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[Ancient-Mysteries] Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] The "Phoenician" inscriptions from Paraiba, Brazil

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  • hleneto
    Greetings, I will first call your attention to the fact that Ilha do Corvo is an island belonging to the Azores, and as such not part of Brazil. The comment
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 21, 2012
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      Greetings,

      I will first call your attention to the fact that Ilha do Corvo is an island belonging to the Azores, and as such not part of Brazil. The comment regarding Corvo is not directly connected to the Paraiba Inscription as such.

      It seems the inscription relates well to Ophir. If one thinks it is genuine, one has to ask what happened to the referred group. Are these Phoenicians ancestors of Brazilian amerindians? Did they manage to go back? It seems possible that the authenticity of the Paraiba Inscription would be partial evidence that Phoenicia and its connections knew of Brazil throughout Antiquity and the Middle Ages.

      Cf. 1 Kings 9:26-28, http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09a09.htm#26

      26 And king Solomon made a navy of ships in Ezion-geber, which is beside Eloth, on the shore of the Red Sea, in the land of Edom.
      27 And Hiram sent in the navy his servants, shipmen that had knowledge of the sea, with the servants of Solomon.
      28 And they came to Ophir, and fetched from thence gold, four hundred and twenty talents, and brought it to king Solomon. {P}

      These Phoenicians in Brazil referred in the Paraiba Inscription might have tried to go back, might have divided in two groups. They might have made it back. They may have shared with or tought the Brazilian amerindians writing which has been recognized by some as Silva Ramos.

      Schlottmann mentions Methuastart as the leader of the group in Brazil. Gordon's translation for some reason seems to be referred without this name. Could this be associated with other people named Methuastart?

      Cf. Maspero, G. (Gaston), 1846-1916; Sayce, A. H. (Archibald Henry), 1845-1933, History of Egypt, Chaldea, Syria, Babylonia and Assyria (1903), p. 433, "The three surviving sons of Baalbezer, Methuastart, Astarym, and Phelles followed one another on the throne in rapid succession, the last-named perishing by the hand of his cousin Ethbaal, after a reign of eight months."

      Considering this small possibility, if we could identify the same Methuastart, then perhaps it could be proven that he made it back to Phoenicia. Of course, Methuastart has a simple etymology, it seems. The Baal of Sidon was Eshmun though, cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eshmun.

      These were some thoughts.

      Regards,
      Herculano Neto

      --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, <aumsparky@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > the inscription near rio at pedra gavea, appears to have a more plausible dating of circa 850 bce. that suggests that this southern colony lasted for thousands of years, and was in contact with tyre. with the many choices of wood for building boats, it should be expected that these mariners found their way to their comrades in ne brazil, and took a report of their situation back to tyre.
      > this chance landing in southern brazil may have opened a new route into the andes and to ophir. they had centuries to explore westward, and to voyage up the river platte. the inca empire extended southeast as far as tucuman argentina. the phoenicians must have learned of the riches of the inca over those long centuries, hiram 1st to badezar could have been over forty centuries.
      > it seems possible that the phoenicians may have came in strength against the inca, and conquered them. it may have been them who reigned for a thousand years, before inca rocca retook the empire. the legends do say that the invaders came from the east or southeast.
      > this long occupation by the phoenicians would explain how they were bold enough to vandalize the statues and monuments of those who preceded the inca, as at pokotia. traders on a brief trading voyage seldom would feel secure enough to scratch phoenician inscriptions on the great antiquities of a nation. the fuente magna as a votive bowl to a temple of heracles, also indicates a long sojourn in the andes. the ruins of that temple may someday be found.
      > so many sought to venture west to the americas, that tyre, carthage, and cadiz, were being depleted of citizens. for this reason, one king forbade any more voyages west. so the phoenicians may have looted the inca long before pizarro.
      > it was difficult to believe that jungle natives, headhunters, could have conquered the inca, and further, that they would wish to remain and occupy cities like cuzco for a thousand years. the above scenario seems more plausible.
      > no discussion or comments is not encouraging.
      >
      > mike
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: aumsparky@...
      > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
      > Cc: Ancient-Mysteries@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 11:12 AM
      > Subject: [Ancient-Mysteries] Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] The "Phoenician" inscriptions from Paraiba, Brazil
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > i think the port of macau in northeast brazil offers the best location for the phoenicians to enter to an inland lake by river. it has the rio grande del norte going far inland to a large lake, that would be great as a shipyard. there are many canals cut, its unknown how many are ancient or modern.
      >
      > here is another inscription from the colony of the south near rio. as usual, the experts tried to prove it a hoax, even though there is no motive for such a great labor. another inscription was found at the top of the sugar loaf near rio. too bad the ignorant sailors were poor scribes.
      >
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Silva_Ramos,_Pedra_da_Gavea,_interpretation.gif
      >
      > http://www.viewzone.com/gavea.html
      >
      > mike
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: aumsparky@...
      > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 10:08 AM
      > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] The "Phoenician" inscriptions from Paraiba, Brazil
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > the lost colony of the south probably had as a destination the paraiba river of the north. failing to arrive at the proper place, they may have given the same name paraiba to the river of the south.
      > da silva and Apollinaire Frot spent many years searching for and recording inscriptions found in brazil. the evidence that they collected was substantial, and compelling proof to any reasonable person, that the phoenicians had been trading thru brazil for centuries. it sure would be great to find the manuscripts or text of da silva and frot.
      > they entered by rivers to inland lakes, where they built harbors, warehouses, and shipyards. many of these works were studied and verified by archaeologists. one important site was along the lake near the confluence of the rio paraiba and longo. another was at the port touros.
      >
      > http://www.phoenicia.org/brazil.html
      >
      > google earth shows that much of the land in the northeast is now under cultivation. if the government of brazil doesnt act soon to protect these sites, all traces will be lost.
      > river travel into the interior may have only been possible at certain times of the year. this made it necessary to have a colony in northeast brazil, so that an arriving fleet could layover and wait. perhaps different vessels were used to navigate the rivers to ecuador. cargoes were transfered to the smaller craft, and the fleet was refited in the shipyard during the wait, to be ready for the later return voyage.
      > after the time of solomon, the phoenician fleets likely discontinued going around the cape of good hope, instead going direct from tyre, carthage, or cadiz. the latter port would have had less chance of them being followed, or being pirated.
      >
      > mike
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: aumsparky@...
      > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 9:59 PM
      > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] The "Phoenician" inscriptions from Paraiba, Brazil
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > enrico, good to hear from you again. i dont want to change my focus at this time, but will try to examine your links later. since you live near the paraiba river, maybe you know if the phoenician coins reported found can be seen at a museum in rio? can you identify the ilhas miguel and corvo? perhaps there are islands in the river?
      > if they date from the voyage of hiram's sailors to ophir, they will prove false another 'fact' of our lads, the experts, who say that the first coins were minted in lydia about 750 bce. i cannot believe that an accurate date was given the coins. we need more information on the coins.
      > after solomon guided the phoenicians to ophir, they may have continued the voyages there long after the time of solomon. it looks as though their favored route was across the caribbean sea, up the orinoco, the canal to the rio negro, then the amazon westward from manaus, called solimoes in ancient times.
      > having a colony in northeastern brazil would have been sought by the phoenicians, to resupply the fleet, coming and going. the reports of phoenician ruins there are probably true. the gold, silver, tin, hardwoods, and emeralds, could supply a rich trade for generations. the lost colony to the south may have never reconnected with those of the far north.
      >
      > mike
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: aumsparky@...
      > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 6:44 PM
      > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] The "Phoenician" inscriptions from Paraiba, Brazil
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > i was under the impression that the paraiba inscription was on living rock, not on a small stone. so the portion concerning the validity of the smaller stone may be discarded. my views may not concur with some of the authors, on certain issues.
      >
      > http://patagoniamonsters.blogspot.com/2011/03/phoenician-inscriptions-from-paraiba.html
      >
      > in all, it was an interesting series of information on the history of
      > The "Phoenician" inscriptions from Paraiba, Brazil. the dates they came out with for the inscription, were the most incredible things.
      >
      > i can believe that it has a basis in fact. its certain, from numerous finds in the amazon and the andes, that the phoenicians reached south america.
      >
      > the dating of the coins may be the weakest link in the chain of evidence. i cant believe that the tyreans made such a voyage during the reign of hiram, and after alexander destroyed tyre, somewhere near 330 bce. in my opinion, the time of solomon, and his hiram, was very likely before 3300 bce. the philistines fought by david, were likely greeks, returned from the trojan war [5500 bce], and later generations. this would put the voyage to brazil between 5500 bce and 3300 bce. this better fits the cuneiform found in bolivia. there were several hirams, and there may have been centuries between them.
      >
      > the southern paraiba seems more probable as being the correct location of the inscription, and former equestrian statue. i bet the inscription is still there, requiring a man to be lowered by ropes to read it. less likely to be destroyed by vandals.
      >
      > has the location of corvo and miguel island been determined?
      >
      > Pouso Alto is along a river that seems to flow east toward what could be a great harbor, if deep enough. this district i believe to be rich in minerals. both of these attributes would have attracted the phoenicians. it may have been less silted back then, plus their ships were shallow draft. there are islands in this bay, now with different names, one has wings like a bird, perhaps corvo, called restinga, the other grande.
      >
      > the paraiba river running parallel to the coast, inland from rio de janeiro, would be the natural highway, for minerals, and farm products. it has everything to have made it as attractive a site, thousands of years ago, as today. most of european stock live there today. im surprised that more relics have not been found in modern time.
      >
      > i will go so far, as saying this 10 ship fleet of phoenicians " embarked from Ezion-geber " [israel] were probably employed by solomon to get gold from ophir. as said before, i place ophir in ecuador. the main fleet made it to quito, and that lost, ended up nw of modern rio. they had 3 women with them, so a colony could have been started there. the land was fertile, the climate mild, so surviving for generations was possible.
      >
      > they werent from sidon, but tyre, just as the votive bowl of heracles found in bolivia. after 5500 bce, greek influence reached tyre, causing the great temple of heracles to be built there.
      >
      > thus, i date the inscription to the first hiram, circa 5000 bce. the fuente magna likely dates from the same era.
      >
      > mike
      >
    • aumsparky@earthlink.net
      welcome to the group herculano. you must be correct, both corvo and miguel are islands of the azores. the article i cited never made that clear. i guess
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 21, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
         
           welcome to the group herculano.  you must be correct, both corvo and miguel are islands of the azores.  the article i cited never made that clear.  i guess author was making the point that the phoenicians had used the azores as a watering station, just as those who followed after columbus. 
           many times the same name of a ruler was used again later.  there were three named hiram that ruled tyre. 
           it looks to me that the phoenicians had two colonies in brazil, and may have sustained them for up to 4,000 years.  they were great navigators, so its expected that they were in contact with each other, and with tyre. 
           the boldness of their monuments, especially in the south, shows that they wanted to make their presence known. 
           its uncertain how long after 850 bce, that resupply and trade was maintained with tyre.  the eruption of thera destroyed greek power, and may have disrupted phoenician trade.  after alexander leveled tyre near 330 bce, trade with the americas must have been over. 
           its unknown how much contact they had with native tribes.  thru time they showed little interest in longterm colonies, being satisfied with ports where needed.  ophir and china were such rich markets, that they may have been inclined to settle in large numbers over time. 
         
        mike
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: hleneto
        Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 3:45 PM
        Subject: [Ancient-Mysteries] Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] The "Phoenician" inscriptions from Paraiba, Brazil

         

        Greetings,

        I will first call your attention to the fact that Ilha do Corvo is an island belonging to the Azores, and as such not part of Brazil. The comment regarding Corvo is not directly connected to the Paraiba Inscription as such.

        It seems the inscription relates well to Ophir. If one thinks it is genuine, one has to ask what happened to the referred group. Are these Phoenicians ancestors of Brazilian amerindians? Did they manage to go back? It seems possible that the authenticity of the Paraiba Inscription would be partial evidence that Phoenicia and its connections knew of Brazil throughout Antiquity and the Middle Ages.

        Cf. 1 Kings 9:26-28, http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09a09.htm#26

        26 And king Solomon made a navy of ships in Ezion-geber, which is beside Eloth, on the shore of the Red Sea, in the land of Edom.
        27 And Hiram sent in the navy his servants, shipmen that had knowledge of the sea, with the servants of Solomon.
        28 And they came to Ophir, and fetched from thence gold, four hundred and twenty talents, and brought it to king Solomon. {P}

        These Phoenicians in Brazil referred in the Paraiba Inscription might have tried to go back, might have divided in two groups. They might have made it back. They may have shared with or tought the Brazilian amerindians writing which has been recognized by some as Silva Ramos.

        Schlottmann mentions Methuastart as the leader of the group in Brazil. Gordon's translation for some reason seems to be referred without this name. Could this be associated with other people named Methuastart?

        Cf. Maspero, G. (Gaston), 1846-1916; Sayce, A. H. (Archibald Henry), 1845-1933, History of Egypt, Chaldea, Syria, Babylonia and Assyria (1903), p. 433, "The three surviving sons of Baalbezer, Methuastart, Astarym, and Phelles followed one another on the throne in rapid succession, the last-named perishing by the hand of his cousin Ethbaal, after a reign of eight months."

        Considering this small possibility, if we could identify the same Methuastart, then perhaps it could be proven that he made it back to Phoenicia. Of course, Methuastart has a simple etymology, it seems. The Baal of Sidon was Eshmun though, cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eshmun.

        These were some thoughts.

        Regards,
        Herculano Neto

        --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, <aumsparky@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > the inscription near rio at pedra gavea, appears to have a more plausible dating of circa 850 bce. that suggests that this southern colony lasted for thousands of years, and was in contact with tyre. with the many choices of wood for building boats, it should be expected that these mariners found their way to their comrades in ne brazil, and took a report of their situation back to tyre.
        > this chance landing in southern brazil may have opened a new route into the andes and to ophir. they had centuries to explore westward, and to voyage up the river platte. the inca empire extended southeast as far as tucuman argentina. the phoenicians must have learned of the riches of the inca over those long centuries, hiram 1st to badezar could have been over forty centuries.
        > it seems possible that the phoenicians may have came in strength against the inca, and conquered them. it may have been them who reigned for a thousand years, before inca rocca retook the empire. the legends do say that the invaders came from the east or southeast.
        > this long occupation by the phoenicians would explain how they were bold enough to vandalize the statues and monuments of those who preceded the inca, as at pokotia. traders on a brief trading voyage seldom would feel secure enough to scratch phoenician inscriptions on the great antiquities of a nation. the fuente magna as a votive bowl to a temple of heracles, also indicates a long sojourn in the andes. the ruins of that temple may someday be found.
        > so many sought to venture west to the americas, that tyre, carthage, and cadiz, were being depleted of citizens. for this reason, one king forbade any more voyages west. so the phoenicians may have looted the inca long before pizarro.
        > it was difficult to believe that jungle natives, headhunters, could have conquered the inca, and further, that they would wish to remain and occupy cities like cuzco for a thousand years. the above scenario seems more plausible.
        > no discussion or comments is not encouraging.
        >
        > mike
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: aumsparky@...
        > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
        > Cc: Ancient-Mysteries@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 11:12 AM
        > Subject: [Ancient-Mysteries] Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] The "Phoenician" inscriptions from Paraiba, Brazil
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > i think the port of macau in northeast brazil offers the best location for the phoenicians to enter to an inland lake by river. it has the rio grande del norte going far inland to a large lake, that would be great as a shipyard. there are many canals cut, its unknown how many are ancient or modern.
        >
        > here is another inscription from the colony of the south near rio. as usual, the experts tried to prove it a hoax, even though there is no motive for such a great labor. another inscription was found at the top of the sugar loaf near rio. too bad the ignorant sailors were poor scribes.
        >
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Silva_Ramos,_Pedra_da_Gavea,_interpretation.gif
        >
        > http://www.viewzone.com/gavea.html
        >
        > mike
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: aumsparky@...
        > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 10:08 AM
        > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] The "Phoenician" inscriptions from Paraiba, Brazil
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > the lost colony of the south probably had as a destination the paraiba river of the north. failing to arrive at the proper place, they may have given the same name paraiba to the river of the south.
        > da silva and Apollinaire Frot spent many years searching for and recording inscriptions found in brazil. the evidence that they collected was substantial, and compelling proof to any reasonable person, that the phoenicians had been trading thru brazil for centuries. it sure would be great to find the manuscripts or text of da silva and frot.
        > they entered by rivers to inland lakes, where they built harbors, warehouses, and shipyards. many of these works were studied and verified by archaeologists. one important site was along the lake near the confluence of the rio paraiba and longo. another was at the port touros.
        >
        > http://www.phoenicia.org/brazil.html
        >
        > google earth shows that much of the land in the northeast is now under cultivation. if the government of brazil doesnt act soon to protect these sites, all traces will be lost.
        > river travel into the interior may have only been possible at certain times of the year. this made it necessary to have a colony in northeast brazil, so that an arriving fleet could layover and wait. perhaps different vessels were used to navigate the rivers to ecuador. cargoes were transfered to the smaller craft, and the fleet was refited in the shipyard during the wait, to be ready for the later return voyage.
        > after the time of solomon, the phoenician fleets likely discontinued going around the cape of good hope, instead going direct from tyre, carthage, or cadiz. the latter port would have had less chance of them being followed, or being pirated.
        >
        > mike
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: aumsparky@...
        > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 9:59 PM
        > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] The "Phoenician" inscriptions from Paraiba, Brazil
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > enrico, good to hear from you again. i dont want to change my focus at this time, but will try to examine your links later. since you live near the paraiba river, maybe you know if the phoenician coins reported found can be seen at a museum in rio? can you identify the ilhas miguel and corvo? perhaps there are islands in the river?
        > if they date from the voyage of hiram's sailors to ophir, they will prove false another 'fact' of our lads, the experts, who say that the first coins were minted in lydia about 750 bce. i cannot believe that an accurate date was given the coins. we need more information on the coins.
        > after solomon guided the phoenicians to ophir, they may have continued the voyages there long after the time of solomon. it looks as though their favored route was across the caribbean sea, up the orinoco, the canal to the rio negro, then the amazon westward from manaus, called solimoes in ancient times.
        > having a colony in northeastern brazil would have been sought by the phoenicians, to resupply the fleet, coming and going. the reports of phoenician ruins there are probably true. the gold, silver, tin, hardwoods, and emeralds, could supply a rich trade for generations. the lost colony to the south may have never reconnected with those of the far north.
        >
        > mike
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: aumsparky@...
        > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 6:44 PM
        > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] The "Phoenician" inscriptions from Paraiba, Brazil
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > i was under the impression that the paraiba inscription was on living rock, not on a small stone. so the portion concerning the validity of the smaller stone may be discarded. my views may not concur with some of the authors, on certain issues.
        >
        > http://patagoniamonsters.blogspot.com/2011/03/phoenician-inscriptions-from-paraiba.html
        >
        > in all, it was an interesting series of information on the history of
        > The "Phoenician" inscriptions from Paraiba, Brazil. the dates they came out with for the inscription, were the most incredible things.
        >
        > i can believe that it has a basis in fact. its certain, from numerous finds in the amazon and the andes, that the phoenicians reached south america.
        >
        > the dating of the coins may be the weakest link in the chain of evidence. i cant believe that the tyreans made such a voyage during the reign of hiram, and after alexander destroyed tyre, somewhere near 330 bce. in my opinion, the time of solomon, and his hiram, was very likely before 3300 bce. the philistines fought by david, were likely greeks, returned from the trojan war [5500 bce], and later generations. this would put the voyage to brazil between 5500 bce and 3300 bce. this better fits the cuneiform found in bolivia. there were several hirams, and there may have been centuries between them.
        >
        > the southern paraiba seems more probable as being the correct location of the inscription, and former equestrian statue. i bet the inscription is still there, requiring a man to be lowered by ropes to read it. less likely to be destroyed by vandals.
        >
        > has the location of corvo and miguel island been determined?
        >
        > Pouso Alto is along a river that seems to flow east toward what could be a great harbor, if deep enough. this district i believe to be rich in minerals. both of these attributes would have attracted the phoenicians. it may have been less silted back then, plus their ships were shallow draft. there are islands in this bay, now with different names, one has wings like a bird, perhaps corvo, called restinga, the other grande.
        >
        > the paraiba river running parallel to the coast, inland from rio de janeiro, would be the natural highway, for minerals, and farm products. it has everything to have made it as attractive a site, thousands of years ago, as today. most of european stock live there today. im surprised that more relics have not been found in modern time.
        >
        > i will go so far, as saying this 10 ship fleet of phoenicians " embarked from Ezion-geber " [israel] were probably employed by solomon to get gold from ophir. as said before, i place ophir in ecuador. the main fleet made it to quito, and that lost, ended up nw of modern rio. they had 3 women with them, so a colony could have been started there. the land was fertile, the climate mild, so surviving for generations was possible.
        >
        > they werent from sidon, but tyre, just as the votive bowl of heracles found in bolivia. after 5500 bce, greek influence reached tyre, causing the great temple of heracles to be built there.
        >
        > thus, i date the inscription to the first hiram, circa 5000 bce. the fuente magna likely dates from the same era.
        >
        > mike
        >

      • aumsparky@earthlink.net
        out-of-print Ancient History of Brazil: 1.100 B.C. to 1,500 A.C. by Ludwig Schwennhagen nice work by our member dr legner
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 21, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
           
          out-of-print
          "Ancient History of Brazil: 1.100 B.C. to 1,500 A.C. " by Ludwig Schwennhagen
           
          nice work by our member dr legner
           
           
          full text of harold wilkin's 'MYSTERIES OF ANCIENT
          SOUTH AMERICA '    i value his work, excellent research! 
              i think ive read this, but i may read it again. 
           
           
             the sea entrance of the parnaiba river has an extensive mole built of stone and soil.  unsure if its modern, or one of the ancient phoenician works mentioned by frot.  there are images on google earth and the net of it.  these works seem too ambitious for the small modern population.  masonry-lined canals running for miles.  be interesting to examine them, and other features of this landscape.  such sites would be a logical place for the needed shipyards, for sea worms ate thru the bottom rapidly, until much later, when metal sheathing began to be used.  it was wise to conceal such an asset, as a shipyard, farms, pastures, barracks, and warehouses.  fire arrows could have destroyed much work, in short time.  there were minerals in the region. 
          see

          Pontal da Amarração

          http://www.panoramio.com/photo/14550526

           
             not much serious research or digs have been done - so the experts should have little to say.  there is substantial evidence that the phoenicians lived in brazil for ages, perhaps as long as the frisians and magyar.  in the 'over the linda' chronicle, we had the sea king inka splitting off with his fleet to go to peru, while the sea king nef tunis [corrupted to neptune], founded tunis and tyre.  [ my estimate 9750 bce].  nef tunis would have learned what land inka had chosen, and began trade with his friends.  i dont know why i didnt see it before, but the phoenicians naturally would have learned all about peru, and other nearby lands, still above water in the west, after atlantis sank.  they knew about peru, and mexico, at the time of the founding of tyre, circa 9750 bce. 
             solomon [circa 5000 bce] hired the tyrean phoenicians to make a voyage of many years, that traversed halfway around the globe, 12,000 miles or more, across the red sea, indian ocean, atlantic, and caribbean sea.  our lads hold that the phoenicians feared getting out of sight of land, saying they had no compass.  first, any sailor knows that the danger lies in getting too close to shore.  they either had a compass, or were expert celestial navigators.  its likely that the shang dynasty were phoenicians, by the identical potters mark coding, and they also left proofs of a long sojourn in bolivia. 
             look in the bible for a rich description of the incredible wealth of tyre, in ancient times.  its destruction was accurately prophecized.  they had a corner on the most precious markets in the world, ophir, the inca, mexico, india, and china.  any little thing that they could find, that was unknown in the 'old world', could be very valuable, like the royal purple dye that the phoenicians adopted from central america.  they may find silk in the 1500 bce strata of tyre.  consider for how long, and how completely, that this great trade secret was kept hidden from all outsiders.  they must not have allowed their sailors, or rowing crews, to serve on foreign ships, and the reverse.  they were great distance navigators, with good charts, when other nations had none of these advantages.  with so much wealth at tyre, its a wonder that the greeks didnt take it before troy.  the story of tyre has never been told.  the earlier tyre or thor, was on the mainland.  later it located on an island.  there must be tons of gold hidden near tyre.  they were certainly people earning more wealth than they could spend in a lifetime. 
             it just occured to me, that the greeks likely had power over tyre soon after the fall of troy 5500 bce.  so the greeks may have been aware of the trade with ophir and maybe china, after that date, sharing the wealth with golden mycenae.  this changed after the eruption of thera weakened and mostly destroyed the greeks.  recall the phoenicians attacked greece, and killed almost everyone left, after the tsunamis - leaving no records or witnesses, of their trade secrets.  this was followed by the dark ages of greece for several centuries.  im surprised that homer did not sing of this.  total defeat would not be a popular theme to restore a nation of heroes.  the greeks probably exacted a heavy tribute from tyre every year. 
             in fact, it may have been the heavy-hand of the greeks, that caused the migration to china.  they date the shang to 1700 bce, but that was the date for the official start for the dynasty.  the bronze and chariots of the shang arrived much earlier.  the phoenician migration to the yellow river may have began as early as 5000 bce.  maybe they had to leave to keep their secrets from being tortured out of them.  china was a smart move.  they could traverse the pacific to the inca and ophir lands, on the pacific, with no fear being followed or pirated. 
             i need to review the books i have by cyrus gordon, who did translate and comment upon inscriptions found in brazil. 
             when ancient inscriptions or artwork is found - its important to not try to clean it.  the degree of patina is an important factor in dating them, at least to some of us.  
           
          mike
           
           
        • hleneto
          mike, Regarding the Thesis of the presence of Phoenicians in Brazil or America, Thoron, Henrique Onffroy (Dom), Antiguidade da navegação do oceano. Viagens
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 22, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            mike,

            Regarding the Thesis of the presence of Phoenicians in Brazil or America,

            Thoron, Henrique Onffroy (Dom), Antiguidade da navegação do oceano. Viagens dos navios de Salomão ao rio das amazonas. Belém: Instituto Lauro Sodré, 1905 - . Biblioteca Virtual do Amazonas. (online at http://www.bv.am.gov.br/portal/conteudo/acervo/digitalizado/descObraDigitalizada.php?idTitulo=98)

            Onfroy de Thoron supports that Hercules visited America; this idea is also proposed by Enrico Mattievich in Viagem ao Inferno Mitologico. Heracles or Hercules is associated with semitic Melkart.

            Some of the points therein
            . Hercules visited America.
            . Phoenicians knew all the seas cf. Bible.
            . Sea currents can be used both ways for transatlantic travels between America and Africa.

            Onfroy de Thoron's work was used by Ludwig Schwennhagen. It may have been the first to present some of the foundations of this thesis, considering biblical travel time to Tarschisch, etc.

            Regards,
            Herculano Neto

            --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, <aumsparky@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > out-of-print
            > "Ancient History of Brazil: 1.100 B.C. to 1,500 A.C. " by Ludwig Schwennhagen
            >
            > nice work by our member dr legner
            > http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/biados/texts/brazilph.htm
            >
            > http://www.mcguiresplace.net/The%20Cradle%20of%20Civilization/
            >
            > full text of harold wilkin's 'MYSTERIES OF ANCIENT
            > SOUTH AMERICA ' i value his work, excellent research!
            > i think ive read this, but i may read it again.
            >
            > http://www.archive.org/stream/mysteriesofancie035488mbp/mysteriesofancie035488mbp_djvu.txt
            >
            > the sea entrance of the parnaiba river has an extensive mole built of stone and soil. unsure if its modern, or one of the ancient phoenician works mentioned by frot. there are images on google earth and the net of it. these works seem too ambitious for the small modern population. masonry-lined canals running for miles. be interesting to examine them, and other features of this landscape. such sites would be a logical place for the needed shipyards, for sea worms ate thru the bottom rapidly, until much later, when metal sheathing began to be used. it was wise to conceal such an asset, as a shipyard, farms, pastures, barracks, and warehouses. fire arrows could have destroyed much work, in short time. there were minerals in the region.
            > see
            > Pontal da Amarra��o
            > http://www.panoramio.com/photo/14550526
            >
            > not much serious research or digs have been done - so the experts should have little to say. there is substantial evidence that the phoenicians lived in brazil for ages, perhaps as long as the frisians and magyar. in the 'over the linda' chronicle, we had the sea king inka splitting off with his fleet to go to peru, while the sea king nef tunis [corrupted to neptune], founded tunis and tyre. [ my estimate 9750 bce]. nef tunis would have learned what land inka had chosen, and began trade with his friends. i dont know why i didnt see it before, but the phoenicians naturally would have learned all about peru, and other nearby lands, still above water in the west, after atlantis sank. they knew about peru, and mexico, at the time of the founding of tyre, circa 9750 bce.
            > solomon [circa 5000 bce] hired the tyrean phoenicians to make a voyage of many years, that traversed halfway around the globe, 12,000 miles or more, across the red sea, indian ocean, atlantic, and caribbean sea. our lads hold that the phoenicians feared getting out of sight of land, saying they had no compass. first, any sailor knows that the danger lies in getting too close to shore. they either had a compass, or were expert celestial navigators. its likely that the shang dynasty were phoenicians, by the identical potters mark coding, and they also left proofs of a long sojourn in bolivia.
            > look in the bible for a rich description of the incredible wealth of tyre, in ancient times. its destruction was accurately prophecized. they had a corner on the most precious markets in the world, ophir, the inca, mexico, india, and china. any little thing that they could find, that was unknown in the 'old world', could be very valuable, like the royal purple dye that the phoenicians adopted from central america. they may find silk in the 1500 bce strata of tyre. consider for how long, and how completely, that this great trade secret was kept hidden from all outsiders. they must not have allowed their sailors, or rowing crews, to serve on foreign ships, and the reverse. they were great distance navigators, with good charts, when other nations had none of these advantages. with so much wealth at tyre, its a wonder that the greeks didnt take it before troy. the story of tyre has never been told. the earlier tyre or thor, was on the mainland. later it located on an island. there must be tons of gold hidden near tyre. they were certainly people earning more wealth than they could spend in a lifetime.
            > it just occured to me, that the greeks likely had power over tyre soon after the fall of troy 5500 bce. so the greeks may have been aware of the trade with ophir and maybe china, after that date, sharing the wealth with golden mycenae. this changed after the eruption of thera weakened and mostly destroyed the greeks. recall the phoenicians attacked greece, and killed almost everyone left, after the tsunamis - leaving no records or witnesses, of their trade secrets. this was followed by the dark ages of greece for several centuries. im surprised that homer did not sing of this. total defeat would not be a popular theme to restore a nation of heroes. the greeks probably exacted a heavy tribute from tyre every year.
            > in fact, it may have been the heavy-hand of the greeks, that caused the migration to china. they date the shang to 1700 bce, but that was the date for the official start for the dynasty. the bronze and chariots of the shang arrived much earlier. the phoenician migration to the yellow river may have began as early as 5000 bce. maybe they had to leave to keep their secrets from being tortured out of them. china was a smart move. they could traverse the pacific to the inca and ophir lands, on the pacific, with no fear being followed or pirated.
            > i need to review the books i have by cyrus gordon, who did translate and comment upon inscriptions found in brazil.
            > when ancient inscriptions or artwork is found - its important to not try to clean it. the degree of patina is an important factor in dating them, at least to some of us.
            >
            > mike
            >
          • aumsparky@earthlink.net
            thats a big thesis, please allow time for it to be translated. there were at least two prominent heracles, the most famous, i date to near the same period as
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 22, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
               
                 thats a big thesis, please allow time for it to be translated. 
                 there were at least two prominent heracles, the most famous, i date to near the same period as the founding of tyre, 9750 bce.  he was one of the widest traveled men of the greeks, all over europe, north africa, and the mideast.  its reported that he looted troy long before the trojan war, and it was rebuilt.  he probably visited tyre soon after its founding.  its given that the temple of thor was rededicated as the temple of heracles.  being held at that high regard in tyre, he may have been included in a voyage to the west. 
                 its certain that the fuente magna found in bolivia, depicts baby heracles grasping the two serpents sent to kill him by hera.  why other scholars fail to see that, is beyond my comprehension. 
                 i likely erred when i said that solomon instructed the phoenicians on the location of ophir, circa 5000 bce.  its more likely that these mariners had been voyaging there for thousands of years before his time. 
                 its known that a great temple to heracles was built at tyre circa 2850 bce, its not known if it replaced an earlier temple to heracles.  im inclined to believe so. 
                  the date for the earliest use of writing must be pushed far back in time.  egyptian hieroglyphs, and cuneiform, must have been in use by 10,000 bce.  the fuente magna could date closer to 9000 bce, than to 3000 bce.  until it is transliterated accurately, we will not know, if it was a votive offering, or simply the eating bowl of a giant mariner from tyre. 
               
                 here is some work of mine from many years ago, that i need to update to my current position on a few matters.  now i hold that the phoenicians were the shang, however they had roots in the frisians and magyar, who founded tyre. 
               
               
                  look at the images online of fuente magna, and study the familiar theme of baby heracles and the serpents.  this confirms that the voyagers who reached bolivia had came from tyre.  the relic has two archaic scripts used on it, unsure if its bilingual, but when either is read correctly, i bet it confirms the origin at tyre. 
                 the evidence we are discussing in brazil as to the extent and number of phoenicians that lived in colonies there, has changed my thinking on several issues.  as usual, the academics have failed on their watch. 
               
              mike
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: hleneto
              Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 6:29 AM
              Subject: [Ancient-Mysteries] Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] The "Phoenician" inscriptions from Paraiba, Brazil

               

              mike,

              Regarding the Thesis of the presence of Phoenicians in Brazil or America,

              Thoron, Henrique Onffroy (Dom), Antiguidade da navegação do oceano. Viagens dos navios de Salomão ao rio das amazonas. Belém: Instituto Lauro Sodré, 1905 - . Biblioteca Virtual do Amazonas. (online at http://www.bv.am.gov.br/portal/conteudo/acervo/digitalizado/descObraDigitalizada.php?idTitulo=98)

              Onfroy de Thoron supports that Hercules visited America; this idea is also proposed by Enrico Mattievich in Viagem ao Inferno Mitologico. Heracles or Hercules is associated with semitic Melkart.

              Some of the points therein
              . Hercules visited America.
              . Phoenicians knew all the seas cf. Bible.
              . Sea currents can be used both ways for transatlantic travels between America and Africa.

              Onfroy de Thoron's work was used by Ludwig Schwennhagen. It may have been the first to present some of the foundations of this thesis, considering biblical travel time to Tarschisch, etc.

              Regards,
              Herculano Neto

              --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, <aumsparky@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > out-of-print
              > "Ancient History of Brazil: 1.100 B.C. to 1,500 A.C. " by Ludwig Schwennhagen
              >
              > nice work by our member dr legner
              > http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/biados/texts/brazilph.htm
              >
              > http://www.mcguiresplace.net/The%20Cradle%20of%20Civilization/
              >
              > full text of harold wilkin's 'MYSTERIES OF ANCIENT
              > SOUTH AMERICA ' i value his work, excellent research!
              > i think ive read this, but i may read it again.
              >
              > http://www.archive.org/stream/mysteriesofancie035488mbp/mysteriesofancie035488mbp_djvu.txt
              >
              > the sea entrance of the parnaiba river has an extensive mole built of stone and soil. unsure if its modern, or one of the ancient phoenician works mentioned by frot. there are images on google earth and the net of it. these works seem too ambitious for the small modern population. masonry-lined canals running for miles. be interesting to examine them, and other features of this landscape. such sites would be a logical place for the needed shipyards, for sea worms ate thru the bottom rapidly, until much later, when metal sheathing began to be used. it was wise to conceal such an asset, as a shipyard, farms, pastures, barracks, and warehouses. fire arrows could have destroyed much work, in short time. there were minerals in the region.
              > see
              > Pontal da Amarra��o
              > http://www.panoramio.com/photo/14550526
              >
              > not much serious research or digs have been done - so the experts should have little to say. there is substantial evidence that the phoenicians lived in brazil for ages, perhaps as long as the frisians and magyar. in the 'over the linda' chronicle, we had the sea king inka splitting off with his fleet to go to peru, while the sea king nef tunis [corrupted to neptune], founded tunis and tyre. [ my estimate 9750 bce]. nef tunis would have learned what land inka had chosen, and began trade with his friends. i dont know why i didnt see it before, but the phoenicians naturally would have learned all about peru, and other nearby lands, still above water in the west, after atlantis sank. they knew about peru, and mexico, at the time of the founding of tyre, circa 9750 bce.
              > solomon [circa 5000 bce] hired the tyrean phoenicians to make a voyage of many years, that traversed halfway around the globe, 12,000 miles or more, across the red sea, indian ocean, atlantic, and caribbean sea. our lads hold that the phoenicians feared getting out of sight of land, saying they had no compass. first, any sailor knows that the danger lies in getting too close to shore. they either had a compass, or were expert celestial navigators. its likely that the shang dynasty were phoenicians, by the identical potters mark coding, and they also left proofs of a long sojourn in bolivia.
              > look in the bible for a rich description of the incredible wealth of tyre, in ancient times. its destruction was accurately prophecized. they had a corner on the most precious markets in the world, ophir, the inca, mexico, india, and china. any little thing that they could find, that was unknown in the 'old world', could be very valuable, like the royal purple dye that the phoenicians adopted from central america. they may find silk in the 1500 bce strata of tyre. consider for how long, and how completely, that this great trade secret was kept hidden from all outsiders. they must not have allowed their sailors, or rowing crews, to serve on foreign ships, and the reverse. they were great distance navigators, with good charts, when other nations had none of these advantages. with so much wealth at tyre, its a wonder that the greeks didnt take it before troy. the story of tyre has never been told. the earlier tyre or thor, was on the mainland. later it located on an island. there must be tons of gold hidden near tyre. they were certainly people earning more wealth than they could spend in a lifetime.
              > it just occured to me, that the greeks likely had power over tyre soon after the fall of troy 5500 bce. so the greeks may have been aware of the trade with ophir and maybe china, after that date, sharing the wealth with golden mycenae. this changed after the eruption of thera weakened and mostly destroyed the greeks. recall the phoenicians attacked greece, and killed almost everyone left, after the tsunamis - leaving no records or witnesses, of their trade secrets. this was followed by the dark ages of greece for several centuries. im surprised that homer did not sing of this. total defeat would not be a popular theme to restore a nation of heroes. the greeks probably exacted a heavy tribute from tyre every year.
              > in fact, it may have been the heavy-hand of the greeks, that caused the migration to china. they date the shang to 1700 bce, but that was the date for the official start for the dynasty. the bronze and chariots of the shang arrived much earlier. the phoenician migration to the yellow river may have began as early as 5000 bce. maybe they had to leave to keep their secrets from being tortured out of them. china was a smart move. they could traverse the pacific to the inca and ophir lands, on the pacific, with no fear being followed or pirated.
              > i need to review the books i have by cyrus gordon, who did translate and comment upon inscriptions found in brazil.
              > when ancient inscriptions or artwork is found - its important to not try to clean it. the degree of patina is an important factor in dating them, at least to some of us.
              >
              > mike
              >

            • hleneto
              mike, The Fuente Magna is indeed interesting. I notice strong similarities between the signs next to the supposed Heracles depiction and the signs on
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 22, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                mike,

                The Fuente Magna is indeed interesting. I notice strong similarities between the signs next to the supposed Heracles depiction and the signs on Manuscript 512. Cf. http://olmec98.net/Image295.gif on http://olmec98.net/Fuente.htm and http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inscricoes-Manuscrito-512.png or Harold T. Wilkin's 'Mysteries of Ancient South America' pp. 45-46 and further, Chapter V.

                Manuscrito 512 may be more evidence to be pondered for the Thesis of the presence of Phoenicians and Greeks in Brazil, its signs seem like the Greek alphabet.
                Cf. Relacao historica de uma occulta e grande povoacao antiquissima sem moradores, que se descobriu no anno de 1753, nos sertoes do Brazil ; copiada de um manuscripto da Bibliotheca Publica do Rio de Janeiro. Em: Revista do Instituto Historico e Geografico do Brasil, Tomo I, 1839, p. 150-.

                I'll look at the Oera Linda Book.

                Regards,
                Herculano Neto

                --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, <aumsparky@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > thats a big thesis, please allow time for it to be translated.
                > there were at least two prominent heracles, the most famous, i date to near the same period as the founding of tyre, 9750 bce. he was one of the widest traveled men of the greeks, all over europe, north africa, and the mideast. its reported that he looted troy long before the trojan war, and it was rebuilt. he probably visited tyre soon after its founding. its given that the temple of thor was rededicated as the temple of heracles. being held at that high regard in tyre, he may have been included in a voyage to the west.
                > its certain that the fuente magna found in bolivia, depicts baby heracles grasping the two serpents sent to kill him by hera. why other scholars fail to see that, is beyond my comprehension.
                > i likely erred when i said that solomon instructed the phoenicians on the location of ophir, circa 5000 bce. its more likely that these mariners had been voyaging there for thousands of years before his time.
                > its known that a great temple to heracles was built at tyre circa 2850 bce, its not known if it replaced an earlier temple to heracles. im inclined to believe so.
                > the date for the earliest use of writing must be pushed far back in time. egyptian hieroglyphs, and cuneiform, must have been in use by 10,000 bce. the fuente magna could date closer to 9000 bce, than to 3000 bce. until it is transliterated accurately, we will not know, if it was a votive offering, or simply the eating bowl of a giant mariner from tyre.
                >
                > here is some work of mine from many years ago, that i need to update to my current position on a few matters. now i hold that the phoenicians were the shang, however they had roots in the frisians and magyar, who founded tyre.
                >
                > http://www.all-ez.com/frisian-inka.htm
                >
                > look at the images online of fuente magna, and study the familiar theme of baby heracles and the serpents. this confirms that the voyagers who reached bolivia had came from tyre. the relic has two archaic scripts used on it, unsure if its bilingual, but when either is read correctly, i bet it confirms the origin at tyre.
                > the evidence we are discussing in brazil as to the extent and number of phoenicians that lived in colonies there, has changed my thinking on several issues. as usual, the academics have failed on their watch.
                >
                > mike
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: hleneto
                > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 6:29 AM
                > Subject: [Ancient-Mysteries] Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] The "Phoenician" inscriptions from Paraiba, Brazil
                >
                >
                >
                > mike,
                >
                > Regarding the Thesis of the presence of Phoenicians in Brazil or America,
                >
                > Thoron, Henrique Onffroy (Dom), Antiguidade da navegação do oceano. Viagens dos navios de Salomão ao rio das amazonas. Belém: Instituto Lauro Sodré, 1905 - . Biblioteca Virtual do Amazonas. (online at http://www.bv.am.gov.br/portal/conteudo/acervo/digitalizado/descObraDigitalizada.php?idTitulo=98)
                >
                > Onfroy de Thoron supports that Hercules visited America; this idea is also proposed by Enrico Mattievich in Viagem ao Inferno Mitologico. Heracles or Hercules is associated with semitic Melkart.
                >
                > Some of the points therein
                > . Hercules visited America.
                > . Phoenicians knew all the seas cf. Bible.
                > . Sea currents can be used both ways for transatlantic travels between America and Africa.
                >
                > Onfroy de Thoron's work was used by Ludwig Schwennhagen. It may have been the first to present some of the foundations of this thesis, considering biblical travel time to Tarschisch, etc.
                >
                > Regards,
                > Herculano Neto
                >
                > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, <aumsparky@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > out-of-print
                > > "Ancient History of Brazil: 1.100 B.C. to 1,500 A.C. " by Ludwig Schwennhagen
                > >
                > > nice work by our member dr legner
                > > http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/biados/texts/brazilph.htm
                > >
                > > http://www.mcguiresplace.net/The%20Cradle%20of%20Civilization/
                > >
                > > full text of harold wilkin's 'MYSTERIES OF ANCIENT
                > > SOUTH AMERICA ' i value his work, excellent research!
                > > i think ive read this, but i may read it again.
                > >
                > > http://www.archive.org/stream/mysteriesofancie035488mbp/mysteriesofancie035488mbp_djvu.txt
                > >
                > > the sea entrance of the parnaiba river has an extensive mole built of stone and soil. unsure if its modern, or one of the ancient phoenician works mentioned by frot. there are images on google earth and the net of it. these works seem too ambitious for the small modern population. masonry-lined canals running for miles. be interesting to examine them, and other features of this landscape. such sites would be a logical place for the needed shipyards, for sea worms ate thru the bottom rapidly, until much later, when metal sheathing began to be used. it was wise to conceal such an asset, as a shipyard, farms, pastures, barracks, and warehouses. fire arrows could have destroyed much work, in short time. there were minerals in the region.
                > > see
                > > Pontal da Amarra��o
                > > http://www.panoramio.com/photo/14550526
                > >
                > > not much serious research or digs have been done - so the experts should have little to say. there is substantial evidence that the phoenicians lived in brazil for ages, perhaps as long as the frisians and magyar. in the 'over the linda' chronicle, we had the sea king inka splitting off with his fleet to go to peru, while the sea king nef tunis [corrupted to neptune], founded tunis and tyre. [ my estimate 9750 bce]. nef tunis would have learned what land inka had chosen, and began trade with his friends. i dont know why i didnt see it before, but the phoenicians naturally would have learned all about peru, and other nearby lands, still above water in the west, after atlantis sank. they knew about peru, and mexico, at the time of the founding of tyre, circa 9750 bce.
                > > solomon [circa 5000 bce] hired the tyrean phoenicians to make a voyage of many years, that traversed halfway around the globe, 12,000 miles or more, across the red sea, indian ocean, atlantic, and caribbean sea. our lads hold that the phoenicians feared getting out of sight of land, saying they had no compass. first, any sailor knows that the danger lies in getting too close to shore. they either had a compass, or were expert celestial navigators. its likely that the shang dynasty were phoenicians, by the identical potters mark coding, and they also left proofs of a long sojourn in bolivia.
                > > look in the bible for a rich description of the incredible wealth of tyre, in ancient times. its destruction was accurately prophecized. they had a corner on the most precious markets in the world, ophir, the inca, mexico, india, and china. any little thing that they could find, that was unknown in the 'old world', could be very valuable, like the royal purple dye that the phoenicians adopted from central america. they may find silk in the 1500 bce strata of tyre. consider for how long, and how completely, that this great trade secret was kept hidden from all outsiders. they must not have allowed their sailors, or rowing crews, to serve on foreign ships, and the reverse. they were great distance navigators, with good charts, when other nations had none of these advantages. with so much wealth at tyre, its a wonder that the greeks didnt take it before troy. the story of tyre has never been told. the earlier tyre or thor, was on the mainland. later it located on an island. there must be tons of gold hidden near tyre. they were certainly people earning more wealth than they could spend in a lifetime.
                > > it just occured to me, that the greeks likely had power over tyre soon after the fall of troy 5500 bce. so the greeks may have been aware of the trade with ophir and maybe china, after that date, sharing the wealth with golden mycenae. this changed after the eruption of thera weakened and mostly destroyed the greeks. recall the phoenicians attacked greece, and killed almost everyone left, after the tsunamis - leaving no records or witnesses, of their trade secrets. this was followed by the dark ages of greece for several centuries. im surprised that homer did not sing of this. total defeat would not be a popular theme to restore a nation of heroes. the greeks probably exacted a heavy tribute from tyre every year.
                > > in fact, it may have been the heavy-hand of the greeks, that caused the migration to china. they date the shang to 1700 bce, but that was the date for the official start for the dynasty. the bronze and chariots of the shang arrived much earlier. the phoenician migration to the yellow river may have began as early as 5000 bce. maybe they had to leave to keep their secrets from being tortured out of them. china was a smart move. they could traverse the pacific to the inca and ophir lands, on the pacific, with no fear being followed or pirated.
                > > i need to review the books i have by cyrus gordon, who did translate and comment upon inscriptions found in brazil.
                > > when ancient inscriptions or artwork is found - its important to not try to clean it. the degree of patina is an important factor in dating them, at least to some of us.
                > >
                > > mike
                > >
                >
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