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  • mike white
    im rereading childress on south america. its entertaining, and to a degree informing. it generated my interest in traveling there many years ago. we must
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 14, 2005
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         im rereading childress on south america.  its entertaining, and to a degree informing.  it generated my interest in traveling there many years ago.  we must remember that he was 25 when he made this trip.  its possible that he has changed his opinion since then, i know that i have. 
         he reminds us that there are two ica museums.  one has skulls and mummies, including several elongated skulls.  in a nearby village is the other of dr cabrera, that is seen by appointment. 
        childress bought the story, then current, about a local farmer making and selling these stones to cabrera.  at that time i also accepted that this was the explanation, and that most were fakes.  since then i have read a fuller account of the 'confession', and discount it. 
         cabrera and rulsrud made discoveries greater than carter who found tut's tomb, but never in life received any recognition, only jeers and smiles. 
         plz keep an open mind on whether these objects are authentic relics, until they are properly studied, and the area has been excavated.  cabera did some digging, and found strata undisturbed, containing both human and dinosaur fossils.  this should have been enough to encourage an expedition to check it out.  the pros are put-off by artifacts in a private collection.  they prefer to see the relics themselves in undisturbed strata, so that they can see how objects relate to one another in context.  what is stopping them?  i agree it was counter-productive for dr cabrera to suggest 10 million years for their age, even though he may be proven correct.  it didnt help his cause to speak of buried crystal pyramids guiding and powering aircraft into nazca. 
         at this point, i just hope to establish if one of the stones featuring dinosaurs is authentic.  it will take much time and research later to try to pinpoint the date they were made, and if they were imaginative artworks by ancient people, or if they truly walked with the dinosaurs they depicted.  finding fossil human bones with those of dinosaurs will go far to indicate the truth of the latter assumption.  let the chips fall where they may.  if history books need rewritten its less embarassing to do it now, than allow the next generation to do it at our expense.  which ever archaeologist pursues this will be famous forever.  schliemann was ridiculed initially, but became famous when his ideas had results.  its understandable that reputable archaeologists distance themselves from endorsing such wild claims, that fly in the face of much that has been taught as facts.  however, it behooves them as scientists to investigate these claims with an open mind.  reserve their judgment until after they have fully examined it.  personally, im disgusted by their treatment of the alleged artifacts of ica and acambaro.  it shakes my confidence in our institutions. 
         they sit in their armchairs and devise hypothesis, then go on an expedition to prove it.  by definition this is not a scientific approach, and it leads to suppression of facts that do not jive with their preconceived notions.   let the facts uncovered determine the conclusions. 
       
       
      Kind regards,
      Mike White
      http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
       
       
    • mike white
      i noted in one of the links the mention that some of the ica stones show kangaroos. its been a long time since there could have been kangaroos in peru. so
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 15, 2005
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           i noted in one of the links the mention that some of the ica stones show kangaroos.  its been a long time since there could have been kangaroos in peru.  so little work and so few digs in the area, that our scientists may not have found bones or fossils in peru.  this species is not adapted for mountains.  if its former presence is confirmed, it will strengthen the words of the mystics, that this coast was once part of lemuria, along with australia.   this portrayal given in childress' book looks much like modern kangaroos.  we cannot be sure of their relative size in the former age, which seems to be prior to 10,000 bce, at the least.  if the bones or fossils are found near ica it validates the painted stones, since nobody expected kangaroos to be found there. 
         
         
        Kind regards,
        Mike White
        http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
         
         
      • mike white
        Giant Short Faced Kangaroo vs Kangaroo Lived: 1,600,000-40,000 years ago (Pleistocene) Size: Height: 2-3 metres tall Description: The Short-faced Kangaroo in
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 15, 2005
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          "
          Giant Short Faced Kangaroo vs Kangaroo
          Lived: 1,600,000–40,000 years ago (Pleistocene) Size: Height: 2–3 metres tall Description: The Short-faced Kangaroo in double the size of the Red Kangaroo, instead of paws it had grappling hooks and feet each with a single hoof-liked claw. The Giant Short-faced Kangaroo had a flat face and forward-pointing eyes. On each foot it had a single large toe similar to a horse's hoof. On these unusual feet it moved quickly through the open forests and plains, where it sought grass and leaves to eat. The closest living relative of the Giant Short-faced Kangaroo is probably the Banded Hare-wallaby (Lagostrophus fasciatus). Fossils: Fossils of the Giant Short-faced Kangaroo have been found at the Naracoorte World Heritage fossil deposits in South Australia, Lake Menindee in New South Wales, Darling Downs in Queensland, and at many other sites. ... This paper is the property of FindFreeEssays.com Copyright © 2002-2005
          "
           
             can we determine by these pictures if this species is the giant short-faced kangaroo?  2-3m with unusual feet.  this quest may be worthy of more time and research.   
             bob and pat, we look to you for insight. 
           
          mike
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:02 AM
          Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ica

           
             i noted in one of the links the mention that some of the ica stones show kangaroos.  its been a long time since there could have been kangaroos in peru.  so little work and so few digs in the area, that our scientists may not have found bones or fossils in peru.  this species is not adapted for mountains.  if its former presence is confirmed, it will strengthen the words of the mystics, that this coast was once part of lemuria, along with australia.   this portrayal given in childress' book looks much like modern kangaroos.  we cannot be sure of their relative size in the former age, which seems to be prior to 10,000 bce, at the least.  if the bones or fossils are found near ica it validates the painted stones, since nobody expected kangaroos to be found there. 
           
           
          Kind regards,
          Mike White
          http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
           
           
        • mobydoc
          ... From: mike white To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ica Giant
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 16, 2005
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            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 4:29 PM
            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ica

             
            "
            Giant Short Faced Kangaroo vs Kangaroo
            Lived: 1,600,000–40,000 years ago (Pleistocene) Size: Height: 2–3 metres tall Description: The Short-faced Kangaroo in double the size of the Red Kangaroo, instead of paws it had grappling hooks and feet each with a single hoof-liked claw. The Giant Short-faced Kangaroo had a flat face and forward-pointing eyes. On each foot it had a single large toe similar to a horse's hoof. On these unusual feet it moved quickly through the open forests and plains, where it sought grass and leaves to eat. The closest living relative of the Giant Short-faced Kangaroo is probably the Banded Hare-wallaby (Lagostrophus fasciatus). Fossils: Fossils of the Giant Short-faced Kangaroo have been found at the Naracoorte World Heritage fossil deposits in South Australia, Lake Menindee in New South Wales, Darling Downs in Queensland, and at many other sites. ... This paper is the property of FindFreeEssays.com Copyright © 2002-2005
            "
             
               can we determine by these pictures if this species is the giant short-faced kangaroo?  2-3m with unusual feet.  this quest may be worthy of more time and research.   
               bob and pat, we look to you for insight. 
             
            mike
            -------------------------------------------------------
             Hy Guys ;
                What you say Mike has yet to be disproved ...
              one mark for the good guys...like recent
             Polynesian rat findings ...which was found ..
              according academics ...throughout the Pacific...
             here are the facts ...they were Voles ...not rats ...
              rats came with the Europeans ...Ratus-ratus ...
             and its mate Ratus-norwegecus... (WHY) rats climb
             Voles are ground dwellers (they don't climb) thats why the natives had food storage little PA's on top of
             poles ...the food was safe from up there ...the came the  stinking- house people Whalers (Pa-keha) and their rats white ...mottle ...climbed and ate everything
              Some natives said they had Welsh ancestry ...only to find out later that there were horny Whallers in
             their mud huts thingys according to custom ^0^
            ----------------------------------------
              Has anyone figured out the type of ink ...that was used on those ICA stones illustrations mmmmm
             
                   Pat /Moby
             
            --------------------------------------------------------
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:02 AM
            Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ica

             
               i noted in one of the links the mention that some of the ica stones show kangaroos.  its been a long time since there could have been kangaroos in peru.  so little work and so few digs in the area, that our scientists may not have found bones or fossils in peru.  this species is not adapted for mountains.  if its former presence is confirmed, it will strengthen the words of the mystics, that this coast was once part of lemuria, along with australia.   this portrayal given in childress' book looks much like modern kangaroos.  we cannot be sure of their relative size in the former age, which seems to be prior to 10,000 bce, at the least.  if the bones or fossils are found near ica it validates the painted stones, since nobody expected kangaroos to be found there. 
             
             
            Kind regards,
            Mike White
            http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
             
             
          • mike white
            ive heard the pictures were pecked and incised into the stone. its possible that the stones had a patina before the paintings were added, and the images were
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 16, 2005
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                 ive heard the pictures were pecked and incised into the stone.  its possible that the stones had a patina before the paintings were added, and the images were cut into this patina. 
                 consider what creatures were depicted to find the approximate age of the artwork.  i dont recall seeing pictured the species current in south america circa 10,000 bce, like the sabre-tooth cats, the camelids, and mammoths.  i keep seeing species no later than 40,000 bce, imho.  i would like other takes on that issue.  some scholar needs to identify and catalog each stone, assigning an id number, so all know which is being discussed.  we need a cd with all of the images photographed.  this is needed also at acambaro.  it would be an important and rewarding task.  if the relics are numbered and pro photographed, the species can be identified and added later.  then place it all on cd to get paid back for the many hours of efforts required. 
                 the image i sent, bottom photo, shows a man with what i think is a magnifying glass.  this seems to instruct us to look closely for details, such as plant species and significance.  dr cabrera's conclusion of organ transplant doctor using umbilical cells suggests the importance of looking close to details. 
                 im inclined now, based on what i have seen, to conclude that these painted stones were made between 2 million bce and 40,000 bce.  i know this still sounds incredible, but im being as accurate as i can, based on both current findings, and what the mystics have told us.  
               
              mike 
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: mobydoc
              Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 3:20 AM
              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ica

               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 4:29 PM
              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ica

               
              "
              Giant Short Faced Kangaroo vs Kangaroo
              Lived: 1,600,000–40,000 years ago (Pleistocene) Size: Height: 2–3 metres tall Description: The Short-faced Kangaroo in double the size of the Red Kangaroo, instead of paws it had grappling hooks and feet each with a single hoof-liked claw. The Giant Short-faced Kangaroo had a flat face and forward-pointing eyes. On each foot it had a single large toe similar to a horse's hoof. On these unusual feet it moved quickly through the open forests and plains, where it sought grass and leaves to eat. The closest living relative of the Giant Short-faced Kangaroo is probably the Banded Hare-wallaby (Lagostrophus fasciatus). Fossils: Fossils of the Giant Short-faced Kangaroo have been found at the Naracoorte World Heritage fossil deposits in South Australia, Lake Menindee in New South Wales, Darling Downs in Queensland, and at many other sites. ... This paper is the property of FindFreeEssays.com Copyright © 2002-2005
              "
               
                 can we determine by these pictures if this species is the giant short-faced kangaroo?  2-3m with unusual feet.  this quest may be worthy of more time and research.   
                 bob and pat, we look to you for insight. 
               
              mike
              -------------------------------------------------------
               Hy Guys ;
                  What you say Mike has yet to be disproved ...
                one mark for the good guys...like recent
               Polynesian rat findings ...which was found ..
                according academics ...throughout the Pacific...
               here are the facts ...they were Voles ...not rats ...
                rats came with the Europeans ...Ratus-ratus ...
               and its mate Ratus-norwegecus... (WHY) rats climb
               Voles are ground dwellers (they don't climb) thats why the natives had food storage little PA's on top of
               poles ...the food was safe from up there ...the came the  stinking- house people Whalers (Pa-keha) and their rats white ...mottle ...climbed and ate everything
                Some natives said they had Welsh ancestry ...only to find out later that there were horny Whallers in
               their mud huts thingys according to custom ^0^
              ----------------------------------------
                Has anyone figured out the type of ink ...that was used on those ICA stones illustrations mmmmm
               
                     Pat /Moby
               
              --------------------------------------------------------
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:02 AM
              Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ica

               
                 i noted in one of the links the mention that some of the ica stones show kangaroos.  its been a long time since there could have been kangaroos in peru.  so little work and so few digs in the area, that our scientists may not have found bones or fossils in peru.  this species is not adapted for mountains.  if its former presence is confirmed, it will strengthen the words of the mystics, that this coast was once part of lemuria, along with australia.   this portrayal given in childress' book looks much like modern kangaroos.  we cannot be sure of their relative size in the former age, which seems to be prior to 10,000 bce, at the least.  if the bones or fossils are found near ica it validates the painted stones, since nobody expected kangaroos to be found there. 
               
               
              Kind regards,
              Mike White
              http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
               
               
            • Joan Butcher
              Sorry,mate.This one has no knowledge of our prehistoric fauna.It can not even pick a wiining race horse with any degree of consistancy! Bob ...
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 16, 2005
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                Sorry,mate.This one has no knowledge of our
                prehistoric fauna.It can not even pick a wiining race
                horse with any degree of consistancy!
                Bob
                --- mobydoc <patcobb@...> wrote:

                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: mike white
                > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 4:29 PM
                > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ica
                >
                >
                >
                > " Giant Short Faced Kangaroo vs Kangaroo
                > Lived: 1,600,000-40,000 years ago
                > (Pleistocene) Size: Height: 2-3 metres tall
                > Description: The Short-faced Kangaroo in double the
                > size of the Red Kangaroo, instead of paws it had
                > grappling hooks and feet each with a single
                > hoof-liked claw. The Giant Short-faced Kangaroo had
                > a flat face and forward-pointing eyes. On each foot
                > it had a single large toe similar to a horse's hoof.
                > On these unusual feet it moved quickly through the
                > open forests and plains, where it sought grass and
                > leaves to eat. The closest living relative of the
                > Giant Short-faced Kangaroo is probably the Banded
                > Hare-wallaby (Lagostrophus fasciatus). Fossils:
                > Fossils of the Giant Short-faced Kangaroo have been
                > found at the Naracoorte World Heritage fossil
                > deposits in South Australia, Lake Menindee in New
                > South Wales, Darling Downs in Queensland, and at
                > many other sites. ... This paper is the property of
                > FindFreeEssays.com Copyright © 2002-2005
                >
                > "
                >
                > can we determine by these pictures if this
                > species is the giant short-faced kangaroo? 2-3m
                > with unusual feet. this quest may be worthy of more
                > time and research.
                > bob and pat, we look to you for insight.
                >
                > mike
                >
                >
                -------------------------------------------------------
                > Hy Guys ;
                > What you say Mike has yet to be disproved ...
                > one mark for the good guys...like recent
                > Polynesian rat findings ...which was found ..
                > according academics ...throughout the Pacific...
                > here are the facts ...they were Voles ...not rats
                > ...
                > rats came with the Europeans ...Ratus-ratus ...
                > and its mate Ratus-norwegecus... (WHY) rats climb
                > Voles are ground dwellers (they don't climb)
                > thats why the natives had food storage little PA's
                > on top of
                > poles ...the food was safe from up there ...the
                > came the stinking- house people Whalers (Pa-keha)
                > and their rats white ...mottle ...climbed and ate
                > everything
                > Some natives said they had Welsh ancestry
                > ...only to find out later that there were horny
                > Whallers in
                > their mud huts thingys according to custom ^0^
                > ----------------------------------------
                > Has anyone figured out the type of ink ...that
                > was used on those ICA stones illustrations mmmmm
                >
                > Pat /Moby
                >
                >
                >
                --------------------------------------------------------
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: mike white
                > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:02 AM
                > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ica
                >
                >
                >
                > i noted in one of the links the mention that
                > some of the ica stones show kangaroos. its been a
                > long time since there could have been kangaroos in
                > peru. so little work and so few digs in the area,
                > that our scientists may not have found bones or
                > fossils in peru. this species is not adapted for
                > mountains. if its former presence is confirmed, it
                > will strengthen the words of the mystics, that this
                > coast was once part of lemuria, along with
                > australia. this portrayal given in childress' book
                > looks much like modern kangaroos. we cannot be sure
                > of their relative size in the former age, which
                > seems to be prior to 10,000 bce, at the least. if
                > the bones or fossils are found near ica it validates
                > the painted stones, since nobody expected kangaroos
                > to be found there.
                >
                >
                > Kind regards,
                > Mike White
                > http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
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              • mike white
                i got the cd today, where dr swift gives a 46 minute interview on the validity of the ica stones. im disappointed, the disk was a poor quality radio copy i
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 20, 2005
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                     i got the cd today, where dr swift gives a 46 minute interview on the validity of the ica stones.  im disappointed, the disk was a poor quality radio copy i think, much noise, breaks, and it stopped entirely after 10 minutes.  do not buy this cd!  i complained to the seller, and may get a replacement cd.  it is audio only, no photographs, and i dont think it was prepared by dr swift as i had hoped.  buy a book with images instead is my advice. 
                     one fact came out.  the stones had tar spread over them, baked in the sun, and the images were etched into the tar.  it seems a cheap but very effective way to leave a time capsule.  such could last a million years, far beyond any paint we know of today. 
                     they may be from the paracas culture nearby.  46% of the skulls examined from the tombs of paracas had brain surgery that was survived.  this percentage is far higher than would be the case from injuries.  there must have been a mystical reason for this brain surgery. 
                   
                   
                  Kind regards,
                  Mike White
                  http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
                   
                   
                • mike white
                  hi judith, all the china quake diverted our attention, but ica had a great quake last fall, and the ica museum was damaged. they need funds for another
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 25, 2008
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                    hi judith, all
                     
                       the china quake diverted our attention, but ica had a great quake last fall, and the ica museum was damaged.  they need funds for another building, shelves, lighting, etc. 
                       judith, can you contact kathy doore, to coordinate a fundraising effort?  if they could open a paypal account, it would be easier to raise funds.  some would donate directly, plus others would buy dr cabrera's book on the ica stones.  the book has over 200 photos of the ica stones, and seems to be only available from the ica museum, about $40. 
                       now, they list a snail mail address, with no email or price list for the book.  few reply i would imagine.  i would buy the book, but hesitate to make a run to the usps. 
                     
                     
                    mike
                     
                     
                  • jdaintira@aol.com
                    In a message dated 5/25/2008 7:54:59 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, infoplz@verizon.net writes: judith, can you contact kathy doore, to coordinate a
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 25, 2008
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                      In a message dated 5/25/2008 7:54:59 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, infoplz@... writes:
                        judith, can you contact kathy doore, to coordinate a fundraising effort?  if they could open a paypal account, it would be easier to raise funds.  some would donate directly, plus others would buy dr cabrera's book on the ica stones.  the book has over 200 photos of the ica stones, and seems to be only available from the ica museum, about $40. 
                         now, they list a snail mail address, with no email or price list for the book.  few reply i would imagine.  i would buy the book, but hesitate to make a run to the usps. 
                      Hi, Mike,
                       
                      I see that Amazon lists Dr Cabrera's book as currently unavailable.
                       
                      The email address I have for Kathy is old, so I am not certain that it is still valid.
                       
                      What I have is kathy@....
                       
                      She has her own book on Markwasi out, and I assume through her site, so perhaps she might consider offering the one on the Ica Stones as well.
                       
                      If you are asking me if I would co-ordinate this idea, the answer must be no.  I am not well and am already on overload with my own work.
                       
                      Much as I am dismayed by the damage to the museums at Ica (The Archaeological museum has or had some very fragile Nazca skeletons and an incredible weaving that has such a fine thread count it cannot be duplicated, among many wonders, mostly of the Nazca and Paracas cultures.), I am far more concerned for the people there today, especially the children.
                       
                      I spent one magical late Sunday afternoon and evening at the Ica cemetery, which is built above ground much as at New Orleans, in tiers.
                       
                      The families all come to grieve or visit and picnic and bands are playing and small children race up and down ladders, watering and placing flowers.
                       
                      In those few short hours I formed close bonds to at least a half dozen children.
                       
                      My favorite place in Peru, the Huaca China oasis, is right next to Ica, and I have no idea if that was also damaged or if it even still exists.
                       
                      I doubt if the actual Ica stones were damaged as they are rocks and incised and have already made it through many thousands of years, it would be more a situation of some lost in rubble or no longer in good order for exhibiting them.
                       
                      I used to have three replicas, purchased at the Ica airport the times that I flew over Nazca, but those designs are painted on, not incised, and they tend to be the Nazca figures.  So many people liked these that somehow I gave them all away, assuming that I would go back and could get more.
                       
                      Life had other plans.
                       
                      We may never know the answers to these and other mysteries in this lifetime, but the joy is in the hunt, not the destination.
                       
                      As a small child I decided that after death was like a huge library, and all the answers were there and it was possible to spend eternity seeking them out as each answer leads to more questions.  I can hardly wait.
                       
                      ~ Judith Marie




                      Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
                    • mike white
                      last night i spent time using google earth to scan around ica peru. i was surprised it was so far from the coast. from space the ica river looks near dry
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 1, 2008
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                           last night i spent time using google earth to scan around ica peru.  i was surprised it was so far from the coast.  from space the ica river looks near dry before it reaches ica.  i never spotted the cucaje desert area, where the etched stones were uncovered. 
                           its very unfortunate that the museum forbids photographs.  that retards any being able to study them further.  they definitely need to relocate the textiles.  a person cannot remember details well enough to make any progress.  i hate those rules!  it was the same in xian china, they forbid taking pictures of the terracotta warriors, for some silly reason.  i took some anyway.  in fact, if ica doesnt change that rule, i wont donate any money. 
                           that article i translated said there were possibly thousands of wooden artifacts.  some were idols, others were oars, etc.  locals were selling the wooden relics at the airport, and the buyers assumed they were modern repros made for tourists.  it could be that dr cabrera had more relics than were on display.  that was the case at cuenca, only a few got to view the other rooms of stuff.  after the passing of the collector, many objects grow legs. 
                           our museums and institutions should have enough scientific curiosity to arrange for a loan of ica objects to study.  maybe if a member fluent in spanish would contact the cabrera family, a loan of relics could be arranged.  we could pass them around, so each had a few weeks to view and photograph them.  these are objects that the govt of peru views as modern fakes.  if things continue as they are now, it could be centuries before the world realizes the significance of these antiquities. 
                           i now regret that i didnt say yes when russell burrows offered to loan me a few of his collection to study.  at the time, there was much talk of a lots of pictures that were to be posted on the group, that never happened.  i hope all is well with russ, and want to hear from him again.   
                         
                        mike
                         
                         
                      • jdaintira@aol.com
                        In a message dated 6/1/2008 10:29:15 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, infoplz@verizon.net writes: the same in xian china, they forbid taking pictures of the
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 2, 2008
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                          In a message dated 6/1/2008 10:29:15 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, infoplz@... writes:
                          the same in xian china, they forbid taking pictures of the terracotta warriors, for some silly reason
                          Hi, Mike,
                           
                          I understand the frustration, but if everyone who wanted to took flash photos, there could be a great deal of damage. And how does one deserve the right and not others?
                           
                          Textiles are a big deal in Peru, and often are displayed along with other artifacts from the same burial or site.  They often repeat the motifs found in pottery and carvings and have an important role to play in understanding a culture.
                           
                          I consider it very important to preserve as much as we can as well as possible as in the future we will have new techniques, including dating, and it would be a shame if there had been either destruction or unnecessary deterioration because of this.
                           
                          I had so wanted to go into Nefertari's Tomb in the Valley of the Queens when I was in Egypt as I had been following the mural restorations by the Italian specialists under the aegis of the Getty Foundation, including purchasing materials that partially benefited the work.
                           
                          That I was unable to gain admittance does not make me want my money back. I understand that  just the moisture that human beings add to the air through breathing and perspiration can damage the murals and that visitation has to be restricted.
                           
                          I am certain that the reasons re the Terra Cotta Warriors also have some basis in protecting them.
                           
                          Then, also in poorer countries, often the only way to gain funds to keep their collections safe and active comes from the sale of their own slides and cards. And, it is usually possible to buy high quality slides or postcards that the museums have arranged under the best possible conditions for protection.
                           
                          In any case, the better digital cameras can often do a credible job without flash.
                           
                          Somewhere I do have a few photos I did inside the Ica Museum, and the tall wooden carvings there had some textiles associated with them, perhaps attached or right next to them on a wall. (It has been a long time - 11 years - as the last time I was in the area and had the chance I had to make a choice and opted for a full hour at Huaca China to walk the entire site and take several rolls of film there instead.)
                           
                          I was able to manually adjust my camera while inside the Ica Museum and used some slower film to get some good photos of some of the objects, including to my great surprise when it came back, the red haired Paracas Mummy.
                           
                          There are some places where the guards will seize a camera if a flash is used. (See tombs in Egypt's Valley of the Kings. I almost lost my back up camera there even though I had turned off its flash as it went off anyway.)
                           
                          In any case, the Ica Museum I am referring to is not Dr. Cabrera's Museum, and as it is a private Museum he may have had his own restrictions on photography connected to preserving his and now is family's copyright to the images.  I do not know as I have never been inside there.
                           
                          ~Judith Marie




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                        • mike white
                          i can understand your position judith, but i thought you were speaking of the cabrera museum, as i was. i thought it strange that it would have textiles with
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 2, 2008
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                                i can understand your position judith, but i thought you were speaking of the cabrera museum, as i was.  i thought it strange that it would have textiles with the stones.  as you say, they think the flash can damage paintings, and perhaps textiles, but not stones.  the terracotta museum in xian stands high above the pit where the clay warriors are, and they are viewed thru a glass enclosure, so i was unsure why flash was forbidden.  most assumed it was so they could sell more books.  i will be using a digital camera that does well in low light, so maybe no problem without flash. 
                               is that right judith, that you did not view the cabrera stone collection at ica?  i realize its private, but they do take appointments.  i hope to see both exhibits, but im mainly interested in the cabrera collection of stones and wooden relics.  of course, i would want to see the skulls at the main ica museum.  is it true, that the main museum has no ica stones on display?   like saying no mickey mouse at disneyland! 
                               its my hope that such places act not as warehouses, but facilitate viewing, and fully permit the study of the objects.  i would be happy to purchase a book of fine resolution images of the ica stones and wooden relics - but i dont believe it exists.  ive only found dr cabrera's book, available from the family, and it has about 200 images.  thats a small fraction of the 11,000 etched stones, and countless wooden relics.  many of the images from the book shown online are poor resolution, or distant shots of the room or shelves, where few details can be seen.  i guess cabrera means "goatherd", and its amusing to read translations where the doctor is called goatherd. 
                                its really sad for the history of mankind, that little notice and study is given the :
                            - cabrera ica stones
                            - crespi collection
                            - acambaro figurines
                            - burrows' cave relics
                            - davenport relics
                            - michigan tablets 
                               if the objects dont say what they want to hear, they deny, ignore, or suppress them.   try to imagine the level of proofs an object would have to meet, for our lads to change their minds? 
                             
                            mike
                             
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 3:06 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ica

                            In a message dated 6/1/2008 10:29:15 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, infoplz@verizon. net writes:
                            the same in xian china, they forbid taking pictures of the terracotta warriors, for some silly reason
                            Hi, Mike,
                             
                            I understand the frustration, but if everyone who wanted to took flash photos, there could be a great deal of damage. And how does one deserve the right and not others?
                             
                            Textiles are a big deal in Peru, and often are displayed along with other artifacts from the same burial or site.  They often repeat the motifs found in pottery and carvings and have an important role to play in understanding a culture.
                             
                            I consider it very important to preserve as much as we can as well as possible as in the future we will have new techniques, including dating, and it would be a shame if there had been either destruction or unnecessary deterioration because of this.
                             
                            I had so wanted to go into Nefertari's Tomb in the Valley of the Queens when I was in Egypt as I had been following the mural restorations by the Italian specialists under the aegis of the Getty Foundation, including purchasing materials that partially benefited the work.
                             
                            That I was unable to gain admittance does not make me want my money back. I understand that  just the moisture that human beings add to the air through breathing and perspiration can damage the murals and that visitation has to be restricted.
                             
                            I am certain that the reasons re the Terra Cotta Warriors also have some basis in protecting them.
                             
                            Then, also in poorer countries, often the only way to gain funds to keep their collections safe and active comes from the sale of their own slides and cards. And, it is usually possible to buy high quality slides or postcards that the museums have arranged under the best possible conditions for protection.
                             
                            In any case, the better digital cameras can often do a credible job without flash.
                             
                            Somewhere I do have a few photos I did inside the Ica Museum, and the tall wooden carvings there had some textiles associated with them, perhaps attached or right next to them on a wall. (It has been a long time - 11 years - as the last time I was in the area and had the chance I had to make a choice and opted for a full hour at Huaca China to walk the entire site and take several rolls of film there instead.)
                             
                            I was able to manually adjust my camera while inside the Ica Museum and used some slower film to get some good photos of some of the objects, including to my great surprise when it came back, the red haired Paracas Mummy.
                             
                            There are some places where the guards will seize a camera if a flash is used. (See tombs in Egypt's Valley of the Kings. I almost lost my back up camera there even though I had turned off its flash as it went off anyway.)
                             
                            In any case, the Ica Museum I am referring to is not Dr. Cabrera's Museum, and as it is a private Museum he may have had his own restrictions on photography connected to preserving his and now is family's copyright to the images.  I do not know as I have never been inside there.
                             
                            ~Judith Marie




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                          • jdaintira@aol.com
                            Hi, Mike, No, I have never been to the Cabrera Museum. My two trips to Ica have been for a few hours only as part of larger tours and have centered around
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 2, 2008
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                              Hi, Mike,
                               
                              No, I have never been to the Cabrera Museum.
                               
                              My two trips to Ica have been for a few hours only as part of  larger tours and have centered around using the Ica Airport to fly over Nazca and to see the Archaeological Museum. The Cabrera Museum was not on the itinerary, but then, private museums rarely are, I would assume due to admittance fees and specialized rather than general interest.
                               
                              I had had a trip planned several years ago in which I was going to go in several weeks early and spend at least one week on my own at Huaca China/Ica and another at Trujillo (Well, nearby Huanchaco).  This had included at least one full day at the Cabrera Museum.  But, family maters and then an earthquake intervened.
                               
                              I saw no Ica Stones in the Archaeology Museum, and while I do not know why, I would think that as they cannot be dated, they cannot be exhibited with any authority.
                               
                              There is a terrible problem in Peru with grave robbing, and while many wonderful artifacts have been found, once they are no longer in situ, they are of limited  scientific value.
                               
                              I believe, as you do, that the majority of the Ica stone, certainly in Dr Cabrera's collection, are true artifacts and represent a time in the far distant past.  But, there is at present no way to date the rocks and no way to prove it.
                               
                              Had they been found in a site with organic materials that could be dated, that would be a different matter.
                               
                              I would suspect that many of the Peruvian scientists agree with us, and the finds in the Atacama Desert certainly add to that view.
                               
                              A word of caution, the Gold Museum in Lima is quite wonderful but as most of its ancient cultures exhibitions are from things purchased on the black market many years ago, there are all kinds of fakes mixed in, especially among the textiles, and little can be properly dated.
                               
                              So much has also been taken out of the country.
                               
                              There is a great effort at present to create collections that can be authenticated.
                               
                              The Bruning Museum in Lambayeque which houses the Sipan materials is quite wonderful, and Cuzco recently remodeled and updated its museum.
                               
                              One of the disadvantages of doing small group tours as I have has been that I cannot set the itinerary or always see everything I wish and sometimes would like more time in a specific location.  But there are also great advantages, such as having the path smoothed so that all arrangements and problems are taken are of by someone else who has the pull to correct things and most important to me has been access into places not usually open to the average tourist.
                               
                              ~Judith Marie




                              Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
                            • michael white
                              The Chinese earthquake also damaged 45 sites including a 1500 year old temple. http://www.travelupdate.com.pe/detalles.asp?id=4964&gid=13&pg=2&sc=index.asp
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jun 2, 2008
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                                The Chinese earthquake also damaged 45 sites including a 1500 year old temple.
                                Maybe an English translation cab found searching for Travl Update + Peru
                                 
                                Kind regards from Michael White, Clara Bravo & Delicia Andrés.
                                Cahuide 495 (Opposite Huayna Capac 542)
                                Urb. Santa María, Trujillo, Peru.
                                Tel +51 44 299997/243347/949662710/949607119
                                http://www.xanga.com/TrujilloPeru
                                http://communities.msn.com/TrujilloPeru/pictures
                                microbewhite@...


                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: "jdaintira@..." <jdaintira@...>
                                To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 12:35:05 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ica

                                Hi, Mike,
                                 
                                No, I have never been to the Cabrera Museum.
                                 
                                My two trips to Ica have been for a few hours only as part of  larger tours and have centered around using the Ica Airport to fly over Nazca and to see the Archaeological Museum. The Cabrera Museum was not on the itinerary, but then, private museums rarely are, I would assume due to admittance fees and specialized rather than general interest.
                                 
                                I had had a trip planned several years ago in which I was going to go in several weeks early and spend at least one week on my own at Huaca China/Ica and another at Trujillo (Well, nearby Huanchaco).  This had included at least one full day at the Cabrera Museum.  But, family maters and then an earthquake intervened.
                                 
                                I saw no Ica Stones in the Archaeology Museum, and while I do not know why, I would think that as they cannot be dated, they cannot be exhibited with any authority.
                                 
                                There is a terrible problem in Peru with grave robbing, and while many wonderful artifacts have been found, once they are no longer in situ, they are of limited  scientific value.
                                 
                                I believe, as you do, that the majority of the Ica stone, certainly in Dr Cabrera's collection, are true artifacts and represent a time in the far distant past.  But, there is at present no way to date the rocks and no way to prove it.
                                 
                                Had they been found in a site with organic materials that could be dated, that would be a different matter.
                                 
                                I would suspect that many of the Peruvian scientists agree with us, and the finds in the Atacama Desert certainly add to that view.
                                 
                                A word of caution, the Gold Museum in Lima is quite wonderful but as most of its ancient cultures exhibitions are from things purchased on the black market many years ago, there are all kinds of fakes mixed in, especially among the textiles, and little can be properly dated.
                                 
                                So much has also been taken out of the country.
                                 
                                There is a great effort at present to create collections that can be authenticated.
                                 
                                The Bruning Museum in Lambayeque which houses the Sipan materials is quite wonderful, and Cuzco recently remodeled and updated its museum.
                                 
                                One of the disadvantages of doing small group tours as I have has been that I cannot set the itinerary or always see everything I wish and sometimes would like more time in a specific location.  But there are also great advantages, such as having the path smoothed so that all arrangements and problems are taken are of by someone else who has the pull to correct things and most important to me has been access into places not usually open to the average tourist.
                                 
                                ~Judith Marie




                                Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

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