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Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] identity of aztecs and inca

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  • Mobydoc
    Hy Mike ; I think your analyses could be pretty right ; Pat/Moby ... From: mike Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] identity of aztecs and inca forgive the
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 9, 2004
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         Hy Mike ;
           I think your analyses could be pretty right ;
       
                                  Pat/Moby
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: mike
      Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] identity of aztecs and inca

       
         forgive the multiple posts.  its the only way to continue this search for truth, lacking discussion, or other input from the members. 
         another thought occurred to me.  maybe truth contained in its simplicity.  the aztecs were always seeking victims for sacrifice.  if i was a trader i might avoid making a landing in mexico.  any traveler from peru or quito reaching mexico, after seeing their human sacrifices, may have wisely kept all information about his homeland to himself.  the aztecs dont seem to have had knowledge of boats capable of bucking the winds and currents to steer south. 
       
      mike
       
       


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    • E. F. Legner
      Continuing my review of earlier postings I come to the discussion on Aztecs and Incas. It has been my understanding that both of these groups were RECENT
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 21, 2005
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        Continuing my review of earlier postings I come to the discussion on
        Aztecs and Incas. It has been my understanding that both of these
        groups were RECENT arrivals. Aztecs began their culture on some
        islands off the coast of western Mexico, south of Mazatlan. They
        arrived in the Mexico City area around 1,100 AD and assumed their
        greatest control just before the arrival of the Europeans around 1500
        AD. While in power over a greater area of South Mexico they
        proceeded to rewrite history to favor their own image. They
        destroyed many "books" that were in existance when they arrived. The
        Inca arrived at a similar time to western So. America and also gained
        full control around the time the Europeans arrived. They too had a
        campaign to rewrite history, altho' I don't believe they were as
        successful and am unfamiliar with what history was written on down
        there.

        Human sacrifices reached a peak in the Aztec empire, but it did occur
        in earlier civilizations. The Olmec had some of it as well as other
        groups.

        Most of the links referred to in earlier postings are no longer
        functional, as is true of the photos. Thus, it is quite difficult to
        understand the purpose of many of the discussions.

        ====================

        --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
        <sparky@a...> wrote:
        >
        > forgive the multiple posts. its the only way to continue this
        search for truth, lacking discussion, or other input from the
        members.
        > another thought occurred to me. maybe truth contained in its
        simplicity. the aztecs were always seeking victims for sacrifice.
        if i was a trader i might avoid making a landing in mexico. any
        traveler from peru or quito reaching mexico, after seeing their human
        sacrifices, may have wisely kept all information about his homeland
        to himself. the aztecs dont seem to have had knowledge of boats
        capable of bucking the winds and currents to steer south.
        >
        > mike
      • mike white
        its a big unknown as far as the early history of the aztec, maya, and inca. the most error lies with mainstream history. each must come to their own
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 21, 2005
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             its a big unknown as far as the early history of the aztec, maya, and inca.  the most error lies with mainstream history.  each must come to their own conclusions.  i have read the accepted histories, the ancient documents, and the mystical views.  so far my conclusions are the inca arrived 10,000 bce, the inca joined others in yucatan circa the start of th mayan long count, 3107 bce.  people from yucatan migrated north to ohio and arizona.  those that went to arizona returned to mexico as the aztec.  the aztecs are as likely to have come from western amazonia.  they probably arrived in mexico city circa 200 ce.   unless one has read what i have, it is unlikely to be very convincing, i admit.  as you read further in the archives, i expand on many of these things.  mostly just speculation, but offered as something to consider. 
           
           
          mike
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:37 PM
          Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs and inca


          Continuing my review of earlier postings I come to the discussion on
          Aztecs and Incas.  It has been my understanding that both of these
          groups were RECENT arrivals.  Aztecs began their culture on some
          islands off the coast of western Mexico, south of Mazatlan.  They
          arrived in the Mexico City area around 1,100 AD and assumed their
          greatest control just before the arrival of the Europeans around 1500
          AD.  While in power over a greater area of South Mexico they
          proceeded to rewrite history to favor their own image.  They
          destroyed many "books" that were in existance when they arrived.  The
          Inca arrived at a similar time to western So. America and also gained
          full control around the time the Europeans arrived.  They too had a
          campaign to rewrite history, altho' I don't believe they were as
          successful and am unfamiliar with what history was written on down
          there.

          Human sacrifices reached a peak in the Aztec empire, but it did occur
          in earlier civilizations.  The Olmec had some of it as well as other
          groups.

          Most of the links referred to in earlier postings are no longer
          functional, as is true of the photos.  Thus, it is quite difficult to
          understand the purpose of many of the discussions.

          ====================

          --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
          <sparky@a...> wrote:
          >
          >    forgive the multiple posts.  its the only way to continue this
          search for truth, lacking discussion, or other input from the
          members. 
          >    another thought occurred to me.  maybe truth contained in its
          simplicity.  the aztecs were always seeking victims for sacrifice. 
          if i was a trader i might avoid making a landing in mexico.  any
          traveler from peru or quito reaching mexico, after seeing their human
          sacrifices, may have wisely kept all information about his homeland
          to himself.  the aztecs dont seem to have had knowledge of boats
          capable of bucking the winds and currents to steer south. 
          >
          > mike





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        • E. F. Legner
          This is of course completely new to me. The route that the Aztecs took to get to the Mexico City area seems definitely to have been via those islands south of
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 21, 2005
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            This is of course completely new to me. The route that the Aztecs
            took to get to the Mexico City area seems definitely to have been via
            those islands south of Mazatlan. But how they got to the islands is
            not explained. I always thought that they might be of the same
            migration as the Navajo who arrived around the same time to their
            area in the U.S. Southwest.

            If you have literature available to document your discussion below I
            would be most grateful for the references.


            ==============
            --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
            <infoplz@c...> wrote:
            >
            > its a big unknown as far as the early history of the aztec,
            maya, and inca. the most error lies with mainstream history. each
            must come to their own conclusions. i have read the accepted
            histories, the ancient documents, and the mystical views. so far my
            conclusions are the inca arrived 10,000 bce, the inca joined others
            in yucatan circa the start of th mayan long count, 3107 bce. people
            from yucatan migrated north to ohio and arizona. those that went to
            arizona returned to mexico as the aztec. the aztecs are as likely to
            have come from western amazonia. they probably arrived in mexico
            city circa 200 ce. unless one has read what i have, it is unlikely
            to be very convincing, i admit. as you read further in the archives,
            i expand on many of these things. mostly just speculation, but
            offered as something to consider.
            >
            >
            > mike
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: E. F. Legner
            > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:37 PM
            > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs and
            inca
            >
            >
            >
            > Continuing my review of earlier postings I come to the discussion
            on
            > Aztecs and Incas. It has been my understanding that both of
            these
            > groups were RECENT arrivals. Aztecs began their culture on some
            > islands off the coast of western Mexico, south of Mazatlan. They
            > arrived in the Mexico City area around 1,100 AD and assumed their
            > greatest control just before the arrival of the Europeans around
            1500
            > AD. While in power over a greater area of South Mexico they
            > proceeded to rewrite history to favor their own image. They
            > destroyed many "books" that were in existance when they arrived.
            The
            > Inca arrived at a similar time to western So. America and also
            gained
            > full control around the time the Europeans arrived. They too had
            a
            > campaign to rewrite history, altho' I don't believe they were as
            > successful and am unfamiliar with what history was written on
            down
            > there.
            >
            > Human sacrifices reached a peak in the Aztec empire, but it did
            occur
            > in earlier civilizations. The Olmec had some of it as well as
            other
            > groups.
            >
            > Most of the links referred to in earlier postings are no longer
            > functional, as is true of the photos. Thus, it is quite
            difficult to
            > understand the purpose of many of the discussions.
            >
            > ====================
            >
            > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
            > <sparky@a...> wrote:
            > >
            > > forgive the multiple posts. its the only way to continue
            this
            > search for truth, lacking discussion, or other input from the
            > members.
            > > another thought occurred to me. maybe truth contained in
            its
            > simplicity. the aztecs were always seeking victims for
            sacrifice.
            > if i was a trader i might avoid making a landing in mexico. any
            > traveler from peru or quito reaching mexico, after seeing their
            human
            > sacrifices, may have wisely kept all information about his
            homeland
            > to himself. the aztecs dont seem to have had knowledge of boats
            > capable of bucking the winds and currents to steer south.
            > >
            > > mike
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
            > Group Site : http://www.epigraphyusa.com
            > To unsubscribe from this group, although we hope
            > you stay and help us improve. First consider changing to daily
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          • mike white
            all of the traditional aztec legends that i read said that atzlan was in the north, and they came south to mexico city. in their treaty the aztecs produced a
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 21, 2005
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                 all of the traditional aztec legends that i read said that atzlan was in the north, and they came south to mexico city.  in their treaty the aztecs produced a map that has been copied and given in several places online showing the northern location of atzlan in arizona, as i recall.  da landa in his history of the maya i believe quotes an aztec historian saying they arrived about 200 ce, and saw the ruined cities without populations.  harold wilkins reported a ruined city in western amazonia named atzlan.  it seems unlikely that the aztec could have built the city and empire in the short time allotted to them. 
               
              mike
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 5:12 PM
              Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs and inca


              This is of course completely new to me.  The route that the Aztecs
              took to get to the Mexico City area seems definitely to have been via
              those islands south of Mazatlan.  But how they got to the islands is
              not explained.  I always thought that they might be of the same
              migration as the Navajo who arrived around the same time to their
              area in the U.S. Southwest.

              If you have literature available to document your discussion below I
              would be most grateful for the references.


              ==============
              --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
              <infoplz@c...> wrote:
              >
              >    its a big unknown as far as the early history of the aztec,
              maya, and inca.  the most error lies with mainstream history.  each
              must come to their own conclusions.  i have read the accepted
              histories, the ancient documents, and the mystical views.  so far my
              conclusions are the inca arrived 10,000 bce, the inca joined others
              in yucatan circa the start of th mayan long count, 3107 bce.  people
              from yucatan migrated north to ohio and arizona.  those that went to
              arizona returned to mexico as the aztec.  the aztecs are as likely to
              have come from western amazonia.  they probably arrived in mexico
              city circa 200 ce.   unless one has read what i have, it is unlikely
              to be very convincing, i admit.  as you read further in the archives,
              i expand on many of these things.  mostly just speculation, but
              offered as something to consider. 
              >
              >
              > mike
              >
              >
              >   ----- Original Message -----
              >   From: E. F. Legner
              >   To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
              >   Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:37 PM
              >   Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs and
              inca
              >
              >
              >
              >   Continuing my review of earlier postings I come to the discussion
              on
              >   Aztecs and Incas.  It has been my understanding that both of
              these
              >   groups were RECENT arrivals.  Aztecs began their culture on some
              >   islands off the coast of western Mexico, south of Mazatlan.  They
              >   arrived in the Mexico City area around 1,100 AD and assumed their
              >   greatest control just before the arrival of the Europeans around
              1500
              >   AD.  While in power over a greater area of South Mexico they
              >   proceeded to rewrite history to favor their own image.  They
              >   destroyed many "books" that were in existance when they arrived. 
              The
              >   Inca arrived at a similar time to western So. America and also
              gained
              >   full control around the time the Europeans arrived.  They too had
              a
              >   campaign to rewrite history, altho' I don't believe they were as
              >   successful and am unfamiliar with what history was written on
              down
              >   there.
              >
              >   Human sacrifices reached a peak in the Aztec empire, but it did
              occur
              >   in earlier civilizations.  The Olmec had some of it as well as
              other
              >   groups.
              >
              >   Most of the links referred to in earlier postings are no longer
              >   functional, as is true of the photos.  Thus, it is quite
              difficult to
              >   understand the purpose of many of the discussions.
              >
              >   ====================
              >
              >   --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
              >   <sparky@a...> wrote:
              >   >
              >   >    forgive the multiple posts.  its the only way to continue
              this
              >   search for truth, lacking discussion, or other input from the
              >   members. 
              >   >    another thought occurred to me.  maybe truth contained in
              its
              >   simplicity.  the aztecs were always seeking victims for
              sacrifice. 
              >   if i was a trader i might avoid making a landing in mexico.  any
              >   traveler from peru or quito reaching mexico, after seeing their
              human
              >   sacrifices, may have wisely kept all information about his
              homeland
              >   to himself.  the aztecs dont seem to have had knowledge of boats
              >   capable of bucking the winds and currents to steer south. 
              >   >
              >   > mike
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >   Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
              >   Group Site : http://www.epigraphyusa.com
              >   To unsubscribe from this group, although we hope
              >   you stay and help us improve.  First consider changing to daily
              digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
              >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions
              >   if you must leave send an email to:
              >   Precolumbian_Inscriptions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >         
              >         Get unlimited calls to
              >
              >         U.S./Canada
              >       
              >       
              >
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------------------------
              ----------
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              >
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              >      
              >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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            • james m. clark jr.
              copied this from a pdf. not exactly the excepted time line plus this scholar I assume is just as consistant with errors as the next. It is a good guess
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 21, 2005
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                copied this from a pdf. not exactly the excepted time line plus
                this scholar I assume is just as consistant with errors as the
                next. It is a good guess nevertheless.

                Names of Peruvians Lengths of Reign Dates

                Beginning at Babel
                The first 18 are of the
                Pirua Dynasty. The
                relationship of one to
                another is not always
                stated.
                1 Pirua Pacari Manco (Ayar 60 2254-2194
                Uchu), the Cush of the Bible.
                2. Manco Capac I, the Nimrod 30 2194-2164
                of Scripture. He built the
                first city after the flood.
                (Markham, "Hist. of the Incas", p. 51)
                3. Huanacahui Pirua 50 2164-2114
                4. Sinchi Cozque 60 2114-2054
                5. Inti Capac Yupanqui 50 2054-2004
                6. Manco Capac II, is Horus; 20 2004-1984

                note that in Inca records
                he has same name as Nimrod
                does in Inca tradition.

                ILLUSTRATION FROM BURMA

                The date 2004 is a remarkable parallel for the return to power of
                Horus in Mesopotamia in 2006. Clearly the ancestors of the Peruvians
                lived outside Mesopotamia, bordering on the River Tyras. As
                confirmation of the exactness of Peruvian material, compare the
                following figures which have been extracted from the earliest history
                of Burma. Notice the same figure 2004 for Maradzi II. The ancestors
                of the Burmese Arakan people were at that time also living in the
                steppes of Russia.

                Early Kings who Ruled Lengths of Reign Dates
                Over People who now from Burmese Records
                live in Arakan, Burma (Stokvls' "Manuel")

                Marayu, is Cush 62 2254-2192
                Maradzi I, is Nimrod 32 2192-2160

                The name is derived from
                the Hebrew root "marad," to
                rebel. A Maradzu is a
                great rebel.

                Maraonleng 53 2160-2107
                Mararwayleng 48 2107-2059
                Marabheng 55 2059-2004
                Maradzi II, is Horus 33 2004-1971,
                etc.

                Now to continue with the Peruvian Kings.

                Figures below are approximately the points
                of reign since the lengths of reign are in
                some cases lost.

                7. Tupac Capac -- 1950
                8. Tini Capac Yupanqui -- 1900
                9. Titu Capac Yupanqui -- 1875
                10. Inti Capac Pirua Amaru -- 1850
                11. Capac Sayhua Capac 60 1800
                12. Capac Tinia Yupanqui 40 1750
                13. Ayar Tacko 25 1725
                14. Huascar Titu 30 1700
                15. Quispi Titu -- 1675
                16. Titu Yupanqui Patchacutec I -- 1650
                17. Titu Capac 25 1625
                18. Paullu Ticac Pirua 30 1600

                A new line of kings
                commences with Amauta.
                The word signifies a
                Magian, or priest.

                19. Lloque Tesag Amauta, a priest 50 1575
                or Magian

                Is there not a connection here with the Empire of Sargon and his
                sons in Mesopotamia? They had a vast empire, and on more than one
                occasion Sargon voyaged across the seas. (See Pritchard's "Ancient
                Near Eastern Texts".)

                20. Cayo Manco Amauta I -- 1525
                21. Huascar Titu Tupac 33 1500
                22 Manco Capac III Amauta 50 1450
                23 Ticac Pupac 30 1425
                24. Paullu Tutu Capac 19 1400
                25. Cayo Manco Amauta II 30 1375
                26. Marasco Patchacutec 40 1325
                27. Paullu Atauchi Capac -- 1300
                28. Lluqui Yupanqui 14 1275
                29. Lluqui Ticac 8 1265
                30. Capac Yupanqui I 50 1225
                31, Tupac Yupanqui I 18 1200
                32. Manco Auqui Tupac Patchacutee 50 1150
                33. Sinchi Apusqui Huarma
                Huiracocha 40 1120
                34. Auqui Quitu Atauchi 4 1100
                35. Ayay Manco -- 1075
                36. Huiracocha Capac 15 1060
                37. Tchinchi Roca Amauta 20 1040
                38. Tupac Amaru Amauta 25 1020
                39. Capac Raymi Amauta -- 1000

                This ruler instituted certain festivals in his name. He is parallel
                with the time of Odin I of Denmark and of Solomon. He was the
                mainspring behind the development of what archaeologists call the
                Cultist Era. This Era is illustrative of the contact between Old and
                New World during certain significant ages.

                40. IllJa Tupac 3 --
                --
                41. Tupac Amauta 3 990
                42. Huanacauri I 4 --
                --
                43. Toca Corca Apu Capac 45 960
                44. Huampar Xayri Tupac I 32 925
                45. Hinac Huillja Amauta Pachacuti 35 900
                46. Capac Yupanqui II Amauta 35 860
                47. Huampar Xayri Tupac II -- 830
                48. Cayo Manqui Auqui 3 820
                49. Hinac Huillja 30 800
                50. Inti Capac Amauta 30 760
                51. Ayar Manco Capac -- 730
                52. Yahuar Huquiz, gives his 30 710
                name to five intercalary
                days added to calendar to
                adjust spring equinox
                53. Capac Titu Yupanqui 23 680
                54. Tupac Curi I Amauta 39 640
                55. Tupac Curi II 40 600
                56. Huillcanota Amauta 60 540
                57. Tupac Yupanqui II 43 500
                58. Illja Tupac Capac 4 --
                --
                59. Titu Raymi Cozque 31 460
                60. Huqui Nina Auqui 43 430
                61. Manco Capac IV 23 390
                62. Cayo Manco Capac 20 365
                63. Sinchi Ayar Manco 7 360

                A major invasion occurs in his reign from the Southeast. This
                begins the true Florescent Era, as labeled by archaeologists.

                64. Huaman Tacko Amauta 5 355
                65. Titu Yupanqui Pachacuti II -- --
                66. Titu Huaman Quitu -- 325
                67. Cozque Huaman Titu -- --
                68. Cuis Manco 50 275
                69. Huillja Titu 30 240
                70. Xayri Tupac 40 200
                71. Tupac Yupanqui III 25 175
                72. Huayna Tupac I 37 140
                73. Huanacauri II 10 130
                74. Huillja Huaman 60 70
                75. Huaman Capac 40 30
                76. Paullu Raymi 19 10
                77. Manco Capac V Amauta -- 10
                78. Auqui Atau Huillja 35 40
                79. Manco Titu Capac 32 90
                80. Huayna Tupac II 50 140
                81. Tupac Cauri Pachacuti -- 170
                82. Arantial -- 200
                83. Huari Titu Capac -- 225
                84. Huispa Titu Auqui 18 250
                85. Toco Cozque -- 270
                86. Ayar Manco 22 290
                87. Cuntur Roca -- 320
                88. Amaru -- 340

                From here on
                a definite
                sequence of
                dates is
                possible.

                89. Sinchi Roca 41
                365-406
                90. Illja Toca 62 406-468
                91. Lluqui Yupanqui 45 468-513
                92. Roca Titu 25 513-538
                93. Inti Mayta Capac Pachacuti 27 538-565

                This concludes the Pre-Inca Era. Notice that when Montesino's
                account is properly begun at Babel it is in perfect harmony with the
                time element in the next era.

                THE INCA RULERS

                The succeeding chart illustrates the story of the great Inca
                period. It begins in 565. Is it significant that this is the year of
                a major movement of peripheral peoples out of the British Isles in
                the days of Gildas? ("Ency. Brit.", art. "Cave," in eleventh ed.)

                The Incas were of a complexion much lighter than their subjects.
                The comments in the following section may be verified in J. A.
                Mason's "Ancient Civilizations of Peru", p. 110.

                Inca Kings Lengths of Reign Dates
                or Until an Heir According
                Chosen to Sarmiento
                Beginning of Expansionist Period

                1. Manco Capac 100 565-665
                A.D.
                2. Sinchi Roca 19 665-684
                According to Garcilassan's
                account this king begins
                expansion.
                3. Lloqui Yupanqui 111 684-795
                Extended domain to Lake Titicaca.
                4. Mayta Capac 110 795-905
                Increases realm to Tiahuanaco
                and headwaters of coastal
                rivers. He is the first great
                conqueror.
                5. Capac Yupanqui 89 905-994
                Troubles develop toward end
                of his reign.

                The succeeding kings belong to the Urbanist period.

                6. Inca Roca 103 994-1097
                Near total collapse at
                beginning of his reign. He
                subjugates areas only 20
                miles from capital of Cuxco.
                7. Titu Cuisi Hualpa 96 1097-1193
                (Yahuar-huaccac)
                8. Viracocha Inca 101 1193-1294
                Wars with Chanca, Lupaca and
                Colla. His own capital besieged.
                Inca Urcon, dethroned -- --

                The succeeding Incas belong to the Imperialist period.

                9. Inca (Cusi) Yupanqui
                Pachacuti 103 1294-1397
                Begins conquests in the
                vicinity of Cuzco.
                10. Tupac Inca Yupanqui 67 1397-1464
                11 Huayna Capac 60 1464-1524
                12. Huascar Inca 7 1524-1531
                13. Atahuallpa 2 1531-1533
                Tupac Huallpa -- 1533
                14. Manco Inca, crowned by
                Pizarro 11 1533-1544
                Xayri Tupac 17 1544-1561
                Quispe Yupanqui 8 1561-1569
                Tupac Amaru 3 1569-1572

                With this restoration, though partly incomplete, the early history
                of South America comes into its proper place in World History.





                --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                <infoplz@c...> wrote:
                >
                > its a big unknown as far as the early history of the aztec,
                maya, and inca. the most error lies with mainstream history. each
                must come to their own conclusions. i have read the accepted
                histories, the ancient documents, and the mystical views. so far my
                conclusions are the inca arrived 10,000 bce, the inca joined others
                in yucatan circa the start of th mayan long count, 3107 bce. people
                from yucatan migrated north to ohio and arizona. those that went to
                arizona returned to mexico as the aztec. the aztecs are as likely
                to have come from western amazonia. they probably arrived in mexico
                city circa 200 ce. unless one has read what i have, it is unlikely
                to be very convincing, i admit. as you read further in the
                archives, i expand on many of these things. mostly just
                speculation, but offered as something to consider.
                >
                >
                > mike
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: E. F. Legner
                > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:37 PM
                > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs and
                inca
                >
                >
                >
                > Continuing my review of earlier postings I come to the
                discussion on
                > Aztecs and Incas. It has been my understanding that both of
                these
                > groups were RECENT arrivals. Aztecs began their culture on some
                > islands off the coast of western Mexico, south of Mazatlan.
                They
                > arrived in the Mexico City area around 1,100 AD and assumed
                their
                > greatest control just before the arrival of the Europeans around
                1500
                > AD. While in power over a greater area of South Mexico they
                > proceeded to rewrite history to favor their own image. They
                > destroyed many "books" that were in existance when they
                arrived. The
                > Inca arrived at a similar time to western So. America and also
                gained
                > full control around the time the Europeans arrived. They too
                had a
                > campaign to rewrite history, altho' I don't believe they were as
                > successful and am unfamiliar with what history was written on
                down
                > there.
                >
                > Human sacrifices reached a peak in the Aztec empire, but it did
                occur
                > in earlier civilizations. The Olmec had some of it as well as
                other
                > groups.
                >
                > Most of the links referred to in earlier postings are no longer
                > functional, as is true of the photos. Thus, it is quite
                difficult to
                > understand the purpose of many of the discussions.
                >
                > ====================
                >
                > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                > <sparky@a...> wrote:
                > >
                > > forgive the multiple posts. its the only way to continue
                this
                > search for truth, lacking discussion, or other input from the
                > members.
                > > another thought occurred to me. maybe truth contained in
                its
                > simplicity. the aztecs were always seeking victims for
                sacrifice.
                > if i was a trader i might avoid making a landing in mexico. any
                > traveler from peru or quito reaching mexico, after seeing their
                human
                > sacrifices, may have wisely kept all information about his
                homeland
                > to himself. the aztecs dont seem to have had knowledge of boats
                > capable of bucking the winds and currents to steer south.
                > >
                > > mike
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
                > Group Site : http://www.epigraphyusa.com
                > To unsubscribe from this group, although we hope
                > you stay and help us improve. First consider changing to daily
                digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions
                > if you must leave send an email to:
                > Precolumbian_Inscriptions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                >
                > Get unlimited calls to
                >
                > U.S./Canada
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                -----------
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                >
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                >
                > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                of Service.
              • mike white
                hi jamey, all thanks for the great post jamey. i wonder if this was copied from the montesinos king list? it certainly extends the inca presence in the
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 21, 2005
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                  hi jamey, all
                   
                     thanks for the great post jamey.  i wonder if this was copied from the montesinos king list?  it certainly extends the inca presence in the americas much further back than most have thought.  i will study it at length, and may have more to say later. 
                   
                  mike
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:18 PM
                  Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs and inca


                  copied this from a pdf. not exactly the excepted time line plus
                  this scholar I assume is just as consistant with errors as the
                  next. It is a good guess nevertheless.

                  Names of Peruvians Lengths of Reign Dates

                  Beginning at Babel
                  The first 18 are of the
                  Pirua Dynasty. The
                  relationship of one to
                  another is not always
                  stated.
                  1 Pirua Pacari Manco (Ayar 60 2254-2194
                  Uchu), the Cush of the Bible.
                  2. Manco Capac I, the Nimrod 30 2194-2164
                  of Scripture. He built the
                  first city after the flood.
                  (Markham, "Hist. of the Incas", p. 51)
                  3. Huanacahui Pirua 50 2164-2114
                  4. Sinchi Cozque 60 2114-2054
                  5. Inti Capac Yupanqui 50 2054-2004
                  6. Manco Capac II, is Horus; 20 2004-1984

                  note that in Inca records
                  he has same name as Nimrod
                  does in Inca tradition.

                  ILLUSTRATION FROM BURMA

                  The date 2004 is a remarkable parallel for the return to power of
                  Horus in Mesopotamia in 2006. Clearly the ancestors of the Peruvians
                  lived outside Mesopotamia, bordering on the River Tyras. As
                  confirmation of the exactness of Peruvian material, compare the
                  following figures which have been extracted from the earliest history
                  of Burma. Notice the same figure 2004 for Maradzi II. The ancestors
                  of the Burmese Arakan people were at that time also living in the
                  steppes of Russia.

                  Early Kings who Ruled Lengths of Reign Dates
                  Over People who now from Burmese Records
                  live in Arakan, Burma (Stokvls' "Manuel")

                  Marayu, is Cush 62 2254-2192
                  Maradzi I, is Nimrod 32 2192-2160

                  The name is derived from
                  the Hebrew root "marad," to
                  rebel. A Maradzu is a
                  great rebel.

                  Maraonleng 53 2160-2107
                  Mararwayleng 48 2107-2059
                  Marabheng 55 2059-2004
                  Maradzi II, is Horus 33 2004-1971,
                  etc.

                  Now to continue with the Peruvian Kings.

                  Figures below are approximately the points
                  of reign since the lengths of reign are in
                  some cases lost.

                  7. Tupac Capac -- 1950
                  8. Tini Capac Yupanqui -- 1900
                  9. Titu Capac Yupanqui -- 1875
                  10. Inti Capac Pirua Amaru -- 1850
                  11. Capac Sayhua Capac 60 1800
                  12. Capac Tinia Yupanqui 40 1750
                  13. Ayar Tacko 25 1725
                  14. Huascar Titu 30 1700
                  15. Quispi Titu -- 1675
                  16. Titu Yupanqui Patchacutec I -- 1650
                  17. Titu Capac 25 1625
                  18. Paullu Ticac Pirua 30 1600

                  A new line of kings
                  commences with Amauta.
                  The word signifies a
                  Magian, or priest.

                  19. Lloque Tesag Amauta, a priest 50 1575
                  or Magian

                  Is there not a connection here with the Empire of Sargon and his
                  sons in Mesopotamia? They had a vast empire, and on more than one
                  occasion Sargon voyaged across the seas. (See Pritchard's "Ancient
                  Near Eastern Texts".)

                  20. Cayo Manco Amauta I -- 1525
                  21. Huascar Titu Tupac 33 1500
                  22 Manco Capac III Amauta 50 1450
                  23 Ticac Pupac 30 1425
                  24. Paullu Tutu Capac 19 1400
                  25. Cayo Manco Amauta II 30 1375
                  26. Marasco Patchacutec 40 1325
                  27. Paullu Atauchi Capac -- 1300
                  28. Lluqui Yupanqui 14 1275
                  29. Lluqui Ticac 8 1265
                  30. Capac Yupanqui I 50 1225
                  31, Tupac Yupanqui I 18 1200
                  32. Manco Auqui Tupac Patchacutee 50 1150
                  33. Sinchi Apusqui Huarma
                  Huiracocha 40 1120
                  34. Auqui Quitu Atauchi 4 1100
                  35. Ayay Manco -- 1075
                  36. Huiracocha Capac 15 1060
                  37. Tchinchi Roca Amauta 20 1040
                  38. Tupac Amaru Amauta 25 1020
                  39. Capac Raymi Amauta -- 1000

                  This ruler instituted certain festivals in his name. He is parallel
                  with the time of Odin I of Denmark and of Solomon. He was the
                  mainspring behind the development of what archaeologists call the
                  Cultist Era. This Era is illustrative of the contact between Old and
                  New World during certain significant ages.

                  40. IllJa Tupac 3 --
                  --
                  41. Tupac Amauta 3 990
                  42. Huanacauri I 4 --
                  --
                  43. Toca Corca Apu Capac 45 960
                  44. Huampar Xayri Tupac I 32 925
                  45. Hinac Huillja Amauta Pachacuti 35 900
                  46. Capac Yupanqui II Amauta 35 860
                  47. Huampar Xayri Tupac II -- 830
                  48. Cayo Manqui Auqui 3 820
                  49. Hinac Huillja 30 800
                  50. Inti Capac Amauta 30 760
                  51. Ayar Manco Capac -- 730
                  52. Yahuar Huquiz, gives his 30 710
                  name to five intercalary
                  days added to calendar to
                  adjust spring equinox
                  53. Capac Titu Yupanqui 23 680
                  54. Tupac Curi I Amauta 39 640
                  55. Tupac Curi II 40 600
                  56. Huillcanota Amauta 60 540
                  57. Tupac Yupanqui II 43 500
                  58. Illja Tupac Capac 4 --
                  --
                  59. Titu Raymi Cozque 31 460
                  60. Huqui Nina Auqui 43 430
                  61. Manco Capac IV 23 390
                  62. Cayo Manco Capac 20 365
                  63. Sinchi Ayar Manco 7 360

                  A major invasion occurs in his reign from the Southeast. This
                  begins the true Florescent Era, as labeled by archaeologists.

                  64. Huaman Tacko Amauta 5 355
                  65. Titu Yupanqui Pachacuti II -- --
                  66. Titu Huaman Quitu -- 325
                  67. Cozque Huaman Titu -- --
                  68. Cuis Manco 50 275
                  69. Huillja Titu 30 240
                  70. Xayri Tupac 40 200
                  71. Tupac Yupanqui III 25 175
                  72. Huayna Tupac I 37 140
                  73. Huanacauri II 10 130
                  74. Huillja Huaman 60 70
                  75. Huaman Capac 40 30
                  76. Paullu Raymi 19 10
                  77. Manco Capac V Amauta -- 10
                  78. Auqui Atau Huillja 35 40
                  79. Manco Titu Capac 32 90
                  80. Huayna Tupac II 50 140
                  81. Tupac Cauri Pachacuti -- 170
                  82. Arantial -- 200
                  83. Huari Titu Capac -- 225
                  84. Huispa Titu Auqui 18 250
                  85. Toco Cozque -- 270
                  86. Ayar Manco 22 290
                  87. Cuntur Roca -- 320
                  88. Amaru -- 340

                  From here on
                  a definite
                  sequence of
                  dates is
                  possible.

                  89. Sinchi Roca 41
                  365-406
                  90. Illja Toca 62 406-468
                  91. Lluqui Yupanqui 45 468-513
                  92. Roca Titu 25 513-538
                  93. Inti Mayta Capac Pachacuti 27 538-565

                  This concludes the Pre-Inca Era. Notice that when Montesino's
                  account is properly begun at Babel it is in perfect harmony with the
                  time element in the next era.

                  THE INCA RULERS

                  The succeeding chart illustrates the story of the great Inca
                  period. It begins in 565. Is it significant that this is the year of
                  a major movement of peripheral peoples out of the British Isles in
                  the days of Gildas? ("Ency. Brit.", art. "Cave," in eleventh ed.)

                  The Incas were of a complexion much lighter than their subjects.
                  The comments in the following section may be verified in J. A.
                  Mason's "Ancient Civilizations of Peru", p. 110.

                  Inca Kings Lengths of Reign Dates
                  or Until an Heir According
                  Chosen to Sarmiento
                  Beginning of Expansionist Period

                  1. Manco Capac 100 565-665
                  A.D.
                  2. Sinchi Roca 19 665-684
                  According to Garcilassan's
                  account this king begins
                  expansion.
                  3. Lloqui Yupanqui 111 684-795
                  Extended domain to Lake Titicaca.
                  4. Mayta Capac 110 795-905
                  Increases realm to Tiahuanaco
                  and headwaters of coastal
                  rivers. He is the first great
                  conqueror.
                  5. Capac Yupanqui 89 905-994
                  Troubles develop toward end
                  of his reign.

                  The succeeding kings belong to the Urbanist period.

                  6. Inca Roca 103 994-1097
                  Near total collapse at
                  beginning of his reign. He
                  subjugates areas only 20
                  miles from capital of Cuxco.
                  7. Titu Cuisi Hualpa 96 1097-1193
                  (Yahuar-huaccac)
                  8. Viracocha Inca 101 1193-1294
                  Wars with Chanca, Lupaca and
                  Colla. His own capital besieged.
                  Inca Urcon, dethroned -- --

                  The succeeding Incas belong to the Imperialist period.

                  9. Inca (Cusi) Yupanqui
                  Pachacuti 103 1294-1397
                  Begins conquests in the
                  vicinity of Cuzco.
                  10. Tupac Inca Yupanqui 67 1397-1464
                  11 Huayna Capac 60 1464-1524
                  12. Huascar Inca 7 1524-1531
                  13. Atahuallpa 2 1531-1533
                  Tupac Huallpa -- 1533
                  14. Manco Inca, crowned by
                  Pizarro 11 1533-1544
                  Xayri Tupac 17 1544-1561
                  Quispe Yupanqui 8 1561-1569
                  Tupac Amaru 3 1569-1572

                  With this restoration, though partly incomplete, the early history
                  of South America comes into its proper place in World History.





                  --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                  <infoplz@c...> wrote:
                  >
                  >    its a big unknown as far as the early history of the aztec,
                  maya, and inca.  the most error lies with mainstream history.  each
                  must come to their own conclusions.  i have read the accepted
                  histories, the ancient documents, and the mystical views.  so far my
                  conclusions are the inca arrived 10,000 bce, the inca joined others
                  in yucatan circa the start of th mayan long count, 3107 bce.  people
                  from yucatan migrated north to ohio and arizona.  those that went to
                  arizona returned to mexico as the aztec.  the aztecs are as likely
                  to have come from western amazonia.  they probably arrived in mexico
                  city circa 200 ce.   unless one has read what i have, it is unlikely
                  to be very convincing, i admit.  as you read further in the
                  archives, i expand on many of these things.  mostly just
                  speculation, but offered as something to consider. 
                  >
                  >
                  > mike
                  >
                  >
                  >   ----- Original Message -----
                  >   From: E. F. Legner
                  >   To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                  >   Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:37 PM
                  >   Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs and
                  inca
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >   Continuing my review of earlier postings I come to the
                  discussion on
                  >   Aztecs and Incas.  It has been my understanding that both of
                  these
                  >   groups were RECENT arrivals.  Aztecs began their culture on some
                  >   islands off the coast of western Mexico, south of Mazatlan. 
                  They
                  >   arrived in the Mexico City area around 1,100 AD and assumed
                  their
                  >   greatest control just before the arrival of the Europeans around
                  1500
                  >   AD.  While in power over a greater area of South Mexico they
                  >   proceeded to rewrite history to favor their own image.  They
                  >   destroyed many "books" that were in existance when they
                  arrived.  The
                  >   Inca arrived at a similar time to western So. America and also
                  gained
                  >   full control around the time the Europeans arrived.  They too
                  had a
                  >   campaign to rewrite history, altho' I don't believe they were as
                  >   successful and am unfamiliar with what history was written on
                  down
                  >   there.
                  >
                  >   Human sacrifices reached a peak in the Aztec empire, but it did
                  occur
                  >   in earlier civilizations.  The Olmec had some of it as well as
                  other
                  >   groups.
                  >
                  >   Most of the links referred to in earlier postings are no longer
                  >   functional, as is true of the photos.  Thus, it is quite
                  difficult to
                  >   understand the purpose of many of the discussions.
                  >
                  >   ====================
                  >
                  >   --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                  >   <sparky@a...> wrote:
                  >   >
                  >   >    forgive the multiple posts.  its the only way to continue
                  this
                  >   search for truth, lacking discussion, or other input from the
                  >   members. 
                  >   >    another thought occurred to me.  maybe truth contained in
                  its
                  >   simplicity.  the aztecs were always seeking victims for
                  sacrifice. 
                  >   if i was a trader i might avoid making a landing in mexico.  any
                  >   traveler from peru or quito reaching mexico, after seeing their
                  human
                  >   sacrifices, may have wisely kept all information about his
                  homeland
                  >   to himself.  the aztecs dont seem to have had knowledge of boats
                  >   capable of bucking the winds and currents to steer south. 
                  >   >
                  >   > mike
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >   Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
                  >   Group Site : http://www.epigraphyusa.com
                  >   To unsubscribe from this group, although we hope
                  >   you stay and help us improve.  First consider changing to daily
                  digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
                  >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions
                  >   if you must leave send an email to:
                  >   Precolumbian_Inscriptions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  >         
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                  >
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                  Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
                  Group Site : http://www.epigraphyusa.com
                  To unsubscribe from this group, although we hope
                  you stay and help us improve.  First consider changing to daily digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
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                • mike white
                  Narratives of the Rites and Laws of the Yncas trans. and ed. by Clements R. Markham [London, 1873] http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/inca/rly/index.htm the name
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 22, 2005
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                    Narratives of the Rites and Laws of the Yncas

                    trans. and ed. by Clements R. Markham

                    [London, 1873]
                     
                       the name inca approaches yunca, which means coastal dweller in quechua.  as can be seen, i try to read all that is written about a subject, but to ask for definitive proofs is impossible.  in this foggy area of prehistory, one tries to take what is known and make a probable scenario out of it.  there must be reading between the lines.  its hard in retrospect to later document every deductive step that led to current conclusions. 
                       ive posted a link to much online material that has been compiled by me over time.  its a rough draft in constant flux, but if any truly wish to know why i think a certain way, they should read the whole thing, including links to supporting material.  after that, they can be free to disagree, but they know why i reasoned as i do in the matter.  i don't wish to spend too much time rehashing the identity of the magyar-scythians, or the error in dating of the aztec, inca, and maya.  there are new books to read, and i would sooner spend my time advancing my research.  i think we are discussing cutting-edge thought, that necessarily goes beyond what is known.  this can be intellectually stimulating, and if such venturing discovers proofs, we could significantly contribute to rewritting the history books.  oftentimes, it is not in our lifetime, but a book could result from our efforts, that inspires a future expedition, that does find the evidence that we now lack.  at least posterity will know that we did not accept the status quo of recorded history. 
                     
                     
                     
                    Kind regards,
                    Mike White
                    http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
                     
                     
                  • james m. clark jr.
                    No Montesinos list isn t used as far as I know, he isn t even mentioned but neither is Bartholomew de Las Casas. If the list is presented in another perhaps
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 22, 2005
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                      No Montesinos list isn't used as far as I know, he isn't even
                      mentioned but neither is Bartholomew de Las Casas. If the list is
                      presented in another perhaps the book is listed in the index but
                      Montesinos doesn't seem to be a factor to this
                      scholar/philosopher/theologian buddist christian in the early 60's.


                      Forgotten History - Friday, January 21, 2005
                      "Little known facts and overlooked history"


                      Bartholomew de Las Casas
                      http://archives.gophercentral.com/index.php?op=news&id=8173

                      jmcjr



                      --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                      <infoplz@c...> wrote:
                      >
                      > hi jamey, all
                      >
                      > thanks for the great post jamey. i wonder if this was copied
                      from the montesinos king list? it certainly extends the inca
                      presence in the americas much further back than most have thought.
                      i will study it at length, and may have more to say later.
                      >
                      > mike
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: james m. clark jr.
                      > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:18 PM
                      > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs and
                      inca
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > copied this from a pdf. not exactly the excepted time line plus
                      > this scholar I assume is just as consistant with errors as the
                      > next. It is a good guess nevertheless.
                      >
                      > Names of Peruvians Lengths of Reign Dates
                      >
                      > Beginning at Babel
                      > The first 18 are of the
                      > Pirua Dynasty. The
                      > relationship of one to
                      > another is not always
                      > stated.
                      > 1 Pirua Pacari Manco (Ayar 60 2254-2194
                      > Uchu), the Cush of the Bible.
                      > 2. Manco Capac I, the Nimrod 30 2194-2164
                      > of Scripture. He built the
                      > first city after the flood.
                      > (Markham, "Hist. of the Incas", p. 51)
                      > 3. Huanacahui Pirua 50 2164-2114
                      > 4. Sinchi Cozque 60 2114-2054
                      > 5. Inti Capac Yupanqui 50 2054-2004
                      > 6. Manco Capac II, is Horus; 20 2004-1984
                      >
                      > note that in Inca records
                      > he has same name as Nimrod
                      > does in Inca tradition.
                      >
                      > ILLUSTRATION FROM BURMA
                      >
                      > The date 2004 is a remarkable parallel for the return to power of
                      > Horus in Mesopotamia in 2006. Clearly the ancestors of the
                      Peruvians
                      > lived outside Mesopotamia, bordering on the River Tyras. As
                      > confirmation of the exactness of Peruvian material, compare the
                      > following figures which have been extracted from the earliest
                      history
                      > of Burma. Notice the same figure 2004 for Maradzi II. The
                      ancestors
                      > of the Burmese Arakan people were at that time also living in
                      the
                      > steppes of Russia.
                      >
                      > Early Kings who Ruled Lengths of Reign Dates
                      > Over People who now from Burmese Records
                      > live in Arakan, Burma (Stokvls' "Manuel")
                      >
                      > Marayu, is Cush 62 2254-2192
                      > Maradzi I, is Nimrod 32 2192-2160
                      >
                      > The name is derived from
                      > the Hebrew root "marad," to
                      > rebel. A Maradzu is a
                      > great rebel.
                      >
                      > Maraonleng 53 2160-2107
                      > Mararwayleng 48 2107-2059
                      > Marabheng 55 2059-2004
                      > Maradzi II, is Horus 33 2004-1971,
                      > etc.
                      >
                      > Now to continue with the Peruvian Kings.
                      >
                      > Figures below are approximately the points
                      > of reign since the lengths of reign are in
                      > some cases lost.
                      >
                      > 7. Tupac Capac -- 1950
                      > 8. Tini Capac Yupanqui -- 1900
                      > 9. Titu Capac Yupanqui -- 1875
                      > 10. Inti Capac Pirua Amaru -- 1850
                      > 11. Capac Sayhua Capac 60 1800
                      > 12. Capac Tinia Yupanqui 40 1750
                      > 13. Ayar Tacko 25 1725
                      > 14. Huascar Titu 30 1700
                      > 15. Quispi Titu -- 1675
                      > 16. Titu Yupanqui Patchacutec I -- 1650
                      > 17. Titu Capac 25 1625
                      > 18. Paullu Ticac Pirua 30 1600
                      >
                      > A new line of kings
                      > commences with Amauta.
                      > The word signifies a
                      > Magian, or priest.
                      >
                      > 19. Lloque Tesag Amauta, a priest 50 1575
                      > or Magian
                      >
                      > Is there not a connection here with the Empire of Sargon and his
                      > sons in Mesopotamia? They had a vast empire, and on more than one
                      > occasion Sargon voyaged across the seas. (See
                      Pritchard's "Ancient
                      > Near Eastern Texts".)
                      >
                      > 20. Cayo Manco Amauta I -- 1525
                      > 21. Huascar Titu Tupac 33 1500
                      > 22 Manco Capac III Amauta 50 1450
                      > 23 Ticac Pupac 30 1425
                      > 24. Paullu Tutu Capac 19 1400
                      > 25. Cayo Manco Amauta II 30 1375
                      > 26. Marasco Patchacutec 40 1325
                      > 27. Paullu Atauchi Capac -- 1300
                      > 28. Lluqui Yupanqui 14 1275
                      > 29. Lluqui Ticac 8 1265
                      > 30. Capac Yupanqui I 50 1225
                      > 31, Tupac Yupanqui I 18 1200
                      > 32. Manco Auqui Tupac Patchacutee 50 1150
                      > 33. Sinchi Apusqui Huarma
                      > Huiracocha 40 1120
                      > 34. Auqui Quitu Atauchi 4 1100
                      > 35. Ayay Manco -- 1075
                      > 36. Huiracocha Capac 15 1060
                      > 37. Tchinchi Roca Amauta 20 1040
                      > 38. Tupac Amaru Amauta 25 1020
                      > 39. Capac Raymi Amauta -- 1000
                      >
                      > This ruler instituted certain festivals in his name. He is
                      parallel
                      > with the time of Odin I of Denmark and of Solomon. He was the
                      > mainspring behind the development of what archaeologists call the
                      > Cultist Era. This Era is illustrative of the contact between Old
                      and
                      > New World during certain significant ages.
                      >
                      > 40. IllJa Tupac 3 --
                      > --
                      > 41. Tupac Amauta 3 990
                      > 42. Huanacauri I 4 --
                      > --
                      > 43. Toca Corca Apu Capac 45 960
                      > 44. Huampar Xayri Tupac I 32 925
                      > 45. Hinac Huillja Amauta Pachacuti 35 900
                      > 46. Capac Yupanqui II Amauta 35 860
                      > 47. Huampar Xayri Tupac II -- 830
                      > 48. Cayo Manqui Auqui 3 820
                      > 49. Hinac Huillja 30 800
                      > 50. Inti Capac Amauta 30 760
                      > 51. Ayar Manco Capac -- 730
                      > 52. Yahuar Huquiz, gives his 30 710
                      > name to five intercalary
                      > days added to calendar to
                      > adjust spring equinox
                      > 53. Capac Titu Yupanqui 23 680
                      > 54. Tupac Curi I Amauta 39 640
                      > 55. Tupac Curi II 40 600
                      > 56. Huillcanota Amauta 60 540
                      > 57. Tupac Yupanqui II 43 500
                      > 58. Illja Tupac Capac 4 --
                      > --
                      > 59. Titu Raymi Cozque 31 460
                      > 60. Huqui Nina Auqui 43 430
                      > 61. Manco Capac IV 23 390
                      > 62. Cayo Manco Capac 20 365
                      > 63. Sinchi Ayar Manco 7 360
                      >
                      > A major invasion occurs in his reign from the Southeast. This
                      > begins the true Florescent Era, as labeled by archaeologists.
                      >
                      > 64. Huaman Tacko Amauta 5 355
                      > 65. Titu Yupanqui Pachacuti II -- --
                      > 66. Titu Huaman Quitu -- 325
                      > 67. Cozque Huaman Titu -- --
                      > 68. Cuis Manco 50 275
                      > 69. Huillja Titu 30 240
                      > 70. Xayri Tupac 40 200
                      > 71. Tupac Yupanqui III 25 175
                      > 72. Huayna Tupac I 37 140
                      > 73. Huanacauri II 10 130
                      > 74. Huillja Huaman 60 70
                      > 75. Huaman Capac 40 30
                      > 76. Paullu Raymi 19 10
                      > 77. Manco Capac V Amauta -- 10
                      > 78. Auqui Atau Huillja 35 40
                      > 79. Manco Titu Capac 32 90
                      > 80. Huayna Tupac II 50 140
                      > 81. Tupac Cauri Pachacuti -- 170
                      > 82. Arantial -- 200
                      > 83. Huari Titu Capac -- 225
                      > 84. Huispa Titu Auqui 18 250
                      > 85. Toco Cozque -- 270
                      > 86. Ayar Manco 22 290
                      > 87. Cuntur Roca -- 320
                      > 88. Amaru -- 340
                      >
                      > From here on
                      > a definite
                      > sequence of
                      > dates is
                      > possible.
                      >
                      > 89. Sinchi Roca 41
                      > 365-406
                      > 90. Illja Toca 62 406-468
                      > 91. Lluqui Yupanqui 45 468-513
                      > 92. Roca Titu 25 513-538
                      > 93. Inti Mayta Capac Pachacuti 27 538-565
                      >
                      > This concludes the Pre-Inca Era. Notice that when Montesino's
                      > account is properly begun at Babel it is in perfect harmony with
                      the
                      > time element in the next era.
                      >
                      > THE INCA RULERS
                      >
                      > The succeeding chart illustrates the story of the great Inca
                      > period. It begins in 565. Is it significant that this is the
                      year of
                      > a major movement of peripheral peoples out of the British Isles
                      in
                      > the days of Gildas? ("Ency. Brit.", art. "Cave," in eleventh
                      ed.)
                      >
                      > The Incas were of a complexion much lighter than their subjects.
                      > The comments in the following section may be verified in J. A.
                      > Mason's "Ancient Civilizations of Peru", p. 110.
                      >
                      > Inca Kings Lengths of Reign Dates
                      > or Until an Heir According
                      > Chosen to Sarmiento
                      > Beginning of Expansionist Period
                      >
                      > 1. Manco Capac 100 565-665
                      > A.D.
                      > 2. Sinchi Roca 19 665-684
                      > According to Garcilassan's
                      > account this king begins
                      > expansion.
                      > 3. Lloqui Yupanqui 111 684-795
                      > Extended domain to Lake Titicaca.
                      > 4. Mayta Capac 110 795-905
                      > Increases realm to Tiahuanaco
                      > and headwaters of coastal
                      > rivers. He is the first great
                      > conqueror.
                      > 5. Capac Yupanqui 89 905-994
                      > Troubles develop toward end
                      > of his reign.
                      >
                      > The succeeding kings belong to the Urbanist period.
                      >
                      > 6. Inca Roca 103 994-1097
                      > Near total collapse at
                      > beginning of his reign. He
                      > subjugates areas only 20
                      > miles from capital of Cuxco.
                      > 7. Titu Cuisi Hualpa 96 1097-1193
                      > (Yahuar-huaccac)
                      > 8. Viracocha Inca 101 1193-1294
                      > Wars with Chanca, Lupaca and
                      > Colla. His own capital besieged.
                      > Inca Urcon, dethroned -- --
                      >
                      > The succeeding Incas belong to the Imperialist period.
                      >
                      > 9. Inca (Cusi) Yupanqui
                      > Pachacuti 103 1294-1397
                      > Begins conquests in the
                      > vicinity of Cuzco.
                      > 10. Tupac Inca Yupanqui 67 1397-1464
                      > 11 Huayna Capac 60 1464-1524
                      > 12. Huascar Inca 7 1524-1531
                      > 13. Atahuallpa 2 1531-1533
                      > Tupac Huallpa -- 1533
                      > 14. Manco Inca, crowned by
                      > Pizarro 11 1533-1544
                      > Xayri Tupac 17 1544-1561
                      > Quispe Yupanqui 8 1561-1569
                      > Tupac Amaru 3 1569-1572
                      >
                      > With this restoration, though partly incomplete, the early
                      history
                      > of South America comes into its proper place in World History.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                      > <infoplz@c...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > its a big unknown as far as the early history of the aztec,
                      > maya, and inca. the most error lies with mainstream history.
                      each
                      > must come to their own conclusions. i have read the accepted
                      > histories, the ancient documents, and the mystical views. so
                      far my
                      > conclusions are the inca arrived 10,000 bce, the inca joined
                      others
                      > in yucatan circa the start of th mayan long count, 3107 bce.
                      people
                      > from yucatan migrated north to ohio and arizona. those that
                      went to
                      > arizona returned to mexico as the aztec. the aztecs are as
                      likely
                      > to have come from western amazonia. they probably arrived in
                      mexico
                      > city circa 200 ce. unless one has read what i have, it is
                      unlikely
                      > to be very convincing, i admit. as you read further in the
                      > archives, i expand on many of these things. mostly just
                      > speculation, but offered as something to consider.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > mike
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: E. F. Legner
                      > > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:37 PM
                      > > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs
                      and
                      > inca
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Continuing my review of earlier postings I come to the
                      > discussion on
                      > > Aztecs and Incas. It has been my understanding that both of
                      > these
                      > > groups were RECENT arrivals. Aztecs began their culture on
                      some
                      > > islands off the coast of western Mexico, south of Mazatlan.
                      > They
                      > > arrived in the Mexico City area around 1,100 AD and assumed
                      > their
                      > > greatest control just before the arrival of the Europeans
                      around
                      > 1500
                      > > AD. While in power over a greater area of South Mexico they
                      > > proceeded to rewrite history to favor their own image. They
                      > > destroyed many "books" that were in existance when they
                      > arrived. The
                      > > Inca arrived at a similar time to western So. America and
                      also
                      > gained
                      > > full control around the time the Europeans arrived. They
                      too
                      > had a
                      > > campaign to rewrite history, altho' I don't believe they
                      were as
                      > > successful and am unfamiliar with what history was written
                      on
                      > down
                      > > there.
                      > >
                      > > Human sacrifices reached a peak in the Aztec empire, but it
                      did
                      > occur
                      > > in earlier civilizations. The Olmec had some of it as well
                      as
                      > other
                      > > groups.
                      > >
                      > > Most of the links referred to in earlier postings are no
                      longer
                      > > functional, as is true of the photos. Thus, it is quite
                      > difficult to
                      > > understand the purpose of many of the discussions.
                      > >
                      > > ====================
                      > >
                      > > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike
                      white"
                      > > <sparky@a...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > forgive the multiple posts. its the only way to
                      continue
                      > this
                      > > search for truth, lacking discussion, or other input from
                      the
                      > > members.
                      > > > another thought occurred to me. maybe truth contained
                      in
                      > its
                      > > simplicity. the aztecs were always seeking victims for
                      > sacrifice.
                      > > if i was a trader i might avoid making a landing in mexico.
                      any
                      > > traveler from peru or quito reaching mexico, after seeing
                      their
                      > human
                      > > sacrifices, may have wisely kept all information about his
                      > homeland
                      > > to himself. the aztecs dont seem to have had knowledge of
                      boats
                      > > capable of bucking the winds and currents to steer south.
                      > > >
                      > > > mike
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
                      > > Group Site : http://www.epigraphyusa.com
                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, although we hope
                      > > you stay and help us improve. First consider changing to
                      daily
                      > digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions
                      > > if you must leave send an email to:
                      > > Precolumbian_Inscriptions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                      > >
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                      > >
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                      digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions
                      > if you must leave send an email to:
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                    • james m. clark jr.
                      I hope you paid me no mind Mike, all Hoeh s work includes Montesinos list... its mentioned in this message text (#5348)...but as far as a modern ref. text, I d
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 16, 2007
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                        I hope you paid me no mind Mike, all

                        Hoeh's work includes Montesinos list... its mentioned in this
                        message text (#5348)...but as far as a modern ref. text, I'd
                        have no idea which, and I hope it's safe to assume the
                        reason why Montesinos is excluded from ref. book index entirely
                        is because it's not a modern text.

                        I thought I'd do a Magnium PI slide and search for Wari or Huari
                        at PI. Hoeh list one Huari Titu Capac as the 83rd ruler from -- 225.

                        However an article cought my attention in my recent resarch but
                        evadently the names of Historical rulers doesn't seem to be even a
                        factor. So if Huari is really a Spanish name why not Wari Titu Capac
                        then it would be more suitable.

                        Who Was Who in the Huari Empire*
                        Institute of Andean Studies 33rd annual meeting, January 8-9, 1993,
                        UC-Berkeley
                        © Patricia Knobloch, 1993
                        http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~bharley/WWWIAS93Paper.html
                        (image no. 7 looks like a cross between Hell Boy & Moses, definally
                        nothing Spanish there.

                        be well,
                        jamey

                        --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                        <infoplz@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > hi jamey, all
                        >
                        > thanks for the great post jamey. i wonder if this was copied
                        from the montesinos king list? it certainly extends the inca
                        presence in the americas much further back than most have thought. i
                        will study it at length, and may have more to say later.
                        >
                        > mike
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: james m. clark jr.
                        > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:18 PM
                        > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs and
                        inca
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > copied this from a pdf. not exactly the excepted time line plus
                        > this scholar I assume is just as consistant with errors as the
                        > next. It is a good guess nevertheless.
                        >
                        > Names of Peruvians Lengths of Reign Dates
                        >
                        > Beginning at Babel
                        > The first 18 are of the
                        > Pirua Dynasty. The
                        > relationship of one to
                        > another is not always
                        > stated.
                        > 1 Pirua Pacari Manco (Ayar 60 2254-2194
                        > Uchu), the Cush of the Bible.
                        > 2. Manco Capac I, the Nimrod 30 2194-2164
                        > of Scripture. He built the
                        > first city after the flood.
                        > (Markham, "Hist. of the Incas", p. 51)
                        > 3. Huanacahui Pirua 50 2164-2114
                        > 4. Sinchi Cozque 60 2114-2054
                        > 5. Inti Capac Yupanqui 50 2054-2004
                        > 6. Manco Capac II, is Horus; 20 2004-1984
                        >
                        > note that in Inca records
                        > he has same name as Nimrod
                        > does in Inca tradition.
                        >
                        > ILLUSTRATION FROM BURMA
                        >
                        > The date 2004 is a remarkable parallel for the return to power of
                        > Horus in Mesopotamia in 2006. Clearly the ancestors of the
                        Peruvians
                        > lived outside Mesopotamia, bordering on the River Tyras. As
                        > confirmation of the exactness of Peruvian material, compare the
                        > following figures which have been extracted from the earliest
                        history
                        > of Burma. Notice the same figure 2004 for Maradzi II. The
                        ancestors
                        > of the Burmese Arakan people were at that time also living in the
                        > steppes of Russia.
                        >
                        > Early Kings who Ruled Lengths of Reign Dates
                        > Over People who now from Burmese Records
                        > live in Arakan, Burma (Stokvls' "Manuel")
                        >
                        > Marayu, is Cush 62 2254-2192
                        > Maradzi I, is Nimrod 32 2192-2160
                        >
                        > The name is derived from
                        > the Hebrew root "marad," to
                        > rebel. A Maradzu is a
                        > great rebel.
                        >
                        > Maraonleng 53 2160-2107
                        > Mararwayleng 48 2107-2059
                        > Marabheng 55 2059-2004
                        > Maradzi II, is Horus 33 2004-1971,
                        > etc.
                        >
                        > Now to continue with the Peruvian Kings.
                        >
                        > Figures below are approximately the points
                        > of reign since the lengths of reign are in
                        > some cases lost.
                        >
                        > 7. Tupac Capac -- 1950
                        > 8. Tini Capac Yupanqui -- 1900
                        > 9. Titu Capac Yupanqui -- 1875
                        > 10. Inti Capac Pirua Amaru -- 1850
                        > 11. Capac Sayhua Capac 60 1800
                        > 12. Capac Tinia Yupanqui 40 1750
                        > 13. Ayar Tacko 25 1725
                        > 14. Huascar Titu 30 1700
                        > 15. Quispi Titu -- 1675
                        > 16. Titu Yupanqui Patchacutec I -- 1650
                        > 17. Titu Capac 25 1625
                        > 18. Paullu Ticac Pirua 30 1600
                        >
                        > A new line of kings
                        > commences with Amauta.
                        > The word signifies a
                        > Magian, or priest.
                        >
                        > 19. Lloque Tesag Amauta, a priest 50 1575
                        > or Magian
                        >
                        > Is there not a connection here with the Empire of Sargon and his
                        > sons in Mesopotamia? They had a vast empire, and on more than one
                        > occasion Sargon voyaged across the seas. (See
                        Pritchard's "Ancient
                        > Near Eastern Texts".)
                        >
                        > 20. Cayo Manco Amauta I -- 1525
                        > 21. Huascar Titu Tupac 33 1500
                        > 22 Manco Capac III Amauta 50 1450
                        > 23 Ticac Pupac 30 1425
                        > 24. Paullu Tutu Capac 19 1400
                        > 25. Cayo Manco Amauta II 30 1375
                        > 26. Marasco Patchacutec 40 1325
                        > 27. Paullu Atauchi Capac -- 1300
                        > 28. Lluqui Yupanqui 14 1275
                        > 29. Lluqui Ticac 8 1265
                        > 30. Capac Yupanqui I 50 1225
                        > 31, Tupac Yupanqui I 18 1200
                        > 32. Manco Auqui Tupac Patchacutee 50 1150
                        > 33. Sinchi Apusqui Huarma
                        > Huiracocha 40 1120
                        > 34. Auqui Quitu Atauchi 4 1100
                        > 35. Ayay Manco -- 1075
                        > 36. Huiracocha Capac 15 1060
                        > 37. Tchinchi Roca Amauta 20 1040
                        > 38. Tupac Amaru Amauta 25 1020
                        > 39. Capac Raymi Amauta -- 1000
                        >
                        > This ruler instituted certain festivals in his name. He is
                        parallel
                        > with the time of Odin I of Denmark and of Solomon. He was the
                        > mainspring behind the development of what archaeologists call the
                        > Cultist Era. This Era is illustrative of the contact between Old
                        and
                        > New World during certain significant ages.
                        >
                        > 40. IllJa Tupac 3 --
                        > --
                        > 41. Tupac Amauta 3 990
                        > 42. Huanacauri I 4 --
                        > --
                        > 43. Toca Corca Apu Capac 45 960
                        > 44. Huampar Xayri Tupac I 32 925
                        > 45. Hinac Huillja Amauta Pachacuti 35 900
                        > 46. Capac Yupanqui II Amauta 35 860
                        > 47. Huampar Xayri Tupac II -- 830
                        > 48. Cayo Manqui Auqui 3 820
                        > 49. Hinac Huillja 30 800
                        > 50. Inti Capac Amauta 30 760
                        > 51. Ayar Manco Capac -- 730
                        > 52. Yahuar Huquiz, gives his 30 710
                        > name to five intercalary
                        > days added to calendar to
                        > adjust spring equinox
                        > 53. Capac Titu Yupanqui 23 680
                        > 54. Tupac Curi I Amauta 39 640
                        > 55. Tupac Curi II 40 600
                        > 56. Huillcanota Amauta 60 540
                        > 57. Tupac Yupanqui II 43 500
                        > 58. Illja Tupac Capac 4 --
                        > --
                        > 59. Titu Raymi Cozque 31 460
                        > 60. Huqui Nina Auqui 43 430
                        > 61. Manco Capac IV 23 390
                        > 62. Cayo Manco Capac 20 365
                        > 63. Sinchi Ayar Manco 7 360
                        >
                        > A major invasion occurs in his reign from the Southeast. This
                        > begins the true Florescent Era, as labeled by archaeologists.
                        >
                        > 64. Huaman Tacko Amauta 5 355
                        > 65. Titu Yupanqui Pachacuti II -- --
                        > 66. Titu Huaman Quitu -- 325
                        > 67. Cozque Huaman Titu -- --
                        > 68. Cuis Manco 50 275
                        > 69. Huillja Titu 30 240
                        > 70. Xayri Tupac 40 200
                        > 71. Tupac Yupanqui III 25 175
                        > 72. Huayna Tupac I 37 140
                        > 73. Huanacauri II 10 130
                        > 74. Huillja Huaman 60 70
                        > 75. Huaman Capac 40 30
                        > 76. Paullu Raymi 19 10
                        > 77. Manco Capac V Amauta -- 10
                        > 78. Auqui Atau Huillja 35 40
                        > 79. Manco Titu Capac 32 90
                        > 80. Huayna Tupac II 50 140
                        > 81. Tupac Cauri Pachacuti -- 170
                        > 82. Arantial -- 200
                        > 83. Huari Titu Capac -- 225
                        > 84. Huispa Titu Auqui 18 250
                        > 85. Toco Cozque -- 270
                        > 86. Ayar Manco 22 290
                        > 87. Cuntur Roca -- 320
                        > 88. Amaru -- 340
                        >
                        > From here on
                        > a definite
                        > sequence of
                        > dates is
                        > possible.
                        >
                        > 89. Sinchi Roca 41
                        > 365-406
                        > 90. Illja Toca 62 406-468
                        > 91. Lluqui Yupanqui 45 468-513
                        > 92. Roca Titu 25 513-538
                        > 93. Inti Mayta Capac Pachacuti 27 538-565
                        >
                        > This concludes the Pre-Inca Era. Notice that when Montesino's
                        > account is properly begun at Babel it is in perfect harmony with
                        the
                        > time element in the next era.
                        >
                        > THE INCA RULERS
                        >
                        > The succeeding chart illustrates the story of the great Inca
                        > period. It begins in 565. Is it significant that this is the year
                        of
                        > a major movement of peripheral peoples out of the British Isles
                        in
                        > the days of Gildas? ("Ency. Brit.", art. "Cave," in eleventh ed.)
                        >
                        > The Incas were of a complexion much lighter than their subjects.
                        > The comments in the following section may be verified in J. A.
                        > Mason's "Ancient Civilizations of Peru", p. 110.
                        >
                        > Inca Kings Lengths of Reign Dates
                        > or Until an Heir According
                        > Chosen to Sarmiento
                        > Beginning of Expansionist Period
                        >
                        > 1. Manco Capac 100 565-665
                        > A.D.
                        > 2. Sinchi Roca 19 665-684
                        > According to Garcilassan's
                        > account this king begins
                        > expansion.
                        > 3. Lloqui Yupanqui 111 684-795
                        > Extended domain to Lake Titicaca.
                        > 4. Mayta Capac 110 795-905
                        > Increases realm to Tiahuanaco
                        > and headwaters of coastal
                        > rivers. He is the first great
                        > conqueror.
                        > 5. Capac Yupanqui 89 905-994
                        > Troubles develop toward end
                        > of his reign.
                        >
                        > The succeeding kings belong to the Urbanist period.
                        >
                        > 6. Inca Roca 103 994-1097
                        > Near total collapse at
                        > beginning of his reign. He
                        > subjugates areas only 20
                        > miles from capital of Cuxco.
                        > 7. Titu Cuisi Hualpa 96 1097-1193
                        > (Yahuar-huaccac)
                        > 8. Viracocha Inca 101 1193-1294
                        > Wars with Chanca, Lupaca and
                        > Colla. His own capital besieged.
                        > Inca Urcon, dethroned -- --
                        >
                        > The succeeding Incas belong to the Imperialist period.
                        >
                        > 9. Inca (Cusi) Yupanqui
                        > Pachacuti 103 1294-1397
                        > Begins conquests in the
                        > vicinity of Cuzco.
                        > 10. Tupac Inca Yupanqui 67 1397-1464
                        > 11 Huayna Capac 60 1464-1524
                        > 12. Huascar Inca 7 1524-1531
                        > 13. Atahuallpa 2 1531-1533
                        > Tupac Huallpa -- 1533
                        > 14. Manco Inca, crowned by
                        > Pizarro 11 1533-1544
                        > Xayri Tupac 17 1544-1561
                        > Quispe Yupanqui 8 1561-1569
                        > Tupac Amaru 3 1569-1572
                        >
                        > With this restoration, though partly incomplete, the early history
                        > of South America comes into its proper place in World History.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                        > <infoplz@c...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > its a big unknown as far as the early history of the aztec,
                        > maya, and inca. the most error lies with mainstream history.
                        each
                        > must come to their own conclusions. i have read the accepted
                        > histories, the ancient documents, and the mystical views. so far
                        my
                        > conclusions are the inca arrived 10,000 bce, the inca joined
                        others
                        > in yucatan circa the start of th mayan long count, 3107 bce.
                        people
                        > from yucatan migrated north to ohio and arizona. those that went
                        to
                        > arizona returned to mexico as the aztec. the aztecs are as
                        likely
                        > to have come from western amazonia. they probably arrived in
                        mexico
                        > city circa 200 ce. unless one has read what i have, it is
                        unlikely
                        > to be very convincing, i admit. as you read further in the
                        > archives, i expand on many of these things. mostly just
                        > speculation, but offered as something to consider.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > mike
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: E. F. Legner
                        > > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:37 PM
                        > > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs
                        and
                        > inca
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Continuing my review of earlier postings I come to the
                        > discussion on
                        > > Aztecs and Incas. It has been my understanding that both of
                        > these
                        > > groups were RECENT arrivals. Aztecs began their culture on
                        some
                        > > islands off the coast of western Mexico, south of Mazatlan.
                        > They
                        > > arrived in the Mexico City area around 1,100 AD and assumed
                        > their
                        > > greatest control just before the arrival of the Europeans
                        around
                        > 1500
                        > > AD. While in power over a greater area of South Mexico they
                        > > proceeded to rewrite history to favor their own image. They
                        > > destroyed many "books" that were in existance when they
                        > arrived. The
                        > > Inca arrived at a similar time to western So. America and
                        also
                        > gained
                        > > full control around the time the Europeans arrived. They too
                        > had a
                        > > campaign to rewrite history, altho' I don't believe they were
                        as
                        > > successful and am unfamiliar with what history was written on
                        > down
                        > > there.
                        > >
                        > > Human sacrifices reached a peak in the Aztec empire, but it
                        did
                        > occur
                        > > in earlier civilizations. The Olmec had some of it as well
                        as
                        > other
                        > > groups.
                        > >
                        > > Most of the links referred to in earlier postings are no
                        longer
                        > > functional, as is true of the photos. Thus, it is quite
                        > difficult to
                        > > understand the purpose of many of the discussions.
                        > >
                        > > ====================
                        > >
                        > > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike
                        white"
                        > > <sparky@a...> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > forgive the multiple posts. its the only way to
                        continue
                        > this
                        > > search for truth, lacking discussion, or other input from the
                        > > members.
                        > > > another thought occurred to me. maybe truth contained
                        in
                        > its
                        > > simplicity. the aztecs were always seeking victims for
                        > sacrifice.
                        > > if i was a trader i might avoid making a landing in mexico.
                        any
                        > > traveler from peru or quito reaching mexico, after seeing
                        their
                        > human
                        > > sacrifices, may have wisely kept all information about his
                        > homeland
                        > > to himself. the aztecs dont seem to have had knowledge of
                        boats
                        > > capable of bucking the winds and currents to steer south.
                        > > >
                        > > > mike
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
                        > > Group Site : http://www.epigraphyusa.com
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                        > digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
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                      • mike white
                        hi jamey, all all is well here. i had forgotten that a post contained montesinos king list. it is about impossible to find anywhere else. scholars have a
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 17, 2007
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                          hi jamey, all
                           
                             all is well here.  i had forgotten that a post contained montesinos' king list.  it is about impossible to find anywhere else.  scholars have a habit of suppressing primary sources that are not also found in other works, thereby losing the only record.  maybe i should prepare a copy of montesinos' king list in our file section, so we can have a ready reference next time. 
                           
                          mike 
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 2:44 PM
                          Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs and inca (in search of Wari)

                          I hope you paid me no mind Mike, all

                          Hoeh's work includes Montesinos list... its mentioned in this
                          message text (#5348)...but as far as a modern ref. text, I'd
                          have no idea which, and I hope it's safe to assume the
                          reason why Montesinos is excluded from ref. book index entirely
                          is because it's not a modern text.

                          I thought I'd do a Magnium PI slide and search for Wari or Huari
                          at PI. Hoeh list one Huari Titu Capac as the 83rd ruler from -- 225.

                          However an article cought my attention in my recent resarch but
                          evadently the names of Historical rulers doesn't seem to be even a
                          factor. So if Huari is really a Spanish name why not Wari Titu Capac
                          then it would be more suitable.

                          Who Was Who in the Huari Empire*
                          Institute of Andean Studies 33rd annual meeting, January 8-9, 1993,
                          UC-Berkeley
                          © Patricia Knobloch, 1993
                          http://www-rohan. sdsu.edu/ ~bharley/ WWWIAS93Paper. html
                          (image no. 7 looks like a cross between Hell Boy & Moses, definally
                          nothing Spanish there.

                          be well,
                          jamey

                          --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                          <infoplz@... > wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > hi jamey, all
                          >
                          > thanks for the great post jamey. i wonder if this was copied
                          from the montesinos king list? it certainly extends the inca
                          presence in the americas much further back than most have thought. i
                          will study it at length, and may have more to say later.
                          >
                          > mike
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: james m. clark jr.
                          > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                          > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:18 PM
                          > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs and
                          inca
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > copied this from a pdf. not exactly the excepted time line plus
                          > this scholar I assume is just as consistant with errors as the
                          > next. It is a good guess nevertheless.
                          >
                          > Names of Peruvians Lengths of Reign Dates
                          >
                          > Beginning at Babel
                          > The first 18 are of the
                          > Pirua Dynasty. The
                          > relationship of one to
                          > another is not always
                          > stated.
                          > 1 Pirua Pacari Manco (Ayar 60 2254-2194
                          > Uchu), the Cush of the Bible.
                          > 2. Manco Capac I, the Nimrod 30 2194-2164
                          > of Scripture. He built the
                          > first city after the flood.
                          > (Markham, "Hist. of the Incas", p. 51)
                          > 3. Huanacahui Pirua 50 2164-2114
                          > 4. Sinchi Cozque 60 2114-2054
                          > 5. Inti Capac Yupanqui 50 2054-2004
                          > 6. Manco Capac II, is Horus; 20 2004-1984
                          >
                          > note that in Inca records
                          > he has same name as Nimrod
                          > does in Inca tradition.
                          >
                          > ILLUSTRATION FROM BURMA
                          >
                          > The date 2004 is a remarkable parallel for the return to power of
                          > Horus in Mesopotamia in 2006. Clearly the ancestors of the
                          Peruvians
                          > lived outside Mesopotamia, bordering on the River Tyras. As
                          > confirmation of the exactness of Peruvian material, compare the
                          > following figures which have been extracted from the earliest
                          history
                          > of Burma. Notice the same figure 2004 for Maradzi II. The
                          ancestors
                          > of the Burmese Arakan people were at that time also living in the
                          > steppes of Russia.
                          >
                          > Early Kings who Ruled Lengths of Reign Dates
                          > Over People who now from Burmese Records
                          > live in Arakan, Burma (Stokvls' "Manuel")
                          >
                          > Marayu, is Cush 62 2254-2192
                          > Maradzi I, is Nimrod 32 2192-2160
                          >
                          > The name is derived from
                          > the Hebrew root "marad," to
                          > rebel. A Maradzu is a
                          > great rebel.
                          >
                          > Maraonleng 53 2160-2107
                          > Mararwayleng 48 2107-2059
                          > Marabheng 55 2059-2004
                          > Maradzi II, is Horus 33 2004-1971,
                          > etc.
                          >
                          > Now to continue with the Peruvian Kings.
                          >
                          > Figures below are approximately the points
                          > of reign since the lengths of reign are in
                          > some cases lost.
                          >
                          > 7. Tupac Capac -- 1950
                          > 8. Tini Capac Yupanqui -- 1900
                          > 9. Titu Capac Yupanqui -- 1875
                          > 10. Inti Capac Pirua Amaru -- 1850
                          > 11. Capac Sayhua Capac 60 1800
                          > 12. Capac Tinia Yupanqui 40 1750
                          > 13. Ayar Tacko 25 1725
                          > 14. Huascar Titu 30 1700
                          > 15. Quispi Titu -- 1675
                          > 16. Titu Yupanqui Patchacutec I -- 1650
                          > 17. Titu Capac 25 1625
                          > 18. Paullu Ticac Pirua 30 1600
                          >
                          > A new line of kings
                          > commences with Amauta.
                          > The word signifies a
                          > Magian, or priest.
                          >
                          > 19. Lloque Tesag Amauta, a priest 50 1575
                          > or Magian
                          >
                          > Is there not a connection here with the Empire of Sargon and his
                          > sons in Mesopotamia? They had a vast empire, and on more than one
                          > occasion Sargon voyaged across the seas. (See
                          Pritchard's "Ancient
                          > Near Eastern Texts".)
                          >
                          > 20. Cayo Manco Amauta I -- 1525
                          > 21. Huascar Titu Tupac 33 1500
                          > 22 Manco Capac III Amauta 50 1450
                          > 23 Ticac Pupac 30 1425
                          > 24. Paullu Tutu Capac 19 1400
                          > 25. Cayo Manco Amauta II 30 1375
                          > 26. Marasco Patchacutec 40 1325
                          > 27. Paullu Atauchi Capac -- 1300
                          > 28. Lluqui Yupanqui 14 1275
                          > 29. Lluqui Ticac 8 1265
                          > 30. Capac Yupanqui I 50 1225
                          > 31, Tupac Yupanqui I 18 1200
                          > 32. Manco Auqui Tupac Patchacutee 50 1150
                          > 33. Sinchi Apusqui Huarma
                          > Huiracocha 40 1120
                          > 34. Auqui Quitu Atauchi 4 1100
                          > 35. Ayay Manco -- 1075
                          > 36. Huiracocha Capac 15 1060
                          > 37. Tchinchi Roca Amauta 20 1040
                          > 38. Tupac Amaru Amauta 25 1020
                          > 39. Capac Raymi Amauta -- 1000
                          >
                          > This ruler instituted certain festivals in his name. He is
                          parallel
                          > with the time of Odin I of Denmark and of Solomon. He was the
                          > mainspring behind the development of what archaeologists call the
                          > Cultist Era. This Era is illustrative of the contact between Old
                          and
                          > New World during certain significant ages.
                          >
                          > 40. IllJa Tupac 3 --
                          > --
                          > 41. Tupac Amauta 3 990
                          > 42. Huanacauri I 4 --
                          > --
                          > 43. Toca Corca Apu Capac 45 960
                          > 44. Huampar Xayri Tupac I 32 925
                          > 45. Hinac Huillja Amauta Pachacuti 35 900
                          > 46. Capac Yupanqui II Amauta 35 860
                          > 47. Huampar Xayri Tupac II -- 830
                          > 48. Cayo Manqui Auqui 3 820
                          > 49. Hinac Huillja 30 800
                          > 50. Inti Capac Amauta 30 760
                          > 51. Ayar Manco Capac -- 730
                          > 52. Yahuar Huquiz, gives his 30 710
                          > name to five intercalary
                          > days added to calendar to
                          > adjust spring equinox
                          > 53. Capac Titu Yupanqui 23 680
                          > 54. Tupac Curi I Amauta 39 640
                          > 55. Tupac Curi II 40 600
                          > 56. Huillcanota Amauta 60 540
                          > 57. Tupac Yupanqui II 43 500
                          > 58. Illja Tupac Capac 4 --
                          > --
                          > 59. Titu Raymi Cozque 31 460
                          > 60. Huqui Nina Auqui 43 430
                          > 61. Manco Capac IV 23 390
                          > 62. Cayo Manco Capac 20 365
                          > 63. Sinchi Ayar Manco 7 360
                          >
                          > A major invasion occurs in his reign from the Southeast. This
                          > begins the true Florescent Era, as labeled by archaeologists.
                          >
                          > 64. Huaman Tacko Amauta 5 355
                          > 65. Titu Yupanqui Pachacuti II -- --
                          > 66. Titu Huaman Quitu -- 325
                          > 67. Cozque Huaman Titu -- --
                          > 68. Cuis Manco 50 275
                          > 69. Huillja Titu 30 240
                          > 70. Xayri Tupac 40 200
                          > 71. Tupac Yupanqui III 25 175
                          > 72. Huayna Tupac I 37 140
                          > 73. Huanacauri II 10 130
                          > 74. Huillja Huaman 60 70
                          > 75. Huaman Capac 40 30
                          > 76. Paullu Raymi 19 10
                          > 77. Manco Capac V Amauta -- 10
                          > 78. Auqui Atau Huillja 35 40
                          > 79. Manco Titu Capac 32 90
                          > 80. Huayna Tupac II 50 140
                          > 81. Tupac Cauri Pachacuti -- 170
                          > 82. Arantial -- 200
                          > 83. Huari Titu Capac -- 225
                          > 84. Huispa Titu Auqui 18 250
                          > 85. Toco Cozque -- 270
                          > 86. Ayar Manco 22 290
                          > 87. Cuntur Roca -- 320
                          > 88. Amaru -- 340
                          >
                          > From here on
                          > a definite
                          > sequence of
                          > dates is
                          > possible.
                          >
                          > 89. Sinchi Roca 41
                          > 365-406
                          > 90. Illja Toca 62 406-468
                          > 91. Lluqui Yupanqui 45 468-513
                          > 92. Roca Titu 25 513-538
                          > 93. Inti Mayta Capac Pachacuti 27 538-565
                          >
                          > This concludes the Pre-Inca Era. Notice that when Montesino's
                          > account is properly begun at Babel it is in perfect harmony with
                          the
                          > time element in the next era.
                          >
                          > THE INCA RULERS
                          >
                          > The succeeding chart illustrates the story of the great Inca
                          > period. It begins in 565. Is it significant that this is the year
                          of
                          > a major movement of peripheral peoples out of the British Isles
                          in
                          > the days of Gildas? ("Ency. Brit.", art. "Cave," in eleventh ed.)
                          >
                          > The Incas were of a complexion much lighter than their subjects.
                          > The comments in the following section may be verified in J. A.
                          > Mason's "Ancient Civilizations of Peru", p. 110.
                          >
                          > Inca Kings Lengths of Reign Dates
                          > or Until an Heir According
                          > Chosen to Sarmiento
                          > Beginning of Expansionist Period
                          >
                          > 1. Manco Capac 100 565-665
                          > A.D.
                          > 2. Sinchi Roca 19 665-684
                          > According to Garcilassan' s
                          > account this king begins
                          > expansion.
                          > 3. Lloqui Yupanqui 111 684-795
                          > Extended domain to Lake Titicaca.
                          > 4. Mayta Capac 110 795-905
                          > Increases realm to Tiahuanaco
                          > and headwaters of coastal
                          > rivers. He is the first great
                          > conqueror.
                          > 5. Capac Yupanqui 89 905-994
                          > Troubles develop toward end
                          > of his reign.
                          >
                          > The succeeding kings belong to the Urbanist period.
                          >
                          > 6. Inca Roca 103 994-1097
                          > Near total collapse at
                          > beginning of his reign. He
                          > subjugates areas only 20
                          > miles from capital of Cuxco.
                          > 7. Titu Cuisi Hualpa 96 1097-1193
                          > (Yahuar-huaccac)
                          > 8. Viracocha Inca 101 1193-1294
                          > Wars with Chanca, Lupaca and
                          > Colla. His own capital besieged.
                          > Inca Urcon, dethroned -- --
                          >
                          > The succeeding Incas belong to the Imperialist period.
                          >
                          > 9. Inca (Cusi) Yupanqui
                          > Pachacuti 103 1294-1397
                          > Begins conquests in the
                          > vicinity of Cuzco.
                          > 10. Tupac Inca Yupanqui 67 1397-1464
                          > 11 Huayna Capac 60 1464-1524
                          > 12. Huascar Inca 7 1524-1531
                          > 13. Atahuallpa 2 1531-1533
                          > Tupac Huallpa -- 1533
                          > 14. Manco Inca, crowned by
                          > Pizarro 11 1533-1544
                          > Xayri Tupac 17 1544-1561
                          > Quispe Yupanqui 8 1561-1569
                          > Tupac Amaru 3 1569-1572
                          >
                          > With this restoration, though partly incomplete, the early history
                          > of South America comes into its proper place in World History.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                          > <infoplz@c.. .> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > its a big unknown as far as the early history of the aztec,
                          > maya, and inca. the most error lies with mainstream history.
                          each
                          > must come to their own conclusions. i have read the accepted
                          > histories, the ancient documents, and the mystical views. so far
                          my
                          > conclusions are the inca arrived 10,000 bce, the inca joined
                          others
                          > in yucatan circa the start of th mayan long count, 3107 bce.
                          people
                          > from yucatan migrated north to ohio and arizona. those that went
                          to
                          > arizona returned to mexico as the aztec. the aztecs are as
                          likely
                          > to have come from western amazonia. they probably arrived in
                          mexico
                          > city circa 200 ce. unless one has read what i have, it is
                          unlikely
                          > to be very convincing, i admit. as you read further in the
                          > archives, i expand on many of these things. mostly just
                          > speculation, but offered as something to consider.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > mike
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: E. F. Legner
                          > > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                          > > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:37 PM
                          > > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs
                          and
                          > inca
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Continuing my review of earlier postings I come to the
                          > discussion on
                          > > Aztecs and Incas. It has been my understanding that both of
                          > these
                          > > groups were RECENT arrivals. Aztecs began their culture on
                          some
                          > > islands off the coast of western Mexico, south of Mazatlan.
                          > They
                          > > arrived in the Mexico City area around 1,100 AD and assumed
                          > their
                          > > greatest control just before the arrival of the Europeans
                          around
                          > 1500
                          > > AD. While in power over a greater area of South Mexico they
                          > > proceeded to rewrite history to favor their own image. They
                          > > destroyed many "books" that were in existance when they
                          > arrived. The
                          > > Inca arrived at a similar time to western So. America and
                          also
                          > gained
                          > > full control around the time the Europeans arrived. They too
                          > had a
                          > > campaign to rewrite history, altho' I don't believe they were
                          as
                          > > successful and am unfamiliar with what history was written on
                          > down
                          > > there.
                          > >
                          > > Human sacrifices reached a peak in the Aztec empire, but it
                          did
                          > occur
                          > > in earlier civilizations. The Olmec had some of it as well
                          as
                          > other
                          > > groups.
                          > >
                          > > Most of the links referred to in earlier postings are no
                          longer
                          > > functional, as is true of the photos. Thus, it is quite
                          > difficult to
                          > > understand the purpose of many of the discussions.
                          > >
                          > > ============ ========
                          > >
                          > > --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike
                          white"
                          > > <sparky@a... > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > forgive the multiple posts. its the only way to
                          continue
                          > this
                          > > search for truth, lacking discussion, or other input from the
                          > > members.
                          > > > another thought occurred to me. maybe truth contained
                          in
                          > its
                          > > simplicity. the aztecs were always seeking victims for
                          > sacrifice.
                          > > if i was a trader i might avoid making a landing in mexico.
                          any
                          > > traveler from peru or quito reaching mexico, after seeing
                          their
                          > human
                          > > sacrifices, may have wisely kept all information about his
                          > homeland
                          > > to himself. the aztecs dont seem to have had knowledge of
                          boats
                          > > capable of bucking the winds and currents to steer south.
                          > > >
                          > > > mike
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
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                        • james m. clark jr.
                          Hey Mike, All It s actually a blessing to me that you did forget mike. Besides as much as you cover it would seem fitting that it would be me to remind you. I
                          Message 12 of 14 , Mar 19, 2007
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                            Hey Mike, All

                            It's actually a blessing to me that you did forget mike.
                            Besides as much as you cover it would seem fitting that
                            it would be me to remind you.

                            I wish I could say the same Mike, I'm about to break the golden rule
                            as soon as I get word. I do not wish to be consistent with my errors
                            one that I can partly blame on Higher education, partly my error, and
                            parly on theories used in general that are so illusive.

                            Thanks again to Savannah I am corrected

                            On another note, being the comparitive critic I tend to be I'm
                            certianly no Izben, but I can only wonder why advice and info that
                            seems so important would be omited. I wish I knew what it is that I
                            observe in error was just as true, there really is no explaination.
                            It is this habit that inspired me to be who I am. Knowledge is just
                            the first secondary issue avoided amongst intelectuals. As Twain said
                            it's not what I don't know that I fear, it's what I do know I fear.
                            Kenny said it even better, but it is Plato that tells us that Hormer
                            and all the other poet-historians are demented.

                            I have to disagree with Gregory G. Pepetone in Gothic Perspectives on
                            the American Experience when speaking on American ethos. True Twain
                            was a master, but American ethos still do not exist. So called Higher
                            Education is all old world ideas, degrees in modern religion for
                            example in America is equal to physical education and rightly so the
                            majortly of religious works are not even in the english language.
                            Most consider the Mayan bible to be myth. It's the only book I've
                            seen with roughly 75 pages of censership. More obstacles the better,
                            it's about the only way Americans have experinced true hardship.
                            Those thing that matter are just sweept under the rug. I'm sure now
                            that we are going to include Indian Literature but as far as Native
                            Amercan Literature that still seems just a bit to far down the road
                            to hick intuition fees higher for lack of eduation of those scholars
                            to come, and there you have it, contention without an excuse, not
                            even in the region of decency.


                            be well,
                            jamey

                            --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                            <aumsparky@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > hi jamey, all
                            >
                            > all is well here. i had forgotten that a post contained
                            montesinos' king list. it is about impossible to find anywhere
                            else. scholars have a habit of suppressing primary sources that are
                            not also found in other works, thereby losing the only record. maybe
                            i should prepare a copy of montesinos' king list in our file section,
                            so we can have a ready reference next time.
                            >
                            > mike
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: james m. clark jr.
                            > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 2:44 PM
                            > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs and
                            inca (in search of Wari)
                            >
                            >
                            > I hope you paid me no mind Mike, all
                            >
                            > Hoeh's work includes Montesinos list... its mentioned in this
                            > message text (#5348)...but as far as a modern ref. text, I'd
                            > have no idea which, and I hope it's safe to assume the
                            > reason why Montesinos is excluded from ref. book index entirely
                            > is because it's not a modern text.
                            >
                            > I thought I'd do a Magnium PI slide and search for Wari or Huari
                            > at PI. Hoeh list one Huari Titu Capac as the 83rd ruler from --
                            225.
                            >
                            > However an article cought my attention in my recent resarch but
                            > evadently the names of Historical rulers doesn't seem to be even
                            a
                            > factor. So if Huari is really a Spanish name why not Wari Titu
                            Capac
                            > then it would be more suitable.
                            >
                            > Who Was Who in the Huari Empire*
                            > Institute of Andean Studies 33rd annual meeting, January 8-9,
                            1993,
                            > UC-Berkeley
                            > © Patricia Knobloch, 1993
                            > http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~bharley/WWWIAS93Paper.html
                            > (image no. 7 looks like a cross between Hell Boy & Moses,
                            definally
                            > nothing Spanish there.
                            >
                            > be well,
                            > jamey
                            >
                            > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                            > <infoplz@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > hi jamey, all
                            > >
                            > > thanks for the great post jamey. i wonder if this was copied
                            > from the montesinos king list? it certainly extends the inca
                            > presence in the americas much further back than most have
                            thought. i
                            > will study it at length, and may have more to say later.
                            > >
                            > > mike
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: james m. clark jr.
                            > > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:18 PM
                            > > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs and
                            > inca
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > copied this from a pdf. not exactly the excepted time line plus
                            > > this scholar I assume is just as consistant with errors as the
                            > > next. It is a good guess nevertheless.
                            > >
                            > > Names of Peruvians Lengths of Reign Dates
                            > >
                            > > Beginning at Babel
                            > > The first 18 are of the
                            > > Pirua Dynasty. The
                            > > relationship of one to
                            > > another is not always
                            > > stated.
                            > > 1 Pirua Pacari Manco (Ayar 60 2254-2194
                            > > Uchu), the Cush of the Bible.
                            > > 2. Manco Capac I, the Nimrod 30 2194-2164
                            > > of Scripture. He built the
                            > > first city after the flood.
                            > > (Markham, "Hist. of the Incas", p. 51)
                            > > 3. Huanacahui Pirua 50 2164-2114
                            > > 4. Sinchi Cozque 60 2114-2054
                            > > 5. Inti Capac Yupanqui 50 2054-2004
                            > > 6. Manco Capac II, is Horus; 20 2004-1984
                            > >
                            > > note that in Inca records
                            > > he has same name as Nimrod
                            > > does in Inca tradition.
                            > >
                            > > ILLUSTRATION FROM BURMA
                            > >
                            > > The date 2004 is a remarkable parallel for the return to power
                            of
                            > > Horus in Mesopotamia in 2006. Clearly the ancestors of the
                            > Peruvians
                            > > lived outside Mesopotamia, bordering on the River Tyras. As
                            > > confirmation of the exactness of Peruvian material, compare the
                            > > following figures which have been extracted from the earliest
                            > history
                            > > of Burma. Notice the same figure 2004 for Maradzi II. The
                            > ancestors
                            > > of the Burmese Arakan people were at that time also living in
                            the
                            > > steppes of Russia.
                            > >
                            > > Early Kings who Ruled Lengths of Reign Dates
                            > > Over People who now from Burmese Records
                            > > live in Arakan, Burma (Stokvls' "Manuel")
                            > >
                            > > Marayu, is Cush 62 2254-2192
                            > > Maradzi I, is Nimrod 32 2192-2160
                            > >
                            > > The name is derived from
                            > > the Hebrew root "marad," to
                            > > rebel. A Maradzu is a
                            > > great rebel.
                            > >
                            > > Maraonleng 53 2160-2107
                            > > Mararwayleng 48 2107-2059
                            > > Marabheng 55 2059-2004
                            > > Maradzi II, is Horus 33 2004-1971,
                            > > etc.
                            > >
                            > > Now to continue with the Peruvian Kings.
                            > >
                            > > Figures below are approximately the points
                            > > of reign since the lengths of reign are in
                            > > some cases lost.
                            > >
                            > > 7. Tupac Capac -- 1950
                            > > 8. Tini Capac Yupanqui -- 1900
                            > > 9. Titu Capac Yupanqui -- 1875
                            > > 10. Inti Capac Pirua Amaru -- 1850
                            > > 11. Capac Sayhua Capac 60 1800
                            > > 12. Capac Tinia Yupanqui 40 1750
                            > > 13. Ayar Tacko 25 1725
                            > > 14. Huascar Titu 30 1700
                            > > 15. Quispi Titu -- 1675
                            > > 16. Titu Yupanqui Patchacutec I -- 1650
                            > > 17. Titu Capac 25 1625
                            > > 18. Paullu Ticac Pirua 30 1600
                            > >
                            > > A new line of kings
                            > > commences with Amauta.
                            > > The word signifies a
                            > > Magian, or priest.
                            > >
                            > > 19. Lloque Tesag Amauta, a priest 50 1575
                            > > or Magian
                            > >
                            > > Is there not a connection here with the Empire of Sargon and his
                            > > sons in Mesopotamia? They had a vast empire, and on more than
                            one
                            > > occasion Sargon voyaged across the seas. (See
                            > Pritchard's "Ancient
                            > > Near Eastern Texts".)
                            > >
                            > > 20. Cayo Manco Amauta I -- 1525
                            > > 21. Huascar Titu Tupac 33 1500
                            > > 22 Manco Capac III Amauta 50 1450
                            > > 23 Ticac Pupac 30 1425
                            > > 24. Paullu Tutu Capac 19 1400
                            > > 25. Cayo Manco Amauta II 30 1375
                            > > 26. Marasco Patchacutec 40 1325
                            > > 27. Paullu Atauchi Capac -- 1300
                            > > 28. Lluqui Yupanqui 14 1275
                            > > 29. Lluqui Ticac 8 1265
                            > > 30. Capac Yupanqui I 50 1225
                            > > 31, Tupac Yupanqui I 18 1200
                            > > 32. Manco Auqui Tupac Patchacutee 50 1150
                            > > 33. Sinchi Apusqui Huarma
                            > > Huiracocha 40 1120
                            > > 34. Auqui Quitu Atauchi 4 1100
                            > > 35. Ayay Manco -- 1075
                            > > 36. Huiracocha Capac 15 1060
                            > > 37. Tchinchi Roca Amauta 20 1040
                            > > 38. Tupac Amaru Amauta 25 1020
                            > > 39. Capac Raymi Amauta -- 1000
                            > >
                            > > This ruler instituted certain festivals in his name. He is
                            > parallel
                            > > with the time of Odin I of Denmark and of Solomon. He was the
                            > > mainspring behind the development of what archaeologists call
                            the
                            > > Cultist Era. This Era is illustrative of the contact between
                            Old
                            > and
                            > > New World during certain significant ages.
                            > >
                            > > 40. IllJa Tupac 3 --
                            > > --
                            > > 41. Tupac Amauta 3 990
                            > > 42. Huanacauri I 4 --
                            > > --
                            > > 43. Toca Corca Apu Capac 45 960
                            > > 44. Huampar Xayri Tupac I 32 925
                            > > 45. Hinac Huillja Amauta Pachacuti 35 900
                            > > 46. Capac Yupanqui II Amauta 35 860
                            > > 47. Huampar Xayri Tupac II -- 830
                            > > 48. Cayo Manqui Auqui 3 820
                            > > 49. Hinac Huillja 30 800
                            > > 50. Inti Capac Amauta 30 760
                            > > 51. Ayar Manco Capac -- 730
                            > > 52. Yahuar Huquiz, gives his 30 710
                            > > name to five intercalary
                            > > days added to calendar to
                            > > adjust spring equinox
                            > > 53. Capac Titu Yupanqui 23 680
                            > > 54. Tupac Curi I Amauta 39 640
                            > > 55. Tupac Curi II 40 600
                            > > 56. Huillcanota Amauta 60 540
                            > > 57. Tupac Yupanqui II 43 500
                            > > 58. Illja Tupac Capac 4 --
                            > > --
                            > > 59. Titu Raymi Cozque 31 460
                            > > 60. Huqui Nina Auqui 43 430
                            > > 61. Manco Capac IV 23 390
                            > > 62. Cayo Manco Capac 20 365
                            > > 63. Sinchi Ayar Manco 7 360
                            > >
                            > > A major invasion occurs in his reign from the Southeast. This
                            > > begins the true Florescent Era, as labeled by archaeologists.
                            > >
                            > > 64. Huaman Tacko Amauta 5 355
                            > > 65. Titu Yupanqui Pachacuti II -- --
                            > > 66. Titu Huaman Quitu -- 325
                            > > 67. Cozque Huaman Titu -- --
                            > > 68. Cuis Manco 50 275
                            > > 69. Huillja Titu 30 240
                            > > 70. Xayri Tupac 40 200
                            > > 71. Tupac Yupanqui III 25 175
                            > > 72. Huayna Tupac I 37 140
                            > > 73. Huanacauri II 10 130
                            > > 74. Huillja Huaman 60 70
                            > > 75. Huaman Capac 40 30
                            > > 76. Paullu Raymi 19 10
                            > > 77. Manco Capac V Amauta -- 10
                            > > 78. Auqui Atau Huillja 35 40
                            > > 79. Manco Titu Capac 32 90
                            > > 80. Huayna Tupac II 50 140
                            > > 81. Tupac Cauri Pachacuti -- 170
                            > > 82. Arantial -- 200
                            > > 83. Huari Titu Capac -- 225
                            > > 84. Huispa Titu Auqui 18 250
                            > > 85. Toco Cozque -- 270
                            > > 86. Ayar Manco 22 290
                            > > 87. Cuntur Roca -- 320
                            > > 88. Amaru -- 340
                            > >
                            > > From here on
                            > > a definite
                            > > sequence of
                            > > dates is
                            > > possible.
                            > >
                            > > 89. Sinchi Roca 41
                            > > 365-406
                            > > 90. Illja Toca 62 406-468
                            > > 91. Lluqui Yupanqui 45 468-513
                            > > 92. Roca Titu 25 513-538
                            > > 93. Inti Mayta Capac Pachacuti 27 538-565
                            > >
                            > > This concludes the Pre-Inca Era. Notice that when Montesino's
                            > > account is properly begun at Babel it is in perfect harmony
                            with
                            > the
                            > > time element in the next era.
                            > >
                            > > THE INCA RULERS
                            > >
                            > > The succeeding chart illustrates the story of the great Inca
                            > > period. It begins in 565. Is it significant that this is the
                            year
                            > of
                            > > a major movement of peripheral peoples out of the British Isles
                            > in
                            > > the days of Gildas? ("Ency. Brit.", art. "Cave," in eleventh
                            ed.)
                            > >
                            > > The Incas were of a complexion much lighter than their subjects.
                            > > The comments in the following section may be verified in J. A.
                            > > Mason's "Ancient Civilizations of Peru", p. 110.
                            > >
                            > > Inca Kings Lengths of Reign Dates
                            > > or Until an Heir According
                            > > Chosen to Sarmiento
                            > > Beginning of Expansionist Period
                            > >
                            > > 1. Manco Capac 100 565-665
                            > > A.D.
                            > > 2. Sinchi Roca 19 665-684
                            > > According to Garcilassan's
                            > > account this king begins
                            > > expansion.
                            > > 3. Lloqui Yupanqui 111 684-795
                            > > Extended domain to Lake Titicaca.
                            > > 4. Mayta Capac 110 795-905
                            > > Increases realm to Tiahuanaco
                            > > and headwaters of coastal
                            > > rivers. He is the first great
                            > > conqueror.
                            > > 5. Capac Yupanqui 89 905-994
                            > > Troubles develop toward end
                            > > of his reign.
                            > >
                            > > The succeeding kings belong to the Urbanist period.
                            > >
                            > > 6. Inca Roca 103 994-1097
                            > > Near total collapse at
                            > > beginning of his reign. He
                            > > subjugates areas only 20
                            > > miles from capital of Cuxco.
                            > > 7. Titu Cuisi Hualpa 96 1097-1193
                            > > (Yahuar-huaccac)
                            > > 8. Viracocha Inca 101 1193-1294
                            > > Wars with Chanca, Lupaca and
                            > > Colla. His own capital besieged.
                            > > Inca Urcon, dethroned -- --
                            > >
                            > > The succeeding Incas belong to the Imperialist period.
                            > >
                            > > 9. Inca (Cusi) Yupanqui
                            > > Pachacuti 103 1294-1397
                            > > Begins conquests in the
                            > > vicinity of Cuzco.
                            > > 10. Tupac Inca Yupanqui 67 1397-1464
                            > > 11 Huayna Capac 60 1464-1524
                            > > 12. Huascar Inca 7 1524-1531
                            > > 13. Atahuallpa 2 1531-1533
                            > > Tupac Huallpa -- 1533
                            > > 14. Manco Inca, crowned by
                            > > Pizarro 11 1533-1544
                            > > Xayri Tupac 17 1544-1561
                            > > Quispe Yupanqui 8 1561-1569
                            > > Tupac Amaru 3 1569-1572
                            > >
                            > > With this restoration, though partly incomplete, the early
                            history
                            > > of South America comes into its proper place in World History.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                            > > <infoplz@c...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > its a big unknown as far as the early history of the aztec,
                            > > maya, and inca. the most error lies with mainstream history.
                            > each
                            > > must come to their own conclusions. i have read the accepted
                            > > histories, the ancient documents, and the mystical views. so
                            far
                            > my
                            > > conclusions are the inca arrived 10,000 bce, the inca joined
                            > others
                            > > in yucatan circa the start of th mayan long count, 3107 bce.
                            > people
                            > > from yucatan migrated north to ohio and arizona. those that
                            went
                            > to
                            > > arizona returned to mexico as the aztec. the aztecs are as
                            > likely
                            > > to have come from western amazonia. they probably arrived in
                            > mexico
                            > > city circa 200 ce. unless one has read what i have, it is
                            > unlikely
                            > > to be very convincing, i admit. as you read further in the
                            > > archives, i expand on many of these things. mostly just
                            > > speculation, but offered as something to consider.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > mike
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > > From: E. F. Legner
                            > > > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:37 PM
                            > > > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: identity of aztecs
                            > and
                            > > inca
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Continuing my review of earlier postings I come to the
                            > > discussion on
                            > > > Aztecs and Incas. It has been my understanding that both of
                            > > these
                            > > > groups were RECENT arrivals. Aztecs began their culture on
                            > some
                            > > > islands off the coast of western Mexico, south of Mazatlan.
                            > > They
                            > > > arrived in the Mexico City area around 1,100 AD and assumed
                            > > their
                            > > > greatest control just before the arrival of the Europeans
                            > around
                            > > 1500
                            > > > AD. While in power over a greater area of South Mexico they
                            > > > proceeded to rewrite history to favor their own image. They
                            > > > destroyed many "books" that were in existance when they
                            > > arrived. The
                            > > > Inca arrived at a similar time to western So. America and
                            > also
                            > > gained
                            > > > full control around the time the Europeans arrived. They too
                            > > had a
                            > > > campaign to rewrite history, altho' I don't believe they were
                            > as
                            > > > successful and am unfamiliar with what history was written on
                            > > down
                            > > > there.
                            > > >
                            > > > Human sacrifices reached a peak in the Aztec empire, but it
                            > did
                            > > occur
                            > > > in earlier civilizations. The Olmec had some of it as well
                            > as
                            > > other
                            > > > groups.
                            > > >
                            > > > Most of the links referred to in earlier postings are no
                            > longer
                            > > > functional, as is true of the photos. Thus, it is quite
                            > > difficult to
                            > > > understand the purpose of many of the discussions.
                            > > >
                            > > > ====================
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike
                            > white"
                            > > > <sparky@a...> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > forgive the multiple posts. its the only way to
                            > continue
                            > > this
                            > > > search for truth, lacking discussion, or other input from the
                            > > > members.
                            > > > > another thought occurred to me. maybe truth contained
                            > in
                            > > its
                            > > > simplicity. the aztecs were always seeking victims for
                            > > sacrifice.
                            > > > if i was a trader i might avoid making a landing in mexico.
                            > any
                            > > > traveler from peru or quito reaching mexico, after seeing
                            > their
                            > > human
                            > > > sacrifices, may have wisely kept all information about his
                            > > homeland
                            > > > to himself. the aztecs dont seem to have had knowledge of
                            > boats
                            > > > capable of bucking the winds and currents to steer south.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > mike
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
                            > > > Group Site : http://www.epigraphyusa.com
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                          • mike white
                            hi jamey, all there are several on this forum with native american blood, including myself, as im proud of my cherokee quarter. chief john jolly was my
                            Message 13 of 14 , Mar 19, 2007
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                              hi jamey, all
                               
                                 there are several on this forum with native american blood, including myself, as im proud of my cherokee quarter.  chief john jolly was my ancestor.  i hope that we members can get together this summer.  i return to the carolinas in 3 weeks.  im anxious to get back to my beloved smoky mts. 
                               
                              mike
                               
                               
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