaces, and the stone fort at spruce hill has furnaces or sites of intense heat, so the nps may lump them together.  i think its the right idea to look for wholes, but the stone forts are probably unrelated to the mound builders, making two separate wholes.  the line of stone forts below erie running east - west, are possibly another group, to be considered separate.  it may be easier to understand these separate groups, if we dont mix them up on our explorations.  if not different people, the structures may be far removed from each other in time.  this may not be practical in practice, because some mounds can be near hill forts, or funaces, and the price of gas what it is.  somebody energetic needs to build a database of the different classes of ancient monuments in ohio. 
         i want to bring up something we need to consider.  most are aware of the earthworks of ohio.  less known are the mounds and tumuli of penn and new york.  some wonderful, and mysterious tombs were found in the 19th c [see corliss].  little has been heard on them recently.  caleb atwater wrote about this area in part.  many tombs of giants are reported in this region.  at least one had a strange inscription.  many bones and relics have vanished, leaving us only the accounts of witnesses, and a few old photos.  cayce just said some mysterious mounds from lemurians were in this area.  in this case, they must be among the earliest on our soil.  i certainly hope to find more information on sites in this district. 
       
       
      Kind regards,
      Mike White
      http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm

       


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    • mike white
      hi bob, all limestone does have a lower melting temperature than most other stones. i did look up the melting point of several stones and metals during my
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 5, 2005
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        hi bob, all
         
           limestone does have a lower melting temperature than most other stones.  i did look up the melting point of several stones and metals during my study of precolumbian furnaces recently.   men have been burning limestone for mortar, cement, and concrete for ages.  the bellows is such a simple invention that it could have been learned from near the beginning.  they could see what wind does to fire.  the vitrified stones in ohio may have been sandstone, but vitrified granite is found among scotlands hill forts.  i forget the numbers, but much more heat is required than for limestone.   the clay layer of a mound is very hard baked.  pick axes were needed.   they carried mica and clay from possibly hundreds of miles away, to prepare the mound properly.  i dont think pit furnaces were for lime production.  i dont know of them using mortar or cement in the  mounds.  it may be important to the archaeologist, to determine the purpose of furnaces that are uncovered.  the more air in the fire pit of a furnace, the hotter it gets.  putting a furnace in a pit seems illogical, unless less heat for another purpose was needed.    
         
        mike
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 6:18 PM
        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

        Hi Mike:  Not knowing the pits or type of stone you're talking about, i'll put out this info. We have limestone kilns on our historic site that in the last half of the 1800's were used to break down limestone. The worker's used a mix of different woods to achieve a temperature of 1600 degrees. An experienced worker knew when the rite temp was achieved by a blue/white color. So if these pits were shaped rite n the rite wood used, maybe the natives were accomplishing the same thing. Bob@@@

      • Jim Geisler
        Great idea William. Though I do believe we should include those earthworks that no longer exist when possible, every little bit of info will help. william
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 6, 2005
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          Great idea William. Though I do believe we should include those earthworks that no longer exist when possible, every little bit of info will help.


          william smith <wmsmithrock1@...> wrote:
          Hi Robert, Mike and all
            Robert makes some very good observations and comments about the mounds of the Midwest. I feel to understand these sites it would be good to have the Ws on the estimated 500 mounds left in Ohio of the original 10,000. The where, when, why and whats are important.
             The wheres are not to hard to establish (Serpent mound, Ft. Ancient, Newark, and so on. This data could be put in the Y (vertical) listing. The X (horizontal) header line could contain the when, why and whats and other data.
          Example:
           LOCATION   VERIFIED DATE  WHY  WHATS (human bones, pottery, fire pits, copper, other
          ft. ancient           600AD?            ?                         Y                 Y          ?         Y        Y
          serpent               500AD             ?                         Y                 Y          ?         Y        Y
          newark                   ?                  ?                         Y                 Y          ?         Y        Y
          spruce hill           800AD?            ?                         Y                 ?          ?          ?        Y
           
             With the above data (which is only an example) it would suggest 100% were grave sites, 75% were used to dispose potery, none were fire pits, 75% used metal and 100 % had other items which should be identified with additional columns.
           
           
            When the known verified Ws are filled in the date column could be used to group these sites to establish the most probable WHYS. Currently all we know is that the mounds in Ohio were burial sites, metal working sites, trash dumps, fortification sites, ca lander sites all of the above.
             This would be a major undertaking and may be a great project for a graduate student or the like to undertake, however the voluntary information that could be given by all the members of this group and other sources could develop a better understanding of the complete picture.
          Just a thought
          best regard
          William 

          robert walsh <rwscruffy53207@...> wrote:
          Hi Mike:  Not knowing the pits or type of stone you're talking about, i'll put out this info. We have limestone kilns on our historic site that in the last half of the 1800's were used to break down limestone. The worker's used a mix of different woods to achieve a temperature of 1600 degrees. An experienced worker knew when the rite temp was achieved by a blue/white color. So if these pits were shaped rite n the rite wood used, maybe the natives were accomplishing the same thing. Bob@@@

          mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
           
             harrison seems to have evidence for the classic moundbuilders.  i never liked the adena and hopewell classifications.  i speak of those who baked the clay covering their mounds, and used mica. 
             ive been pondering these pit furnaces found in mounds.  some mounds had several pit furnaces.  this makes no sense.  these planned mounds would not be used for firing pottery, or casting copper.  it occurred to me that these pit furnaces were possibly used to bake the clay cover layer of the mound, to preserve it thru long ages.  this worked very well.  i have difficulty understanding how in some cases temperatures were reached that vitrified stones.  i think pit furnaces could melt copper, too much proofs to deny, but melting stone is much hotter than they seem capable. 
             how can it be, that so many mounds and earthworks seem to be on our present surface, without the deep overlay of soil that one would expect from the relics and corruption of the bones within?  why would the habitations be deeply buried, while these public works are on top?  its almost like generations of the later tribes kept them uncovered. 
             the labors indicate a dense population, pointing to agriculture, yet we find no grainaries.  one would have expected them to have corn, and the self-sprouting cereal grasses found by others later.   
             their works suggest non-military design, as if they were not war-like, and were not threatened by warriors for much of their occupation.  yet near harrison these stone houses near classic mounds suggests genocide was finally used to destroy them.  we may need more than proximity to conclude these stone houses were inhabited by the moundbuilders of the classic era.   i hope somebody gets carbon dates for these houses. 
           
          Kind regards,
          Mike White
          http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
           

           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:26 PM
          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

          Harrison was covered with at least 20 mounds until the 1920's and between them & the stone houses was a large habitation site. The bad thing is that most of the excavations were done by the untrained and no detailed accounts written about the habitation site. As far as enclosures go, there are only 2 known within 10 miles of Harrison. The Miami Fort at Shawnee Lookout Park is about 8 miles south and the Colerain Works were 10 miles east-northeast.
           
          Between Harrison and Miami Fort, there were 3 mounds that exceeded 15 feet in height, 2 of which still exist. Also between Harrison and Miami Fort are at least 3 large habitation sites. The Cardan Site, only 2.5 miles south of Harrison, has turned up many small copper items and large amounts of burned clay layers and is home to a 20 ft. high mound. But, I doubt a dig will happen here since houses, a gravel company, railroad tracks, etc. now occupy the site.
           
          The State Line Site is one of the more favorite sites among local archaeologists, located about 3 miles north of Miami Fort. Artifacts dating from the Archaic Eras through to 1790's have been found here. Very large amounts of mica have been found. As far as I know, no copper or iron but archaeologists say they probably haven't even covered a quarter of the whole site.
           
          William, I'd be more than happy to share with you what I know about SW Ohio. Just tell me what kind of sites that you want to include. I have also thought many times of starting a map, but the sheer size it would have to be to show every little site (I am pretty anal) deals me a sharp uppercut of reality every time.
           
           


          william smith <wmsmithrock1@...> wrote:
          Hi Mike, Jim and all
             I want to be included in this task if you dont mind. I plan on doing exactly what you had in mind after the conference. If the conference was not on the schedule this weekend I would probably be puting a gosinto sheet together about this location and the surronding discovereries. When we get all the pieces put together the big picture will explain itself. I have a composit started with the Hopewell road which I am sure you have seen. When you add the calander circles at Ft. Ancient, Manchester, Newark and the other artifacts (bobs, furnaces, ect.) it starts to form a pattern. Charles Mattox needs to join this venture in that he has a lot of verified artifacts from Northern Kentucky that fits the profile.
             I as well as Susan will surly pick up some information at the conference that may assist us in task. Mike you seem to be one who is well qualified to establish the best approach. What is you take on this?
          best regards
          William

          mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
           
          hi jim, all
           
             excellent post jim.  it soulds like genocide was used againt these ancient people living in the small stone houses.  lets hope they do a carbon dating of charcoal or some other organic thing, so we can better place them in the history of ohio.  i need to study a map and determine whether this site at harrison is near to other monuments.  the ruins may be too crude to be the moundbuilders, unless they find the palace of the ruler, who could have organized the labor necessary for the earthworks.  it would be unusual for a culture to be high enough to construct these long-lasting mounds and structures, but live in perishable homes.  the moundbuilders were contemporaries of the cultures in mexico and peru.  there are many proofs in terrcotta that many races reached these early nations.  its most difficult to find two clay heads that resemble one another.  the moundbuilders were skilled boatmen, and used the rivers as roads, there is little doubt that some of them went to visit mexico, and were aware of fine stone buildings and culture, and may have brought some ideas to ohio.  they occupied ohio for many centuries, and had ample time to reach high culture. 
             lets plug in some assumptions, if the moundbuilders collapsed about 2000 bce, not an unreasonable guess based on all iron having fully eroded, and bones turn to dust very fast when exposed.  until the present, 4,000 years have passed.   soil seems to settle on ruins at the rate of a foot per century, in many cases.  that gives us a depth under the surface of 40 feet to reach the level of their buildings.  plows are mostly what has been used to excavate ohio.  maybe we just need to dig deeper in the right places to find the ancient cities
           
          Kind regards,
          Mike White
          http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
           

           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 11:23 AM
          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

          " the few tidbits that i found recently about buried moundbuilder cities, and residential areas in ancient ohio, are exciting news.  its incredible that these reports have basically gone uninvestigated and unexcavated so long, that the experts are unsure of the locations now.  all we know is south of spruce hill, and under chillicothe, some signs of buildings have been uncovered."
           
          The following might interest you Mr. White. It is written within the Western Gazeteer by Samuel Brown in 1817, and quoted within Frederick Starr's The Archaeology of Hamilton County Ohio. It's describing an area near Harrison, Harrison Twsp.:
           
          "On the neighboring hills, northeast of the town, are a number of the remains of stone houses. They were covered with soil, brush, and full grown trees. We cleared away the earth, roots and rubbish from one of them, and found it to be anciently occupied as a dwelling. It was about twelve feet square; the walls had fallen nearly to the foundation. They appeared to have been built by rough stones. Not the least trace of iron tools having been employed to smooth the face of them, could be perceived. At one end of the building, we came to a regular hearth, containing ashes and coals; before which we found the bones of eight persons of different ages, from a small child to the heads of the family. The positions of their skeletons clearly indicated that their deaths were sudden and simultaneous."
           


          mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
           
             i bet you could carry me up the hill.  lets hope we find enough sites that we can access together, without this being needed.  2 chinese guys carried me up a few mountains to holy places and temples.  i tipped them well, even though tipping is not expected in china.  humboldt refused to disrespect a man, by riding those termed 'caballeros' in the andes, but then he was in his early twenties, not near 60.  im about 180 lbs, and prefer to walk, if i can take lots of short breaks. 
             it would be fun and easier if we took a canoe trip down a river in ross co, like paint creek, or another with mounds and sites along them.  several of us talked about this before but we never made a plan when most are available.  even if i relocate, trips to ohio are high on my list of interesting things to do. 
             william, are you living year round in mansfield ohio now?  i thought your main home was in florida. 
             no, i havent caught the stuff pam posted yet.  spruce hill is an interesting place.  i should have stopped on the way down, instead of taking a motel in ky so early, but i was afraid that i would lose track of time, and not leave enough days in the carolinas to find a house we like.  there will be other times.  we expect to travel lots after getting our home in order.  another trip to china possibly in the spring to fall, and maybe the andes in 2007, God willing.  i was told living costs for gringos is much higher now in the andes, than i thought from my old books and guides.  i still hope to afford it one day.  i may have to carry a hammock to hang to see all i want to explore. 
             the few tidbits that i found recently about buried moundbuilder cities, and residential areas in ancient ohio, are exciting news.  its incredible that these reports have basically gone uninvestigated and unexcavated so long, that the experts are unsure of the locations now.  all we know is south of spruce hill, and under chillicothe, some signs of buildings have been uncovered. 
           
          mike
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 2:00 AM
          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

          Hi Mike
             Yes we caught a lot of fish, however the rock took up a lot of fishing time. I did get Susan a lake trout. Thanks for the information on the large flat rocks. You know I am an engineer and will try to figure how less than 20,000 men could construct them.
             Did you see the information Pam posted on the THOR site about other items found at Spruce Hill? It could be a mold to fabricate a BOB used with the sun dial and the drum base.
             I have been reading some of the e-mail and if we can not get a horse or donkey I will carry you up the hill.
          best regards
          William 

          mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
           
          hi william, all
           
             what no fish story to tell?  i hope all had a fine week on the lake.  your invitation is most gracious william, there will soon be three of us in my family.  at a convenient time in the future we may make a brief visit.  susan has opened her sofa to guests often.  its so good that folks help each other with hospitality.  homer impressed me with the hospitality of the greeks.  then as now, one never knows when we entertain an angel disguised in rags. 
             we may have a big enough house in western nc soon, to have lots of room for guests.  its one of my favorite places, close to smokey mts np, rafting, waterfalls, 100s of mt trails, or mine for rubies.  if all goes well, we may move in early december, and escape the worst of michigan winter.   
             these trilithons or dolmen, with the flat stone on top, could have been used to stand a sundial, but they went to lots of unneeded labor, considering the tonnage of the stones erected.  any beach would have sufficed.  we recall, that condamine measured and layed-out his degree of latitude on the equator near quito, not such a flat place.  these new england dolmen and monuments are an anomaly on our shores, and seem to relate to the megalithic builders of europe, more, than to any other structures in america.  logic and intuition, both point to these megaliths having been built by giants.  often these structures seem to have as their primary message, look little men of tomorrow, what we giants could do!   it would certainly be hard and expensive, to gather the necessary 1000s of modern men, and engage them in transporting, lifting, and erecting these stones, for no apparent reason or need.  the earliest modern men that ive read about, threw up tumuli to honor their dead heroes.  it seems entirely wrong to conclude that megaliths were erected by the little 5 footers predicted by darwin for this early period.  some of these stones would require up to 20,000 men, if they each lifted 100 lbs.  this is unlikely.  considering the vast amount of circumstantial evidence for giants long ago, this seems the more reasonable deduction. 
             its written that some ancients had the ability to raise stones by some unknown force or method.  sacsayhuaman laughs at our puny efforts.  they cut so many angles as a brag to their engineering and other abilities.  they certainly did not raise and lower such masses the dozens of times that we would need to fit those angles so closely, imho.  these two areas in the americas have megalths, but distinctly different from each other.  the andeans may have been more evolved giants, or atlanteans as cayce stated.  i bet both sites truly date deep into the pliocene era.  you got me going again, hehe. 
           
          Kind regards,
          Mike White
          http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 11:59 PM
          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

          Hi Mike, Pam and All
             Just returned from Canada fishing with my father and in the process of catching up on about 300 e-mails. Sorry to hear of your traffic jams in Ohio Mike. I was hoping to see your results of the drum rock at Spruce Hill. I want to go with you and Pam and all after the upcoming conference. I spent a lot of time during the last week reviewing the presentation we are giving at the conference in front of an audience of 7 fisherman. I dont know if they were impresed or confused but as we departed all took down our e-mail address and two of the seven were leaving to buy a computer.
             My father made an important statement in that if the ancients were using a sun dial for reading the sun and moon they would need a level flat surface to obtain their readings. He noticed some photos of large flat rocks supported by 3 rocks in most cases from Berry Fells (America BC). These were mostly in the eastern states and would make perfect observation platforms to set the dial upon.
             Mike when you schedule a trip to Ohio you are more than welcome to lodge at my home.
          William
          ps. Pam
          : I hope you bring your lap top.

          mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
           
          hi pam, all
           
             thanks for the info on ohio.  i appreciate the warning on hill fort, my operation seems to have been unsuccessful in getting proper circulation in my right leg, so i cannot do long trails or uphills very far.  its been too many years since i toured the earthworks of ohio.  ive read much since then, so now have a new list of sites to explore.  there is so much to see.  in total, i have spent about 3 weeks exploring the mounds, seeing most of the main sites only.  i just scratched the surface.  now i need to spend a week visiting the hill forts.  it would take 2 weeks i bet, just to drive and a brief visit to the numerous effigy mounds.  a roadtrip to ohio's furnaces could easily fill a week.  its a very pleasant place, away from traffic.  lol
             i would love to see it all from a small plane or balloon, so possibly the entire design of the earliest moundbuilders might be discerned, from the other unplanned additions.  make an effort to see the whole, instead of merely studying the individual sites.  the nps is trying to practice that.  the mounds have pit furnaces, and the stone fort at spruce hill has furnaces or sites of intense heat, so the nps may lump them together.  i think its the right idea to look for wholes, but the stone forts are probably unrelated to the mound builders, making two separate wholes.  the line of stone forts below erie running east - west, are possibly another group, to be considered separate.  it may be easier to understand these separate groups, if we dont mix them up on our explorations.  if not different people, the structures may be far removed from each other in time.  this may not be practical in practice, because some mounds can be near hill forts, or funaces, and the price of gas what it is.  somebody energetic needs to build a database of the different classes of ancient monuments in ohio. 
             i want to bring up something we need to consider.  most are aware of the earthworks of ohio.  less known are the mounds and tumuli of penn and new york.  some wonderful, and mysterious tombs were found in the 19th c [see corliss].  little has been heard on them recently.  caleb atwater wrote about this area in part.  many tombs of giants are reported in this region.  at least one had a strange inscription.  many bones and relics have vanished, leaving us only the accounts of witnesses, and a few old photos.  cayce just said some mysterious mounds from lemurians were in this area.  in this case, they must be among the earliest on our soil.  i certainly hope to find more information on sites in this district. 
           
           
          Kind regards,
          Mike White
          http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm

           


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        • reinoud dejonge
          Hi William, I like to give a short comment.The knowledge of latitudes is very old, from before c.4700 BC. America was discovered c.2600 BC by Egyptians via the
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 7, 2005
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment

            Hi William,

            I like to give a short comment.The knowledge of latitudes is very old, from before c.4700 BC. America was discovered c.2600 BC by Egyptians via the Aleutian Islands, and a century later, c.2500 BC, via the Atlantic. Your Sundial was found at 38 degrees N, which is the latitude of the Azores, and also the complementary latitude of the southern Aleutians, 90-38= 52 degrees N. If this information is relevant, I don�t know. The local degree of latitude was also measured as the shortest angle between the North Star and the ground. The use of longitude is from much later date, after the birth of Christ.

            Regards,

            Reinoud

             

            From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
            Reply-To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
            To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts
            Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 14:18:45 -0700 (PDT)

            Reinooud
               For some reason Mike thought I lived in Flordia and I was just making sure he was advised I live in West Chester, Ohio.
              I was not aware that the holy latitude of the Egyptians was 26.5 N. A rock mould which was used to fabricate a hammerfused coper sun dial was found on my farm in 1977 which is on the 38 lat. N. I do not live on the farm but at West Chester on the 39 lat. N.
               When the ancients carved the rock to fabricate a coper sun dials they only new the latitude they were familiar with which is 26.4 lat. N.
               To determine their new location or latitude they would observe the position of the sun on the day of the equanox and tilt the sun dial untill the shadow created on the ground was a straight line created from the shadow of a ring which hung on the rod pointing to the north star. The change of degree was observed on the inner dial of the sun dial via a bob which was hung from a fixed point in the upper leg of the dial.
               I wrote a theory (Smiths theory of ancient navigation) in 1979 which explains how the ancients established their new location on the earth using the position of the sun for latitude and the position of the moon to determine their longitude.
               The ancients recorded their new location on the earth via sun god symbols. To date 33 of these symbols have been plotted on a world map and indicate the ancients (including the ancestors of the Egyptians) came from a common point in the Atlantic Ocean about 5000 years ago.
               I am not an expert on Egyptian history or any other group of people on earth, however I am a Mechanical engineer and believe theorys are only facts after they reach a six sigma level. With the help from Mike White, Charles Mattox, Pam Giese, Susan, Jim, Charles and many others from the Precolumbian-Incriptions group as well as My local THOR group we plan on releasing this information to the public at the AAAPF Conf. on Ancient America, on Oct. 7,8 and 9th.
               Much of the early research on this artifact was accomplished by myself and the late Barry Fell. After Mr Fell passed away in 1986 I continued gathering data that now supports the theory at a scientific engineering level.
               The upcoming conference is this weekend and hopefully the 9 representivies present from the Precolumbian_Inscriptions group and the THOR group can provide a positive results.
               Thank you and all the other members of the two groups for your support. With 5 TV and 20 radio stations as well as all the local news media planned at the conference I am hoping the groups will get a lot of new information in the future.
            best regards
            William
            reinoud dejonge <Drsrmdejonge@...> wrote:

            Hi, William,

            I don�t understand all aspects of your problem, but I know the importance of the latitude of 26.5�N. This is the holy latitude of the United Egyptian Empire, halfway the Northern Egyptian Empire, at 30�N, and the Southern Egyptian Empire, at 23�N. This last latitude also coincides with the center of the Sunreligion, and with the holy Tropic of Cancer, at 23�N. The center of the United Egyptian Empire was important during all Dynasties of Egypt.

            Reinoud de Jonge




            From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
            Reply-To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
            To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts
            Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 11:23:00 -0700 (PDT)

            Hi Mike
               I will try to correct the records. I do not live in Flordia or Mansfield. I live in West Chester, Ohio, probably about 40 miles from Spruce Hill. The Ohio Rock was found on my farm in Manchester, Ohio which is about 90 miles from West Chester. Sorry for the confusion.
               Manchester is not far from Chilicothie. I can not wait untill this conference is over to start adding all the new pieces together and verifying their relation. When all the pieces are in the correct position we will see the complete picture. When this is complete we will need a boat bigger than a canoe to go to the 26.4 latitude and the 65 long. to find what was so interesting to the ancient Americans in the Atlantic ocean. 

            mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
             
               i bet you could carry me up the hill.  lets hope we find enough sites that we can access together, without this being needed.  2 chinese guys carried me up a few mountains to holy places and temples.  i tipped them well, even though tipping is not expected in china.  humboldt refused to disrespect a man, by riding those termed 'caballeros' in the andes, but then he was in his early twenties, not near 60.  im about 180 lbs, and prefer to walk, if i can take lots of short breaks. 
               it would be fun and easier if we took a canoe trip down a river in ross co, like paint creek, or another with mounds and sites along them.  several of us talked about this before but we never made a plan when most are available.  even if i relocate, trips to ohio are high on my list of interesting things to do. 
               william, are you living year round in mansfield ohio now?  i thought your main home was in florida. 
               no, i havent caught the stuff pam posted yet.  spruce hill is an interesting place.  i should have stopped on the way down, instead of taking a motel in ky so early, but i was afraid that i would lose track of time, and not leave enough days in the carolinas to find a house we like.  there will be other times.  we expect to travel lots after getting our home in order.  another trip to china possibly in the spring to fall, and maybe the andes in 2007, God willing.  i was told living costs for gringos is much higher now in the andes, than i thought from my old books and guides.  i still hope to afford it one day.  i may have to carry a hammock to hang to see all i want to explore. 
               the few tidbits that i found recently about buried moundbuilder cities, and residential areas in ancient ohio, are exciting news.  its incredible that these reports have basically gone uninvestigated and unexcavated so long, that the experts are unsure of the locations now.  all we know is south of spruce hill, and under chillicothe, some signs of buildings have been uncovered. 
             
            mike
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 2:00 AM
            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

            Hi Mike
               Yes we caught a lot of fish, however the rock took up a lot of fishing time. I did get Susan a lake trout. Thanks for the information on the large flat rocks. You know I am an engineer and will try to figure how less than 20,000 men could construct them.
               Did you see the information Pam posted on the THOR site about other items found at Spruce Hill? It could be a mold to fabricate a BOB used with the sun dial and the drum base.
               I have been reading some of the e-mail and if we can not get a horse or donkey I will carry you up the hill.
            best regards
            William 

            mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
             
            hi william, all
             
               what no fish story to tell?  i hope all had a fine week on the lake.  your invitation is most gracious william, there will soon be three of us in my family.  at a convenient time in the future we may make a brief visit.  susan has opened her sofa to guests often.  its so good that folks help each other with hospitality.  homer impressed me with the hospitality of the greeks.  then as now, one never knows when we entertain an angel disguised in rags. 
               we may have a big enough house in western nc soon, to have lots of room for guests.  its one of my favorite places, close to smokey mts np, rafting, waterfalls, 100s of mt trails, or mine for rubies.  if all goes well, we may move in early december, and escape the worst of michigan winter.   
               these trilithons or dolmen, with the flat stone on top, could have been used to stand a sundial, but they went to lots of unneeded labor, considering the tonnage of the stones erected.  any beach would have sufficed.  we recall, that condamine measured and layed-out his degree of latitude on the equator near quito, not such a flat place.  these new england dolmen and monuments are an anomaly on our shores, and seem to relate to the megalithic builders of europe, more, than to any other structures in america.  logic and intuition, both point to these megaliths having been built by giants.  often these structures seem to have as their primary message, look little men of tomorrow, what we giants could do!   it would certainly be hard and expensive, to gather the necessary 1000s of modern men, and engage them in transporting, lifting, and erecting these stones, for no apparent reason or need.  the earliest modern men that ive read about, threw up tumuli to honor their dead heroes.  it seems entirely wrong to conclude that megaliths were erected by the little 5 footers predicted by darwin for this early period.  some of these stones would require up to 20,000 men, if they each lifted 100 lbs.  this is unlikely.  considering the vast amount of circumstantial evidence for giants long ago, this seems the more reasonable deduction. 
               its written that some ancients had the ability to raise stones by some unknown force or method.  sacsayhuaman laughs at our puny efforts.  they cut so many angles as a brag to their engineering and other abilities.  they certainly did not raise and lower such masses the dozens of times that we would need to fit those angles so closely, imho.  these two areas in the americas have megalths, but distinctly different from each other.  the andeans may have been more evolved giants, or atlanteans as cayce stated.  i bet both sites truly date deep into the pliocene era.  you got me going again, hehe. 
             
            Kind regards,
            Mike White
            http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 11:59 PM
            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

            Hi Mike, Pam and All
               Just returned from Canada fishing with my father and in the process of catching up on about 300 e-mails. Sorry to hear of your traffic jams in Ohio Mike. I was hoping to see your results of the drum rock at Spruce Hill. I want to go with you and Pam and all after the upcoming conference. I spent a lot of time during the last week reviewing the presentation we are giving at the conference in front of an audience of 7 fisherman. I dont know if they were impresed or confused but as we departed all took down our e-mail address and two of the seven were leaving to buy a computer.
               My father made an important statement in that if the ancients were using a sun dial for reading the sun and moon they would need a level flat surface to obtain their readings. He noticed some photos of large flat rocks supported by 3 rocks in most cases from Berry Fells (America BC). These were mostly in the eastern states and would make perfect observation platforms to set the dial upon.
               Mike when you schedule a trip to Ohio you are more than welcome to lodge at my home.
            William
            ps. Pam
            : I hope you bring your lap top.

            mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
             
            hi pam, all
             
               thanks for the info on ohio.  i appreciate the warning on hill fort, my operation seems to have been unsuccessful in getting proper circulation in my right leg, so i cannot do long trails or uphills very far.  its been too many years since i toured the earthworks of ohio.  ive read much since then, so now have a new list of sites to explore.  there is so much to see.  in total, i have spent about 3 weeks exploring the mounds, seeing most of the main sites only.  i just scratched the surface.  now i need to spend a week visiting the hill forts.  it would take 2 weeks i bet, just to drive and a brief visit to the numerous effigy mounds.  a roadtrip to ohio's furnaces could easily fill a week.  its a very pleasant place, away from traffic.  lol
               i would love to see it all from a small plane or balloon, so possibly the entire design of the earliest moundbuilders might be discerned, from the other unplanned additions.  make an effort to see the whole, instead of merely studying the individual sites.  the nps is trying to practice that.  the mounds have pit furnaces, and the stone fort at spruce hill has furnaces or sites of intense heat, so the nps may lump them together.  i think its the right idea to look for wholes, but the stone forts are probably unrelated to the mound builders, making two separate wholes.  the line of stone forts below erie running east - west, are possibly another group, to be considered separate.  it may be easier to understand these separate groups, if we dont mix them up on our explorations.  if not different people, the structures may be far removed from each other in time.  this may not be practical in practice, because some mounds can be near hill forts, or funaces, and the price of gas what it is.  somebody energetic needs to build a database of the different classes of ancient monuments in ohio. 
               i want to bring up something we need to consider.  most are aware of the earthworks of ohio.  less known are the mounds and tumuli of penn and new york.  some wonderful, and mysterious tombs were found in the 19th c [see corliss].  little has been heard on them recently.  caleb atwater wrote about this area in part.  many tombs of giants are reported in this region.  at least one had a strange inscription.  many bones and relics have vanished, leaving us only the accounts of witnesses, and a few old photos.  cayce just said some mysterious mounds from lemurians were in this area.  in this case, they must be among the earliest on our soil.  i certainly hope to find more information on sites in this district. 
             
             
            Kind regards,
            Mike White
            http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm

             


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          • mike white
            hi reinoud, all i knew that latitudes were demonstrated in the charts of ptolemy. can you point me to a mention of latitudes ca 4700 bce. it doesnt surprise
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 7, 2005
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
               
              hi reinoud, all
               
                 i knew that latitudes were demonstrated in the charts of ptolemy.  can you point me to a mention of latitudes ca 4700 bce.  it doesnt surprise that they knew, only that we found such an early proof. 
               
              regards
              mike
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 3:03 PM
              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

              Hi William,

              I like to give a short comment.The knowledge of latitudes is very old, from before c.4700 BC. America was discovered c.2600 BC by Egyptians via the Aleutian Islands, and a century later, c.2500 BC, via the Atlantic. Your Sundial was found at 38 degrees N, which is the latitude of the Azores, and also the complementary latitude of the southern Aleutians, 90-38= 52 degrees N. If this information is relevant, I don’t know. The local degree of latitude was also measured as the shortest angle between the North Star and the ground. The use of longitude is from much later date, after the birth of Christ.

              Regards,

              Reinoud

               

              From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
              Reply-To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
              To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts
              Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 14:18:45 -0700 (PDT)

              Reinooud
                 For some reason Mike thought I lived in Flordia and I was just making sure he was advised I live in West Chester, Ohio.
                I was not aware that the holy latitude of the Egyptians was 26.5 N. A rock mould which was used to fabricate a hammerfused coper sun dial was found on my farm in 1977 which is on the 38 lat. N. I do not live on the farm but at West Chester on the 39 lat. N.
                 When the ancients carved the rock to fabricate a coper sun dials they only new the latitude they were familiar with which is 26.4 lat. N.
                 To determine their new location or latitude they would observe the position of the sun on the day of the equanox and tilt the sun dial untill the shadow created on the ground was a straight line created from the shadow of a ring which hung on the rod pointing to the north star. The change of degree was observed on the inner dial of the sun dial via a bob which was hung from a fixed point in the upper leg of the dial.
                 I wrote a theory (Smiths theory of ancient navigation) in 1979 which explains how the ancients established their new location on the earth using the position of the sun for latitude and the position of the moon to determine their longitude.
                 The ancients recorded their new location on the earth via sun god symbols. To date 33 of these symbols have been plotted on a world map and indicate the ancients (including the ancestors of the Egyptians) came from a common point in the Atlantic Ocean about 5000 years ago.
                 I am not an expert on Egyptian history or any other group of people on earth, however I am a Mechanical engineer and believe theorys are only facts after they reach a six sigma level. With the help from Mike White, Charles Mattox, Pam Giese, Susan, Jim, Charles and many others from the Precolumbian-Incriptions group as well as My local THOR group we plan on releasing this information to the public at the AAAPF Conf. on Ancient America, on Oct. 7,8 and 9th.
                 Much of the early research on this artifact was accomplished by myself and the late Barry Fell. After Mr Fell passed away in 1986 I continued gathering data that now supports the theory at a scientific engineering level.
                 The upcoming conference is this weekend and hopefully the 9 representivies present from the Precolumbian_Inscriptions group and the THOR group can provide a positive results.
                 Thank you and all the other members of the two groups for your support. With 5 TV and 20 radio stations as well as all the local news media planned at the conference I am hoping the groups will get a lot of new information in the future.
              best regards
              William
              reinoud dejonge <Drsrmdejonge@...> wrote:

              Hi, William,

              I don’t understand all aspects of your problem, but I know the importance of the latitude of 26.5°N. This is the holy latitude of the United Egyptian Empire, halfway the Northern Egyptian Empire, at 30°N, and the Southern Egyptian Empire, at 23°N. This last latitude also coincides with the center of the Sunreligion, and with the holy Tropic of Cancer, at 23°N. The center of the United Egyptian Empire was important during all Dynasties of Egypt.

              Reinoud de Jonge




              From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
              Reply-To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
              To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts
              Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 11:23:00 -0700 (PDT)

              Hi Mike
                 I will try to correct the records. I do not live in Flordia or Mansfield. I live in West Chester, Ohio, probably about 40 miles from Spruce Hill. The Ohio Rock was found on my farm in Manchester, Ohio which is about 90 miles from West Chester. Sorry for the confusion.
                 Manchester is not far from Chilicothie. I can not wait untill this conference is over to start adding all the new pieces together and verifying their relation. When all the pieces are in the correct position we will see the complete picture. When this is complete we will need a boat bigger than a canoe to go to the 26.4 latitude and the 65 long. to find what was so interesting to the ancient Americans in the Atlantic ocean. 

              mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
               
                 i bet you could carry me up the hill.  lets hope we find enough sites that we can access together, without this being needed.  2 chinese guys carried me up a few mountains to holy places and temples.  i tipped them well, even though tipping is not expected in china.  humboldt refused to disrespect a man, by riding those termed 'caballeros' in the andes, but then he was in his early twenties, not near 60.  im about 180 lbs, and prefer to walk, if i can take lots of short breaks. 
                 it would be fun and easier if we took a canoe trip down a river in ross co, like paint creek, or another with mounds and sites along them.  several of us talked about this before but we never made a plan when most are available.  even if i relocate, trips to ohio are high on my list of interesting things to do. 
                 william, are you living year round in mansfield ohio now?  i thought your main home was in florida. 
                 no, i havent caught the stuff pam posted yet.  spruce hill is an interesting place.  i should have stopped on the way down, instead of taking a motel in ky so early, but i was afraid that i would lose track of time, and not leave enough days in the carolinas to find a house we like.  there will be other times.  we expect to travel lots after getting our home in order.  another trip to china possibly in the spring to fall, and maybe the andes in 2007, God willing.  i was told living costs for gringos is much higher now in the andes, than i thought from my old books and guides.  i still hope to afford it one day.  i may have to carry a hammock to hang to see all i want to explore. 
                 the few tidbits that i found recently about buried moundbuilder cities, and residential areas in ancient ohio, are exciting news.  its incredible that these reports have basically gone uninvestigated and unexcavated so long, that the experts are unsure of the locations now.  all we know is south of spruce hill, and under chillicothe, some signs of buildings have been uncovered. 
               
              mike
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 2:00 AM
              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

              Hi Mike
                 Yes we caught a lot of fish, however the rock took up a lot of fishing time. I did get Susan a lake trout. Thanks for the information on the large flat rocks. You know I am an engineer and will try to figure how less than 20,000 men could construct them.
                 Did you see the information Pam posted on the THOR site about other items found at Spruce Hill? It could be a mold to fabricate a BOB used with the sun dial and the drum base.
                 I have been reading some of the e-mail and if we can not get a horse or donkey I will carry you up the hill.
              best regards
              William 

              mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
               
              hi william, all
               
                 what no fish story to tell?  i hope all had a fine week on the lake.  your invitation is most gracious william, there will soon be three of us in my family.  at a convenient time in the future we may make a brief visit.  susan has opened her sofa to guests often.  its so good that folks help each other with hospitality.  homer impressed me with the hospitality of the greeks.  then as now, one never knows when we entertain an angel disguised in rags. 
                 we may have a big enough house in western nc soon, to have lots of room for guests.  its one of my favorite places, close to smokey mts np, rafting, waterfalls, 100s of mt trails, or mine for rubies.  if all goes well, we may move in early december, and escape the worst of michigan winter.   
                 these trilithons or dolmen, with the flat stone on top, could have been used to stand a sundial, but they went to lots of unneeded labor, considering the tonnage of the stones erected.  any beach would have sufficed.  we recall, that condamine measured and layed-out his degree of latitude on the equator near quito, not such a flat place.  these new england dolmen and monuments are an anomaly on our shores, and seem to relate to the megalithic builders of europe, more, than to any other structures in america.  logic and intuition, both point to these megaliths having been built by giants.  often these structures seem to have as their primary message, look little men of tomorrow, what we giants could do!   it would certainly be hard and expensive, to gather the necessary 1000s of modern men, and engage them in transporting, lifting, and erecting these stones, for no apparent reason or need.  the earliest modern men that ive read about, threw up tumuli to honor their dead heroes.  it seems entirely wrong to conclude that megaliths were erected by the little 5 footers predicted by darwin for this early period.  some of these stones would require up to 20,000 men, if they each lifted 100 lbs.  this is unlikely.  considering the vast amount of circumstantial evidence for giants long ago, this seems the more reasonable deduction. 
                 its written that some ancients had the ability to raise stones by some unknown force or method.  sacsayhuaman laughs at our puny efforts.  they cut so many angles as a brag to their engineering and other abilities.  they certainly did not raise and lower such masses the dozens of times that we would need to fit those angles so closely, imho.  these two areas in the americas have megalths, but distinctly different from each other.  the andeans may have been more evolved giants, or atlanteans as cayce stated.  i bet both sites truly date deep into the pliocene era.  you got me going again, hehe. 
               
              Kind regards,
              Mike White
              http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 11:59 PM
              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

              Hi Mike, Pam and All
                 Just returned from Canada fishing with my father and in the process of catching up on about 300 e-mails. Sorry to hear of your traffic jams in Ohio Mike. I was hoping to see your results of the drum rock at Spruce Hill. I want to go with you and Pam and all after the upcoming conference. I spent a lot of time during the last week reviewing the presentation we are giving at the conference in front of an audience of 7 fisherman. I dont know if they were impresed or confused but as we departed all took down our e-mail address and two of the seven were leaving to buy a computer.
                 My father made an important statement in that if the ancients were using a sun dial for reading the sun and moon they would need a level flat surface to obtain their readings. He noticed some photos of large flat rocks supported by 3 rocks in most cases from Berry Fells (America BC). These were mostly in the eastern states and would make perfect observation platforms to set the dial upon.
                 Mike when you schedule a trip to Ohio you are more than welcome to lodge at my home.
              William
              ps. Pam
              : I hope you bring your lap top.

              mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
               
              hi pam, all
               
                 thanks for the info on ohio.  i appreciate the warning on hill fort, my operation seems to have been unsuccessful in getting proper circulation in my right leg, so i cannot do long trails or uphills very far.  its been too many years since i toured the earthworks of ohio.  ive read much since then, so now have a new list of sites to explore.  there is so much to see.  in total, i have spent about 3 weeks exploring the mounds, seeing most of the main sites only.  i just scratched the surface.  now i need to spend a week visiting the hill forts.  it would take 2 weeks i bet, just to drive and a brief visit to the numerous effigy mounds.  a roadtrip to ohio's furnaces could easily fill a week.  its a very pleasant place, away from traffic.  lol
                 i would love to see it all from a small plane or balloon, so possibly the entire design of the earliest moundbuilders might be discerned, from the other unplanned additions.  make an effort to see the whole, instead of merely studying the individual sites.  the nps is trying to practice that.  the mounds have pit furnaces, and the stone fort at spruce hill has furnaces or sites of intense heat, so the nps may lump them together.  i think its the right idea to look for wholes, but the stone forts are probably unrelated to the mound builders, making two separate wholes.  the line of stone forts below erie running east - west, are possibly another group, to be considered separate.  it may be easier to understand these separate groups, if we dont mix them up on our explorations.  if not different people, the structures may be far removed from each other in time.  this may not be practical in practice, because some mounds can be near hill forts, or funaces, and the price of gas what it is.  somebody energetic needs to build a database of the different classes of ancient monuments in ohio. 
                 i want to bring up something we need to consider.  most are aware of the earthworks of ohio.  less known are the mounds and tumuli of penn and new york.  some wonderful, and mysterious tombs were found in the 19th c [see corliss].  little has been heard on them recently.  caleb atwater wrote about this area in part.  many tombs of giants are reported in this region.  at least one had a strange inscription.  many bones and relics have vanished, leaving us only the accounts of witnesses, and a few old photos.  cayce just said some mysterious mounds from lemurians were in this area.  in this case, they must be among the earliest on our soil.  i certainly hope to find more information on sites in this district. 
               
               
              Kind regards,
              Mike White
              http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm

               


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            • reinoud dejonge
              Hi Mike, The famous Monument of Barnénez is located at the north coast of Brittany, France, at 49°N. The northeastern part of this cairn contains 5 passage
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 8, 2005
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                Hi Mike,

                The famous Monument of Barn�nez is located at the north coast of Brittany, France, at 49�N. The northeastern part of this cairn contains 5 passage graves, dating from c.4700 BC. It can be proven, that these are built in honor of the attempts to cross the Ocean (or to explore the sea) from the west coasts of Great Britain (England and Ireland) at the 5 latitudes above Barn�nez of 50 to 54�N. (For each degree of latitude a passage grave was built.)

                The southwestern part of this cairn contains 6 passage graves, dating from c.4500 BC (2 centuries later). It can be proven, that these are built in honor of the attempts to cross the Ocean (or to explore the sea) from the west coasts of northern Ireland, Scotland, the Orkneys, and the Shetlands at the 6 latitudes of 55 to 60�N.

                The Megalith Builders did not discover any land. The Isles of St. Kilda, 60NM west of the Outer Hebrides, at 58�N, were already discovered, c.5500 BC. The island of Rockall, 240NM west of Scotland, at 57�N, would be discovered at a much later date, 4100 BC.

                Regards,

                Reinoud

                 


                From: "mike white" <infoplz@...>
                Reply-To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                To: <Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts
                Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 20:59:42 -0400

                 
                hi reinoud, all
                 
                   i knew that latitudes were demonstrated in the charts of ptolemy.  can you point me to a mention of latitudes ca 4700 bce.  it doesnt surprise that they knew, only that we found such an early proof. 
                 
                regards
                mike
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 3:03 PM
                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

                Hi William,

                I like to give a short comment.The knowledge of latitudes is very old, from before c.4700 BC. America was discovered c.2600 BC by Egyptians via the Aleutian Islands, and a century later, c.2500 BC, via the Atlantic. Your Sundial was found at 38 degrees N, which is the latitude of the Azores, and also the complementary latitude of the southern Aleutians, 90-38= 52 degrees N. If this information is relevant, I don�t know. The local degree of latitude was also measured as the shortest angle between the North Star and the ground. The use of longitude is from much later date, after the birth of Christ.

                Regards,

                Reinoud

                 

                From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                Reply-To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts
                Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 14:18:45 -0700 (PDT)

                Reinooud
                   For some reason Mike thought I lived in Flordia and I was just making sure he was advised I live in West Chester, Ohio.
                  I was not aware that the holy latitude of the Egyptians was 26.5 N. A rock mould which was used to fabricate a hammerfused coper sun dial was found on my farm in 1977 which is on the 38 lat. N. I do not live on the farm but at West Chester on the 39 lat. N.
                   When the ancients carved the rock to fabricate a coper sun dials they only new the latitude they were familiar with which is 26.4 lat. N.
                   To determine their new location or latitude they would observe the position of the sun on the day of the equanox and tilt the sun dial untill the shadow created on the ground was a straight line created from the shadow of a ring which hung on the rod pointing to the north star. The change of degree was observed on the inner dial of the sun dial via a bob which was hung from a fixed point in the upper leg of the dial.
                   I wrote a theory (Smiths theory of ancient navigation) in 1979 which explains how the ancients established their new location on the earth using the position of the sun for latitude and the position of the moon to determine their longitude.
                   The ancients recorded their new location on the earth via sun god symbols. To date 33 of these symbols have been plotted on a world map and indicate the ancients (including the ancestors of the Egyptians) came from a common point in the Atlantic Ocean about 5000 years ago.
                   I am not an expert on Egyptian history or any other group of people on earth, however I am a Mechanical engineer and believe theorys are only facts after they reach a six sigma level. With the help from Mike White, Charles Mattox, Pam Giese, Susan, Jim, Charles and many others from the Precolumbian-Incriptions group as well as My local THOR group we plan on releasing this information to the public at the AAAPF Conf. on Ancient America, on Oct. 7,8 and 9th.
                   Much of the early research on this artifact was accomplished by myself and the late Barry Fell. After Mr Fell passed away in 1986 I continued gathering data that now supports the theory at a scientific engineering level.
                   The upcoming conference is this weekend and hopefully the 9 representivies present from the Precolumbian_Inscriptions group and the THOR group can provide a positive results.
                   Thank you and all the other members of the two groups for your support. With 5 TV and 20 radio stations as well as all the local news media planned at the conference I am hoping the groups will get a lot of new information in the future.
                best regards
                William
                reinoud dejonge <Drsrmdejonge@...> wrote:

                Hi, William,

                I don�t understand all aspects of your problem, but I know the importance of the latitude of 26.5�N. This is the holy latitude of the United Egyptian Empire, halfway the Northern Egyptian Empire, at 30�N, and the Southern Egyptian Empire, at 23�N. This last latitude also coincides with the center of the Sunreligion, and with the holy Tropic of Cancer, at 23�N. The center of the United Egyptian Empire was important during all Dynasties of Egypt.

                Reinoud de Jonge




                From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                Reply-To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts
                Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 11:23:00 -0700 (PDT)

                Hi Mike
                   I will try to correct the records. I do not live in Flordia or Mansfield. I live in West Chester, Ohio, probably about 40 miles from Spruce Hill. The Ohio Rock was found on my farm in Manchester, Ohio which is about 90 miles from West Chester. Sorry for the confusion.
                   Manchester is not far from Chilicothie. I can not wait untill this conference is over to start adding all the new pieces together and verifying their relation. When all the pieces are in the correct position we will see the complete picture. When this is complete we will need a boat bigger than a canoe to go to the 26.4 latitude and the 65 long. to find what was so interesting to the ancient Americans in the Atlantic ocean. 

                mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
                 
                   i bet you could carry me up the hill.  lets hope we find enough sites that we can access together, without this being needed.  2 chinese guys carried me up a few mountains to holy places and temples.  i tipped them well, even though tipping is not expected in china.  humboldt refused to disrespect a man, by riding those termed 'caballeros' in the andes, but then he was in his early twenties, not near 60.  im about 180 lbs, and prefer to walk, if i can take lots of short breaks. 
                   it would be fun and easier if we took a canoe trip down a river in ross co, like paint creek, or another with mounds and sites along them.  several of us talked about this before but we never made a plan when most are available.  even if i relocate, trips to ohio are high on my list of interesting things to do. 
                   william, are you living year round in mansfield ohio now?  i thought your main home was in florida. 
                   no, i havent caught the stuff pam posted yet.  spruce hill is an interesting place.  i should have stopped on the way down, instead of taking a motel in ky so early, but i was afraid that i would lose track of time, and not leave enough days in the carolinas to find a house we like.  there will be other times.  we expect to travel lots after getting our home in order.  another trip to china possibly in the spring to fall, and maybe the andes in 2007, God willing.  i was told living costs for gringos is much higher now in the andes, than i thought from my old books and guides.  i still hope to afford it one day.  i may have to carry a hammock to hang to see all i want to explore. 
                   the few tidbits that i found recently about buried moundbuilder cities, and residential areas in ancient ohio, are exciting news.  its incredible that these reports have basically gone uninvestigated and unexcavated so long, that the experts are unsure of the locations now.  all we know is south of spruce hill, and under chillicothe, some signs of buildings have been uncovered. 
                 
                mike
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 2:00 AM
                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

                Hi Mike
                   Yes we caught a lot of fish, however the rock took up a lot of fishing time. I did get Susan a lake trout. Thanks for the information on the large flat rocks. You know I am an engineer and will try to figure how less than 20,000 men could construct them.
                   Did you see the information Pam posted on the THOR site about other items found at Spruce Hill? It could be a mold to fabricate a BOB used with the sun dial and the drum base.
                   I have been reading some of the e-mail and if we can not get a horse or donkey I will carry you up the hill.
                best regards
                William 

                mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
                 
                hi william, all
                 
                   what no fish story to tell?  i hope all had a fine week on the lake.  your invitation is most gracious william, there will soon be three of us in my family.  at a convenient time in the future we may make a brief visit.  susan has opened her sofa to guests often.  its so good that folks help each other with hospitality.  homer impressed me with the hospitality of the greeks.  then as now, one never knows when we entertain an angel disguised in rags. 
                   we may have a big enough house in western nc soon, to have lots of room for guests.  its one of my favorite places, close to smokey mts np, rafting, waterfalls, 100s of mt trails, or mine for rubies.  if all goes well, we may move in early december, and escape the worst of michigan winter.   
                   these trilithons or dolmen, with the flat stone on top, could have been used to stand a sundial, but they went to lots of unneeded labor, considering the tonnage of the stones erected.  any beach would have sufficed.  we recall, that condamine measured and layed-out his degree of latitude on the equator near quito, not such a flat place.  these new england dolmen and monuments are an anomaly on our shores, and seem to relate to the megalithic builders of europe, more, than to any other structures in america.  logic and intuition, both point to these megaliths having been built by giants.  often these structures seem to have as their primary message, look little men of tomorrow, what we giants could do!   it would certainly be hard and expensive, to gather the necessary 1000s of modern men, and engage them in transporting, lifting, and erecting these stones, for no apparent reason or need.  the earliest modern men that ive read about, threw up tumuli to honor their dead heroes.  it seems entirely wrong to conclude that megaliths were erected by the little 5 footers predicted by darwin for this early period.  some of these stones would require up to 20,000 men, if they each lifted 100 lbs.  this is unlikely.  considering the vast amount of circumstantial evidence for giants long ago, this seems the more reasonable deduction. 
                   its written that some ancients had the ability to raise stones by some unknown force or method.  sacsayhuaman laughs at our puny efforts.  they cut so many angles as a brag to their engineering and other abilities.  they certainly did not raise and lower such masses the dozens of times that we would need to fit those angles so closely, imho.  these two areas in the americas have megalths, but distinctly different from each other.  the andeans may have been more evolved giants, or atlanteans as cayce stated.  i bet both sites truly date deep into the pliocene era.  you got me going again, hehe. 
                 
                Kind regards,
                Mike White
                http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 11:59 PM
                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ohio hill forts

                Hi Mike, Pam and All
                   Just returned from Canada fishing with my father and in the process of catching up on about 300 e-mails. Sorry to hear of your traffic jams in Ohio Mike. I was hoping to see your results of the drum rock at Spruce Hill. I want to go with you and Pam and all after the upcoming conference. I spent a lot of time during the last week reviewing the presentation we are giving at the conference in front of an audience of 7 fisherman. I dont know if they were impresed or confused but as we departed all took down our e-mail address and two of the seven were leaving to buy a computer.
                   My father made an important statement in that if the ancients were using a sun dial for reading the sun and moon they would need a level flat surface to obtain their readings. He noticed some photos of large flat rocks supported by 3 rocks in most cases from Berry Fells (America BC). These were mostly in the eastern states and would make perfect observation platforms to set the dial upon.
                   Mike when you schedule a trip to Ohio you are more than welcome to lodge at my home.
                William
                ps. Pam
                : I hope you bring your lap top.

                mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
                 
                hi pam, all
                 
                   thanks for the info on ohio.  i appreciate the warning on hill fort, my operation seems to have been unsuccessful in getting proper circulation in my right leg, so i cannot do long trails or uphills very far.  its been too many years since i toured the earthworks of ohio.  ive read much since then, so now have a new list of sites to explore.  there is so much to see.  in total, i have spent about 3 weeks exploring the mounds, seeing most of the main sites only.  i just scratched the surface.  now i need to spend a week visiting the hill forts.  it would take 2 weeks i bet, just to drive and a brief visit to the numerous effigy mounds.  a roadtrip to ohio's furnaces could easily fill a week.  its a very pleasant place, away from traffic.  lol
                   i would love to see it all from a small plane or balloon, so possibly the entire design of the earliest moundbuilders might be discerned, from the other unplanned additions.  make an effort to see the whole, instead of merely studying the individual sites.  the nps is trying to practice that.  the mounds have pit furnaces, and the stone fort at spruce hill has furnaces or sites of intense heat, so the nps may lump them together.  i think its the right idea to look for wholes, but the stone forts are probably unrelated to the mound builders, making two separate wholes.  the line of stone forts below erie running east - west, are possibly another group, to be considered separate.  it may be easier to understand these separate groups, if we dont mix them up on our explorations.  if not different people, the structures may be far removed from each other in time.  this may not be practical in practice, because some mounds can be near hill forts, or funaces, and the price of gas what it is.  somebody energetic needs to build a database of the different classes of ancient monuments in ohio. 
                   i want to bring up something we need to consider.  most are aware of the earthworks of ohio.  less known are the mounds and tumuli of penn and new york.  some wonderful, and mysterious tombs were found in the 19th c [see corliss].  little has been heard on them recently.  caleb atwater wrote about this area in part.  many tombs of giants are reported in this region.  at least one had a strange inscription.  many bones and relics have vanished, leaving us only the accounts of witnesses, and a few old photos.  cayce just said some mysterious mounds from lemurians were in this area.  in this case, they must be among the earliest on our soil.  i certainly hope to find more information on sites in this district. 
                 
                 
                Kind regards,
                Mike White
                http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm

                 


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