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Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] thorvald's grave

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  • mike white
    after reading this saga of vinland, it would seem that the grave thought to be Thorvald s, brother of leif, and son of eric the red, could not be the one
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 20, 2002
       
         after reading this saga of vinland, it would seem that the grave thought to be
      Thorvald's, brother of leif, and son of eric the red, could not be the one mentioned as found in new england.  he died of an indian arrow to his armpit, and was buried on a tableland on the north bank of the st lawrence estuary.  his family later moved his bones back to greenland i believe. 
       
       
       
       
         the headland at hampton new hampshire doesnt seem right to me.  where is the island at the entrance to the sound?  where is the inland lake reached by the river? 
       
       
         this is a poor map but shows lac st jean and lake ontario. 
       
         im sure fred has thoughts, and is well informed concerning this. 
       
      regards
      mike
       
       
    • Frederick N. Brown
      I think I may be missing some posts here. I don t know what this is in reply to - as it seems to be. The statement that the grave is in the north bank of the
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 20, 2002
        I think I may be missing some posts here. I don't know what this is in reply to - as it seems to be.
         
        The statement that the grave is in the north bank of the St. Lawrence is making a dubious premise.  The site might well be in New England, specifically within the Plymouth Bay area.  The argument for this place is pretty sound and especially so with an artifact (an ancient Viking axe being found nearby).
         
        The death strike is variously described as under the armpit or in the groin.  I think the story that the bones were recovered and taken to Greenland is a result of an arrowhead benig found in a grave up there and assumed to the one that killed Thorvald.  However, according to the saga he pulled the arrow out and remarked on the amount of fat on it, although it could still have accompanied the body - if that was done.
         
        The sagas state that the place was either an island or a headland - Thorvald's dying request specifically saying a headland.  The estuary was described as a fjord- sometime detailed as a confluence of two fjords.
         
        I think the lake is from another place entirely.
         
        If anyone has it, will they forward the original post of this to me, please.
         
        Fred Brown
        Voyage of Wave Cleaver, Inc
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 12:35 AM
        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] thorvald's grave

         
           after reading this saga of vinland, it would seem that the grave thought to be
        Thorvald's, brother of leif, and son of eric the red, could not be the one mentioned as found in new england.  he died of an indian arrow to his armpit, and was buried on a tableland on the north bank of the st lawrence estuary.  his family later moved his bones back to greenland i believe. 
         
         
         
         
           the headland at hampton new hampshire doesnt seem right to me.  where is the island at the entrance to the sound?  where is the inland lake reached by the river? 
         
         
           this is a poor map but shows lac st jean and lake ontario. 
         
           im sure fred has thoughts, and is well informed concerning this. 
         
        regards
        mike
         
         

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      • michael white <sparky@all-ez.com>
        when i started this thread i included links to all the material i was referencing. an estuary to a norseman may be any river to the sea, and he might use the
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 24, 2002
          when i started this thread i included links to all the material i
          was referencing. an estuary to a norseman may be any river to the
          sea, and he might use the word fijord for it i would think.
          if you read all of the sagas given in the link, it tells of the
          house built by the first expedition, with a lake upstream of it.
          those expeditions that followed received permission to use this same
          house. so one can conclude its the same area.
          the inscribed stone may have been from the original grave, but its
          dubious. it wasnt found on any headland, but along a wooded shore,
          well away from the spot llater celebrated as the 'spot' of thorvald's
          grave. the sagas that i read make it clear his remains were taken to
          greenland later.
          i originally included maps of the hampton shoreline, and a rough
          map of the st lawrence, i believe.
          thorvald and its variants seems to be a very common name back
          then.
          based on all the sources that ive come across, im confident that
          the vikings or norsemen were all over new england and the coast to
          the north, including specifically rhode island, and martha's
          vineyard. they also navigated the st lawrence all the way thru the
          great lakes - and all of this was prior to 1000 ce. by about 1365 i
          think they had traversed inland waters as far as oregon. i expect
          signs to be found in montana, and in the northwest, along the
          columbia river. my source for this is cayce. cayce gave much
          information on norsemen coming to the americas in precolumbian
          times. i hope that members read it, and decide for themselves as to
          its truth. the vikings send hundreds of ships and colonists the size
          of the mayflower, but over 500 years earlier.

          regards
          mike
        • Paul Troemner
          Mike, The problems with the Norse incursions into North America are that the majority of the occurrences were not recorded, and they left little or nothing
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 25, 2002
            Mike,

            The problems with the Norse incursions into North
            America are that the majority of the occurrences were
            not recorded, and they left little or nothing behind.

            All through the last several hundred years, whenever
            "new land" has been whispered or rumored, especially
            when it was considered "free" (no cost), it has
            essentially been a gold-rush situation: Drop what you
            are doing immediately, and go stake a claim,
            regardless of the time or trouble to do so.

            Arrival of the Norse in North America is not a
            question of whether it happened, but when and where.
            If you look at the map concerning the location of
            Algonquin-speaking tribes at the arrival of the later
            European colonizers, the Algonquins were located
            almost exclusively along the rivers and great lakes in
            North America. Algonquin is a form of Old Norse (or,
            perhaps more correctly the other way around?).

            There is also the belief that the Norse were not
            merely colonizing a new land, but actually returning
            to their ancestral homeland (whether they were
            consciously aware of such or not). The Algonquin
            language has a greater geographical spread and variety
            than Old Norse, pointing to it potentially being older
            than Old Norse.

            Paul

            --- "michael white <sparky@...>"
            <sparky@...> wrote:
            >
            > when i started this thread i included links to
            > all the material i
            > was referencing. an estuary to a norseman may be
            > any river to the
            > sea, and he might use the word fijord for it i would
            > think...


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          • Frederick N. Brown
            My own view on this is the opposite. I think the old timers were more precise on their descriptions than moderns, simply because they had to be in
            Message 5 of 5 , Dec 30, 2002
              My own view on this is the opposite. I think the old timers were more
              precise on their descriptions than moderns, simply because they had to be in
              transmission of information to other navigators. For one example,
              Narragansett Bay is in no way a bay. A bay is an indentation of the
              seacoast between two headlands. A fjord is an estuary of some depth,
              usually extreme into the terrain of a landmass (usually the result of
              geological factors of mountainous terrain). An island is something
              observably an island from a seaman's perspective, i.e. you can see around it
              without much travel. A "Land" more extensive - a place that can be settled
              and has steady water supply, which islands often do not. Norse perspective
              on this is shown in comparisons with the names of Gotland (Baltic) and Long
              Island (New York). Both these masses are of similar size and configuration,
              yet differently named. We insist on Greenland as an island, information of
              little use to a ship approaching such a huge landmass. We cannot make up our
              minds if Austrialia is an island or a continent? Those ivory tower
              scholastics should get real.

              A "Hop" is an exactly precise description of certain conditions near a
              waterway. Best I have seen in translation is by one Vera Hendriksson
              (Norwegian), who has it as "--an estuary into which salt water flows at high
              tide" (implying usually a tidal "bore").

              All this was more important in those days before reliable charts enabled
              looser perspectives. A seaman who might have been drawn into a dangerous
              situation by a loose description would be a lifetime enemy of the one who
              so misguided him.

              Some of the stuff of yore seems vague to us but clear to them. An example
              is "sugar": to us a sweet stuff, to them a chemical phenomenon, I.e sugar of
              lead = arsenic. etc. Semantic problems we have to try to penetrate to
              understand.

              Concerning "Crossannes" (Cross Cape), the marker described in most sagas are
              two
              crosses, one at the head and one at the feet. It does not seem likely that
              a stone would be added
              but it is possible. It is also possible the the body was subsequently
              removed to Greenland, but the
              broken tipped arrow head was discovered at some distance from where Thorvald
              would be most
              like re-buried - Bratahlid near the southern end of Greenland.

              The saga description of Leif's landing is that they rowed up the river to a
              lake and encamped near
              hills which were present there. They set up "budir" (booths or booth),
              which is a speicific type of
              structure which I believe was always present aboard a ship as a
              semi-permanent residdnce of the
              captain. When the ship was idle, the budir was brought ashore and assembled
              with turf walls at the
              settlement and also transported and set up at the "Things" (minor
              parliaments) where its size and
              quality would indicate the status of the owner


              Fred Brown
              Voyage of Wave Cleaver, Inc
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <sparky@...>
              To: <Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 9:29 PM
              Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] thorvald's grave


              >
              > when i started this thread i included links to all the material i
              > was referencing. an estuary to a norseman may be any river to the
              > sea, and he might use the word fijord for it i would think.
              > if you read all of the sagas given in the link, it tells of the
              > house built by the first expedition, with a lake upstream of it.
              > those expeditions that followed received permission to use this same
              > house. so one can conclude its the same area.
              > the inscribed stone may have been from the original grave, but its
              > dubious. it wasnt found on any headland, but along a wooded shore,
              > well away from the spot llater celebrated as the 'spot' of thorvald's
              > grave. the sagas that i read make it clear his remains were taken to
              > greenland later.
              > i originally included maps of the hampton shoreline, and a rough
              > map of the st lawrence, i believe.
              > thorvald and its variants seems to be a very common name back
              > then.
              > based on all the sources that ive come across, im confident that
              > the vikings or norsemen were all over new england and the coast to
              > the north, including specifically rhode island, and martha's
              > vineyard. they also navigated the st lawrence all the way thru the
              > great lakes - and all of this was prior to 1000 ce. by about 1365 i
              > think they had traversed inland waters as far as oregon. i expect
              > signs to be found in montana, and in the northwest, along the
              > columbia river. my source for this is cayce. cayce gave much
              > information on norsemen coming to the americas in precolumbian
              > times. i hope that members read it, and decide for themselves as to
              > its truth. the vikings send hundreds of ships and colonists the size
              > of the mayflower, but over 500 years earlier.
              >
              > regards
              > mike
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
              > Group Site : http://www.epigraphyusa.com
              > To unsubscribe from this group, although we hope
              > you stay and help us improve. First consider changing to daily digest, or
              no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions
              > if you must leave send an email to:
              > Precolumbian_Inscriptions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
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