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Re: Norse Axe from Tor Bay near Canso

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  • Terry J. Deveau
    Mike, thanks a lot for your post. It is a bit confusing, but the so- called Runic Stone from Yarmouth, Nova Scotia (also called the Fletcher Stone) is an
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 1, 2003
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      Mike, thanks a lot for your post. It is a bit confusing, but the so-
      called "Runic Stone" from Yarmouth, Nova Scotia (also called the
      Fletcher Stone) is an artefact totally unrelated to the Tor Bay axe;
      they were found at opposite ends of the Province (about 600 km apart).

      The Fletcher Stone is a very interesting artefact in its own right,
      as it does appear to have characters engraved on it, but they are
      evidently not Norse runes from a recognizable futhark.

      The Tor Bay axe has three so-called "wend runes", and a number of
      other designs that were interpreted by Strandwold as "secret runes",
      but which appear meerely as geometric patterns to the uninitiated.

      Terry
    • Terry Deveau
      Yes, there is very little in print on the Tor Bay axe. If anyone has any kind of reference at all for the assertion that it is a colonial French Jesuit trade
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 1, 2003
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        Yes, there is very little in print on the Tor Bay axe. If anyone has any kind of reference at all for the assertion that it is a "colonial French Jesuit trade item" I would really appreciate knowing what is the citation. Every time I have seen this assertion, the source of the information was lost, forgotten, or omitted by the person repeating it.
         
        I've attached a map showing the locations of all the purported Norse "finds" in Nova Scotia that I know about. Matt Larsson, a Swedish archaeologist, wrote about Chegoggin as a possible Norse settlement site in 2000; I have heard that he was planning to do some more work there this past summer. There was a lot of talk about certain cellars near Tusket as a Norse settlement site at one time, but this has never been seriously investigated so far, at least as far as I know. Yarmouth and Green Island are locations where possible "runic" inscriptions have been reported. There may also be others on islands near Tusket, but I'm still trying to get those confirmed.
         
        Terry
        -----Original Message-----
        From: mike white [mailto:sparky@...]
        Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 6:24 AM
        To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: Norse Axe from Tor Bay near Canso

         
        hi terry, all
         
           i was aware of the difference, but could not find any info in my search for the tor bay axe.  other than it was thought a colonial french jesuit trade item, as you know, and its been lost.  as was said, the widow may have it.  not knowing the distance between the finds, i thought the magyar rovas rune theory may be a clue to the axe's transliteration.   
           has anyone excavated the so-called 'viking great house' located near one of these finds?  it may have been the same group involved in both alleged artifacts.  600 km isnt so far for voyagers who came so far, and are thought to have gone as far as minnesota.
         
        regards
        mike
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:18 AM
        Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: Norse Axe from Tor Bay near Canso

        Mike, thanks a lot for your post. It is a bit confusing, but the so-
        called "Runic Stone" from Yarmouth, Nova Scotia (also called the
        Fletcher Stone) is an artefact totally unrelated to the Tor Bay axe;
        they were found at opposite ends of the Province (about 600 km apart).

        The Fletcher Stone is a very interesting artefact in its own right,
        as it does appear to have characters engraved on it, but they are
        evidently not Norse runes from a recognizable futhark.

        The Tor Bay axe has three so-called "wend runes", and a number of
        other designs that were interpreted by Strandwold as "secret runes",
        but which appear meerely as geometric patterns to the uninitiated.

        Terry



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      • mike white
        i can only find these links. one is of interest, in suggesting that that a magyar/hun was a shipmate on leif ericson expedition into nova scotia, and that the
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 2, 2003
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             i can only find these links.  one is of interest, in suggesting that that a magyar/hun was a shipmate on leif ericson expedition into nova scotia, and that the runes are of magyar rovas runes.  this explains the compound ligatures that were part of the basis for rejecting them as futhark runes. 
           
           
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 7:26 AM
          Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Norse Axe from Tor Bay near Canso

          I'm currently preparing an article for publication on the subject of an axe,
          once thought to be of early Norse manufacture, that was found in 1880 on the
          shore of Tor Bay, near Canso (see draft of article attached).

          If you are aware of any additional information pertaining to this artefact,
          or any references to it not already cited, it would be greatly appreciated
          if you would let me know, so I can update my article prior to publication.

          If you know of someone who might have the information that I seek, but who
          is not on this list, could you please forward to them a copy of this letter
          and the attachment? Any assistance or suggestion is greatly appreciated.

          Sincerely,
          Terry J. Deveau
          deveau@...


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        • mike white
          hi terry, all i was aware of the difference, but could not find any info in my search for the tor bay axe. other than it was thought a colonial french jesuit
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 2, 2003
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            hi terry, all
             
               i was aware of the difference, but could not find any info in my search for the tor bay axe.  other than it was thought a colonial french jesuit trade item, as you know, and its been lost.  as was said, the widow may have it.  not knowing the distance between the finds, i thought the magyar rovas rune theory may be a clue to the axe's transliteration.   
               has anyone excavated the so-called 'viking great house' located near one of these finds?  it may have been the same group involved in both alleged artifacts.  600 km isnt so far for voyagers who came so far, and are thought to have gone as far as minnesota.
             
            regards
            mike
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:18 AM
            Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: Norse Axe from Tor Bay near Canso

            Mike, thanks a lot for your post. It is a bit confusing, but the so-
            called "Runic Stone" from Yarmouth, Nova Scotia (also called the
            Fletcher Stone) is an artefact totally unrelated to the Tor Bay axe;
            they were found at opposite ends of the Province (about 600 km apart).

            The Fletcher Stone is a very interesting artefact in its own right,
            as it does appear to have characters engraved on it, but they are
            evidently not Norse runes from a recognizable futhark.

            The Tor Bay axe has three so-called "wend runes", and a number of
            other designs that were interpreted by Strandwold as "secret runes",
            but which appear meerely as geometric patterns to the uninitiated.

            Terry



            Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
            Group Site : http://www.epigraphyusa.com
            To unsubscribe from this group, although we hope
            you stay and help us improve.  First consider changing to daily digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions
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          • Terry Deveau
            OK, thanks a lot for the comments. I have attached the best digital image of the Tor Bay axe that I have so far. I m hoping to get a better image in the near
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 2, 2003
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              OK, thanks a lot for the comments. I have attached the best digital image of the Tor Bay axe that I have so far. I'm hoping to get a better image in the near future. The other face (not shown) apparently has nothing visible. According to Strandwold, who has published an extensive analysis of this artefact, there are three "wend runes" inside the rectangular cartouche that identify the maker of the axe head. The other geometrical designs on the face of the axe head bear no relation to runes as they are normally understood; Strandwold calls these "magic runes" and uses them to count-off character positions in the futhorks, and extracts meaning from them in this fashion.
               
              If you can give me some links to other similar axes online, that would be wonderful.
               
              I have no problem in principle with Norsemen making extensive forays into North America in the circa 1000-1400 time period, and indeed I would be very excited to find evidence for that. But my approach is to study each Nova Scotia artefact or site scientifically, without prejudice, and let the evidence speak for itself.
               
              I agree that the Sagas certainly describe events that actually happened, although some fanciful details may have become embellished; but I also believe that the record we have in the Sagas most probably only represents a fraction of the actual adventures of the Norsemen of this period, so any artefacts or sites that are found to scientifically represent Norse exploration or settlement in North America are not constrained to fit the activities described in the Sagas.
               
              Terry
              -----Original Message-----
              From: mike white [mailto:sparky@...]
              Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 5:12 PM
              To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: Norse Axe from Tor Bay near Canso

               
                 i was referring to the pohl citation that you mentioned about the possibility of the axe being a trade item.   there are several images of these trade axes online for comparison, if we had a photo of the artifact for comparison.  they were a common item in the 17th c in ontario and quebec.  
                 if fred brown still monitors this list, perhaps he can add to the discussion.  he is more expert on the matter of vikings in the new world, and i see online that he has discussed a similar issue before. 
                 the mixed nationality of crews of these early voyages is an interesting facet for consideration.  magyar/scythian cultural origins connected the finns and the hungarians from the earliest of times.  so it does not surprise me that their presence could be found among viking remains here.   columbus had basque sailors aboard.  the phoenician remains found in maine often have scripts bearing middle hebrew characters, along with the phoenician.  this confuses many scholars, who seem to expect that these early voyages by semi-literate sailors carried educated scribes, and that if the inscriptions were not perfect, then are quick to deduce that they were forgeries. 
                 in our group links is a comprehensive listing of links to ancient alphabets and scripts, that can be helpful when identifying the characters on artifacts.   ive made a study of the originan and movement of the magyar/scythian/sacca people, and their use of runes.  they were often misnamed as 'turks', due the the sharing of language and cultural traditions.  
                  i personally have no doubt that the viking made numerous voyages to north america.  in fact it was a large emigration, beginning with the settlements in greenland and iceland. 
               
            • Terry Deveau
              Mike, I totally agree with what you are saying about methodology, etc. I am at the stage of reviewing what has already been published about this axe. I m not
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 2, 2003
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                Mike, I totally agree with what you are saying about methodology, etc. I am at the stage of reviewing what has already been published about this axe. I'm not sure if I can do any original research on it or not, because at this time, no one seems to know where it is. I can only find one living person, at age 92, who has even seen it.
                 
                With regards to it being a steel axe, my understanding is that this was determined by a qualified metallurgist at Harvard who made an independent analysis of the actual axe. He said that the metallurgy was consistent with an 11th century manufacture (and was, in fact, the only composition that WOULD be correct for that), but that it would also, of course, be consistent with later manufacture as well.
                 
                I totally agree with your comments about the likelihood of inland explorations. There are historical records of such activities by Norsemen of this period in Eastern Europe, for example.
                 
                With regard to a helmet or sword on the north shore of Lake Superior, are you referring to the Beardsmore finds? These relics were ultimately sold to the Royal Ontario Museum. There was no controversy about them being genuine, but there was a controversy about whether they were truly found there in an ancient context, or planted.
                 
                There doesn't seem to be much on the net about the Beardsmore find, which surprises me because I assumed it was widely known.
                 
                Terry
                -----Original Message-----
                From: mike white [mailto:sparky@...]
                Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 2:47 AM
                To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: Norse Axe from Tor Bay near Canso

                 
                   i prefer to look at the evidence and come to my own conclusions, rather than rely on 'citations' from so-called experts.  its such parroting of ideas that has history so befuddled.  thats why i looked for trade axe images rather than what some other person thought.  its better to think for one's self.  i do read their books, but rather than accept all of their conclusions, i try to weigh what was their basis for thinking it so.  professionals often report what their peers and associates expect, and have much reluctance to venture too far.  thats why all of man's civilized history is compressed into about a 5,000 year extent.  anomalies are normally considered intrusions of later deposits. 
                   the word 'steel' was used on this axe.  i would expect roughly forged iron.  i would expect them to save broken and obsolete iron works to reforge into needed items, as a general rule.  so a find such as this axe must have been a rarity.  
                   human nature what it is, it would be more of a shock if the vikings landed on the coast, and did not use their craft, that were perfectly suited for venturing far inland on streams, to explore as far as possible.  the st lawrence thru the great lakes comes to mind.   be mindful of the extent of their conquests in europe - england, france, much of italy, by the 11th c. 
                   have you found the reference to either a helmet or sword found along the northern shore of lake superior?   i read an obscure mention years ago, and heard no more of it. 
                 
                regards
                mike
              • mike white
                i was referring to the pohl citation that you mentioned about the possibility of the axe being a trade item. there are several images of these trade axes
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 2, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                   
                     i was referring to the pohl citation that you mentioned about the possibility of the axe being a trade item.   there are several images of these trade axes online for comparison, if we had a photo of the artifact for comparison.  they were a common item in the 17th c in ontario and quebec.  
                     if fred brown still monitors this list, perhaps he can add to the discussion.  he is more expert on the matter of vikings in the new world, and i see online that he has discussed a similar issue before. 
                     the mixed nationality of crews of these early voyages is an interesting facet for consideration.  magyar/scythian cultural origins connected the finns and the hungarians from the earliest of times.  so it does not surprise me that their presence could be found among viking remains here.   columbus had basque sailors aboard.  the phoenician remains found in maine often have scripts bearing middle hebrew characters, along with the phoenician.  this confuses many scholars, who seem to expect that these early voyages by semi-literate sailors carried educated scribes, and that if the inscriptions were not perfect, then are quick to deduce that they were forgeries. 
                     in our group links is a comprehensive listing of links to ancient alphabets and scripts, that can be helpful when identifying the characters on artifacts.   ive made a study of the originan and movement of the magyar/scythian/sacca people, and their use of runes.  they were often misnamed as 'turks', due the the sharing of language and cultural traditions.  
                      i personally have no doubt that the viking made numerous voyages to north america.  in fact it was a large emigration, beginning with the settlements in greenland and iceland. 
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:49 PM
                  Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: Norse Axe from Tor Bay near Canso

                  Yes, there is very little in print on the Tor Bay axe. If anyone has any kind of reference at all for the assertion that it is a "colonial French Jesuit trade item" I would really appreciate knowing what is the citation. Every time I have seen this assertion, the source of the information was lost, forgotten, or omitted by the person repeating it.
                   
                  I've attached a map showing the locations of all the purported Norse "finds" in Nova Scotia that I know about. Matt Larsson, a Swedish archaeologist, wrote about Chegoggin as a possible Norse settlement site in 2000; I have heard that he was planning to do some more work there this past summer. There was a lot of talk about certain cellars near Tusket as a Norse settlement site at one time, but this has never been seriously investigated so far, at least as far as I know. Yarmouth and Green Island are locations where possible "runic" inscriptions have been reported. There may also be others on islands near Tusket, but I'm still trying to get those confirmed.
                   
                  Terry
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: mike white [mailto:sparky@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 6:24 AM
                  To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: Norse Axe from Tor Bay near Canso

                   
                  hi terry, all
                   
                     i was aware of the difference, but could not find any info in my search for the tor bay axe.  other than it was thought a colonial french jesuit trade item, as you know, and its been lost.  as was said, the widow may have it.  not knowing the distance between the finds, i thought the magyar rovas rune theory may be a clue to the axe's transliteration.   
                     has anyone excavated the so-called 'viking great house' located near one of these finds?  it may have been the same group involved in both alleged artifacts.  600 km isnt so far for voyagers who came so far, and are thought to have gone as far as minnesota.
                   
                  regards
                  mike
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:18 AM
                  Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: Norse Axe from Tor Bay near Canso

                  Mike, thanks a lot for your post. It is a bit confusing, but the so-
                  called "Runic Stone" from Yarmouth, Nova Scotia (also called the
                  Fletcher Stone) is an artefact totally unrelated to the Tor Bay axe;
                  they were found at opposite ends of the Province (about 600 km apart).

                  The Fletcher Stone is a very interesting artefact in its own right,
                  as it does appear to have characters engraved on it, but they are
                  evidently not Norse runes from a recognizable futhark.

                  The Tor Bay axe has three so-called "wend runes", and a number of
                  other designs that were interpreted by Strandwold as "secret runes",
                  but which appear meerely as geometric patterns to the uninitiated.

                  Terry



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                  you stay and help us improve.  First consider changing to daily digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
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                  Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
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                • mike white
                  i cannot say that these examples are identical, but very similar. one would expect there would be differences from various manufacturers, and over the long
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 2, 2003
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                       i cannot say that these examples are identical, but very similar.  one would expect there would be differences from various manufacturers, and over the long period such trade was transacted. 
                     
                     
                     
                       i lost the other references. 
                     
                     
                    mike
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 3:36 AM
                    Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: Norse Axe from Tor Bay near Canso

                    OK, thanks a lot for the comments. I have attached the best digital image of the Tor Bay axe that I have so far. I'm hoping to get a better image in the near future. The other face (not shown) apparently has nothing visible. According to Strandwold, who has published an extensive analysis of this artefact, there are three "wend runes" inside the rectangular cartouche that identify the maker of the axe head. The other geometrical designs on the face of the axe head bear no relation to runes as they are normally understood; Strandwold calls these "magic runes" and uses them to count-off character positions in the futhorks, and extracts meaning from them in this fashion.
                     
                    If you can give me some links to other similar axes online, that would be wonderful.
                     
                    I have no problem in principle with Norsemen making extensive forays into North America in the circa 1000-1400 time period, and indeed I would be very excited to find evidence for that. But my approach is to study each Nova Scotia artefact or site scientifically, without prejudice, and let the evidence speak for itself.
                     
                    I agree that the Sagas certainly describe events that actually happened, although some fanciful details may have become embellished; but I also believe that the record we have in the Sagas most probably only represents a fraction of the actual adventures of the Norsemen of this period, so any artefacts or sites that are found to scientifically represent Norse exploration or settlement in North America are not constrained to fit the activities described in the Sagas.
                     
                    Terry
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: mike white [mailto:sparky@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 5:12 PM
                    To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: Norse Axe from Tor Bay near Canso

                     
                       i was referring to the pohl citation that you mentioned about the possibility of the axe being a trade item.   there are several images of these trade axes online for comparison, if we had a photo of the artifact for comparison.  they were a common item in the 17th c in ontario and quebec.  
                       if fred brown still monitors this list, perhaps he can add to the discussion.  he is more expert on the matter of vikings in the new world, and i see online that he has discussed a similar issue before. 
                       the mixed nationality of crews of these early voyages is an interesting facet for consideration.  magyar/scythian cultural origins connected the finns and the hungarians from the earliest of times.  so it does not surprise me that their presence could be found among viking remains here.   columbus had basque sailors aboard.  the phoenician remains found in maine often have scripts bearing middle hebrew characters, along with the phoenician.  this confuses many scholars, who seem to expect that these early voyages by semi-literate sailors carried educated scribes, and that if the inscriptions were not perfect, then are quick to deduce that they were forgeries. 
                       in our group links is a comprehensive listing of links to ancient alphabets and scripts, that can be helpful when identifying the characters on artifacts.   ive made a study of the originan and movement of the magyar/scythian/sacca people, and their use of runes.  they were often misnamed as 'turks', due the the sharing of language and cultural traditions.  
                        i personally have no doubt that the viking made numerous voyages to north america.  in fact it was a large emigration, beginning with the settlements in greenland and iceland. 
                     


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                  • mike white
                    i prefer to look at the evidence and come to my own conclusions, rather than rely on citations from so-called experts. its such parroting of ideas that has
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 2, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                       
                         i prefer to look at the evidence and come to my own conclusions, rather than rely on 'citations' from so-called experts.  its such parroting of ideas that has history so befuddled.  thats why i looked for trade axe images rather than what some other person thought.  its better to think for one's self.  i do read their books, but rather than accept all of their conclusions, i try to weigh what was their basis for thinking it so.  professionals often report what their peers and associates expect, and have much reluctance to venture too far.  thats why all of man's civilized history is compressed into about a 5,000 year extent.  anomalies are normally considered intrusions of later deposits. 
                         the word 'steel' was used on this axe.  i would expect roughly forged iron.  i would expect them to save broken and obsolete iron works to reforge into needed items, as a general rule.  so a find such as this axe must have been a rarity.  
                         human nature what it is, it would be more of a shock if the vikings landed on the coast, and did not use their craft, that were perfectly suited for venturing far inland on streams, to explore as far as possible.  the st lawrence thru the great lakes comes to mind.   be mindful of the extent of their conquests in europe - england, france, much of italy, by the 11th c. 
                         have you found the reference to either a helmet or sword found along the northern shore of lake superior?   i read an obscure mention years ago, and heard no more of it. 
                       
                      regards
                      mike
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 3:36 AM
                      Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: Norse Axe from Tor Bay near Canso

                      OK, thanks a lot for the comments. I have attached the best digital image of the Tor Bay axe that I have so far. I'm hoping to get a better image in the near future. The other face (not shown) apparently has nothing visible. According to Strandwold, who has published an extensive analysis of this artefact, there are three "wend runes" inside the rectangular cartouche that identify the maker of the axe head. The other geometrical designs on the face of the axe head bear no relation to runes as they are normally understood; Strandwold calls these "magic runes" and uses them to count-off character positions in the futhorks, and extracts meaning from them in this fashion.
                       
                      If you can give me some links to other similar axes online, that would be wonderful.
                       
                      I have no problem in principle with Norsemen making extensive forays into North America in the circa 1000-1400 time period, and indeed I would be very excited to find evidence for that. But my approach is to study each Nova Scotia artefact or site scientifically, without prejudice, and let the evidence speak for itself.
                       
                      I agree that the Sagas certainly describe events that actually happened, although some fanciful details may have become embellished; but I also believe that the record we have in the Sagas most probably only represents a fraction of the actual adventures of the Norsemen of this period, so any artefacts or sites that are found to scientifically represent Norse exploration or settlement in North America are not constrained to fit the activities described in the Sagas.
                       
                      Terry
                       
                    • mike white
                      i think it was the beardsmore relics. incredible that they would sooner think they were planted. the steel still surprises me. this was the time of the
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 3, 2003
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                           i think it was the beardsmore relics.  incredible that they would sooner think they were planted.  
                           the steel still surprises me.  this was the time of the crusades when knights from western europe went up against the saracens, and were ill-matched against the damascas steel of the latter. 
                           yes the vikings reached far eastward in europe too, conquering kiev. 
                           i think barry fell thought the fletcher stone inscription was basque. 
                           finns and huns probably served as seaman on these viking expeditions west.  their cultural origin being magyar/scythian - it is to be considered that they brought with them superior knowledge of the geography and navigation of the western ocean.   there is reason to think these people sailed there before the vikings.  the only scientific evidence i can offer is the linguistic prevalance of scythian words as the roots of many native american tribes. 
                           im a mystic as well as a scientist, considering metaphysics as the natural advanced study of science, so my area of study is wider.  i try to offer up those thoughts that find some support within both fields.  i know that this material is not your choice for inclusion in your book - but you may find it interesting ...
                         
                         
                         
                         
                         
                      • Terry Deveau
                        Doe, Thanks for the references. In case anyone is interested, I have just scanned a couple of new photos of the Tor Bay axe this morning, from Holand and
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 3, 2003
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                          Doe,
                           
                          Thanks for the references.
                           
                          In case anyone is interested, I have just scanned a couple of new photos of the Tor Bay axe this morning, from Holand and Goodwin. The lighting is from a different angle in each case. I'll upload them to the files area, as they are too large to send as attachments (I tried).
                           
                          Terry
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