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Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] shamash

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  • clyde winters
    Hi Mike: As I have said earlier I have not attempted to read the cuneiform part of the fm. I have only deciphered the Proto-Sumerian part. The mention of
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 7, 2001
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      Hi Mike:
      As I have said earlier I have not attempted to read the cuneiform part of the fm. I have only deciphered the Proto-Sumerian part.
      The mention of Shamash does little to dispute my interpretation of the Proto-Sumaerian part of the fm bowl, because among the
      Sumerians Shamash was principally the judge and law-giver with some fertility attributes. In the hymm of Shamash it is noted that:

      You grant revelations, Shamash, to the families of men,

      150. Your harsh face and fierce light you give to them. . . .

      154. The heavens are not enough as the vessel into which you gaze,

      155. The sum of the lands is inadequate as a seer's bowl.......

      159. You deliver people surrounded by mighty waves,

      160. In return you receive their pure, clear libations. . . .

      165. They in their reverence laud the mention of you,

      166. And worship your majesty for ever. . . .
      (see:http://alexm.here.ru:8081/mirrors/www.enteract.com/jwalz/Eliade/133.html)
      It is also noted that:
      n a moment you discern what they say;
      "127. You hear and examine them; you determine the lawsuit of the wronged.
      128. Every single person is entrusted to your hands;
      129. You manage their omens; that which is perplexing you make plain.
      130. You observe, Shamash, prayer, supplication, and benediction,
      131. Obeisance, kneeling, ritual murmurs, and prostration.
      132. The feeble man calls you from the hollow of his mouth,
      133. The humble, the weak, the afflicted, the poor, "
      (see:W. G. Lambert, in his Babylonian Wisdom Literature (Oxford, 1960,)I, 127 ff. ).
      This quotations make it clear that if one wished to have their prayers answered that would probably want to call on the help of
      Shamash.
      On the Fuente bowl we read the following:
      (1) Girls take an oath to act justly (this) place. (2) (This is) a favorable oracle of the people. (3) Send forth a just divine
      decree. (4) The charm (this bowl) (is) full of Good. (5) The (Goddess) Nia is pure. (6) Take an oath (to her). (7) The
      Diviner. (8) The divine decree of Nia (is) , (9) to surround the people with Goodness/Gladness. (10) Value the people's
      oracle. (11) The soul (to), (12) appear as a witness to the [Good that comes from faith in the Goddess Nia before] all
      mankind."
      Given Shamash's fertility attributes, mention of this god in the fm text would agree with our interpretation that the bowl relates
      to fertility rituals associated with a female cult. I don't see why we should imagine that the Sumerian females only worshipped
      female gods! Given the recognition of Shamash as a just judge, it would have been natural for the women at Fuente to call on
      Shamash, in addition to Nia, since both gods were associated with fertility. Also please send me a copy of mario's decipherment.
      Clyde


      michael white wrote:

      > hi clyde
      >
      > thanx you for the info clyde. have you and mario discussed the
      > seeming differences in your transliteration of the fm cuneiform? it
      > would appear that shamash was the sun god of sumeria, a male deity,
      > with a symbol of the solar disk with a four-pointed star within it.
      > we have noted the significance of the four displayed by the fingers
      > of the figure on the fm in previous discussions. to a casual
      > observer like myself, the shamash interpretation would seem to fit
      > better. cuneiform would be more likely from armenia to sumeria, with
      > the former more archaic than the latter. cabeza by rays on hat and
      > inclination of eyes seems solar oriented. plus its known there was a
      > temple of the sun on an island in titicaca. the inca perpetuated the
      > solar worship. im not qualified to dispute you, dr winters, merely
      > hoping to arrive at truth thru discussion. this link may be of
      > interest to some.
      >
      > http://solar-center.stanford.edu/folklore/folklore.html
      >
      > since peru and bolivia share control of lake titicaca, i suppose
      > there will never be an agreement to lower its level, much less drain
      > it. which will hinder science and knowledge, imho. ecology,
      > bureaucrats, and sceptics, frustrate me to no end.
      > we built a highway thru amazonia so clear-cut farmers could have
      > homesteads, and then were appalled when they did their thing with
      > burning the jungle away. duh!
      >
      > regards
      > imho
      >
      >
      > Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
      > Group Site : http://www.epigraphy.f2s.com
      > To unsubscribe from this group, although we hope
      > you stay and help us improve. First consider changing to daily digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions
      > if you must leave send an email to:
      > Precolumbian_Inscriptions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • michael white
      hi gang forgive me adding to my own post. let me think out loud plz. oftentimes the ancients utilize holy symbols to perpetuate great truths. like the
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 7, 2001
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        hi gang

        forgive me adding to my own post. let me think out loud plz.
        oftentimes the ancients utilize holy symbols to perpetuate great
        truths. like the crescent moon is often shown with a star within its
        nether tip, shamash is shown with a 4 pointed star within its disk.
        this tells me these are inner planets, either mercury or venus. both
        have very mystical and occult significance, regarding both solar and
        lunar mysteries. the meso-americans, like their asian counterparts
        were well aware of this, as shown by their careful observations of
        venus especially. this wisdom has been only given to the initiated
        and the enlightened throughout history, so i will say no more.


        regards
        imho



        --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@y..., "mike white" <infoplz@h...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > hi carl
        >
        > i gathered as much also. as far as i know, neith was worshipped
        mainly in upper egypt, with later dynasties of lower egypt
        worshipping nut, and then mostly in funerary rituals. like ephesus
        was a lunar center, tiwanaku seems devoted to sun worship. however,
        i havent ruled out a connection with venus, as well as the sun.
        >
        > kr
        > mike
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Carllehrburger
        > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@y...
        > Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 2:19 PM
        > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] shamash
        >
        >
        > As a note regarding the significance of the number 4, in the
        Mayan system, the god of #4 is the Sun .
        > Carl
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: michael white
        > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@y...
        > Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 2:30 AM
        > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] shamash
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > hi clyde
        >
        > thanx you for the info clyde. have you and mario discussed
        the
        > seeming differences in your transliteration of the fm
        cuneiform? it
        > would appear that shamash was the sun god of sumeria, a male
        deity,
        > with a symbol of the solar disk with a four-pointed star within
        it.
        > we have noted the significance of the four displayed by the
        fingers
        > of the figure on the fm in previous discussions. to a casual
        > observer like myself, the shamash interpretation would seem to
        fit
        > better. cuneiform would be more likely from armenia to
        sumeria, with
        > the former more archaic than the latter. cabeza by rays on hat
        and
        > inclination of eyes seems solar oriented. plus its known there
        was a
        > temple of the sun on an island in titicaca. the inca
        perpetuated the
        > solar worship. im not qualified to dispute you, dr winters,
        merely
        > hoping to arrive at truth thru discussion. this link may be of
        > interest to some.
        >
        > http://solar-center.stanford.edu/folklore/folklore.html
        >
        > since peru and bolivia share control of lake titicaca, i
        suppose
        > there will never be an agreement to lower its level, much less
        drain
        > it. which will hinder science and knowledge, imho. ecology,
        > bureaucrats, and sceptics, frustrate me to no end.
        > we built a highway thru amazonia so clear-cut farmers could
        have
        > homesteads, and then were appalled when they did their thing
        with
        > burning the jungle away. duh!
        >
        >
        > regards
        > imho
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
        > Group Site : http://www.epigraphy.f2s.com
        > To unsubscribe from this group, although we hope
        > you stay and help us improve. First consider changing to daily
        digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions
        > if you must leave send an email to:
        > Precolumbian_Inscriptions-unsubscribe@y...
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        >
        >
        > Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
        > Group Site : http://www.epigraphy.f2s.com
        > To unsubscribe from this group, although we hope
        > you stay and help us improve. First consider changing to daily
        digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions
        > if you must leave send an email to:
        > Precolumbian_Inscriptions-unsubscribe@y...
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
      • mike white
        hi clyde, bernardo, and all welcome to the two new members we have gotten today. thank you to clyde and bernardo for being patient with my ignorance on
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 7, 2001
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          hi clyde, bernardo, and all
           
              welcome to the two new members we have gotten today.  thank you to clyde and bernardo for being patient with my ignorance on linguistics.  we common folk need to sort out what is known.  i apparently wrongly assumed that both clyde and mario had transliterated the cuneiform on the fm bowl.  i never received any transcript from mario or the conference on the findings.  i based my comments on what i have gleaned here from posts made by awen and clyde. 
             so we have three distinct scripts on fuente magna, correct if im wrong.  they are :
          1. akkadian cuneiform
          2. proto-sumerian 
          3. unknown semitic script    
           
             dr. winters transliterated the proto-sumerian, and determined a female cult and oracle to a 'female' goddess called neith or nia. 
             dr. mario [forgive me not remembering his surname]  transliterated an unknown of the three, determining a worship of shamash, which they consider a goddess.   
             both parties are inclined to believe a fertility goddess was worshipped. 
             throughout history popular belief divided the gods into male and female, in error.  in truth, by definition, a god is an undivided whole, neither male nor female, but a composite of both.  so further debate along this line is futile and moot. 
             what we really want to discover is the place of origin of this group, and when?   since there are no greek, alexandrian, or byzantian influences on the fm bowl, i think we can safely say that it predates 330 bce, with a place of origin most likely from the greater armenia to mesopotamia region.  i personally lean to pre 1300 bce, and even am inclined to believe pre 3100bce.  
             i for one would greatly appreciate it if clyde, mario, and bernardo - would somehow make it clear which exact script they have worked with, and which remain to be transliterated.  should we not expect all three to relay the same message?   
           
           
          regards
          mike
          imho   
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 9:29 PM
          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] shamash

          Hi Mike:
          As I have said earlier I have not attempted to read the cuneiform part of the fm. I have only deciphered the Proto-Sumerian part.
          The mention of Shamash does little to dispute my interpretation of the Proto-Sumaerian part of the fm bowl, because  among the
          Sumerians  Shamash was principally the judge and law-giver with some fertility attributes. In the hymm of Shamash it is noted that:

          You grant revelations, Shamash, to the families of men,

          150. Your harsh face and fierce light you give to them. . . .

          154. The heavens are not enough as the vessel into which you gaze,

          155. The sum of the lands is inadequate as a seer's bowl.......

          159. You deliver people surrounded by mighty waves,

          160. In return you receive their pure, clear libations. . . .

          165. They in their reverence laud the mention of you,

          166. And worship your majesty for ever. . . .
          (see:http://alexm.here.ru:8081/mirrors/www.enteract.com/jwalz/Eliade/133.html)
          It is also noted that:
          n a moment you discern what they say;
          "127. You hear and examine them; you determine the lawsuit of the wronged.
          128. Every single person is entrusted to your hands;
          129. You manage their omens; that which is perplexing you make plain.
          130. You observe, Shamash, prayer, supplication, and benediction,
          131. Obeisance, kneeling, ritual murmurs, and prostration.
          132. The feeble man calls you from the hollow of his mouth,
          133. The humble, the weak, the afflicted, the poor, "
          (see:W. G. Lambert, in his Babylonian Wisdom Literature (Oxford, 1960,)I, 127 ff. ).
          This quotations make it clear that if one wished to have their prayers answered that would probably want to call on the help of
          Shamash.
              On the Fuente bowl we read the following:
          (1) Girls take an oath to act justly (this) place. (2) (This is) a favorable oracle of the people. (3) Send forth a just divine
          decree. (4) The charm (this bowl) (is) full of Good. (5) The (Goddess) Nia is pure. (6) Take an oath (to her). (7) The
          Diviner. (8) The divine decree of Nia (is) , (9) to surround the people with Goodness/Gladness. (10) Value the people's
          oracle. (11) The soul (to), (12) appear as a witness to the [Good that comes from faith in the Goddess Nia before] all
          mankind."
          Given Shamash's fertility attributes, mention of this god in the fm text would agree with our interpretation that the bowl relates
          to fertility rituals associated with a female cult. I don't see why we should imagine that the Sumerian females only worshipped
          female gods! Given the recognition of Shamash as a just judge, it would have been natural for the women at Fuente to call on
          Shamash, in addition to Nia, since both gods were associated with fertility. Also please send me a copy of mario's decipherment.
          Clyde


          michael white wrote:

          > hi clyde
          >
          >    thanx you for the info clyde.  have you and mario discussed the
          > seeming differences in your transliteration of the fm cuneiform?  it
          > would appear that shamash was the sun god of sumeria, a male deity,
          > with a symbol of the solar disk with a four-pointed star within it.
          > we have noted the significance of the four displayed by the fingers
          > of the figure on the fm in previous discussions.  to a casual
          > observer like myself, the shamash interpretation would seem to fit
          > better.  cuneiform would be more likely from armenia to sumeria, with
          > the former more archaic than the latter.  cabeza by rays on hat and
          > inclination of eyes seems solar oriented.  plus its known there was a
          > temple of the sun on an island in titicaca.  the inca perpetuated the
          > solar worship.  im not qualified to dispute you, dr winters, merely
          > hoping to arrive at truth thru discussion.  this link may be of
          > interest to some.
          >
          > http://solar-center.stanford.edu/folklore/folklore.html
          >
          >    since peru and bolivia share control of lake titicaca, i suppose
          > there will never be an agreement to lower its level, much less drain
          > it.  which will hinder science and knowledge, imho.  ecology,
          > bureaucrats, and sceptics, frustrate me to no end.
          >    we built a highway thru amazonia so clear-cut farmers could have
          > homesteads, and then were appalled when they did their thing with
          > burning the jungle away.  duh!
          >
          > regards
          > imho
          >
          >
          > Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
          > Group Site : http://www.epigraphy.f2s.com
          > To unsubscribe from this group, although we hope
          > you stay and help us improve.  First consider changing to daily digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions
          > if you must leave send an email to:
          > Precolumbian_Inscriptions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


          Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
          Group Site : http://www.epigraphy.f2s.com
          To unsubscribe from this group, although we hope
          you stay and help us improve.  First consider changing to daily digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions
          if you must leave send an email to:
          Precolumbian_Inscriptions-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • alamatre@yahoo.com
          Let them eat cake mmm. Trash thousands of years of developed, unique and interdependant lifewebs just because you as a techno-dominant human feel they are in
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 7, 2001
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            Let them eat cake mmm. Trash thousands of years of developed, unique
            and interdependant lifewebs just because you as a techno-dominant
            human feel they are in the way of your current curiosity. Where is the
            metaphysics in that? Are you or are you not a 'sensitive'?
            -AMatre

            --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@y..., "mike white" <infoplz@h...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > in three hours the creation of lake titicaca destroyed the whole
            area. in 500 years, using the methods you prefer, very little, if
            anything, has been discovered, about the civilization of tiwanaku.
            birds have wings, let them find another wetland. the few aymara
            subsistence farmers could easily be relocated, and be given a better
            life than they presently scratch out of this arid plateau. besides,
            lowering its level would not create the situation that you rant about.
            current methods date the founding of the andean culture at 300bce. do
            you prefer the status quo?
            >
            >
            > imho
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: alamatre@y...
            > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@y...
            > Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 8:43 AM
            > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: shamash
            >
            >
            > Why on earth would anyone want to drain Titicaca? In three days it
            > would totally devistate the entire ecological chain of being for
            the
            > whole region, instantly and permanently wink out thousands of
            unique,
            > endangered species in and out of the water. It would deprive whole
            > networks of life, both animal and plant, which depend on that sole
            > source of water in the high-desert.
            >
            > Extinction and collapse of the area's life forces, physical and
            > metaphysical, would be devistating to the wild as well as domestic
            > situation. What would such a massive, horrific project prove that
            some
            > underwater radar and a few scuba dives wouldnt accomplish?
            >
            > -AMatre
            >
            > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@y..., "michael white"
            <infoplz@h...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > hi clyde
            > >
            > > thanx you for the info clyde. have you and mario discussed
            the
            > > seeming differences in your transliteration of the fm cuneiform?
            it
            > > would appear that shamash was the sun god of sumeria, a male
            deity,
            > > with a symbol of the solar disk with a four-pointed star within
            it.
            > > we have noted the significance of the four displayed by the
            fingers
            > > of the figure on the fm in previous discussions. to a casual
            > > observer like myself, the shamash interpretation would seem to
            fit
            > > better. cuneiform would be more likely from armenia to
            sumeria,
            > with
            > > the former more archaic than the latter. cabeza by rays on hat
            and
            > > inclination of eyes seems solar oriented. plus its known there
            was
            > a
            > > temple of the sun on an island in titicaca. the inca
            perpetuated
            > the
            > > solar worship. im not qualified to dispute you, dr winters,
            merely
            > > hoping to arrive at truth thru discussion. this link may be of
            > > interest to some.
            > >
            > > http://solar-center.stanford.edu/folklore/folklore.html
            > >
            > > since peru and bolivia share control of lake titicaca, i
            suppose
            > > there will never be an agreement to lower its level, much less
            drain
            > > it. which will hinder science and knowledge, imho. ecology,
            > > bureaucrats, and sceptics, frustrate me to no end.
            > > we built a highway thru amazonia so clear-cut farmers could
            have
            > > homesteads, and then were appalled when they did their thing
            with
            > > burning the jungle away. duh!
            > >
            > >
            > > re
            >
            >
            > Hosted by http://all-ez.com/epigraphy.htm
            > Group Site : http://www.epigraphy.f2s.com
            > To unsubscribe from this group, although we hope
            > you stay and help us improve. First consider changing to daily
            digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Precolumbian_Inscriptions
            > if you must leave send an email to:
            > Precolumbian_Inscriptions-unsubscribe@y...
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject
          • michael white
            hi AMatre you are being needlessly argumentative here. you are over- reacting to a musing that is not about to happen. the officials in charge of that area
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 8, 2001
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              hi AMatre

              you are being needlessly argumentative here. you are over-
              reacting to a musing that is not about to happen. the officials in
              charge of that area are quite content with lake titicaca as it is,
              and are not about to lower its level or drain it. perhaps next
              century we will get a more accurate idea of what is hidden by the
              lake.
              plz reread the group description, and the rules of conduct in this
              forum. since there is no real threat to the ecological balance of
              this inland sea, further criticism and discussion is a distraction to
              the group.
              continue with meditation, you will profit from it. possibly later
              we may discuss metaphysics, but in a different forum unless it
              relates to these topics.
              there are several other topics and discussions ongoing, plz direct
              your comments to them.


              thanx
              sparky



              --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@y..., alamatre@y... wrote:
              > Let them eat cake mmm. Trash thousands of years of developed,
              unique
              > and interdependant lifewebs just because you as a techno-dominant
              > human feel they are in the way of your current curiosity. Where is
              the
              > metaphysics in that? Are you or are you not a 'sensitive'?
              > -AMatre
              >
            • AwenDawn@ap.net
              ... Since you are so interested in the number 4 maybe I should tell you the number 4 is the number of the goddess in all esoteric renditions and relationships
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 8, 2001
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                ---Once and for all Mike The figure on the Fuente Magna is female.
                Since you are so interested in the number 4 maybe I should tell you
                the number 4 is the number of the goddess in all esoteric renditions
                and relationships of the goddess. Mike you have said you do not
                see any goddess symbols in the Fuente Magna. Mike do you know what a
                goddess symbol could be?...,I do not think you have any Idea. Might I
                suggest some informitive reading. While it does not talk about goddess
                symbols specifically the book " The Alphabet Versus The Goddess"by
                Leonard Shlain " gives good insight as to why there is every reason to
                believe that the first creator was female in the belief systems of the
                first humans. This fact how ever; does not automatically mean these
                early societies were matriarchal. Awen "michael white" <infoplz@h...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                > hi clyde
                >
                > thanx you for the info clyde. have you and mario discussed the
                > seeming differences in your transliteration of the fm cuneiform? it
                > would appear that shamash was the sun god of sumeria, a male deity,
                > with a symbol of the solar disk with a four-pointed star within it.

                > we have noted the significance of the four displayed by the fingers
                > of the figure on the fm in previous discussions. to a casual
                > observer like myself, the shamash interpretation would seem to fit
                > better. cuneiform would be more likely from armenia to sumeria,
                with
                > the former more archaic than the latter. cabeza by rays on hat and
                > inclination of eyes seems solar oriented. plus its known there was
                a
                > temple of the sun on an island in titicaca. the inca perpetuated
                the
                > solar worship. im not qualified to dispute you, dr winters, merely
                > hoping to arrive at truth thru discussion. this link may be of
                > interest to some.
                >
                > http://solar-center.stanford.edu/folklore/folklore.html
                >
                > since peru and bolivia share control of lake titicaca, i suppose
                > there will never be an agreement to lower its level, much less drain
                > it. which will hinder science and knowledge, imho. ecology,
                > bureaucrats, and sceptics, frustrate me to no end.
                > we built a highway thru amazonia so clear-cut farmers could have
                > homesteads, and then were appalled when they did their thing with
                > burning the jungle away. duh!
                >
                >
                > regards
                > imho
              • AwenDawn@ap.net
                ... nAMASTE.n Precolumbian_Inscriptions@y..., mike white ... area. in 500 years, using the methods you prefer, very little, if anything, has
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 8, 2001
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                  ---MIKE, THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE LIKE THEIR LAKE THE WAY IT IS.
                  nAMASTE.n Precolumbian_Inscriptions@y..., "mike white" <infoplz@h...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > in three hours the creation of lake titicaca destroyed the whole
                  area. in 500 years, using the methods you prefer, very little, if
                  anything, has been discovered, about the civilization of tiwanaku.
                  birds have wings, let them find another wetland. the few aymara
                  subsistence farmers could easily be relocated, and be given a better
                  life than they presently scratch out of this arid plateau. besides,
                  lowering its level would not create the situation that you rant about.
                  current methods date the founding of the andean culture at 300bce.
                  do you prefer the status quo?
                  >
                  >
                  > imho
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: alamatre@y...
                  > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@y...
                  > Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 8:43 AM
                  > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: shamash
                  >
                  >
                  > Why on earth would anyone want to drain Titicaca? In three days it
                  > would totally devistate the entire ecological chain of being for
                  the
                  > whole region, instantly and permanently wink out thousands of
                  unique,
                  > endangered species in and out of the water. It would deprive whole
                  > networks of life, both animal and plant, which depend on that sole
                  > source of water in the high-desert.
                  >
                  > Extinction and collapse of the area's life forces, physical and
                  > metaphysical, would be devistating to the wild as well as domestic
                  > situation. What would such a massive, horrific project prove that
                  some
                  > underwater radar and a few scuba dives wouldnt accomplish?
                  >
                  > -AMatre
                  >
                  > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@y..., "michael white"
                  <infoplz@h...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > hi clyde
                  > >
                  > > thanx you for the info clyde. have you and mario discussed
                  the
                  > > seeming differences in your transliteration of the fm cuneiform?
                  it
                  > > would appear that shamash was the sun god of sumeria, a male
                  deity,
                  > > with a symbol of the solar disk with a four-pointed star within
                  it.
                  > > we have noted the significance of the four displayed by the
                  fingers
                  > > of the figure on the fm in previous discussions. to a casual
                  > > observer like myself, the shamash interpretation would seem to
                  fit
                  > > better. cuneiform would be more likely from armenia to sumeria,
                  > with
                  > > the former more archaic than the latter. cabeza by rays on hat
                  and
                  > > inclination of eyes seems solar oriented. plus its known there
                  was
                  > a
                  > > temple of the sun on an island in titicaca. the inca
                  perpetuated
                  > the
                  > > solar worship. im not qualified to dispute you, dr winters,
                  merely
                  > > hoping to arrive at truth thru discussion. this link may be of
                  > > interest to some.
                  > >
                  > > http://solar-center.stanford.edu/folklore/folklore.html
                  > >
                  > > since peru and bolivia share control of lake titicaca, i
                  suppose
                  > > there will never be an agreement to lower its level, much less
                  drain
                  > > it. which will hinder science and knowledge, imho. ecology,
                  > > bureaucrats, and sceptics, frustrate me to no end.
                  > > we built a highway thru amazonia so clear-cut farmers could
                  have
                  > > homesteads, and then were appalled when they did their thing
                  with
                  > > burning the jungle away. duh!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > re
                  >
                  >
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                • michael white
                  hi awen, carl, and friends the Sun has never been seriously considered a feminine deity, if such a thing could exist. it was i that mentioned the possible
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 9, 2001
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                    hi awen, carl, and friends

                    the Sun has never been seriously considered a feminine deity, if
                    such a thing could exist. it was i that mentioned the possible
                    connection of venus with shamash. venus was considered by popular
                    belief to emanate feminine principles. shamash was most likely not
                    venus, but the solar orb, occulting venus, imho.
                    some can look at a frog and see a goddess. throughout the ages
                    man had no problem making a representation of a female, if it was
                    intended. we have no reson to think that the aymara created the
                    fuented magna, or that the deity depicted or symbolized, represents
                    pachamama. where is this record so that i can educate myself, to
                    spare me this bashing?
                    at the same time find the record proving the existence of the
                    masses of incas necessary to conquer the millions of aymara and
                    quetua, within 200-300 years prior to the spanish conquest. then the
                    natives can continue paddling their reed bundles another 500 years,
                    and the 'experts' can continue their verbage of the late coming
                    incas, and recent founding of tiwanaku, without any dissent or
                    discussion from me. some of us have no pet theory to expound on, we
                    just seek the truth.


                    kr
                    imho
                  • AwenDawn@ap.net
                    ... goddess is not a pet theory. It so happens that the concept of creator goddess has been over looked for thousands of years do to other adgendas in
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 9, 2001
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                      ---Hi Mike, I hope I was not to verbose in my last post to you. The
                      goddess is not a pet theory. It so happens that the concept of creator
                      goddess has been over looked for thousands of years do to other
                      adgendas in political and religious fronts. WE did not look for the
                      feminine because it went against everything we were taught. I only
                      suggested to reading material for you and or anyone else because more
                      and more is being found that points to the importance of the goddess
                      in the beliefs of early man. It is also being found that the societies
                      with goddess based worship tended to be
                      peaceful and much less aggressive than the
                      blood thirsty and condeming male god. In Good Faith,
                      Awen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>columbian_Inscriptions@y
                      ..., "michael white" <infoplz@h...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > hi awen, carl, and friends
                      >
                      > the Sun has never been seriously considered a feminine deity, if
                      > such a thing could exist. it was i that mentioned the possible
                      > connection of venus with shamash. venus was considered by popular
                      > belief to emanate feminine principles. shamash was most likely not
                      > venus, but the solar orb, occulting venus, imho.
                      > some can look at a frog and see a goddess. throughout the ages
                      > man had no problem making a representation of a female, if it was
                      > intended. we have no reson to think that the aymara created the
                      > fuented magna, or that the deity depicted or symbolized, represents
                      > pachamama. where is this record so that i can educate myself, to
                      > spare me this bashing?
                      > at the same time find the record proving the existence of the
                      > masses of incas necessary to conquer the millions of aymara and
                      > quetua, within 200-300 years prior to the spanish conquest. then
                      the
                      > natives can continue paddling their reed bundles another 500 years,
                      > and the 'experts' can continue their verbage of the late coming
                      > incas, and recent founding of tiwanaku, without any dissent or
                      > discussion from me. some of us have no pet theory to expound on, we
                      > just seek the truth.
                      >
                      >
                      > kr
                      > imho
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