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Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] thorvald's grave

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  • Frederick N. Brown
    My own view on this is the opposite. I think the old timers were more precise on their descriptions than moderns, simply because they had to be in
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 30, 2002
      My own view on this is the opposite. I think the old timers were more
      precise on their descriptions than moderns, simply because they had to be in
      transmission of information to other navigators. For one example,
      Narragansett Bay is in no way a bay. A bay is an indentation of the
      seacoast between two headlands. A fjord is an estuary of some depth,
      usually extreme into the terrain of a landmass (usually the result of
      geological factors of mountainous terrain). An island is something
      observably an island from a seaman's perspective, i.e. you can see around it
      without much travel. A "Land" more extensive - a place that can be settled
      and has steady water supply, which islands often do not. Norse perspective
      on this is shown in comparisons with the names of Gotland (Baltic) and Long
      Island (New York). Both these masses are of similar size and configuration,
      yet differently named. We insist on Greenland as an island, information of
      little use to a ship approaching such a huge landmass. We cannot make up our
      minds if Austrialia is an island or a continent? Those ivory tower
      scholastics should get real.

      A "Hop" is an exactly precise description of certain conditions near a
      waterway. Best I have seen in translation is by one Vera Hendriksson
      (Norwegian), who has it as "--an estuary into which salt water flows at high
      tide" (implying usually a tidal "bore").

      All this was more important in those days before reliable charts enabled
      looser perspectives. A seaman who might have been drawn into a dangerous
      situation by a loose description would be a lifetime enemy of the one who
      so misguided him.

      Some of the stuff of yore seems vague to us but clear to them. An example
      is "sugar": to us a sweet stuff, to them a chemical phenomenon, I.e sugar of
      lead = arsenic. etc. Semantic problems we have to try to penetrate to

      Concerning "Crossannes" (Cross Cape), the marker described in most sagas are
      crosses, one at the head and one at the feet. It does not seem likely that
      a stone would be added
      but it is possible. It is also possible the the body was subsequently
      removed to Greenland, but the
      broken tipped arrow head was discovered at some distance from where Thorvald
      would be most
      like re-buried - Bratahlid near the southern end of Greenland.

      The saga description of Leif's landing is that they rowed up the river to a
      lake and encamped near
      hills which were present there. They set up "budir" (booths or booth),
      which is a speicific type of
      structure which I believe was always present aboard a ship as a
      semi-permanent residdnce of the
      captain. When the ship was idle, the budir was brought ashore and assembled
      with turf walls at the
      settlement and also transported and set up at the "Things" (minor
      parliaments) where its size and
      quality would indicate the status of the owner

      Fred Brown
      Voyage of Wave Cleaver, Inc
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <sparky@...>
      To: <Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 9:29 PM
      Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] thorvald's grave

      > when i started this thread i included links to all the material i
      > was referencing. an estuary to a norseman may be any river to the
      > sea, and he might use the word fijord for it i would think.
      > if you read all of the sagas given in the link, it tells of the
      > house built by the first expedition, with a lake upstream of it.
      > those expeditions that followed received permission to use this same
      > house. so one can conclude its the same area.
      > the inscribed stone may have been from the original grave, but its
      > dubious. it wasnt found on any headland, but along a wooded shore,
      > well away from the spot llater celebrated as the 'spot' of thorvald's
      > grave. the sagas that i read make it clear his remains were taken to
      > greenland later.
      > i originally included maps of the hampton shoreline, and a rough
      > map of the st lawrence, i believe.
      > thorvald and its variants seems to be a very common name back
      > then.
      > based on all the sources that ive come across, im confident that
      > the vikings or norsemen were all over new england and the coast to
      > the north, including specifically rhode island, and martha's
      > vineyard. they also navigated the st lawrence all the way thru the
      > great lakes - and all of this was prior to 1000 ce. by about 1365 i
      > think they had traversed inland waters as far as oregon. i expect
      > signs to be found in montana, and in the northwest, along the
      > columbia river. my source for this is cayce. cayce gave much
      > information on norsemen coming to the americas in precolumbian
      > times. i hope that members read it, and decide for themselves as to
      > its truth. the vikings send hundreds of ships and colonists the size
      > of the mayflower, but over 500 years earlier.
      > regards
      > mike
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