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tiwanaku

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  • michael white
    sadly the following is the conclusions of sparky only : think about it. almost every artifact found is associated with temples and worship. fm and cabeza are
    Message 1 of 26 , Jun 20, 2001
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      sadly the following is the conclusions of sparky only :


      think about it. almost every artifact found is associated with
      temples and worship. fm and cabeza are not indigenous to the
      americas, one from the middle east and the other from the far east.
      both are proofs of diffusion in very ancient times. both involved
      travel by sea in boats. if this diffusion happened within the last
      5,000 years, would not caral have been visited? isnt it a bit
      strange that the fm basin that surely crossed the atlantic ocean
      would end up on the west coast of south america? east coast of
      brasil would be more natural. unless the travel occurred in a time
      so remote that there was open water across central america,
      connecting the atlantic and pacific oceans. at such an early date as
      tiwanaku was built why would they choose a location over 14,000 feet
      elevation, when they had their choice of coastal valleys?
      it seems that there should be a scientific way to establish when
      the altiplano was uplifted, and whether gradual or rapid? the dating
      of seashells from multiple areas might tell the tale. this is the
      first and most important question to be answered concerning tiwanaku,
      imho. astro-physicists plotting the close approach of the moon,
      planets, comets and asteroids - may be where the ultimate proof comes
      from. a careful assessment of the brine should reveal lake
      titicaca's affinity with the ocean within the past 50,000 years.
      if i understood correctly, in the northern hemispherre the
      deity 'nut' would be worshipped. likewise, below the equator they
      would worship 'neith', as goddess of the stars of the firmament. it
      has a mystical relationship to enlightenment. there was a remote
      period when the poles were reversed, and the coast of peru and chile
      were the western coast of lemuria. [blavatsky]
      the most exciting archaeology in the world is at tiwanaku. is
      there any reliable proof at all to support the dates assigned to it?
      as soon as these erroneous dates are abandoned, then serious research
      will begin with plenty of funding.
      the inca may well have been asians, and were there much longer
      than supposed. inca mummy dna may still exist deep below the church
      over the sun temple, also there would be connections to tunnels.
      early chroniclers report roads sprang from cuzco like rays from the
      sun, in spokes. imho


      kr
      imho
    • Chris Patenaude
      Hmmm, I was of the idea that the bowl could easily have been inscribed right here in the western hemisphere...just by someone who had learned the other
      Message 2 of 26 , Jun 20, 2001
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        Hmmm, I was of the idea that the bowl could easily have been inscribed
        right here in the western hemisphere...just by someone who had learned
        the other scripts. Why do we keep thinking "They" always came "Here"?
        Could not a Native scholar have traveled to other lands, learned of
        many things and returned to carve the bowl here? Or even easier, could
        not a foriegn literate have decided to stay behind as his ship left
        and trained numerous new students how to read and write in his
        language(s)? Or he/she theirs? How else does one account for the
        Native as well as foriegn scripts? Someone who knew all three had to
        be the inscriber. My own bets are that he/she was Native.

        Like the Kensington Runestone...the greywacke of the Runestone was
        pre-dressed by a knowledgeable mason, squaring up a glacier erratic.
        The inscription is proposed to have been carved by a talented,
        literate calligrapher, but one who had never been schooled in using a
        stone-chisel.

        In like manner, the bowl itself may have been fashioned by a practiced
        hand somewhere and inscribed by a different, tri-lingual person
        elsewhere... Quartizite, such as we have discussed it, varies widely
        in texture, color, grain and mineral content world wide... Would it be
        so hard to find the quarry that uniquely produced such a large block
        of it...if it indeed is a local creation? By using the alphabets,
        would it be possible to track down the geology of it by searching the
        MiddleEast if indeed it comes from THERE? Musing over the
        possibilities is all. I would not want to insist it is from ANYWHERE
        until the matching matrix is found.

        Bests, Chris


        --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@y..., "michael white" <infoplz@h...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > sadly the following is the conclusions of sparky only :
        >
        >
        > think about it. almost every artifact found is associated with
        > temples and worship. fm and cabeza are not indigenous to the
        > americas, one from the middle east and the other from the far east.
        > both are proofs of diffusion in very ancient times. both involved
        > travel by sea in boats. if this diffusion happened within the last
        > 5,000 years, would not caral have been visited? isnt it a bit
        > strange that the fm basin that surely crossed the atlantic ocean
        > would end up on the west coast of south america? east coast of
        > brasil would be more natural. unless the travel occurred in a time
        > so remote that there was open water across central america,
        > connecting the atlantic and pacific oceans. at such an early date
        as
        > tiwanaku was built why would they choose a location over 14,000 feet
        > elevation, when they had their choice of coastal valleys?
        > it seems that there should be a scientific way to establish when
        > the altiplano was uplifted, and whether gradual or rapid? the
        dating
        > of seashells from multiple areas might tell the tale. this is the
        > first and most important question to be answered concerning
        tiwanaku,
        > imho. astro-physicists plotting the close approach of the moon,
        > planets, comets and asteroids - may be where the ultimate proof
        comes
        > from. a careful assessment of the brine should reveal lake
        > titicaca's affinity with the ocean within the past 50,000 years.
        > if i understood correctly, in the northern hemispherre the
        > deity 'nut' would be worshipped. likewise, below the equator they
        > would worship 'neith', as goddess of the stars of the firmament. it
        > has a mystical relationship to enlightenment. there was a remote
        > period when the poles were reversed, and the coast of peru and chile
        > were the western coast of lemuria. [blavatsky]
        > the most exciting archaeology in the world is at tiwanaku. is
        > there any reliable proof at all to support the dates assigned to it?
        > as soon as these erroneous dates are abandoned, then serious
        research
        > will begin with plenty of funding.
        > the inca may well have been asians, and were there much longer
        > than supposed. inca mummy dna may still exist deep below the church
        > over the sun temple, also there would be connections to tunnels.
        > early chroniclers report roads sprang from cuzco like rays from the
        > sun, in spokes.
      • michael white
        concerning the link to the page bashing non-conforming opinions on the age of tiwanaku. the article was very slanted and narrow- minded. they can make
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 28 9:12 PM
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          concerning the link to the page bashing non-conforming opinions on
          the age of tiwanaku. the article was very slanted and narrow-
          minded. they can make hundreds of self-serving tests and
          investigations to support the status quo, but the bottom line that
          they fail to mention is that the site is less than 6-10 percent
          excavated. again, they are using ink, not elbow grease - get a
          shovel if you want to know the truth. c-14 tests are meaningless if
          the samples are unrepresentative of the information sought. its like
          dating the great pyramid from charcoal found nearby. which has been
          done and quoted widely to support a recent dating there. when
          closely examined these proofs crumble away. they were based on an
          opinion of some 'expert', then parroted by the rest, in professional
          courtesy.
          if the site continues to yield artifacts millennias older than the
          horizon fixed for it, revise the horizon! dont try to invent far-
          fetched scenarios to keep an outdated notion.
          to my friends, if any remain, im in midst of divorce, and my
          patience is rather thin.


          kr
          mike
        • Paul Troemner
          Mike, I agree there is much to be found yet in the Tiwanaku site(s) and area. It will be interesting to see if it will all classify to the same culture under
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 29 5:24 PM
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            Mike,

            I agree there is much to be found yet in the Tiwanaku
            site(s) and area. It will be interesting to see if
            it will all classify to the same culture under a
            continuous timeline.

            I've always kind of wondered about
            Tiwanaku/Teotihuacan/Tijuana, and if there are any
            etymologies available for these placenames. I believe
            Teotihuacan is glossed as "the place where gods were
            made." The others I am unsure.

            Sorry to hear about your situation. Be sure to eat
            your vegetables and get some regular exercise (like
            jogging) to burn some of the stress off.

            Paul


            --- michael white <infoplz@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > ... they fail to mention is that the site is less
            than
            > 6-10 percent
            > excavated. again, they are using ink, not elbow
            > grease - get a
            > shovel if you want to know the truth... they
            > were based on an
            > opinion of some 'expert', then parroted by the rest,
            > in professional
            > courtesy.
            > if the site continues to yield artifacts
            > millennias older than the
            > horizon fixed for it, revise the horizon! dont try
            > to invent far-
            > fetched scenarios to keep an outdated notion.
            > to my friends, if any remain, im in midst of
            > divorce, and my
            > patience is rather thin.
            >
            >
            > kr
            > mike


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          • michael white
            personally, ive had a hunch that Teotihuacan and Tiwanaku were kindred sites. i believe cayce where he said that one empire included from arizona to bolivia
            Message 5 of 26 , Aug 30 2:32 AM
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              personally, ive had a hunch that Teotihuacan and Tiwanaku were
              kindred sites. i believe cayce where he said that one empire
              included from arizona to bolivia for a while, called og. i think
              both were ancient and abandoned before the maya entered yucatan from
              peru in 3100 bce. imho
              sorry for my rudeness, my confidence on tiwanaku's age makes me
              impatient that others fail to see thru the bs. examining such a
              small percentage of the site is like describing an elephant after
              seeing and feeling its tail, and calling it a snake.
              i came to my conclusions on tiwanaku independently of these other
              non-conformists. david and john, im glad some are not accepting
              these dates for tiwanaku as gospel, without questioning them. i
              really thought that i did the whole group a service by asking
              bernardo the question that begged to be asked. if these two items
              [cabeza and fm]were found near the surface, consider what may be
              discovered 25 feet down. many will have proverbial egg on their
              faces.
              good advice paul thanx


              regards
              mike



              --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@y..., Paul Troemner <troemner@y...>
              wrote:
              > Mike,
              >
              > I agree there is much to be found yet in the Tiwanaku
              > site(s) and area. It will be interesting to see if
              > it will all classify to the same culture under a
              > continuous timeline.
              >
              > I've always kind of wondered about
              > Tiwanaku/Teotihuacan/Tijuana, and if there are any
              > etymologies available for these placenames. I believe
              > Teotihuacan is glossed as "the place where gods were
              > made." The others I am unsure.
              >
              > Sorry to hear about your situation. Be sure to eat
              > your vegetables and get some regular exercise (like
              > jogging) to burn some of the stress off.
              >
              > Paul
              >
              >
              > --- michael white <infoplz@h...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > ... they fail to mention is that the site is less
              > than
              > > 6-10 percent
              > > excavated. again, they are using ink, not elbow
              > > grease - get a
              > > shovel if you want to know the truth... they
              > > were based on an
              > > opinion of some 'expert', then parroted by the rest,
              > > in professional
              > > courtesy.
              > > if the site continues to yield artifacts
              > > millennias older than the
              > > horizon fixed for it, revise the horizon! dont try
              > > to invent far-
              > > fetched scenarios to keep an outdated notion.
              > > to my friends, if any remain, im in midst of
              > > divorce, and my
              > > patience is rather thin.
              > >
              > >
              > > kr
              > > mike
              >
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
              Messenger
              > http://im.yahoo.com
            • Moby Doc
              Hy Mike; This is not a new theory...on what the Spanish called the Fortress ...those Water Towers the Spanish destroyed could have held cooling water for
              Message 6 of 26 , Aug 3 12:15 PM
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                 Hy Mike;
                    This is not a new theory...on what the Spanish
                   called the 'Fortress'...those 'Water Towers' the
                   Spanish destroyed could have held 'cooling' water
                   for the 'Engines' ...'Machinery' ...'Atom-regenerators'
                   ...'Aeon-generators'...'Hydraulic-machinery' ...which  was 
                  needed...to be kept cool -/- (imho) I believe there is
                  a very large (space/vehicle) buried in the 'Fortress)...
                  a 'Magnetometer's could prove or disprove this theory ...
                   would it not ...I have no spare 'cash'...so I hope a 'idea'
                  or two will help ...-/- It could be the perfect place to hide
                  large S/S ...where every one could see it ...if they knew
                  what was there ...beneath the ground ....^!*
                   Lots of 'luck' whoever checks it out "
                 
                          Pat/Moby
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                   the ruins of tiwanaku are over 90 percent unexcavated.  since the extent of the city is unknown, the figure is probably over 95 percent.  Why the inka did not use the people to uncover these ruins is an even greater mystery?  modern man has had 500 years to dig and discover his past, but has found other things to do.   we continue in the dark ages until it is done.  from the little portion that is exposed it seems to show that this is the oldest city on earth. 
                   in the writings about tiwanaku there is a conflict.  it concerns the amount of rain that falls in the area.  one passage states that the pyramid and some of the other structures were covered by andesite granite, and it was so weathered by exposure to heavy rains, as to be almost destroyed.  this stone is very hard, and would take tens of thousands of years of heavy tropical rains to weather that much.  [6-7 mohs]   strangely, the authors later say that very little rain now falls on the altiplano.   this enigma should be studied, because it seems to support a great age for tiwanaku, and that the clmate has changed drastically since the city was founded. 
                   the large pyramid of tiwanaku, like the cyclopean ruins above cuzco, are said to contain hydraulic engineering.  nobody knows much about this.  im not sure if the fluid used was water, or oil.   the whole world would be awe-struck if it turned out to be oil for a lighthouse, like pharos of alexandria !  
                   we shall be dead before these things are discovered.  it is up to future generations to investigate these mysteries.  our current theories will be the butt of jokes, as we do the flat earth believers of the middle ages.  it will appear incongruous that we had such technologies, but held to such stupid theories, and were satisfied with such a short history of mankind. 
                   yahoo will cease to archive attached images and files in a few days.  so anyone that has uploaded any of importance, plz assist me in rescuing them by uploading them to our group files.  on 8/8 all the message archives will have the attachments deleted, and unrecoverable.   
                 
                 
                 


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              • Moby Doc
                further to last message Hy Mike; With YA-WHO doing their delete thingy 8/8...if pictures were needed ...will you be allowed to send them person to person
                Message 7 of 26 , Aug 3 12:47 PM
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                       further to last message
                   
                   
                  Hy Mike;
                      With "YA-WHO" doing their delete thingy  8/8...if pictures were
                     needed ...will you be allowed to send them 'person to person' or
                      'ist zis verboten' excuse the bad "Saxon/Englessy"
                   
                                      Pat/Mobydoc  
                • mike white
                  the ruins of tiwanaku are over 90 percent unexcavated. since the extent of the city is unknown, the figure is probably over 95 percent. Why the inka did not
                  Message 8 of 26 , Aug 3 4:26 PM
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                       the ruins of tiwanaku are over 90 percent unexcavated.  since the extent of the city is unknown, the figure is probably over 95 percent.  Why the inka did not use the people to uncover these ruins is an even greater mystery?  modern man has had 500 years to dig and discover his past, but has found other things to do.   we continue in the dark ages until it is done.  from the little portion that is exposed it seems to show that this is the oldest city on earth. 
                       in the writings about tiwanaku there is a conflict.  it concerns the amount of rain that falls in the area.  one passage states that the pyramid and some of the other structures were covered by andesite granite, and it was so weathered by exposure to heavy rains, as to be almost destroyed.  this stone is very hard, and would take tens of thousands of years of heavy tropical rains to weather that much.  [6-7 mohs]   strangely, the authors later say that very little rain now falls on the altiplano.   this enigma should be studied, because it seems to support a great age for tiwanaku, and that the clmate has changed drastically since the city was founded. 
                       the large pyramid of tiwanaku, like the cyclopean ruins above cuzco, are said to contain hydraulic engineering.  nobody knows much about this.  im not sure if the fluid used was water, or oil.   the whole world would be awe-struck if it turned out to be oil for a lighthouse, like pharos of alexandria !  
                       we shall be dead before these things are discovered.  it is up to future generations to investigate these mysteries.  our current theories will be the butt of jokes, as we do the flat earth believers of the middle ages.  it will appear incongruous that we had such technologies, but held to such stupid theories, and were satisfied with such a short history of mankind. 
                       yahoo will cease to archive attached images and files in a few days.  so anyone that has uploaded any of importance, plz assist me in rescuing them by uploading them to our group files.  on 8/8 all the message archives will have the attachments deleted, and unrecoverable.   
                     
                     
                     
                  • mike white
                    assuming that a high civilization selected the site for tiwanaku at its present elevation to build their great city - a very unlikely case to be sure. where
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 8, 2004
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                         assuming that a high civilization selected the site for tiwanaku at its present elevation to build their great city - a very unlikely case to be sure.  where are the quarries that show evidence of this large quantity of stones having been removed?  if the quarry cannot be found we must reject this notion out of hand. 
                         the experts contend that the salt content of titicaca was leached out of the surrounding mountains, and accumulated due to evaporation.  have they tested the minerals in the mountains nearby to see if this is probable?  i think not.  if their theory was correct, then the higher shorelines should bear evidence of fresher water - yet the reverse is true, these higher terraces have traces of seaweed residues.   the buiding stones should be tested for salt concentrations.  within the city are found representations of sea horses and flying fish, things one would expect to be found in a seaport, not over two miles above sealevel.  there are dozens of pictures of extinct toxodons found, plus their fossils can be found near the surface in the vicinity, yet we are told the city reached its classic age close to 1200 ce.  how can they make such foolish statements?  
                        
                       
                      Kind regards,
                      Mike White
                      http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
                       
                       
                    • dprmexico
                      There are not many big stones. Those where moved on small raft in canals in the rain seasons. TiWaNaKu is mostly a civilisation of big holes in the ground.
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 22, 2005
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                        There are not many big stones.

                        Those where moved on small raft in canals in the rain seasons.

                        TiWaNaKu is mostly a civilisation of big holes in the ground.

                        Not like the Aztec and Egytion which where building Up In the sky.
                        It ia warm there.

                        If you go in the hi and very cold plateau (the altiplano) you will
                        understand that excavations are better protection against the wind.


                        It is very impressive to see as a civilisation but very different
                        than athers,


                        FINALLY reemmber that the These peaple where following other much
                        older civilisation.

                        There are many remains around of develop society and cultuyre that
                        are very very old

                        It supports the argumenyt that peaple came to the Amerucas from many
                        places and in many waves of explorers.

                        Yours

                        DPR


                        --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                        <infoplz@c...> wrote:
                        >
                        > assuming that a high civilization selected the site for tiwanaku
                        at its present elevation to build their great city - a very unlikely
                        case to be sure. where are the quarries that show evidence of this
                        large quantity of stones having been removed? if the quarry cannot
                        be found we must reject this notion out of hand.
                      • dprmexico
                        ... the extent of the city is unknown, the figure is probably over 95 percent. Why the inka did not use the people to uncover these ruins is an even greater
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jan 28, 2005
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                          --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                          <sparky@a...> wrote:
                          >
                          > the ruins of tiwanaku are over 90 percent unexcavated. since
                          the extent of the city is unknown, the figure is probably over 95
                          percent. Why the inka did not use the people to uncover these ruins
                          is an even greater mystery?

                          Inca did not care about other people.

                          Same as most of the world today.


                          I could not find any reference on the site to the AmAru Portal.


                          http://www.physics.leidenuniv.nl/userwebs/ruud/xternal/south_america/g
                          allery_peru_stone_constructions_1_files/aramu2.htm

                          Next person to visit (Mike) could maybe collect some data...


                          Salutations
                        • mike white
                          try looking for amaru maru. there are no definitive proofs it was a portal, but its massive megalithic construction is my attraction. if only one could find
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 28, 2005
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                               try looking for amaru maru.  there are no definitive proofs it was a portal, but its massive megalithic construction is my attraction.  if only one could find the entry.  legends connect it with sages and initiations.  its along the northern shore of titicaca i think.  some tour agents tout it as a portal or star gate.  i want to see it if i can in the future trip. 
                             
                             
                            mike 
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: dprmexico
                            Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 4:15 AM
                            Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Portal_Aramu_Muru Re: tiwanaku





                            --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                            <sparky@a...> wrote:
                            >
                            >    the ruins of tiwanaku are over 90 percent unexcavated.  since
                            the extent of the city is unknown, the figure is probably over 95
                            percent.  Why the inka did not use the people to uncover these ruins
                            is an even greater mystery? 

                            Inca did not care about other people.

                            Same as most of the world today.


                            I could not find any reference on the site to the AmAru Portal.


                            http://www.physics.leidenuniv.nl/userwebs/ruud/xternal/south_america/g
                            allery_peru_stone_constructions_1_files/aramu2.htm

                            Next person to visit (Mike) could maybe collect some data...


                            Salutations





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                            To unsubscribe from this group, although we hope
                            you stay and help us improve.  First consider changing to daily digest, or no mail - web only, visit main and edit membership :
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                          • dprmexico
                            I do not belive in those legends. They are invention of tour operators. I do belive that in the old days somebody established a civilisation in the area and
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 28, 2005
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                              I do not belive in those legends. They are invention of tour
                              operators.

                              I do belive that in the old days somebody established a civilisation
                              in the area and did someting (What? i do not know.)

                              Once someone has seen macchu pichu that person forget about Mysteries.

                              It is only a matter of sweat and dedication.

                              Still this is one place where I have never been and where I will
                              probably never return (My heart and lungs are gone).

                              There may be marking around there that would give us some clue.

                              The problems is that there are thousand of sites like that in the
                              Andes Mountains. The current governments (all of them) do not have
                              bugets to preserve these places.

                              So they are being forgotten and many times they are used as quarries
                              by today's inhabitant.
                              Salutations





                              --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                              <infoplz@c...> wrote:
                              >
                              > try looking for amaru maru. there are no definitive proofs it
                              was a portal, but its massive megalithic construction is my
                              attraction. if only one could find the entry. legends connect it
                              with sages and initiations. its along the northern shore of titicaca
                              i think. some tour agents tout it as a portal or star gate. i want
                              to see it if i can in the future trip.
                              >
                              >
                              > mike
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: dprmexico
                              > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 4:15 AM
                              > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Portal_Aramu_Muru Re:
                              tiwanaku
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                              > <sparky@a...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > the ruins of tiwanaku are over 90 percent unexcavated.
                              since
                              > the extent of the city is unknown, the figure is probably over 95
                              > percent. Why the inka did not use the people to uncover these
                              ruins
                              > is an even greater mystery?
                              >
                              > Inca did not care about other people.
                              >
                              > Same as most of the world today.
                              >
                              >
                              > I could not find any reference on the site to the AmAru Portal.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              http://www.physics.leidenuniv.nl/userwebs/ruud/xternal/south_america/g
                              > allery_peru_stone_constructions_1_files/aramu2.htm
                              >
                              > Next person to visit (Mike) could maybe collect some data...
                              >
                              >
                              > Salutations
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                            • mike white
                              i found some good info on surveys of tiwanaku on this link. seems to be an ebook. choice of pdf or html.
                              Message 14 of 26 , Dec 23, 2005
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                                   i found some good info on surveys of tiwanaku on this link.  seems to be an ebook.  choice of pdf or html. 
                                 
                                 
                                   author assumes denser population and tiwanaku influence, in areas of the best soil.  i think its broader than that.  we must take trade and defence into consideration.  along key waterways, and roads, thru valleys and such, might be expected to have dense settlements. 
                                   nazca and the southern deserts, have much tiwanaku influence. 
                                   tiwanaku pottery and styles are found in the coastal valleys.  i strongly think the accepted dating of tiwanaku to be one of the greatest discrepancies, on major sites.   all should read of the tiwanaku seen before the spanish.  statues so real looking, it was astounding, lined the walkways.  some stood in everyday poses, others at table, glasses lifted.  art of the highest order, recognized and preserved by the inka.  all lost to treasure hunters. 
                                   we need to ask ourselves, why would this great tiwanakan culture, with cyclopean buildings, be dated to a time period, when most of the world was in the dark ages of ignorance?  the size of the massive stones, make them cyclopean, but this architecture was beyond all of the other cyclopean works.  most are roughly cut and fitted big stones, not carefully planned public works, of great accuracy, like tiwanaku, and the fortress above cuzco.  it all leads me to think a much earlier age, possibly a high culture of giants.  who really believes these massive stones were cut and fitted circa 800 ce, or even the 1200 bce some give? 
                                   the pokotia statues have rock cuts from the original, and a much later graffiti, that helps us give it a good relative date.  the later script appears to be about 5,000 years old.  it has a light patina in the grooves im told.  the original cut surfaces have a dark patina, many times thicker, in the order of tens of thousands of years ago. 
                                   the pukara works also appear to be much older than given. 
                                   i invited the previous author to join us.  he is an expert on the andean cultures, and inka metalurgy. 
                                 
                                 
                                   it speaks of a petroglyph that seems to represent an outline of a nearby sunken court that is mostly covered today.  erected by inca archaeologists? 
                                 
                                 
                                Kind regards,
                                Mike White
                                http://all-ez.com/yahoo-groups.htm
                                 
                                a man might disbelieve something, and prove himself correct. 
                                another man, believing, caused it to be given to him.
                              • patcobb
                                Hy Mike ; All I can say Mike is that you are a Wizard with your finds... The fortress towers above Cuzco were water reservoir s ... the Spanish destoyed them
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 23, 2005
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                                    Hy Mike ;
                                  All I can say Mike is that you are a Wizard with your finds...
                                   The fortress towers above Cuzco were 'water reservoir's ...
                                    the Spanish destoyed them out of fear ...mercenary men ...
                                    mercenary  brains ...
                                    But  would really like to do the tunnels ...under Cuzco ...
                                   
                                                    Pat...
                                • mike white
                                  the author dr owen, and i, have different opinions, but i hope to share perspectives with him. he has carbon dating to support fairly recent dates for
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Dec 24, 2005
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                                       the author dr owen, and i, have different opinions, but i hope to share perspectives with him.  he has carbon dating to support fairly recent dates for tiwanaku 4 and 5 expansions.  assuming they are accurate, we may have earlier relics buried deeper.  without emotional debating, perhaps we can learn something.  i found a second addy for him, after the first failed.  spammers ruin so much for honest researchers, trying to share ideas. 
                                       thanks pat for your support. 
                                     
                                    mike
                                     
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: patcobb
                                    Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 2:48 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] tiwanaku

                                      Hy Mike ;
                                    All I can say Mike is that you are a Wizard with your finds...
                                     The fortress towers above Cuzco were 'water reservoir's ...
                                      the Spanish destoyed them out of fear ...mercenary men ...
                                      mercenary  brains ...
                                      But  would really like to do the tunnels ...under Cuzco ...
                                     
                                                      Pat...
                                  • mike white
                                    sitchin s writings were much like von daniken, seeing space ports all over. i failed to come to the same conclusions from his words. pat s link did interest
                                    Message 18 of 26 , Jun 19, 2008
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                                          sitchin's writings were much like von daniken, seeing space ports all over.  i failed to come to the same conclusions from his words. 
                                         pat's link did interest me, and returned my attention to the mystery of tiwanaku, that draws me.  it makes me want to buy poznansky's book, whatever the cost.  if i do, i may go further than just a review, i may scan and post the entire volume.  it is clearly suppressed material, and this great man spent a lifetime of study at tiwanaku.  his work deserves to be studied.  i do have cieza de leon's book. 
                                         poznansky says the site was occupied twice, first by mongolians, later by middle-eastern caucasians.  i suggest the term 'mongolian' was incorrect, he should have said the red race, or native americans. 
                                         the occupation by the whites is most interesting.  the recent find of the bowl with cuneiform supports his claim.  their writing was also placed as grafitti on the pukara monoliths.  i never realized they occupied the site for an extended period.  this causes me to think that tiwanaku was at sealevel perhaps until 2950 bce.  it would be surprising if semitic seafarers even discovered tiwanaku that far inland, and raised to 12,000 ft in elevation, but to live there, staggers the imagination.  it seems very unlikely.  it sure makes me think that the strait thru panama remained open, and tiwanaku was at sealevel until close to 3000 bce.  given the date for caral, it seems impossible, until we remember that the ranges of the andes rose at different times, and the central and eastern ranges rose after the west.  its possible that the sea reached inland to a lower tiwanaku.  the southern flank of the andes has evidence of a late uplift.  we have man-made nazca lines at the bottom of salt lakes.  so we must extend the date for cultured man back to geological time of mya, or conclude a much more recent uplift.  this new line of thinking is intriguing.  i will consider the chances of it being true, and where the sea reached inward.  recall that puma punku i believe is south of tiwanaku, and not west as one might suppose a port would have been. 
                                       
                                      mike
                                       
                                       
                                    • mike white
                                      i just recalled that research tells that the amazon had earlier flowed both ways from the central highlands. in order for it to have flowed west the andes
                                      Message 19 of 26 , Jun 19, 2008
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                                           i just recalled that research tells that the amazon had earlier flowed both ways from the central highlands.   in order for it to have flowed west the andes must have been lower on the east, with an outlet thru them to the sea.  if this scenario existed as recently as 2950 bce, the semitic people may have approached tiwanaku along that route from the east, and panama could have been closed. 
                                         
                                        mike
                                         
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 7:45 PM
                                        Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] tiwanaku

                                         
                                            sitchin's writings were much like von daniken, seeing space ports all over.  i failed to come to the same conclusions from his words. 
                                           pat's link did interest me, and returned my attention to the mystery of tiwanaku, that draws me.  it makes me want to buy poznansky's book, whatever the cost.  if i do, i may go further than just a review, i may scan and post the entire volume.  it is clearly suppressed material, and this great man spent a lifetime of study at tiwanaku.  his work deserves to be studied.  i do have cieza de leon's book. 
                                           poznansky says the site was occupied twice, first by mongolians, later by middle-eastern caucasians.  i suggest the term 'mongolian' was incorrect, he should have said the red race, or native americans. 
                                           the occupation by the whites is most interesting.  the recent find of the bowl with cuneiform supports his claim.  their writing was also placed as grafitti on the pukara monoliths.  i never realized they occupied the site for an extended period.  this causes me to think that tiwanaku was at sealevel perhaps until 2950 bce.  it would be surprising if semitic seafarers even discovered tiwanaku that far inland, and raised to 12,000 ft in elevation, but to live there, staggers the imagination.  it seems very unlikely.  it sure makes me think that the strait thru panama remained open, and tiwanaku was at sealevel until close to 3000 bce.  given the date for caral, it seems impossible, until we remember that the ranges of the andes rose at different times, and the central and eastern ranges rose after the west.  its possible that the sea reached inland to a lower tiwanaku.  the southern flank of the andes has evidence of a late uplift.  we have man-made nazca lines at the bottom of salt lakes.  so we must extend the date for cultured man back to geological time of mya, or conclude a much more recent uplift.  this new line of thinking is intriguing.  i will consider the chances of it being true, and where the sea reached inward.  recall that puma punku i believe is south of tiwanaku, and not west as one might suppose a port would have been. 
                                         
                                        mike
                                         
                                         



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                                      • mike white
                                        this would explain the mystery of only the upper reaches of the amazon being named after king solomon. ive often wondered why the entire river had not born
                                        Message 20 of 26 , Jun 19, 2008
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                                             this would explain the mystery of only the upper reaches of the amazon being named after king solomon.  ive often wondered why the entire river had not born the name, now i begin to see.  they could have navigated the orinoco to the rio negro, then ride the current of the upper amazon to tiwanaku. 
                                           
                                          mike
                                           
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:04 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] tiwanaku

                                           
                                             i just recalled that research tells that the amazon had earlier flowed both ways from the central highlands.   in order for it to have flowed west the andes must have been lower on the east, with an outlet thru them to the sea.  if this scenario existed as recently as 2950 bce, the semitic people may have approached tiwanaku along that route from the east, and panama could have been closed. 
                                           
                                          mike
                                           
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 7:45 PM
                                          Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] tiwanaku

                                           
                                              sitchin's writings were much like von daniken, seeing space ports all over.  i failed to come to the same conclusions from his words. 
                                             pat's link did interest me, and returned my attention to the mystery of tiwanaku, that draws me.  it makes me want to buy poznansky's book, whatever the cost.  if i do, i may go further than just a review, i may scan and post the entire volume.  it is clearly suppressed material, and this great man spent a lifetime of study at tiwanaku.  his work deserves to be studied.  i do have cieza de leon's book. 
                                             poznansky says the site was occupied twice, first by mongolians, later by middle-eastern caucasians.  i suggest the term 'mongolian' was incorrect, he should have said the red race, or native americans. 
                                             the occupation by the whites is most interesting.  the recent find of the bowl with cuneiform supports his claim.  their writing was also placed as grafitti on the pukara monoliths.  i never realized they occupied the site for an extended period.  this causes me to think that tiwanaku was at sealevel perhaps until 2950 bce.  it would be surprising if semitic seafarers even discovered tiwanaku that far inland, and raised to 12,000 ft in elevation, but to live there, staggers the imagination.  it seems very unlikely.  it sure makes me think that the strait thru panama remained open, and tiwanaku was at sealevel until close to 3000 bce.  given the date for caral, it seems impossible, until we remember that the ranges of the andes rose at different times, and the central and eastern ranges rose after the west.  its possible that the sea reached inland to a lower tiwanaku.  the southern flank of the andes has evidence of a late uplift.  we have man-made nazca lines at the bottom of salt lakes.  so we must extend the date for cultured man back to geological time of mya, or conclude a much more recent uplift.  this new line of thinking is intriguing.  i will consider the chances of it being true, and where the sea reached inward.  recall that puma punku i believe is south of tiwanaku, and not west as one might suppose a port would have been. 
                                           
                                          mike
                                           
                                           



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                                        • mike white
                                          i reviewed poznansky s words, the few given online. his book is still too costly, $215 for a tattered copy. he confirms what other sources gave, that the city
                                          Message 21 of 26 , Sep 22, 2008
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                                               i reviewed poznansky's words, the few given online.  his book is still too costly, $215 for a tattered copy. 
                                               he confirms what other sources gave, that the city was thrice built.  actually, building was begun in three periods, widely separated in time, with no completion each time. 
                                               the first period he says was primitive, using mostly red sandstone.  yet, he says that puma punko was began in the early stage.  this seems contradictory, for the blocks are huge, precision cut, with metal fasteners, unless the best work was done later. 
                                               after a long lapse of time, the second period of building began.  they used hard volcanic andesite blocks.  mystics say the andesite first appeared circa 50,000 bce when the ring of fire was very active, and lemuria sank, or most of it.  they retouched the earlier giant statues, adding inscriptions.  apparently, he refers to the crudely etched grafitti found on the lower part of the statues, that seems to have mideastern writing.  he says the third phase was more precise and better than the two before it.  i had expected the quality and size of the blocks to get worse over time.  its unclear if the final work was by the inca or not.  bronze appears in the third period.  the standard unit of measure was the 'loka' of
                                            161 cm 3.25 mm.  the metal bolts were added in the third phase.  he says the 'sun door' was built in the last phase.  its as though a disaster happened during each phase that prevented the work from being finished.  despite the mideastern diffusion, the astronomy and astrology was much different than the chaldean.   poznansky considered the kalasasaya temple as the great calendar, not the sun gate as do some others.   the megalithic builders built no foundation, causing their buildings to collapse in time. 
                                               [ the three phases of building may conform to the three ages of disaster, 50,000 bce, 26,000 bce, and 10,000 bce.  its puzzling, for if the work began after each disaster, why was it left uncompleted?  the golden age began with the first disaster, silver with the second, bronze with the third, imho. ] 
                                               [ we need to consider that the golden age was spiritually more perfect.  as spirituality went downhill, the technical ability of the left brain improved.  thus, the construction of the buildings could improve, as man himself declined in size and perfection.  ] 
                                               its apparent that poleshifts did separate each stage of building, for the astronomical alignments and marks were not used by the following builders, who constructed new ones.  consider the ages of time between occupation of tiwanaku, 24,000 years between 1st and 2nd, and 16,000 years between 2nd and third phase. 
                                                imho the mideast people did not do any major work at tiwanaku.  more likely atlanteans fleeing from each disaster aided the work.  strange they had forewarning of their homeland disaster, but didnt anticipate the disaster to hit tiwanaku.  hard to say what caused the work to stop, masses could have revolted, or an invasion happened.  the inca could have been involved in the 3rd phase.  the americas may have began the bronze age ahead of the rest of the world.  they had declined almost to the stone age when the iron age spaniards arrived. 
                                               the sun door was part of the sun temple, so was part of the calendar. 
                                               originally there were symbolic inscriptions at tiwanaku.  hard to say how much because the blocks are now set in churches and railway bridges. 
                                               im of the opinion that the earth has turned 180 degrees since work began at tiwanaku, former north is now south.  its amazing that its so near 180 that they figure the present alignment was planned.  i dont think poznansky factored this in.  overall, i greatly respect his work.  peer pressure caused him to not say all he knew, i suspect.  he said it was
                                            12,000 years old i believe, but that was likely the date of the 3rd phase. 
                                               loka of 2nd period = 1m 63cm   161.51 the meter of the 3rd period
                                               the sun temple kalasasaya was built precisely on the astronomical meridian. 
                                            the obliquity of the ecliptic has shifted 18 angular minutes since the 3rd phase was built. 
                                               15,000 years B.C.

                                            This figure would constitute the probable age of Tihuanacu in the "Second Period" and some what less in the "Third Period."

                                            1. It is evident beyond a doubt that the inhabitants of Tihuanacu knew animals now extinct, which they reproduced faithfully by stylizing them on their ceramics and other plastic works. This fauna possibly disappeared at the end of the last period of glaciation on the Altiplano, as is shown by the alluvial strata.

                                            2. Certain human crania found in the deepest strata of Tihuanacu, especially one which is located in the Museo Tihuanacu of La Paz (marked No. 1) and reproduced on the corresponding plate of Vol. Ill, are completely fossilized (100) and show primitive signs, particularly those which were found in a sort of Löss and in the reddish clay of that region.

                                            4. Another of the factors which influenced human development in Tihuanacu is the climate. Had this metropolis been built at an elevation above sea level like that found today, it would have had an inclement climate and one unsuitable for human life, as is seen in that of the present time, with its atmospheric phenomena so injurious to the development of agriculture and cattle raising. Under such circumstances it would never have attained the extremely dense population that it had in past epochs. The climatical cingulum has changed from the period of the apogee of this civilization to the present time. The northern part rose and the southern part suffered a great fall. We consider this matter in greater detail in another of our works. (102)

                                            5. The fauna and flora changed radically from the epoch of splendor to our time. This can be proven by the remains of marine fauna found at the present time in Lake Titicaca and in the clays of the subsoil of Tihuanacu. (103)

                                            It should be pointed out that the block from which this notable monument was carved, is composed of andesitic hornblende, vitreous and very hard lava, which, polished as it was in that period, required several thousands of years to,wear away in the form in which we see it today.

                                            which presumably belong also to the First or Prehistoric Period of Tihuanacu because of their special and primitive architecture, are the monuments found on a little island in the lake which is today called Hakonts Palayani. This is the prolongation of Lake Titicaca in the overflower. These monuments give evidence of a most remote age which cannot be expressed in figures and although they are not found in Tihuanacu itself, but at some 25 km. in a straight line from this metropolis, it is necessary to study them as an integral part of the latter place when we consider the age of the Andean ruins

                                               he considered titicaca a glacial lake.  he contends the altiplano tilted to the south after tiwanaku was built, draining 40m of water off.  he contradicts himself here, and forgets his premise that tiwanaku could never have supported its dense population at its present elevation.  so the tilt could have happened during the uplift.  long ago that all traces have washed away.  not entirely the salt lakes remain, and from google earth one can see salt deposits of white, where the flood poured out of the basin.  had salinity been measured, it could be determined that titicaca gets sweeter over time, opposite to what our lads teach. 

                                            The Bolivian Altiplano, for example, the prehistoric seat of the greatest culture of the Americas, which, as we shall prove farther on, did not have the great height above sea level that it has today, did not because of its proximity to the equator, undergo a glacial period as long as that in the territories of present-day Argentina.

                                               he looks only to glaciers as the cause of uplift and depression, not considering that the altiplano lies on a subduction zone, where drops and uplifts can easily happen.  he thought the salt and marine creatures result from an uplift in the tertiary. 

                                               "Staircase Sign." appears from Tierra del Fuego to Alaska, and lends support that our native tribes originated in the andes. 

                                            mike

                                             

                                          • mike white
                                            jewels found at tiwanaku http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSN0248360320070503 mike
                                            Message 22 of 26 , Jul 29, 2009
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                                                 jewels found at tiwanaku
                                               
                                               
                                              mike
                                               
                                               
                                            • mike white
                                              my conclusions on the inca have changed quite a bit over the years. i still accept what cayce gave, as to the inca culture beginning circa 10,000 bce. no
                                              Message 23 of 26 , Jul 29, 2009
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                                                   my conclusions on the inca have changed quite a bit over the years.  i still accept what cayce gave, as to the inca culture beginning circa 10,000 bce.  no doubt the frisians and magyar arrived shortly after that time, as told in the 'oera de linda' book.  ive come to believe the words of phylos the thibetan, who made it clear that inca is an atlantean word, for the Sun.  he told of atlantean refugees arriving in peru after atlantis sank.  they brought sun worship, and the high priest was called the incalix. 
                                                   i think the atlanteans ruled peru for ages, both before and after the motherland sank.  the frisians and magyar were absorbed, contributing some things, like the earth-mother of the frisians, and many words from the magyar.  the religion and culture derived primarily from the atlanteans, imho. 
                                                   the dolichocephalic skull shape was common before the poleshift of 10,000 bce.  it was shared by the early atlanteans, aymara, and the ruling race of the quechua.  it certainly doesnt mean that the inca came from aymara stock.  the inca adopted the quechua language, and the aymara were given favor for being among the earliest tribes to accept inca rule.  
                                                   im inclined to believe the early inca empire extended even further north and east than the borders attained by the last inca.  phylos said that the rubber trees were planted in groves by the early atlantean colony in peru.  this fact is supported by the words of the early rubber harvesters.  early inca ruins are found far to the northeast.  much more must lie hidden by the jungle.  not only in the northeast, but due east of tiwanaku and cuzco. 
                                                   phylos suggested that the atlantean records were intact during his time [11,500 bce], yet as far as they went, no early culture was known to be in the atacama region.  he was surprised when he found structures of an ancient culture there.  their records could have gone back 500,000 years, yet the buildings he found predated that, apparently.  this tends to support the antiquity of the ica stones. 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                mike
                                                 
                                                 
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 1:41 AM
                                                Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] tiwanaku

                                                 
                                              • mike white
                                                ive been scanning tiwanaku with google earth. some things dont add up. first of all, the accepted site for tiwanaku is not near the water. the river is a
                                                Message 24 of 26 , Aug 1 4:42 AM
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                                                     ive been scanning tiwanaku with google earth.  some things dont add up.  first of all, the accepted site for tiwanaku is not near the water.  the 'river' is a half mile north of the site.  its difficult to judge the ancient fields from the modern, but an area of up to 150 sq miles shows the surveys of a dense population involved in agriculture.  major canals can still be traced.  a fraction of the population now occupies the area, that must have had a million or more in ancient times.  i see no advantage for the center of tiwanaku to be located where its not sited.  lake titicaca is now too salty for crops, yet the canals, and interesting geometric patterned field north of tiwanaku, appears to have been wonderful flower beds, perhaps for a palace - that has not been found.  maybe the canals carried fresh water then, from run-off of the slopes to the north.   it looks like modern structures were purposely built over the best ancient sites.  it looks like a million surveyed fields with no modern structures upon them.  every mountain slope is terraced almost to the top, with ancient unused fields. 
                                                     tiquina should be dammed up, and titicaca on the bolivian side should be lowered or drained.  90% of titicaca would remain undisturbed to protect the ecosystem.  its almost certain that wonderful archaeological sites would come to light.  the old tiwanaku may be underwater now.  all we have now is a remote temple site.  the great municipal buildings and palaces have not been found.  tiwanaku was probably older and greater than babylon.  the ancients may have opened this channel to flood it on purpose.  the straits should be examined by divers for ancient works. 
                                                   
                                                  imho
                                                  mike
                                                   
                                                   
                                                • va_niav
                                                  http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_8.htm The inscriptions on the back of the Pokotia statue define the role of the Putaki oracle in the community. It would
                                                  Message 25 of 26 , May 9, 2010
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                                                    http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_8.htm

                                                    The inscriptions on the back of the Pokotia statue define the role of the Putaki oracle in the community. It would appear that the people should recognize this oracle as a source of "truth" and glad tidings. Its additional role was to establish rigtheousness, wisdom and good character for the members of the community who might use this oracle to communicate with the gods.

                                                    Throughout this inscription the Putaki oracle is called the "father". For example, in column 1, it was written that: "Proclaim the establishment of chracter. The strong father (Putaki) to send forth the divination". And, in column 4, we discover that [Putaki is] the father of wisdom (and) benefit (for all). This suggest that Putaki was recognized as the great ancestor of other oracles in the region.


                                                    --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white" <infoplz@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ive been scanning tiwanaku with google earth. some things dont add up. first of all, the accepted site for tiwanaku is not near the water. the 'river' is a half mile north of the site. its difficult to judge the ancient fields from the modern, but an area of up to 150 sq miles shows the surveys of a dense population involved in agriculture. major canals can still be traced. a fraction of the population now occupies the area, that must have had a million or more in ancient times. i see no advantage for the center of tiwanaku to be located where its not sited. lake titicaca is now too salty for crops, yet the canals, and interesting geometric patterned field north of tiwanaku, appears to have been wonderful flower beds, perhaps for a palace - that has not been found. maybe the canals carried fresh water then, from run-off of the slopes to the north. it looks like modern structures were purposely built over the best ancient sites. it looks like a million surveyed fields with no modern structures upon them. every mountain slope is terraced almost to the top, with ancient unused fields.
                                                    > tiquina should be dammed up, and titicaca on the bolivian side should be lowered or drained. 90% of titicaca would remain undisturbed to protect the ecosystem. its almost certain that wonderful archaeological sites would come to light. the old tiwanaku may be underwater now. all we have now is a remote temple site. the great municipal buildings and palaces have not been found. tiwanaku was probably older and greater than babylon. the ancients may have opened this channel to flood it on purpose. the straits should be examined by divers for ancient works.
                                                    >
                                                    > imho
                                                    > mike
                                                    >
                                                  • mike white
                                                    thank you for your opinion. dr winters and bernardo were members of this group when they transliterated that. much more was given in this forum years ago,
                                                    Message 26 of 26 , May 9, 2010
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                                                          thank you for your opinion.  dr winters and bernardo were members of this group when they transliterated that.  much more was given in this forum years ago, when those finds were originally being studied.  not much new has been reported for several years now.  bernardo biados was last reported to be in argentina. 
                                                         i believe the pokotia statues are much older than thought.  the inscriptions appear to be later grafitti, but themselves likely date to circa 3000 bce. 
                                                         most academics continue to ignore several wonderful finds made in the andean region, since they dont fit acepted theories. 
                                                       
                                                      mike
                                                       
                                                       
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: va_niav
                                                      Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 10:42 PM
                                                      Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: tiwanaku

                                                       


                                                      http://www.world- mysteries. com/sar_8. htm

                                                      The inscriptions on the back of the Pokotia statue define the role of the Putaki oracle in the community. It would appear that the people should recognize this oracle as a source of "truth" and glad tidings. Its additional role was to establish rigtheousness, wisdom and good character for the members of the community who might use this oracle to communicate with the gods.

                                                      Throughout this inscription the Putaki oracle is called the "father". For example, in column 1, it was written that: "Proclaim the establishment of chracter. The strong father (Putaki) to send forth the divination". And, in column 4, we discover that [Putaki is] the father of wisdom (and) benefit (for all). This suggest that Putaki was recognized as the great ancestor of other oracles in the region.

                                                      --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white" <infoplz@... > wrote:
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                                                      > ive been scanning tiwanaku with google earth. some things dont add up. first of all, the accepted site for tiwanaku is not near the water. the 'river' is a half mile north of the site. its difficult to judge the ancient fields from the modern, but an area of up to 150 sq miles shows the surveys of a dense population involved in agriculture. major canals can still be traced. a fraction of the population now occupies the area, that must have had a million or more in ancient times. i see no advantage for the center of tiwanaku to be located where its not sited. lake titicaca is now too salty for crops, yet the canals, and interesting geometric patterned field north of tiwanaku, appears to have been wonderful flower beds, perhaps for a palace - that has not been found. maybe the canals carried fresh water then, from run-off of the slopes to the north. it looks like modern structures were purposely built over the best ancient sites. it looks like a million surveyed fields with no modern structures upon them. every mountain slope is terraced almost to the top, with ancient unused fields.
                                                      > tiquina should be dammed up, and titicaca on the bolivian side should be lowered or drained. 90% of titicaca would remain undisturbed to protect the ecosystem. its almost certain that wonderful archaeological sites would come to light. the old tiwanaku may be underwater now. all we have now is a remote temple site. the great municipal buildings and palaces have not been found. tiwanaku was probably older and greater than babylon. the ancients may have opened this channel to flood it on purpose. the straits should be examined by divers for ancient works.
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                                                      > imho
                                                      > mike
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