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Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

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  • mike white
    i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids. there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than
    Message 1 of 26 , Sep 21, 2009
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         i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids.  there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay.  i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta. 
       
      mike
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

       

      Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
      william

      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

      From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
      To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM

       

       
      hi william, all
       
         there are pyramids in usa.  look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds.  ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south. 
       
      mike
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

       

      Hi Mike
        I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
      William

      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

      From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
      Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
      To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

       

       
         i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
         if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
         im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
         i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
         so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
         it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
         the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
       
      mike
       
       

    • william smith
      Hi Mike   Let me know when you plan to get to Ohio. I am not far from the area you are talking about. If I can be of any assistance please advise. william ...
      Message 2 of 26 , Sep 21, 2009
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        Hi Mike
          Let me know when you plan to get to Ohio. I am not far from the area you are talking about. If I can be of any assistance please advise.
        william

        --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:

        From: mike white <infoplz@...>
        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
        To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:26 PM

         

         
           i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids.  there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay.  i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta. 
         
        mike
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

         

        Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
        william

        --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

        From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
        To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM

         

         
        hi william, all
         
           there are pyramids in usa.  look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds.  ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south. 
         
        mike
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

         

        Hi Mike
          I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
        William

        --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

        From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
        Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
        To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

         

         
           i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
           if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
           im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
           i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
           so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
           it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
           the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
         
        mike
         
         

      • mike white
        to keep an open-mind, we arent certain that the pyramids of marietta were built by the hopewell or adena. they may relate to those of the deep south, for no
        Message 3 of 26 , Sep 21, 2009
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             to keep an open-mind, we arent certain that the pyramids of marietta were built by the hopewell or adena.  they may relate to those of the deep south, for no other truncated temple pyramids were built in ohio, as far as i know.  judging by the cut of the river since the original temple ramp was constructed, it was thousands of years ago.  i think squiers and davis said the river was 30 ft below the ramp in 1850 ce.  we can check their figure, and see how much deeper the bed is cut in 159 years, then estimate how long since the old ramp was at river level, i bet over 5,000 years.  this needs to be done william. 
           
          mike
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:26 PM
          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

           

           
             i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids.  there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay.  i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta. 
           
          mike
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

           

          Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
          william

          --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

          From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
          To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM

           

           
          hi william, all
           
             there are pyramids in usa.  look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds.  ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south. 
           
          mike
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

           

          Hi Mike
            I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
          William

          --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

          From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
          Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
          To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

           

           
             i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
             if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
             im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
             i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
             so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
             it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
             the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
           
          mike
           
           

        • mike white
          hi william if you can measure from the ancient ramp to current river level, i will consult squiers and davis for their figure, then compute how long ago the
          Message 4 of 26 , Sep 21, 2009
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            hi william
             
               if you can measure from the ancient ramp to current river level, i will consult squiers and davis for their figure, then compute how long ago the ramp was usable. 
             
            mike
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:41 PM
            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

             

            Hi Mike
              Let me know when you plan to get to Ohio. I am not far from the area you are talking about. If I can be of any assistance please advise.
            william

            --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

            From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
            To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:26 PM

             

             
               i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids.  there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay.  i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta. 
             
            mike
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

             

            Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
            william

            --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

            From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
            To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM

             

             
            hi william, all
             
               there are pyramids in usa.  look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds.  ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south. 
             
            mike
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

             

            Hi Mike
              I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
            William

            --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

            From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
            Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
            To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

             

             
               i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
               if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
               im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
               i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
               so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
               it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
               the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
             
            mike
             
             

          • Vincent Barrows
            William Smith, Mike White;   William Smith needs to do his research about the mound groups in Illinois and stop ignoring data.     The majority of data
            Message 5 of 26 , Sep 21, 2009
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              William Smith, Mike White;
               
              William Smith needs to do his research about the mound groups in Illinois and stop ignoring data. 
               
               The majority of data shows that Mounds in Southern Illinois predate the time period from around 1000 years ago.  In fact, this time period is represented by a very small and minor percentage of the lithic evidence that was found from mounds in southern Illinois.
              The majority of evidence points to Late archaic moundbuilders, although the second largest group points to early archaic civilizations. 
               
              Alan Harn presented an excellent summary of the chronology of the southern illinois region in his book about American Bottom archaeological surveys.

              http://books.google.com/books?id=7YV3uTZCKhQC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=archaic+american+bottom+region&source=bl&ots=XL-4EZ_Ky8&sig=Ya_4MDO3Uk82bKm4qN_gGGrZ8kQ&hl=en&ei=7d-3Ssf5ENawtgf-_82tDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=archaic%20american%20bottom%20region&f=false

              I have presented the data based on Lithic evidence from Southern Illinois in my historyofmonksmound website.
               
              Mike White is corect that grouping moundbuilder traditions into the "mississippian" tradition is completely inaccurate and cannot be supported by the data.
               
              Vince Barrows
              www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/
               
               
               
               


              --- On Mon, 9/21/09, william smith <wmsmithrock1@...> wrote:

              From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
              To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 1:49 PM

               
              Hi Mike
                I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
              William

              --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

              From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
              Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
              To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

               
               
                 i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
                 if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
                 im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
                 i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
                 so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
                 it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
                 the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
               
              mike
               
               

            • william smith
              Hi Mike   Would we not have to have the high and low of the river as rainfall changes it? The following link has a lot of S&D info at the end as well as a
              Message 6 of 26 , Sep 21, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Mike
                  Would we not have to have the high and low of the river as rainfall changes it? The following link has a lot of S&D info at the end as well as a good recorded history of the area before the dams and locks were constructed .http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~sandford/Articles/Ancient%20Works%20at%20Marietta.html

                william

                --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:

                From: mike white <infoplz@...>
                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:57 PM

                 

                 
                hi william
                 
                   if you can measure from the ancient ramp to current river level, i will consult squiers and davis for their figure, then compute how long ago the ramp was usable. 
                 
                mike
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:41 PM
                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                 

                Hi Mike
                  Let me know when you plan to get to Ohio. I am not far from the area you are talking about. If I can be of any assistance please advise.
                william

                --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:26 PM

                 

                 
                   i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids.  there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay.  i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta. 
                 
                mike
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                 

                Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                william

                --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM

                 

                 
                hi william, all
                 
                   there are pyramids in usa.  look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds.  ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south. 
                 
                mike
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                 

                Hi Mike
                  I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                William

                --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

                 

                 
                   i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
                   if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
                   im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
                   i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
                   so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
                   it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
                   the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
                 
                mike
                 
                 

              • william smith
                Hi Mike   As I stated in the beginning of this conversation I am no expert on the mounds. I thought we were looking for pyramids in the USA. I do recall
                Message 7 of 26 , Sep 21, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Mike
                    As I stated in the beginning of this conversation I am no expert on the mounds. I thought we were looking for pyramids in the USA. I do recall forwarding a question some time back about a small pyramid structure inside an Ill. mound to Vince.
                    I will stay out of this conversation and let Vince give you all the expert information on the Marietti Ohio mounds.
                  William

                  --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                  From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                  To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 4:31 PM

                   

                  William Smith, Mike White;
                   
                  William Smith needs to do his research about the mound groups in Illinois and stop ignoring data. 
                   
                   The majority of data shows that Mounds in Southern Illinois predate the time period from around 1000 years ago.  In fact, this time period is represented by a very small and minor percentage of the lithic evidence that was found from mounds in southern Illinois.
                  The majority of evidence points to Late archaic moundbuilders, although the second largest group points to early archaic civilizations. 
                   
                  Alan Harn presented an excellent summary of the chronology of the southern illinois region in his book about American Bottom archaeological surveys.

                  http://books. google.com/ books?id= 7YV3uTZCKhQC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=archaic+american +bottom+region&source=bl&ots=XL-4EZ_Ky8&sig=Ya_4MDO3Uk82bKm 4qN_gGGrZ8kQ&hl=en&ei=7d-3Ssf5ENawtgf- _82tDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=archaic%20america n%20bottom% 20region&f=false

                  I have presented the data based on Lithic evidence from Southern Illinois in my historyofmonksmound website.
                   
                  Mike White is corect that grouping moundbuilder traditions into the "mississippian" tradition is completely inaccurate and cannot be supported by the data.
                   
                  Vince Barrows
                  www.freewebs. com/historyofmonksmound/
                   
                   
                   
                   


                  --- On Mon, 9/21/09, william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                  From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com>
                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                  To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 1:49 PM

                   
                  Hi Mike
                    I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                  William

                  --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                  From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                  Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                  To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

                   
                   
                     i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
                     if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
                     im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
                     i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
                     so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
                     it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
                     the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
                   
                  mike
                   
                   

                • mike white
                  thats a good point william. i wasnt aware of dams and locks altering the flow of the river. maybe there are published reports that give the info we need.
                  Message 8 of 26 , Sep 21, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                     
                       thats a good point william.  i wasnt aware of dams and locks altering the flow of the river.  maybe there are published reports that give the info we need. 
                       vince, we appreciate the link and your  input.  please be tactful, to not offend anyone.  i will read that article.  im pleased that they pushed the dates back for cahokia.  it appears to have been built to control river traffic, as a religious center, or to benefit from trade.  i would like to know the surface elevation near cahokia. 
                       it would be silly to accept unchallenged every 'fact' that the mainstream contend.  they are mere starting points for more intense study on our own. 
                       see the dates that they assign the hopewell and adena traditions - then consider the moundbuilder sites and works near portsmouth ohio, that were built very long ago, before the river changed course.  the present stream flows across some of their works. 
                       our lads deny ocean travel before columbus, so they assign different dates to relics found in the new world, than those found in the old.  i looked in a museum at newark ohio at stone and copper relics recovered from the mounds, that they dated 800 to 1100 ce.  the same type of relics are dated before 3000 bce in the old world.  the swastica was found in both places. 
                       william, you could present a fascinating report, with the data collected on river depths at marietta, and perhaps speaking of the older moundbuilder sites at portsmouth ohio.  estimating the time that the river takes to create a terrace, and which terrace almost all of the earthworks appear on, and how many terraces the river made below them.  i think these observed and measured findings may point much further back in time than the dates commonly assigned the two moundbuilder traditions of ohio.  cayce spoke of two eras in ohio for the moundbuilders, one in 10,000 bce, the latter circa 3000 bce.  i tend to prefer these dates in my reckoning. 
                       studies made by geologists on the river cutting thru stone beds on the mississippi headwaters, convince them that the river is only 20,000 years old. 
                     
                    mike
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 4:42 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                     

                    Hi Mike
                      Would we not have to have the high and low of the river as rainfall changes it? The following link has a lot of S&D info at the end as well as a good recorded history of the area before the dams and locks were constructed .http://oak. cats.ohiou. edu/~sandford/ Articles/ Ancient%20Works% 20at%20Marietta. html

                    william

                    --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                    From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                    To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:57 PM

                     

                     
                    hi william
                     
                       if you can measure from the ancient ramp to current river level, i will consult squiers and davis for their figure, then compute how long ago the ramp was usable. 
                     
                    mike
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:41 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                     

                    Hi Mike
                      Let me know when you plan to get to Ohio. I am not far from the area you are talking about. If I can be of any assistance please advise.
                    william

                    --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                    From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                    To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:26 PM

                     

                     
                       i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids.  there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay.  i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta. 
                     
                    mike
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                     

                    Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                    william

                    --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                    From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                    To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM

                     

                     
                    hi william, all
                     
                       there are pyramids in usa.  look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds.  ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south. 
                     
                    mike
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                     

                    Hi Mike
                      I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                    William

                    --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                    From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                    Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                    To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

                     

                     
                       i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
                       if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
                       im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
                       i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
                       so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
                       it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
                       the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
                     
                    mike
                     
                     

                  • william smith
                    Hi Mike   In a study completed by The University of Fla. by carbon dating peat bog  they were able to estimate the amount of water flow into the Gulf of
                    Message 9 of 26 , Sep 21, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Mike
                        In a study completed by The University of Fla. by carbon dating peat bog  they were able to estimate the amount of water flow into the Gulf of Mexico at the exit of the Mississippi. I would expect that the head waters of the Mississippi and its contributes would have been dramatically changed since the end of the last ice age about 10,000 years ago. Traces of ancient cultures north of the Ohio River may have been frozen before the last ice age or at least buried by the southern edge of the glaciers. Their is also talk of earthquakes in the north east that changed direction flow of some rivers in the mid 1500s. I will search my files to see if I have any data that may help in this area. I feel your comparison of river levels to dating the sites along the Ohio have a lot of merit and hopefully some of the readers on this site can provide testing methods that were not available during the time when the archaeologist were predicting the date of the site. If we are looking for an exact dating over this span of time we must also consider the rise of the plate supporting this area since the last ice age. When you look at the dates for the last three ice ages it seems to indicate they happen about every 22,000 years. If that is a fact then you would think that about 22,000 years ago the river and sea levels would be about the same as they are today. Has anyone looked at a core sample below the roadway for evidence of datable material?
                      As always your great ideas make me think outside of my small box.
                      William

                      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:

                      From: mike white <infoplz@...>
                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                      To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:23 PM

                       

                       
                         thats a good point william.  i wasnt aware of dams and locks altering the flow of the river.  maybe there are published reports that give the info we need. 
                         vince, we appreciate the link and your  input.  please be tactful, to not offend anyone.  i will read that article.  im pleased that they pushed the dates back for cahokia.  it appears to have been built to control river traffic, as a religious center, or to benefit from trade.  i would like to know the surface elevation near cahokia. 
                         it would be silly to accept unchallenged every 'fact' that the mainstream contend.  they are mere starting points for more intense study on our own. 
                         see the dates that they assign the hopewell and adena traditions - then consider the moundbuilder sites and works near portsmouth ohio, that were built very long ago, before the river changed course.  the present stream flows across some of their works. 
                         our lads deny ocean travel before columbus, so they assign different dates to relics found in the new world, than those found in the old.  i looked in a museum at newark ohio at stone and copper relics recovered from the mounds, that they dated 800 to 1100 ce.  the same type of relics are dated before 3000 bce in the old world.  the swastica was found in both places. 
                         william, you could present a fascinating report, with the data collected on river depths at marietta, and perhaps speaking of the older moundbuilder sites at portsmouth ohio.  estimating the time that the river takes to create a terrace, and which terrace almost all of the earthworks appear on, and how many terraces the river made below them.  i think these observed and measured findings may point much further back in time than the dates commonly assigned the two moundbuilder traditions of ohio.  cayce spoke of two eras in ohio for the moundbuilders, one in 10,000 bce, the latter circa 3000 bce.  i tend to prefer these dates in my reckoning. 
                         studies made by geologists on the river cutting thru stone beds on the mississippi headwaters, convince them that the river is only 20,000 years old. 
                       
                      mike
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 4:42 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                       

                      Hi Mike
                        Would we not have to have the high and low of the river as rainfall changes it? The following link has a lot of S&D info at the end as well as a good recorded history of the area before the dams and locks were constructed .http://oak. cats.ohiou. edu/~sandford/ Articles/ Ancient%20Works% 20at%20Marietta. html

                      william

                      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                      From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                      To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:57 PM

                       

                       
                      hi william
                       
                         if you can measure from the ancient ramp to current river level, i will consult squiers and davis for their figure, then compute how long ago the ramp was usable. 
                       
                      mike
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:41 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                       

                      Hi Mike
                        Let me know when you plan to get to Ohio. I am not far from the area you are talking about. If I can be of any assistance please advise.
                      william

                      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                      From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                      To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:26 PM

                       

                       
                         i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids.  there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay.  i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta. 
                       
                      mike
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                       

                      Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                      william

                      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                      From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                      To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM

                       

                       
                      hi william, all
                       
                         there are pyramids in usa.  look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds.  ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south. 
                       
                      mike
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                       

                      Hi Mike
                        I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                      William

                      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                      From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                      Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                      To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

                       

                       
                         i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
                         if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
                         im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
                         i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
                         so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
                         it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
                         the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
                       
                      mike
                       
                       

                    • Vincent Barrows
                      How does one determine Mississippian era? Many archaeologists assume all sites are of that time frame if pottery is found on the site. However, Some
                      Message 10 of 26 , Sep 21, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        How does one determine "Mississippian" era? Many archaeologists assume all sites are of that time frame if pottery is found on the site. However, Some archaeologists have found pottery firmly dated with late archaic and woodland sites.

                        Here are some precolumbian Inscriptions in pottery found in Southern Illinois

                        http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Erb%20and%20Mathews%20collections/?action=view&current=colorfulincisedpottery.jpg

                        http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Erb%20and%20Mathews%20collections/Pottery/?action=view&current=pottery.jpg

                        The last image is from a site south of Mascoutah, Illinois, and I contend it is of Ming dynasty connection.

                        Vince Barrows

                        --- On Mon, 9/21/09, william smith <wmsmithrock1@...> wrote:

                        From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                        To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 10:21 PM

                         

                        Hi Mike
                          In a study completed by The University of Fla. by carbon dating peat bog  they were able to estimate the amount of water flow into the Gulf of Mexico at the exit of the Mississippi. I would expect that the head waters of the Mississippi and its contributes would have been dramatically changed since the end of the last ice age about 10,000 years ago. Traces of ancient cultures north of the Ohio River may have been frozen before the last ice age or at least buried by the southern edge of the glaciers. Their is also talk of earthquakes in the north east that changed direction flow of some rivers in the mid 1500s. I will search my files to see if I have any data that may help in this area. I feel your comparison of river levels to dating the sites along the Ohio have a lot of merit and hopefully some of the readers on this site can provide testing methods that were not available during the time when the archaeologist were predicting the date of the site. If we are looking for an exact dating over this span of time we must also consider the rise of the plate supporting this area since the last ice age. When you look at the dates for the last three ice ages it seems to indicate they happen about every 22,000 years. If that is a fact then you would think that about 22,000 years ago the river and sea levels would be about the same as they are today. Has anyone looked at a core sample below the roadway for evidence of datable material?
                        As always your great ideas make me think outside of my small box.
                        William

                        --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                        From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                        To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:23 PM

                         

                         
                           thats a good point william.  i wasnt aware of dams and locks altering the flow of the river.  maybe there are published reports that give the info we need. 
                           vince, we appreciate the link and your  input.  please be tactful, to not offend anyone.  i will read that article.  im pleased that they pushed the dates back for cahokia.  it appears to have been built to control river traffic, as a religious center, or to benefit from trade.  i would like to know the surface elevation near cahokia. 
                           it would be silly to accept unchallenged every 'fact' that the mainstream contend.  they are mere starting points for more intense study on our own. 
                           see the dates that they assign the hopewell and adena traditions - then consider the moundbuilder sites and works near portsmouth ohio, that were built very long ago, before the river changed course.  the present stream flows across some of their works. 
                           our lads deny ocean travel before columbus, so they assign different dates to relics found in the new world, than those found in the old.  i looked in a museum at newark ohio at stone and copper relics recovered from the mounds, that they dated 800 to 1100 ce.  the same type of relics are dated before 3000 bce in the old world.  the swastica was found in both places. 
                           william, you could present a fascinating report, with the data collected on river depths at marietta, and perhaps speaking of the older moundbuilder sites at portsmouth ohio.  estimating the time that the river takes to create a terrace, and which terrace almost all of the earthworks appear on, and how many terraces the river made below them.  i think these observed and measured findings may point much further back in time than the dates commonly assigned the two moundbuilder traditions of ohio.  cayce spoke of two eras in ohio for the moundbuilders, one in 10,000 bce, the latter circa 3000 bce.  i tend to prefer these dates in my reckoning. 
                           studies made by geologists on the river cutting thru stone beds on the mississippi headwaters, convince them that the river is only 20,000 years old. 
                         
                        mike
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 4:42 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                         

                        Hi Mike
                          Would we not have to have the high and low of the river as rainfall changes it? The following link has a lot of S&D info at the end as well as a good recorded history of the area before the dams and locks were constructed .http://oak. cats.ohiou. edu/~sandford/ Articles/ Ancient%20Works% 20at%20Marietta. html

                        william

                        --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                        From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                        To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:57 PM

                         

                         
                        hi william
                         
                           if you can measure from the ancient ramp to current river level, i will consult squiers and davis for their figure, then compute how long ago the ramp was usable. 
                         
                        mike
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:41 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                         

                        Hi Mike
                          Let me know when you plan to get to Ohio. I am not far from the area you are talking about. If I can be of any assistance please advise.
                        william

                        --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                        From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                        To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:26 PM

                         

                         
                           i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids.  there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay.  i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta. 
                         
                        mike
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                         

                        Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                        william

                        --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                        From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                        To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM

                         

                         
                        hi william, all
                         
                           there are pyramids in usa.  look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds.  ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south. 
                         
                        mike
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                         

                        Hi Mike
                          I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                        William

                        --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                        From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                        Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                        To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

                         

                         
                           i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
                           if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
                           im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
                           i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
                           so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
                           it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
                           the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
                         
                        mike
                         
                         


                      • william smith
                        Hi Mike and Vince   I think the Ming dynasty is 1368 until 1644. Does that date the Ill. mound to 360 to 650 years old? Mike- Go to the latest version of
                        Message 11 of 26 , Sep 21, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Mike and Vince
                            I think the Ming dynasty is 1368 until 1644. Does that date the Ill. mound to 360 to 650 years old?
                          Mike- Go to the latest version of Google earth and you can read sea level readings. I find that the Ohio River is 585 ft. above sea level at Marietta. Zoom in to the closest level and locate the ramp and it will give the elevation which should indicate the change in depth, which would provide the distance you requested. This difference plus or minus the geological and man made changes may give an estimate to the age of the ramp. note: you may need to modify the selection boxes in the bottom left to get the exact information needed. This could be confirmed with a hand held GPS if needed.
                          best regards
                          William

                          --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                          From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                          To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 11:08 PM

                           

                          How does one determine "Mississippian" era? Many archaeologists assume all sites are of that time frame if pottery is found on the site. However, Some archaeologists have found pottery firmly dated with late archaic and woodland sites.

                          Here are some precolumbian Inscriptions in pottery found in Southern Illinois

                          http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Erb%20and% 20Mathews% 20collections/ ?action=view&current=colorfulinc isedpottery. jpg

                          http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Erb%20and% 20Mathews% 20collections/ Pottery/? action=view&current=pottery. jpg

                          The last image is from a site south of Mascoutah, Illinois, and I contend it is of Ming dynasty connection.

                          Vince Barrows

                          --- On Mon, 9/21/09, william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                          From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com>
                          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                          To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 10:21 PM

                           

                          Hi Mike
                            In a study completed by The University of Fla. by carbon dating peat bog  they were able to estimate the amount of water flow into the Gulf of Mexico at the exit of the Mississippi. I would expect that the head waters of the Mississippi and its contributes would have been dramatically changed since the end of the last ice age about 10,000 years ago. Traces of ancient cultures north of the Ohio River may have been frozen before the last ice age or at least buried by the southern edge of the glaciers. Their is also talk of earthquakes in the north east that changed direction flow of some rivers in the mid 1500s. I will search my files to see if I have any data that may help in this area. I feel your comparison of river levels to dating the sites along the Ohio have a lot of merit and hopefully some of the readers on this site can provide testing methods that were not available during the time when the archaeologist were predicting the date of the site. If we are looking for an exact dating over this span of time we must also consider the rise of the plate supporting this area since the last ice age. When you look at the dates for the last three ice ages it seems to indicate they happen about every 22,000 years. If that is a fact then you would think that about 22,000 years ago the river and sea levels would be about the same as they are today. Has anyone looked at a core sample below the roadway for evidence of datable material?
                          As always your great ideas make me think outside of my small box.
                          William

                          --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                          From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                          To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:23 PM

                           

                           
                             thats a good point william.  i wasnt aware of dams and locks altering the flow of the river.  maybe there are published reports that give the info we need. 
                             vince, we appreciate the link and your  input.  please be tactful, to not offend anyone.  i will read that article.  im pleased that they pushed the dates back for cahokia.  it appears to have been built to control river traffic, as a religious center, or to benefit from trade.  i would like to know the surface elevation near cahokia. 
                             it would be silly to accept unchallenged every 'fact' that the mainstream contend.  they are mere starting points for more intense study on our own. 
                             see the dates that they assign the hopewell and adena traditions - then consider the moundbuilder sites and works near portsmouth ohio, that were built very long ago, before the river changed course.  the present stream flows across some of their works. 
                             our lads deny ocean travel before columbus, so they assign different dates to relics found in the new world, than those found in the old.  i looked in a museum at newark ohio at stone and copper relics recovered from the mounds, that they dated 800 to 1100 ce.  the same type of relics are dated before 3000 bce in the old world.  the swastica was found in both places. 
                             william, you could present a fascinating report, with the data collected on river depths at marietta, and perhaps speaking of the older moundbuilder sites at portsmouth ohio.  estimating the time that the river takes to create a terrace, and which terrace almost all of the earthworks appear on, and how many terraces the river made below them.  i think these observed and measured findings may point much further back in time than the dates commonly assigned the two moundbuilder traditions of ohio.  cayce spoke of two eras in ohio for the moundbuilders, one in 10,000 bce, the latter circa 3000 bce.  i tend to prefer these dates in my reckoning. 
                             studies made by geologists on the river cutting thru stone beds on the mississippi headwaters, convince them that the river is only 20,000 years old. 
                           
                          mike
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 4:42 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                           

                          Hi Mike
                            Would we not have to have the high and low of the river as rainfall changes it? The following link has a lot of S&D info at the end as well as a good recorded history of the area before the dams and locks were constructed .http://oak. cats.ohiou. edu/~sandford/ Articles/ Ancient%20Works% 20at%20Marietta. html

                          william

                          --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                          From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                          To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:57 PM

                           

                           
                          hi william
                           
                             if you can measure from the ancient ramp to current river level, i will consult squiers and davis for their figure, then compute how long ago the ramp was usable. 
                           
                          mike
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:41 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                           

                          Hi Mike
                            Let me know when you plan to get to Ohio. I am not far from the area you are talking about. If I can be of any assistance please advise.
                          william

                          --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                          From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                          To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:26 PM

                           

                           
                             i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids.  there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay.  i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta. 
                           
                          mike
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                           

                          Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                          william

                          --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                          From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                          To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM

                           

                           
                          hi william, all
                           
                             there are pyramids in usa.  look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds.  ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south. 
                           
                          mike
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                           

                          Hi Mike
                            I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                          William

                          --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                          From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                          Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                          To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

                           

                           
                             i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
                             if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
                             im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
                             i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
                             so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
                             it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
                             the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
                           
                          mike
                           
                           


                        • mike white
                          worth a try, but may not be reliable enough. unless the latest google is more accurate. the google i have now is not, neither is my handheld gps. google
                          Message 12 of 26 , Sep 22, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                             
                                worth a try, but may not be reliable enough.  unless the latest google is more accurate.  the google i have now is not, neither is my handheld gps.  google shows my home elevation about 2150 ft, my gps gives 800m.  ive seen google give the same reading on top of a house, as the ground next to it.  but i will try it, when this question first came up, we didnt have gps and google earth. 
                               i wonder if the works at marietta were began by the lemurians, or as our lads say 'the mississippian tradition', then adopted by the adena, and later hopewell?  the ramp and truncated pyramid are an anomaly for the later groups. 
                               some are quick to say that the truncated pyramid proves a mexican origin, but if both regions were settled by lemurians at the start, its more accurate to name the founders of both. 
                               the same can be true of the mongolians.  our lads have long contended the native tribes originated in asia, due to the similarity to mongolians, instead of considering that the mongolians are an anomaly in asia, and probably originated in the americas.  which came first the chicken, or the eggs? 
                               the experts are slowly coming to realize the true antiquity of cultured man in the americas.  adopted fallacies have retarded this growth in understanding.  the clues were there from the beginning, but were ignored.  squiers told how deep the river had cut below the ramp at marietta.  bartram told of quality pottery found deep in a riverbank along the savanah river.  ive noted alignments of the monuments of ohio, that were oriented ne-sw.  this orientation is noted at many ancient sites around the world, pointing to a time prior to a poleshift, when most of the people of the world had a high culture, and 'worshipped' the sun.  its seen at amarna egypt.  eventually, the americas will be seen as the old world, and europe, asia, and africa - the new. 
                               you cant believe what is taught at universities.  they posit that amarna was a short-lived site began by akhenaten, and abandoned soon after his death.  examine amarna with google earth, you will note two aligments of buildings, one ne-sw, the other nnw-sse.  these point to north before two previous poleshifts, and indicate very remote times, certainly not 1400 bce.  amarna was occupied for thousands of years - i would guess at least 7,000 years, 10,000 bce to 3000 bce.  if taught was true, all of the buildings at amarna, except perhaps temples, would be oriented to polaris, the same polestar 1400 bce, as today.    
                             
                            mike
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 12:14 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                             

                            Hi Mike and Vince
                              I think the Ming dynasty is 1368 until 1644. Does that date the Ill. mound to 360 to 650 years old?
                            Mike- Go to the latest version of Google earth and you can read sea level readings. I find that the Ohio River is 585 ft. above sea level at Marietta. Zoom in to the closest level and locate the ramp and it will give the elevation which should indicate the change in depth, which would provide the distance you requested. This difference plus or minus the geological and man made changes may give an estimate to the age of the ramp. note: you may need to modify the selection boxes in the bottom left to get the exact information needed. This could be confirmed with a hand held GPS if needed.
                            best regards
                            William

                            --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:

                            From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
                            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                            To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 11:08 PM

                             

                            How does one determine "Mississippian" era? Many archaeologists assume all sites are of that time frame if pottery is found on the site. However, Some archaeologists have found pottery firmly dated with late archaic and woodland sites.

                            Here are some precolumbian Inscriptions in pottery found in Southern Illinois

                            http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Erb%20and% 20Mathews% 20collections/ ?action=view&current=colorfulinc isedpottery. jpg

                            http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Erb%20and% 20Mathews% 20collections/ Pottery/? action=view&current=pottery. jpg

                            The last image is from a site south of Mascoutah, Illinois, and I contend it is of Ming dynasty connection.

                            Vince Barrows

                            --- On Mon, 9/21/09, william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                            From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com>
                            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                            To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 10:21 PM

                             

                            Hi Mike
                              In a study completed by The University of Fla. by carbon dating peat bog  they were able to estimate the amount of water flow into the Gulf of Mexico at the exit of the Mississippi. I would expect that the head waters of the Mississippi and its contributes would have been dramatically changed since the end of the last ice age about 10,000 years ago. Traces of ancient cultures north of the Ohio River may have been frozen before the last ice age or at least buried by the southern edge of the glaciers. Their is also talk of earthquakes in the north east that changed direction flow of some rivers in the mid 1500s. I will search my files to see if I have any data that may help in this area. I feel your comparison of river levels to dating the sites along the Ohio have a lot of merit and hopefully some of the readers on this site can provide testing methods that were not available during the time when the archaeologist were predicting the date of the site. If we are looking for an exact dating over this span of time we must also consider the rise of the plate supporting this area since the last ice age. When you look at the dates for the last three ice ages it seems to indicate they happen about every 22,000 years. If that is a fact then you would think that about 22,000 years ago the river and sea levels would be about the same as they are today. Has anyone looked at a core sample below the roadway for evidence of datable material?
                            As always your great ideas make me think outside of my small box.
                            William

                            --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                            From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                            To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:23 PM

                             

                             
                               thats a good point william.  i wasnt aware of dams and locks altering the flow of the river.  maybe there are published reports that give the info we need. 
                               vince, we appreciate the link and your  input.  please be tactful, to not offend anyone.  i will read that article.  im pleased that they pushed the dates back for cahokia.  it appears to have been built to control river traffic, as a religious center, or to benefit from trade.  i would like to know the surface elevation near cahokia. 
                               it would be silly to accept unchallenged every 'fact' that the mainstream contend.  they are mere starting points for more intense study on our own. 
                               see the dates that they assign the hopewell and adena traditions - then consider the moundbuilder sites and works near portsmouth ohio, that were built very long ago, before the river changed course.  the present stream flows across some of their works. 
                               our lads deny ocean travel before columbus, so they assign different dates to relics found in the new world, than those found in the old.  i looked in a museum at newark ohio at stone and copper relics recovered from the mounds, that they dated 800 to 1100 ce.  the same type of relics are dated before 3000 bce in the old world.  the swastica was found in both places. 
                               william, you could present a fascinating report, with the data collected on river depths at marietta, and perhaps speaking of the older moundbuilder sites at portsmouth ohio.  estimating the time that the river takes to create a terrace, and which terrace almost all of the earthworks appear on, and how many terraces the river made below them.  i think these observed and measured findings may point much further back in time than the dates commonly assigned the two moundbuilder traditions of ohio.  cayce spoke of two eras in ohio for the moundbuilders, one in 10,000 bce, the latter circa 3000 bce.  i tend to prefer these dates in my reckoning. 
                               studies made by geologists on the river cutting thru stone beds on the mississippi headwaters, convince them that the river is only 20,000 years old. 
                             
                            mike
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 4:42 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                             

                            Hi Mike
                              Would we not have to have the high and low of the river as rainfall changes it? The following link has a lot of S&D info at the end as well as a good recorded history of the area before the dams and locks were constructed .http://oak. cats.ohiou. edu/~sandford/ Articles/ Ancient%20Works% 20at%20Marietta. html

                            william

                            --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                            From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                            To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:57 PM

                             

                             
                            hi william
                             
                               if you can measure from the ancient ramp to current river level, i will consult squiers and davis for their figure, then compute how long ago the ramp was usable. 
                             
                            mike
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:41 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                             

                            Hi Mike
                              Let me know when you plan to get to Ohio. I am not far from the area you are talking about. If I can be of any assistance please advise.
                            william

                            --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                            From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                            To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:26 PM

                             

                             
                               i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids.  there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay.  i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta. 
                             
                            mike
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                             

                            Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                            william

                            --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                            From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                            To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM

                             

                             
                            hi william, all
                             
                               there are pyramids in usa.  look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds.  ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south. 
                             
                            mike
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                             

                            Hi Mike
                              I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                            William

                            --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                            From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                            Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                            To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

                             

                             
                               i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
                               if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
                               im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
                               i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
                               so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
                               it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
                               the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
                             
                            mike
                             
                             


                          • Charles Mattox
                            All, In Ky. most of the mounds examined have proven to be of woodland culture (Adena and Hopewell). Hopewell made several earthworks and all of the Sacred
                            Message 13 of 26 , Sep 22, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              All,
                              In Ky. most of the mounds examined have proven to be of woodland culture (Adena and Hopewell).
                              Hopewell made several earthworks and all of the "Sacred Circle" sites I'm aware of are woodland and not mississippian.
                              Charles

                              --- On Tue, 9/22/09, mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:

                              From: mike white <infoplz@...>
                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                              To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 6:03 AM

                               
                               
                                  worth a try, but may not be reliable enough.  unless the latest google is more accurate.  the google i have now is not, neither is my handheld gps.  google shows my home elevation about 2150 ft, my gps gives 800m.  ive seen google give the same reading on top of a house, as the ground next to it.  but i will try it, when this question first came up, we didnt have gps and google earth. 
                                 i wonder if the works at marietta were began by the lemurians, or as our lads say 'the mississippian tradition', then adopted by the adena, and later hopewell?  the ramp and truncated pyramid are an anomaly for the later groups. 
                                 some are quick to say that the truncated pyramid proves a mexican origin, but if both regions were settled by lemurians at the start, its more accurate to name the founders of both. 
                                 the same can be true of the mongolians.  our lads have long contended the native tribes originated in asia, due to the similarity to mongolians, instead of considering that the mongolians are an anomaly in asia, and probably originated in the americas.  which came first the chicken, or the eggs? 
                                 the experts are slowly coming to realize the true antiquity of cultured man in the americas.  adopted fallacies have retarded this growth in understanding.  the clues were there from the beginning, but were ignored.  squiers told how deep the river had cut below the ramp at marietta.  bartram told of quality pottery found deep in a riverbank along the savanah river.  ive noted alignments of the monuments of ohio, that were oriented ne-sw.  this orientation is noted at many ancient sites around the world, pointing to a time prior to a poleshift, when most of the people of the world had a high culture, and 'worshipped' the sun.  its seen at amarna egypt.  eventually, the americas will be seen as the old world, and europe, asia, and africa - the new. 
                                 you cant believe what is taught at universities.  they posit that amarna was a short-lived site began by akhenaten, and abandoned soon after his death.  examine amarna with google earth, you will note two aligments of buildings, one ne-sw, the other nnw-sse.  these point to north before two previous poleshifts, and indicate very remote times, certainly not 1400 bce.  amarna was occupied for thousands of years - i would guess at least 7,000 years, 10,000 bce to 3000 bce.  if taught was true, all of the buildings at amarna, except perhaps temples, would be oriented to polaris, the same polestar 1400 bce, as today.    
                               
                              mike
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 12:14 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                               
                              Hi Mike and Vince
                                I think the Ming dynasty is 1368 until 1644. Does that date the Ill. mound to 360 to 650 years old?
                              Mike- Go to the latest version of Google earth and you can read sea level readings. I find that the Ohio River is 585 ft. above sea level at Marietta. Zoom in to the closest level and locate the ramp and it will give the elevation which should indicate the change in depth, which would provide the distance you requested. This difference plus or minus the geological and man made changes may give an estimate to the age of the ramp. note: you may need to modify the selection boxes in the bottom left to get the exact information needed. This could be confirmed with a hand held GPS if needed.
                              best regards
                              William

                              --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:

                              From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                              To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 11:08 PM

                               
                              How does one determine "Mississippian" era? Many archaeologists assume all sites are of that time frame if pottery is found on the site. However, Some archaeologists have found pottery firmly dated with late archaic and woodland sites.

                              Here are some precolumbian Inscriptions in pottery found in Southern Illinois

                              http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Erb%20and% 20Mathews% 20collections/ ?action=view&current=colorfulinc isedpottery. jpg

                              http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Erb%20and% 20Mathews% 20collections/ Pottery/? action=view&current=pottery. jpg

                              The last image is from a site south of Mascoutah, Illinois, and I contend it is of Ming dynasty connection.

                              Vince Barrows

                              --- On Mon, 9/21/09, william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                              From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com>
                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                              To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 10:21 PM

                               
                              Hi Mike
                                In a study completed by The University of Fla. by carbon dating peat bog  they were able to estimate the amount of water flow into the Gulf of Mexico at the exit of the Mississippi. I would expect that the head waters of the Mississippi and its contributes would have been dramatically changed since the end of the last ice age about 10,000 years ago. Traces of ancient cultures north of the Ohio River may have been frozen before the last ice age or at least buried by the southern edge of the glaciers. Their is also talk of earthquakes in the north east that changed direction flow of some rivers in the mid 1500s. I will search my files to see if I have any data that may help in this area. I feel your comparison of river levels to dating the sites along the Ohio have a lot of merit and hopefully some of the readers on this site can provide testing methods that were not available during the time when the archaeologist were predicting the date of the site. If we are looking for an exact dating over this span of time we must also consider the rise of the plate supporting this area since the last ice age. When you look at the dates for the last three ice ages it seems to indicate they happen about every 22,000 years. If that is a fact then you would think that about 22,000 years ago the river and sea levels would be about the same as they are today. Has anyone looked at a core sample below the roadway for evidence of datable material?
                              As always your great ideas make me think outside of my small box.
                              William

                              --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                              From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                              To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:23 PM

                               
                               
                                 thats a good point william.  i wasnt aware of dams and locks altering the flow of the river.  maybe there are published reports that give the info we need. 
                                 vince, we appreciate the link and your  input.  please be tactful, to not offend anyone.  i will read that article.  im pleased that they pushed the dates back for cahokia.  it appears to have been built to control river traffic, as a religious center, or to benefit from trade.  i would like to know the surface elevation near cahokia. 
                                 it would be silly to accept unchallenged every 'fact' that the mainstream contend.  they are mere starting points for more intense study on our own. 
                                 see the dates that they assign the hopewell and adena traditions - then consider the moundbuilder sites and works near portsmouth ohio, that were built very long ago, before the river changed course.  the present stream flows across some of their works. 
                                 our lads deny ocean travel before columbus, so they assign different dates to relics found in the new world, than those found in the old.  i looked in a museum at newark ohio at stone and copper relics recovered from the mounds, that they dated 800 to 1100 ce.  the same type of relics are dated before 3000 bce in the old world.  the swastica was found in both places. 
                                 william, you could present a fascinating report, with the data collected on river depths at marietta, and perhaps speaking of the older moundbuilder sites at portsmouth ohio.  estimating the time that the river takes to create a terrace, and which terrace almost all of the earthworks appear on, and how many terraces the river made below them.  i think these observed and measured findings may point much further back in time than the dates commonly assigned the two moundbuilder traditions of ohio.  cayce spoke of two eras in ohio for the moundbuilders, one in 10,000 bce, the latter circa 3000 bce.  i tend to prefer these dates in my reckoning. 
                                 studies made by geologists on the river cutting thru stone beds on the mississippi headwaters, convince them that the river is only 20,000 years old. 
                               
                              mike
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 4:42 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                               
                              Hi Mike
                                Would we not have to have the high and low of the river as rainfall changes it? The following link has a lot of S&D info at the end as well as a good recorded history of the area before the dams and locks were constructed .http://oak. cats.ohiou. edu/~sandford/ Articles/ Ancient%20Works% 20at%20Marietta. html

                              william

                              --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                              From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                              To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:57 PM

                               
                               
                              hi william
                               
                                 if you can measure from the ancient ramp to current river level, i will consult squiers and davis for their figure, then compute how long ago the ramp was usable. 
                               
                              mike
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:41 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                               
                              Hi Mike
                                Let me know when you plan to get to Ohio. I am not far from the area you are talking about. If I can be of any assistance please advise.
                              william

                              --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                              From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                              To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:26 PM

                               
                               
                                 i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids.  there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay.  i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta. 
                               
                              mike
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                               
                              Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                              william

                              --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                              From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                              To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM

                               
                               
                              hi william, all
                               
                                 there are pyramids in usa.  look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds.  ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south. 
                               
                              mike
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                               
                              Hi Mike
                                I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                              William

                              --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                              From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                              Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                              To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

                               
                               
                                 i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
                                 if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
                                 im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
                                 i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
                                 so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
                                 it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
                                 the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
                               
                              mike
                               
                               


                            • Vincent Barrows
                              William; The ming pottery is not from a mound, so it does not date a mound. Vince ... From: william smith Subject: Re:
                              Message 14 of 26 , Sep 22, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                William;
                                The ming pottery is not from a mound, so it does not date a mound.
                                Vince

                                --- On Tue, 9/22/09, william smith <wmsmithrock1@...> wrote:

                                From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 12:14 AM

                                 

                                Hi Mike and Vince
                                  I think the Ming dynasty is 1368 until 1644. Does that date the Ill. mound to 360 to 650 years old?
                                Mike- Go to the latest version of Google earth and you can read sea level readings. I find that the Ohio River is 585 ft. above sea level at Marietta. Zoom in to the closest level and locate the ramp and it will give the elevation which should indicate the change in depth, which would provide the distance you requested. This difference plus or minus the geological and man made changes may give an estimate to the age of the ramp. note: you may need to modify the selection boxes in the bottom left to get the exact information needed. This could be confirmed with a hand held GPS if needed.
                                best regards
                                William

                                --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
                                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 11:08 PM

                                 

                                How does one determine "Mississippian" era? Many archaeologists assume all sites are of that time frame if pottery is found on the site. However, Some archaeologists have found pottery firmly dated with late archaic and woodland sites.

                                Here are some precolumbian Inscriptions in pottery found in Southern Illinois

                                http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Erb%20and% 20Mathews% 20collections/ ?action=view&current=colorfulinc isedpottery. jpg

                                http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Erb%20and% 20Mathews% 20collections/ Pottery/? action=view&current=pottery. jpg

                                The last image is from a site south of Mascoutah, Illinois, and I contend it is of Ming dynasty connection.

                                Vince Barrows

                                --- On Mon, 9/21/09, william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com>
                                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 10:21 PM

                                 

                                Hi Mike
                                  In a study completed by The University of Fla. by carbon dating peat bog  they were able to estimate the amount of water flow into the Gulf of Mexico at the exit of the Mississippi. I would expect that the head waters of the Mississippi and its contributes would have been dramatically changed since the end of the last ice age about 10,000 years ago. Traces of ancient cultures north of the Ohio River may have been frozen before the last ice age or at least buried by the southern edge of the glaciers. Their is also talk of earthquakes in the north east that changed direction flow of some rivers in the mid 1500s. I will search my files to see if I have any data that may help in this area. I feel your comparison of river levels to dating the sites along the Ohio have a lot of merit and hopefully some of the readers on this site can provide testing methods that were not available during the time when the archaeologist were predicting the date of the site. If we are looking for an exact dating over this span of time we must also consider the rise of the plate supporting this area since the last ice age. When you look at the dates for the last three ice ages it seems to indicate they happen about every 22,000 years. If that is a fact then you would think that about 22,000 years ago the river and sea levels would be about the same as they are today. Has anyone looked at a core sample below the roadway for evidence of datable material?
                                As always your great ideas make me think outside of my small box.
                                William

                                --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:23 PM

                                 

                                 
                                   thats a good point william.  i wasnt aware of dams and locks altering the flow of the river.  maybe there are published reports that give the info we need. 
                                   vince, we appreciate the link and your  input.  please be tactful, to not offend anyone.  i will read that article.  im pleased that they pushed the dates back for cahokia.  it appears to have been built to control river traffic, as a religious center, or to benefit from trade.  i would like to know the surface elevation near cahokia. 
                                   it would be silly to accept unchallenged every 'fact' that the mainstream contend.  they are mere starting points for more intense study on our own. 
                                   see the dates that they assign the hopewell and adena traditions - then consider the moundbuilder sites and works near portsmouth ohio, that were built very long ago, before the river changed course.  the present stream flows across some of their works. 
                                   our lads deny ocean travel before columbus, so they assign different dates to relics found in the new world, than those found in the old.  i looked in a museum at newark ohio at stone and copper relics recovered from the mounds, that they dated 800 to 1100 ce.  the same type of relics are dated before 3000 bce in the old world.  the swastica was found in both places. 
                                   william, you could present a fascinating report, with the data collected on river depths at marietta, and perhaps speaking of the older moundbuilder sites at portsmouth ohio.  estimating the time that the river takes to create a terrace, and which terrace almost all of the earthworks appear on, and how many terraces the river made below them.  i think these observed and measured findings may point much further back in time than the dates commonly assigned the two moundbuilder traditions of ohio.  cayce spoke of two eras in ohio for the moundbuilders, one in 10,000 bce, the latter circa 3000 bce.  i tend to prefer these dates in my reckoning. 
                                   studies made by geologists on the river cutting thru stone beds on the mississippi headwaters, convince them that the river is only 20,000 years old. 
                                 
                                mike
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 4:42 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                 

                                Hi Mike
                                  Would we not have to have the high and low of the river as rainfall changes it? The following link has a lot of S&D info at the end as well as a good recorded history of the area before the dams and locks were constructed .http://oak. cats.ohiou. edu/~sandford/ Articles/ Ancient%20Works% 20at%20Marietta. html

                                william

                                --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:57 PM

                                 

                                 
                                hi william
                                 
                                   if you can measure from the ancient ramp to current river level, i will consult squiers and davis for their figure, then compute how long ago the ramp was usable. 
                                 
                                mike
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:41 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                 

                                Hi Mike
                                  Let me know when you plan to get to Ohio. I am not far from the area you are talking about. If I can be of any assistance please advise.
                                william

                                --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:26 PM

                                 

                                 
                                   i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids.  there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay.  i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta. 
                                 
                                mike
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                 

                                Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                                william

                                --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM

                                 

                                 
                                hi william, all
                                 
                                   there are pyramids in usa.  look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds.  ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south. 
                                 
                                mike
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                 

                                Hi Mike
                                  I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                                William

                                --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

                                 

                                 
                                   i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
                                   if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
                                   im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
                                   i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
                                   so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
                                   it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
                                   the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
                                 
                                mike
                                 
                                 



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                              • william smith
                                Hi Vince   Thanks for the correction that the pottery was not from a mound or related to dating a mound. I have heard their is a new process for dating
                                Message 15 of 26 , Sep 22, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Vince
                                    Thanks for the correction that the pottery was not from a mound or related to dating a mound. I have heard their is a new process for dating pottery, however the pottery has to have been fired. The test is to measure all the moisture the pottery has absorbed since its firing. The test assumes that all moisture was removed during the firing process and compares the observed amount of moisture accumulated with consideration to the surrounding soil where it was found then determining the length of time that pottery has been exposed to that specific environment.
                                  best regards
                                  william

                                  --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                                  From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                  To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 7:57 AM

                                   

                                  William;
                                  The ming pottery is not from a mound, so it does not date a mound.
                                  Vince

                                  --- On Tue, 9/22/09, william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                  From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com>
                                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                  To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 12:14 AM

                                   

                                  Hi Mike and Vince
                                    I think the Ming dynasty is 1368 until 1644. Does that date the Ill. mound to 360 to 650 years old?
                                  Mike- Go to the latest version of Google earth and you can read sea level readings. I find that the Ohio River is 585 ft. above sea level at Marietta. Zoom in to the closest level and locate the ramp and it will give the elevation which should indicate the change in depth, which would provide the distance you requested. This difference plus or minus the geological and man made changes may give an estimate to the age of the ramp. note: you may need to modify the selection boxes in the bottom left to get the exact information needed. This could be confirmed with a hand held GPS if needed.
                                  best regards
                                  William

                                  --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                  From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
                                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                  To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 11:08 PM

                                   

                                  How does one determine "Mississippian" era? Many archaeologists assume all sites are of that time frame if pottery is found on the site. However, Some archaeologists have found pottery firmly dated with late archaic and woodland sites.

                                  Here are some precolumbian Inscriptions in pottery found in Southern Illinois

                                  http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Erb%20and% 20Mathews% 20collections/ ?action=view&current=colorfulinc isedpottery. jpg

                                  http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Erb%20and% 20Mathews% 20collections/ Pottery/? action=view&current=pottery. jpg

                                  The last image is from a site south of Mascoutah, Illinois, and I contend it is of Ming dynasty connection.

                                  Vince Barrows

                                  --- On Mon, 9/21/09, william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                  From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com>
                                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                  To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 10:21 PM

                                   

                                  Hi Mike
                                    In a study completed by The University of Fla. by carbon dating peat bog  they were able to estimate the amount of water flow into the Gulf of Mexico at the exit of the Mississippi. I would expect that the head waters of the Mississippi and its contributes would have been dramatically changed since the end of the last ice age about 10,000 years ago. Traces of ancient cultures north of the Ohio River may have been frozen before the last ice age or at least buried by the southern edge of the glaciers. Their is also talk of earthquakes in the north east that changed direction flow of some rivers in the mid 1500s. I will search my files to see if I have any data that may help in this area. I feel your comparison of river levels to dating the sites along the Ohio have a lot of merit and hopefully some of the readers on this site can provide testing methods that were not available during the time when the archaeologist were predicting the date of the site. If we are looking for an exact dating over this span of time we must also consider the rise of the plate supporting this area since the last ice age. When you look at the dates for the last three ice ages it seems to indicate they happen about every 22,000 years. If that is a fact then you would think that about 22,000 years ago the river and sea levels would be about the same as they are today. Has anyone looked at a core sample below the roadway for evidence of datable material?
                                  As always your great ideas make me think outside of my small box.
                                  William

                                  --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                  From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                  To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:23 PM

                                   

                                   
                                     thats a good point william.  i wasnt aware of dams and locks altering the flow of the river.  maybe there are published reports that give the info we need. 
                                     vince, we appreciate the link and your  input.  please be tactful, to not offend anyone.  i will read that article.  im pleased that they pushed the dates back for cahokia.  it appears to have been built to control river traffic, as a religious center, or to benefit from trade.  i would like to know the surface elevation near cahokia. 
                                     it would be silly to accept unchallenged every 'fact' that the mainstream contend.  they are mere starting points for more intense study on our own. 
                                     see the dates that they assign the hopewell and adena traditions - then consider the moundbuilder sites and works near portsmouth ohio, that were built very long ago, before the river changed course.  the present stream flows across some of their works. 
                                     our lads deny ocean travel before columbus, so they assign different dates to relics found in the new world, than those found in the old.  i looked in a museum at newark ohio at stone and copper relics recovered from the mounds, that they dated 800 to 1100 ce.  the same type of relics are dated before 3000 bce in the old world.  the swastica was found in both places. 
                                     william, you could present a fascinating report, with the data collected on river depths at marietta, and perhaps speaking of the older moundbuilder sites at portsmouth ohio.  estimating the time that the river takes to create a terrace, and which terrace almost all of the earthworks appear on, and how many terraces the river made below them.  i think these observed and measured findings may point much further back in time than the dates commonly assigned the two moundbuilder traditions of ohio.  cayce spoke of two eras in ohio for the moundbuilders, one in 10,000 bce, the latter circa 3000 bce.  i tend to prefer these dates in my reckoning. 
                                     studies made by geologists on the river cutting thru stone beds on the mississippi headwaters, convince them that the river is only 20,000 years old. 
                                   
                                  mike
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 4:42 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                   

                                  Hi Mike
                                    Would we not have to have the high and low of the river as rainfall changes it? The following link has a lot of S&D info at the end as well as a good recorded history of the area before the dams and locks were constructed .http://oak. cats.ohiou. edu/~sandford/ Articles/ Ancient%20Works% 20at%20Marietta. html

                                  william

                                  --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                  From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                  To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:57 PM

                                   

                                   
                                  hi william
                                   
                                     if you can measure from the ancient ramp to current river level, i will consult squiers and davis for their figure, then compute how long ago the ramp was usable. 
                                   
                                  mike
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:41 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                   

                                  Hi Mike
                                    Let me know when you plan to get to Ohio. I am not far from the area you are talking about. If I can be of any assistance please advise.
                                  william

                                  --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                  From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                  To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:26 PM

                                   

                                   
                                     i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids.  there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay.  i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta. 
                                   
                                  mike
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                   

                                  Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                                  william

                                  --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                  From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                  To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM

                                   

                                   
                                  hi william, all
                                   
                                     there are pyramids in usa.  look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds.  ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south. 
                                   
                                  mike
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                   

                                  Hi Mike
                                    I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                                  William

                                  --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                  From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                  Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                  To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

                                   

                                   
                                     i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
                                     if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
                                     im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
                                     i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
                                     so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
                                     it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
                                     the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
                                   
                                  mike
                                   
                                   



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                                • william smith
                                  Hi Charles   I agree with you on the dating we have read about from the academic folks for the Ohio valley mounds, however as Mike has pointed out all sites
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Sep 22, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Charles
                                      I agree with you on the dating we have read about from the academic folks for the Ohio valley mounds, however as Mike has pointed out all sites do not seem to fit the same culture and should be addressed individually rather than grouped. Their may be some mounds and sites that seem quite different than others in the same area. An example may be the Marietta and the Newark Ohio mound sites. As Horn and Shively pointed out a few years ago the Newark mound sites have geometric layouts that show a very high degree of understanding of mathematics and time keeping.
                                    best regards
                                    William

                                    --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Charles Mattox <charlesmattox@...> wrote:

                                    From: Charles Mattox <charlesmattox@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                    To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 7:52 AM

                                     

                                    All,
                                    In Ky. most of the mounds examined have proven to be of woodland culture (Adena and Hopewell).
                                    Hopewell made several earthworks and all of the "Sacred Circle" sites I'm aware of are woodland and not mississippian.
                                    Charles

                                    --- On Tue, 9/22/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                    From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                    To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                    Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 6:03 AM

                                     
                                     
                                        worth a try, but may not be reliable enough.  unless the latest google is more accurate.  the google i have now is not, neither is my handheld gps.  google shows my home elevation about 2150 ft, my gps gives 800m.  ive seen google give the same reading on top of a house, as the ground next to it.  but i will try it, when this question first came up, we didnt have gps and google earth. 
                                       i wonder if the works at marietta were began by the lemurians, or as our lads say 'the mississippian tradition', then adopted by the adena, and later hopewell?  the ramp and truncated pyramid are an anomaly for the later groups. 
                                       some are quick to say that the truncated pyramid proves a mexican origin, but if both regions were settled by lemurians at the start, its more accurate to name the founders of both. 
                                       the same can be true of the mongolians.  our lads have long contended the native tribes originated in asia, due to the similarity to mongolians, instead of considering that the mongolians are an anomaly in asia, and probably originated in the americas.  which came first the chicken, or the eggs? 
                                       the experts are slowly coming to realize the true antiquity of cultured man in the americas.  adopted fallacies have retarded this growth in understanding.  the clues were there from the beginning, but were ignored.  squiers told how deep the river had cut below the ramp at marietta.  bartram told of quality pottery found deep in a riverbank along the savanah river.  ive noted alignments of the monuments of ohio, that were oriented ne-sw.  this orientation is noted at many ancient sites around the world, pointing to a time prior to a poleshift, when most of the people of the world had a high culture, and 'worshipped' the sun.  its seen at amarna egypt.  eventually, the americas will be seen as the old world, and europe, asia, and africa - the new. 
                                       you cant believe what is taught at universities.  they posit that amarna was a short-lived site began by akhenaten, and abandoned soon after his death.  examine amarna with google earth, you will note two aligments of buildings, one ne-sw, the other nnw-sse.  these point to north before two previous poleshifts, and indicate very remote times, certainly not 1400 bce.  amarna was occupied for thousands of years - i would guess at least 7,000 years, 10,000 bce to 3000 bce.  if taught was true, all of the buildings at amarna, except perhaps temples, would be oriented to polaris, the same polestar 1400 bce, as today.    
                                     
                                    mike
                                     
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 12:14 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                     
                                    Hi Mike and Vince
                                      I think the Ming dynasty is 1368 until 1644. Does that date the Ill. mound to 360 to 650 years old?
                                    Mike- Go to the latest version of Google earth and you can read sea level readings. I find that the Ohio River is 585 ft. above sea level at Marietta. Zoom in to the closest level and locate the ramp and it will give the elevation which should indicate the change in depth, which would provide the distance you requested. This difference plus or minus the geological and man made changes may give an estimate to the age of the ramp. note: you may need to modify the selection boxes in the bottom left to get the exact information needed. This could be confirmed with a hand held GPS if needed.
                                    best regards
                                    William

                                    --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                    From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
                                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                    To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                    Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 11:08 PM

                                     
                                    How does one determine "Mississippian" era? Many archaeologists assume all sites are of that time frame if pottery is found on the site. However, Some archaeologists have found pottery firmly dated with late archaic and woodland sites.

                                    Here are some precolumbian Inscriptions in pottery found in Southern Illinois

                                    http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Erb%20and% 20Mathews% 20collections/ ?action=view&current=colorfulinc isedpottery. jpg

                                    http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Erb%20and% 20Mathews% 20collections/ Pottery/? action=view&current=pottery. jpg

                                    The last image is from a site south of Mascoutah, Illinois, and I contend it is of Ming dynasty connection.

                                    Vince Barrows

                                    --- On Mon, 9/21/09, william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                    From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com>
                                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                    To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                    Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 10:21 PM

                                     
                                    Hi Mike
                                      In a study completed by The University of Fla. by carbon dating peat bog  they were able to estimate the amount of water flow into the Gulf of Mexico at the exit of the Mississippi. I would expect that the head waters of the Mississippi and its contributes would have been dramatically changed since the end of the last ice age about 10,000 years ago. Traces of ancient cultures north of the Ohio River may have been frozen before the last ice age or at least buried by the southern edge of the glaciers. Their is also talk of earthquakes in the north east that changed direction flow of some rivers in the mid 1500s. I will search my files to see if I have any data that may help in this area. I feel your comparison of river levels to dating the sites along the Ohio have a lot of merit and hopefully some of the readers on this site can provide testing methods that were not available during the time when the archaeologist were predicting the date of the site. If we are looking for an exact dating over this span of time we must also consider the rise of the plate supporting this area since the last ice age. When you look at the dates for the last three ice ages it seems to indicate they happen about every 22,000 years. If that is a fact then you would think that about 22,000 years ago the river and sea levels would be about the same as they are today. Has anyone looked at a core sample below the roadway for evidence of datable material?
                                    As always your great ideas make me think outside of my small box.
                                    William

                                    --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                    From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                    To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                    Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:23 PM

                                     
                                     
                                       thats a good point william.  i wasnt aware of dams and locks altering the flow of the river.  maybe there are published reports that give the info we need. 
                                       vince, we appreciate the link and your  input.  please be tactful, to not offend anyone.  i will read that article.  im pleased that they pushed the dates back for cahokia.  it appears to have been built to control river traffic, as a religious center, or to benefit from trade.  i would like to know the surface elevation near cahokia. 
                                       it would be silly to accept unchallenged every 'fact' that the mainstream contend.  they are mere starting points for more intense study on our own. 
                                       see the dates that they assign the hopewell and adena traditions - then consider the moundbuilder sites and works near portsmouth ohio, that were built very long ago, before the river changed course.  the present stream flows across some of their works. 
                                       our lads deny ocean travel before columbus, so they assign different dates to relics found in the new world, than those found in the old.  i looked in a museum at newark ohio at stone and copper relics recovered from the mounds, that they dated 800 to 1100 ce.  the same type of relics are dated before 3000 bce in the old world.  the swastica was found in both places. 
                                       william, you could present a fascinating report, with the data collected on river depths at marietta, and perhaps speaking of the older moundbuilder sites at portsmouth ohio.  estimating the time that the river takes to create a terrace, and which terrace almost all of the earthworks appear on, and how many terraces the river made below them.  i think these observed and measured findings may point much further back in time than the dates commonly assigned the two moundbuilder traditions of ohio.  cayce spoke of two eras in ohio for the moundbuilders, one in 10,000 bce, the latter circa 3000 bce.  i tend to prefer these dates in my reckoning. 
                                       studies made by geologists on the river cutting thru stone beds on the mississippi headwaters, convince them that the river is only 20,000 years old. 
                                     
                                    mike
                                     
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 4:42 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                     
                                    Hi Mike
                                      Would we not have to have the high and low of the river as rainfall changes it? The following link has a lot of S&D info at the end as well as a good recorded history of the area before the dams and locks were constructed .http://oak. cats.ohiou. edu/~sandford/ Articles/ Ancient%20Works% 20at%20Marietta. html

                                    william

                                    --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                    From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                    To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                    Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:57 PM

                                     
                                     
                                    hi william
                                     
                                       if you can measure from the ancient ramp to current river level, i will consult squiers and davis for their figure, then compute how long ago the ramp was usable. 
                                     
                                    mike
                                     
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:41 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                     
                                    Hi Mike
                                      Let me know when you plan to get to Ohio. I am not far from the area you are talking about. If I can be of any assistance please advise.
                                    william

                                    --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                    From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                    To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                    Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:26 PM

                                     
                                     
                                       i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids.  there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay.  i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta. 
                                     
                                    mike
                                     
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                     
                                    Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                                    william

                                    --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                    From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                    To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                    Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM

                                     
                                     
                                    hi william, all
                                     
                                       there are pyramids in usa.  look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds.  ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south. 
                                     
                                    mike
                                     
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                     
                                    Hi Mike
                                      I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                                    William

                                    --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                    From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                    Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                    To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                    Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

                                     
                                     
                                       i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
                                       if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
                                       im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
                                       i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
                                       so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
                                       it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
                                       the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
                                     
                                    mike
                                     
                                     


                                  • william smith
                                    Hi Mike   If we fail to get a river bed or height that is reliable it may be possible to look at the other end of the river. Poverty Point, LA. is said to be
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Sep 22, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Mike
                                        If we fail to get a river bed or height that is reliable it may be possible to look at the other end of the river. Poverty Point, LA. is said to be one of the oldest sites where large groups of people were living in the USA. and I think this is about 2200 years ago. I understand that this location is about 75 miles north of the current Gulf of Mexico shore line and it is the southern most area where large hardwood trees were growing. By dating the peat bog between Poverty Point and the Gulf shore would give a time scale for the sediment build up. If the Mississippi was flowing at a rate of four times the volume at this time,one would assume the Ohio would be the same. If the depth of the Ohio River at Marietta was say 30 ft. (est) today with sides angles of 45 degrees or say use the true cross section of the river in the form of a V with the width of the river at its current level and the depth of the current water level to establish this triangle may be another way to est. the date of the ramp. This would be a very crude est, however most likely no more than other approaches with all the variances we have to work with.
                                      William

                                      --- On Tue, 9/22/09, mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:

                                      From: mike white <infoplz@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                      To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Tuesday, September 22, 2009, 6:03 AM

                                       

                                       
                                          worth a try, but may not be reliable enough.  unless the latest google is more accurate.  the google i have now is not, neither is my handheld gps.  google shows my home elevation about 2150 ft, my gps gives 800m.  ive seen google give the same reading on top of a house, as the ground next to it.  but i will try it, when this question first came up, we didnt have gps and google earth. 
                                         i wonder if the works at marietta were began by the lemurians, or as our lads say 'the mississippian tradition', then adopted by the adena, and later hopewell?  the ramp and truncated pyramid are an anomaly for the later groups. 
                                         some are quick to say that the truncated pyramid proves a mexican origin, but if both regions were settled by lemurians at the start, its more accurate to name the founders of both. 
                                         the same can be true of the mongolians.  our lads have long contended the native tribes originated in asia, due to the similarity to mongolians, instead of considering that the mongolians are an anomaly in asia, and probably originated in the americas.  which came first the chicken, or the eggs? 
                                         the experts are slowly coming to realize the true antiquity of cultured man in the americas.  adopted fallacies have retarded this growth in understanding.  the clues were there from the beginning, but were ignored.  squiers told how deep the river had cut below the ramp at marietta.  bartram told of quality pottery found deep in a riverbank along the savanah river.  ive noted alignments of the monuments of ohio, that were oriented ne-sw.  this orientation is noted at many ancient sites around the world, pointing to a time prior to a poleshift, when most of the people of the world had a high culture, and 'worshipped' the sun.  its seen at amarna egypt.  eventually, the americas will be seen as the old world, and europe, asia, and africa - the new. 
                                         you cant believe what is taught at universities.  they posit that amarna was a short-lived site began by akhenaten, and abandoned soon after his death.  examine amarna with google earth, you will note two aligments of buildings, one ne-sw, the other nnw-sse.  these point to north before two previous poleshifts, and indicate very remote times, certainly not 1400 bce.  amarna was occupied for thousands of years - i would guess at least 7,000 years, 10,000 bce to 3000 bce.  if taught was true, all of the buildings at amarna, except perhaps temples, would be oriented to polaris, the same polestar 1400 bce, as today.    
                                       
                                      mike
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 12:14 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                       

                                      Hi Mike and Vince
                                        I think the Ming dynasty is 1368 until 1644. Does that date the Ill. mound to 360 to 650 years old?
                                      Mike- Go to the latest version of Google earth and you can read sea level readings. I find that the Ohio River is 585 ft. above sea level at Marietta. Zoom in to the closest level and locate the ramp and it will give the elevation which should indicate the change in depth, which would provide the distance you requested. This difference plus or minus the geological and man made changes may give an estimate to the age of the ramp. note: you may need to modify the selection boxes in the bottom left to get the exact information needed. This could be confirmed with a hand held GPS if needed.
                                      best regards
                                      William

                                      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                      From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
                                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                      To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 11:08 PM

                                       

                                      How does one determine "Mississippian" era? Many archaeologists assume all sites are of that time frame if pottery is found on the site. However, Some archaeologists have found pottery firmly dated with late archaic and woodland sites.

                                      Here are some precolumbian Inscriptions in pottery found in Southern Illinois

                                      http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Erb%20and% 20Mathews% 20collections/ ?action=view&current=colorfulinc isedpottery. jpg

                                      http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Erb%20and% 20Mathews% 20collections/ Pottery/? action=view&current=pottery. jpg

                                      The last image is from a site south of Mascoutah, Illinois, and I contend it is of Ming dynasty connection.

                                      Vince Barrows

                                      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com> wrote:

                                      From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com>
                                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                      To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 10:21 PM

                                       

                                      Hi Mike
                                        In a study completed by The University of Fla. by carbon dating peat bog  they were able to estimate the amount of water flow into the Gulf of Mexico at the exit of the Mississippi. I would expect that the head waters of the Mississippi and its contributes would have been dramatically changed since the end of the last ice age about 10,000 years ago. Traces of ancient cultures north of the Ohio River may have been frozen before the last ice age or at least buried by the southern edge of the glaciers. Their is also talk of earthquakes in the north east that changed direction flow of some rivers in the mid 1500s. I will search my files to see if I have any data that may help in this area. I feel your comparison of river levels to dating the sites along the Ohio have a lot of merit and hopefully some of the readers on this site can provide testing methods that were not available during the time when the archaeologist were predicting the date of the site. If we are looking for an exact dating over this span of time we must also consider the rise of the plate supporting this area since the last ice age. When you look at the dates for the last three ice ages it seems to indicate they happen about every 22,000 years. If that is a fact then you would think that about 22,000 years ago the river and sea levels would be about the same as they are today. Has anyone looked at a core sample below the roadway for evidence of datable material?
                                      As always your great ideas make me think outside of my small box.
                                      William

                                      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                      From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                      To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 5:23 PM

                                       

                                       
                                         thats a good point william.  i wasnt aware of dams and locks altering the flow of the river.  maybe there are published reports that give the info we need. 
                                         vince, we appreciate the link and your  input.  please be tactful, to not offend anyone.  i will read that article.  im pleased that they pushed the dates back for cahokia.  it appears to have been built to control river traffic, as a religious center, or to benefit from trade.  i would like to know the surface elevation near cahokia. 
                                         it would be silly to accept unchallenged every 'fact' that the mainstream contend.  they are mere starting points for more intense study on our own. 
                                         see the dates that they assign the hopewell and adena traditions - then consider the moundbuilder sites and works near portsmouth ohio, that were built very long ago, before the river changed course.  the present stream flows across some of their works. 
                                         our lads deny ocean travel before columbus, so they assign different dates to relics found in the new world, than those found in the old.  i looked in a museum at newark ohio at stone and copper relics recovered from the mounds, that they dated 800 to 1100 ce.  the same type of relics are dated before 3000 bce in the old world.  the swastica was found in both places. 
                                         william, you could present a fascinating report, with the data collected on river depths at marietta, and perhaps speaking of the older moundbuilder sites at portsmouth ohio.  estimating the time that the river takes to create a terrace, and which terrace almost all of the earthworks appear on, and how many terraces the river made below them.  i think these observed and measured findings may point much further back in time than the dates commonly assigned the two moundbuilder traditions of ohio.  cayce spoke of two eras in ohio for the moundbuilders, one in 10,000 bce, the latter circa 3000 bce.  i tend to prefer these dates in my reckoning. 
                                         studies made by geologists on the river cutting thru stone beds on the mississippi headwaters, convince them that the river is only 20,000 years old. 
                                       
                                      mike
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 4:42 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                       

                                      Hi Mike
                                        Would we not have to have the high and low of the river as rainfall changes it? The following link has a lot of S&D info at the end as well as a good recorded history of the area before the dams and locks were constructed .http://oak. cats.ohiou. edu/~sandford/ Articles/ Ancient%20Works% 20at%20Marietta. html

                                      william

                                      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                      From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                      To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:57 PM

                                       

                                       
                                      hi william
                                       
                                         if you can measure from the ancient ramp to current river level, i will consult squiers and davis for their figure, then compute how long ago the ramp was usable. 
                                       
                                      mike
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:41 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                       

                                      Hi Mike
                                        Let me know when you plan to get to Ohio. I am not far from the area you are talking about. If I can be of any assistance please advise.
                                      william

                                      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                      From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                      To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:26 PM

                                       

                                       
                                         i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids.  there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay.  i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta. 
                                       
                                      mike
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                       

                                      Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                                      william

                                      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                      From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                      To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM

                                       

                                       
                                      hi william, all
                                       
                                         there are pyramids in usa.  look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds.  ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south. 
                                       
                                      mike
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition

                                       

                                      Hi Mike
                                        I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                                      William

                                      --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                      From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                      Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                      To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                      Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

                                       

                                       
                                         i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions. 
                                         if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition.  im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding.  this was true in greater ohio, and in the south.  as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia.  i dont see much similarity between these sites.  it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time. 
                                         im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information. 
                                         i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river.  that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids.  these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce.  much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then. 
                                         so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent.  cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest. 
                                         it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made.  lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds. 
                                         the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time.  we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building. 
                                       
                                      mike
                                       
                                       


                                    • wmsmithrock1
                                      Hi Mike A little home work shows the information you requested about the age of the pyramid earthworks at Marietta, Ohio. The current mean level of the Ohio
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Sep 23, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi Mike
                                        A little home work shows the information you requested about the age of the pyramid earthworks at Marietta, Ohio.
                                        The current mean level of the Ohio River is 586 ft. Above sea level.
                                        The flow rate is 20,000 cubic ft./s
                                        The top width of the river is 1800 ft.
                                        The average depth is 20 ft.
                                        The top of the ramp is 610 ft. Above sea level.
                                        The top of the ramp to the river is 24 ft.(vertical measurement)
                                        The est for construction of the ramp to compensate for 100 year flood plan is 10 ft.
                                        The outflow in volume of the Mississippi 10,000 years ago is four times the volumn of today.
                                        The estimate of time when the river height was such that the ramp would have been effective for use seems to indicate the river would have been at a normal flow of 14 ft. higher than its current level.
                                        Now - 586 ft.
                                        2500 years ago - 591 ft.
                                        5000 years ago - 596 ft.
                                        7500 years ago - 606 ft.
                                        10,000 years ago -616 ft.
                                        My est for use of this site was 6,000 years ago and could not have been in use over 8000 years ago. I do find it interesting that this information even though it has a lot of assumptions falls into the est. time frame of the oldest stories in the bible. hmmm
                                        best regards
                                        william



                                        --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white" <infoplz@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > to keep an open-mind, we arent certain that the pyramids of marietta were built by the hopewell or adena. they may relate to those of the deep south, for no other truncated temple pyramids were built in ohio, as far as i know. judging by the cut of the river since the original temple ramp was constructed, it was thousands of years ago. i think squiers and davis said the river was 30 ft below the ramp in 1850 ce. we can check their figure, and see how much deeper the bed is cut in 159 years, then estimate how long since the old ramp was at river level, i bet over 5,000 years. this needs to be done william.
                                        >
                                        > mike
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: mike white
                                        > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:26 PM
                                        > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids. there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay. i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta.
                                        >
                                        > mike
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: william smith
                                        > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                                        > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                                        > william
                                        >
                                        > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > From: mike white <infoplz@...>
                                        > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                        > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > hi william, all
                                        >
                                        > there are pyramids in usa. look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds. ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south.
                                        >
                                        > mike
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: william smith
                                        > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                                        > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hi Mike
                                        > I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                                        > William
                                        >
                                        > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                        > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                        > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions.
                                        > if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition. im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding. this was true in greater ohio, and in the south. as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia. i dont see much similarity between these sites. it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time.
                                        > im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information.
                                        > i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river. that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids. these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce. much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then.
                                        > so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent. cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest.
                                        > it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made. lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds.
                                        > the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time. we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building.
                                        >
                                        > mike
                                        >
                                      • mike white
                                        hi william, all where did you find your info? its interesting. you estimate use of the ramp circe 4000 bce. from cayce, im led to believe there were two
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Sep 23, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                           
                                          hi william, all
                                           
                                             where did you find your info?  its interesting.  you estimate use of the ramp circe 4000 bce. 
                                             from cayce, im led to believe there were two phases of ohio moundbuilders, 10,000 bce, and 3000 bce.  this suggests about 10,000 bce for the adena, and 3000 bce for the hopewell.  i know this is far from accepted dating.  the geometrical works at newark, etc, he said were by the atlanteans, associated with the earlier group. 
                                             canoes dont need a ramp.  i wonder how large of boats were in use then? 
                                             the elaborate earthworks were carefully designed according to plans, and depicted something important to the ancients.  as far as i know, the meaning continues to elude us. 
                                             its possible that the face of the land was far different back then.  ohio could have been on the seashore.  digs turned up much use of seashells, and many depictions of parrots, and other tropical bird feathers.  in ohio, as in coastal peru, our lads were fast to conclude that this proved extensive trade with remote places, instead of considering the climate or terrain was different then.  people tend to rely upon things obtained close at hand. 
                                              given current knowledge, its hard to visualize what america was like in 50,000 bce.  that was before the mississippi river flowed as it does now.  inland seas may have come and gone a few times since then.  lemurians had settled in ga and ala, and in w pa and w ny.  pittsburg pa is not far from marietta oh, right? 
                                           
                                          mike
                                           
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:56 PM
                                          Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: mississippian tradition

                                           

                                          Hi Mike
                                          A little home work shows the information you requested about the age of the pyramid earthworks at Marietta, Ohio.
                                          The current mean level of the Ohio River is 586 ft. Above sea level.
                                          The flow rate is 20,000 cubic ft./s
                                          The top width of the river is 1800 ft.
                                          The average depth is 20 ft.
                                          The top of the ramp is 610 ft. Above sea level.
                                          The top of the ramp to the river is 24 ft.(vertical measurement)
                                          The est for construction of the ramp to compensate for 100 year flood plan is 10 ft.
                                          The outflow in volume of the Mississippi 10,000 years ago is four times the volumn of today.
                                          The estimate of time when the river height was such that the ramp would have been effective for use seems to indicate the river would have been at a normal flow of 14 ft. higher than its current level.
                                          Now - 586 ft.
                                          2500 years ago - 591 ft.
                                          5000 years ago - 596 ft.
                                          7500 years ago - 606 ft.
                                          10,000 years ago -616 ft.
                                          My est for use of this site was 6,000 years ago and could not have been in use over 8000 years ago. I do find it interesting that this information even though it has a lot of assumptions falls into the est. time frame of the oldest stories in the bible. hmmm
                                          best regards
                                          william

                                          --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white" <infoplz@... > wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > to keep an open-mind, we arent certain that the pyramids of marietta were built by the hopewell or adena. they may relate to those of the deep south, for no other truncated temple pyramids were built in ohio, as far as i know. judging by the cut of the river since the original temple ramp was constructed, it was thousands of years ago. i think squiers and davis said the river was 30 ft below the ramp in 1850 ce. we can check their figure, and see how much deeper the bed is cut in 159 years, then estimate how long since the old ramp was at river level, i bet over 5,000 years. this needs to be done william.
                                          >
                                          > mike
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: mike white
                                          > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                          > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:26 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids. there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay. i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta.
                                          >
                                          > mike
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: william smith
                                          > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                          > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                                          > william
                                          >
                                          > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@... > wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > From: mike white <infoplz@... >
                                          > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                          > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                          > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > hi william, all
                                          >
                                          > there are pyramids in usa. look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds. ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south.
                                          >
                                          > mike
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: william smith
                                          > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                          > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hi Mike
                                          > I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                                          > William
                                          >
                                          > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                          > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                          > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                          > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions.
                                          > if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition. im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding. this was true in greater ohio, and in the south. as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia. i dont see much similarity between these sites. it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time.
                                          > im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information.
                                          > i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river. that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids. these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce. much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then.
                                          > so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent. cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest.
                                          > it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made. lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds.
                                          > the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time. we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building.
                                          >
                                          > mike
                                          >

                                        • william smith
                                          Hi Mike   I should have added the source each piece of data came from in my reply which I will add now. The current mean level of the Ohio River is 586 ft.
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Sep 24, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hi Mike
                                              I should have added the source each piece of data came from in my reply which I will add now.
                                            The current mean level of the Ohio River is 586 ft. Above sea level. (google earth)
                                            The flow rate is 20,000 cubic ft./s (USGS) ( http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2006/1159/report.html#1005228)  
                                            The top width of the river is 1800 ft.(google earth)
                                            The average depth is 20 ft. (USGS)
                                            The top of the ramp is 610 ft. Above sea level. (google earth)
                                            The top of the ramp to the river is 24 ft.(vertical measurement) (google earth)
                                            The est for construction of the ramp to compensate for 100 year flood plan is 10 ft. (my est based on current ramps in use)
                                            The outflow in volume of the Mississippi 10,000 years ago is four times the volumn of today. (memory from a study of Gulf depths performed by The University of Fla.)
                                              I wonder what date would be generated if this same scale and data was applied to the Ill. mounds next to the Mississippi or other known sites along the waterway?
                                            best regards
                                            William
                                            --- On Thu, 9/24/09, mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:

                                            From: mike white <infoplz@...>
                                            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: mississippian tradition
                                            To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 2:17 AM

                                             

                                             
                                            hi william, all
                                             
                                               where did you find your info?  its interesting.  you estimate use of the ramp circe 4000 bce. 
                                               from cayce, im led to believe there were two phases of ohio moundbuilders, 10,000 bce, and 3000 bce.  this suggests about 10,000 bce for the adena, and 3000 bce for the hopewell.  i know this is far from accepted dating.  the geometrical works at newark, etc, he said were by the atlanteans, associated with the earlier group. 
                                               canoes dont need a ramp.  i wonder how large of boats were in use then? 
                                               the elaborate earthworks were carefully designed according to plans, and depicted something important to the ancients.  as far as i know, the meaning continues to elude us. 
                                               its possible that the face of the land was far different back then.  ohio could have been on the seashore.  digs turned up much use of seashells, and many depictions of parrots, and other tropical bird feathers.  in ohio, as in coastal peru, our lads were fast to conclude that this proved extensive trade with remote places, instead of considering the climate or terrain was different then.  people tend to rely upon things obtained close at hand. 
                                                given current knowledge, its hard to visualize what america was like in 50,000 bce.  that was before the mississippi river flowed as it does now.  inland seas may have come and gone a few times since then.  lemurians had settled in ga and ala, and in w pa and w ny.  pittsburg pa is not far from marietta oh, right? 
                                             
                                            mike
                                             
                                             
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:56 PM
                                            Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: mississippian tradition

                                             

                                            Hi Mike
                                            A little home work shows the information you requested about the age of the pyramid earthworks at Marietta, Ohio.
                                            The current mean level of the Ohio River is 586 ft. Above sea level.
                                            The flow rate is 20,000 cubic ft./s
                                            The top width of the river is 1800 ft.
                                            The average depth is 20 ft.
                                            The top of the ramp is 610 ft. Above sea level.
                                            The top of the ramp to the river is 24 ft.(vertical measurement)
                                            The est for construction of the ramp to compensate for 100 year flood plan is 10 ft.
                                            The outflow in volume of the Mississippi 10,000 years ago is four times the volumn of today.
                                            The estimate of time when the river height was such that the ramp would have been effective for use seems to indicate the river would have been at a normal flow of 14 ft. higher than its current level.
                                            Now - 586 ft.
                                            2500 years ago - 591 ft.
                                            5000 years ago - 596 ft.
                                            7500 years ago - 606 ft.
                                            10,000 years ago -616 ft.
                                            My est for use of this site was 6,000 years ago and could not have been in use over 8000 years ago. I do find it interesting that this information even though it has a lot of assumptions falls into the est. time frame of the oldest stories in the bible. hmmm
                                            best regards
                                            william

                                            --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white" <infoplz@... > wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > to keep an open-mind, we arent certain that the pyramids of marietta were built by the hopewell or adena. they may relate to those of the deep south, for no other truncated temple pyramids were built in ohio, as far as i know. judging by the cut of the river since the original temple ramp was constructed, it was thousands of years ago. i think squiers and davis said the river was 30 ft below the ramp in 1850 ce. we can check their figure, and see how much deeper the bed is cut in 159 years, then estimate how long since the old ramp was at river level, i bet over 5,000 years. this needs to be done william.
                                            >
                                            > mike
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: mike white
                                            > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                            > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:26 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids. there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay. i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta.
                                            >
                                            > mike
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: william smith
                                            > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                            > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                                            > william
                                            >
                                            > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@... > wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > From: mike white <infoplz@... >
                                            > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                            > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                            > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > hi william, all
                                            >
                                            > there are pyramids in usa. look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds. ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south.
                                            >
                                            > mike
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: william smith
                                            > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                            > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Hi Mike
                                            > I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                                            > William
                                            >
                                            > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                            > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                            > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                            > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions.
                                            > if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition. im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding. this was true in greater ohio, and in the south. as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia. i dont see much similarity between these sites. it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time.
                                            > im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information.
                                            > i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river. that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids. these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce. much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then.
                                            > so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent. cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest.
                                            > it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made. lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds.
                                            > the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time. we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building.
                                            >
                                            > mike
                                            >

                                          • mike white
                                            thanks for the info william. later i will look up the measurements done by squiers and davis circa 1855. without a ramp the other ancient sites wont reveal
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Sep 24, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                               
                                                 thanks for the info william.  later i will look up the measurements done by squiers and davis circa 1855. 
                                                 without a ramp the other ancient sites wont reveal much, unless they uncover a pavement leading to the river. 
                                                 the ohio is a big river, 1800 ft width, without knowing the size of boats the ancients used, dating can be difficult.  a big boat or a double decker, may have needed a higher ramp to discharge people or goods. 
                                                 im wondering if the geologists estimated the age of the ohio river.  its certain that at least one of the rivers near there changed course during the time of cultured man.  the falls at louisville appear to be a recent geological formation, with little bed cutting thru the rock. 
                                               
                                              mike
                                               
                                               
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:39 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: mississippian tradition

                                               

                                              Hi Mike
                                                I should have added the source each piece of data came from in my reply which I will add now.
                                              The current mean level of the Ohio River is 586 ft. Above sea level. (google earth)
                                              The flow rate is 20,000 cubic ft./s (USGS) ( http://pubs. usgs.gov/ of/2006/1159/ report.html# 1005228)  
                                              The top width of the river is 1800 ft.(google earth)
                                              The average depth is 20 ft. (USGS)
                                              The top of the ramp is 610 ft. Above sea level. (google earth)
                                              The top of the ramp to the river is 24 ft.(vertical measurement) (google earth)
                                              The est for construction of the ramp to compensate for 100 year flood plan is 10 ft. (my est based on current ramps in use)
                                              The outflow in volume of the Mississippi 10,000 years ago is four times the volumn of today. (memory from a study of Gulf depths performed by The University of Fla.)
                                                I wonder what date would be generated if this same scale and data was applied to the Ill. mounds next to the Mississippi or other known sites along the waterway?
                                              best regards
                                              William
                                              --- On Thu, 9/24/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                              From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: mississippian tradition
                                              To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                              Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 2:17 AM

                                               

                                               
                                              hi william, all
                                               
                                                 where did you find your info?  its interesting.  you estimate use of the ramp circe 4000 bce. 
                                                 from cayce, im led to believe there were two phases of ohio moundbuilders, 10,000 bce, and 3000 bce.  this suggests about 10,000 bce for the adena, and 3000 bce for the hopewell.  i know this is far from accepted dating.  the geometrical works at newark, etc, he said were by the atlanteans, associated with the earlier group. 
                                                 canoes dont need a ramp.  i wonder how large of boats were in use then? 
                                                 the elaborate earthworks were carefully designed according to plans, and depicted something important to the ancients.  as far as i know, the meaning continues to elude us. 
                                                 its possible that the face of the land was far different back then.  ohio could have been on the seashore.  digs turned up much use of seashells, and many depictions of parrots, and other tropical bird feathers.  in ohio, as in coastal peru, our lads were fast to conclude that this proved extensive trade with remote places, instead of considering the climate or terrain was different then.  people tend to rely upon things obtained close at hand. 
                                                  given current knowledge, its hard to visualize what america was like in 50,000 bce.  that was before the mississippi river flowed as it does now.  inland seas may have come and gone a few times since then.  lemurians had settled in ga and ala, and in w pa and w ny.  pittsburg pa is not far from marietta oh, right? 
                                               
                                              mike
                                               
                                               
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:56 PM
                                              Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: mississippian tradition

                                               

                                              Hi Mike
                                              A little home work shows the information you requested about the age of the pyramid earthworks at Marietta, Ohio.
                                              The current mean level of the Ohio River is 586 ft. Above sea level.
                                              The flow rate is 20,000 cubic ft./s
                                              The top width of the river is 1800 ft.
                                              The average depth is 20 ft.
                                              The top of the ramp is 610 ft. Above sea level.
                                              The top of the ramp to the river is 24 ft.(vertical measurement)
                                              The est for construction of the ramp to compensate for 100 year flood plan is 10 ft.
                                              The outflow in volume of the Mississippi 10,000 years ago is four times the volumn of today.
                                              The estimate of time when the river height was such that the ramp would have been effective for use seems to indicate the river would have been at a normal flow of 14 ft. higher than its current level.
                                              Now - 586 ft.
                                              2500 years ago - 591 ft.
                                              5000 years ago - 596 ft.
                                              7500 years ago - 606 ft.
                                              10,000 years ago -616 ft.
                                              My est for use of this site was 6,000 years ago and could not have been in use over 8000 years ago. I do find it interesting that this information even though it has a lot of assumptions falls into the est. time frame of the oldest stories in the bible. hmmm
                                              best regards
                                              william

                                              --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white" <infoplz@... > wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > to keep an open-mind, we arent certain that the pyramids of marietta were built by the hopewell or adena. they may relate to those of the deep south, for no other truncated temple pyramids were built in ohio, as far as i know. judging by the cut of the river since the original temple ramp was constructed, it was thousands of years ago. i think squiers and davis said the river was 30 ft below the ramp in 1850 ce. we can check their figure, and see how much deeper the bed is cut in 159 years, then estimate how long since the old ramp was at river level, i bet over 5,000 years. this needs to be done william.
                                              >
                                              > mike
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: mike white
                                              > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                              > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:26 PM
                                              > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids. there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay. i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta.
                                              >
                                              > mike
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: william smith
                                              > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                              > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                                              > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                                              > william
                                              >
                                              > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@... > wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From: mike white <infoplz@... >
                                              > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                              > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                              > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > hi william, all
                                              >
                                              > there are pyramids in usa. look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds. ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south.
                                              >
                                              > mike
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: william smith
                                              > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                              > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                                              > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Hi Mike
                                              > I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                                              > William
                                              >
                                              > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                              > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                              > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                              > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions.
                                              > if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition. im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding. this was true in greater ohio, and in the south. as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia. i dont see much similarity between these sites. it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time.
                                              > im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information.
                                              > i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river. that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids. these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce. much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then.
                                              > so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent. cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest.
                                              > it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made. lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds.
                                              > the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time. we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building.
                                              >
                                              > mike
                                              >

                                            • william smith
                                              Hi Mike   I feel that the Ohio River is in some ways no different than all the rivers of the world. They all seem to be changing every day. We do not see this
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Sep 24, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Hi Mike
                                                  I feel that the Ohio River is in some ways no different than all the rivers of the world. They all seem to be changing every day. We do not see this change due to its small amount in a short time. The rivers are a means for sum of the frozen water of the poles to get to the sea. I feel these rivers go through a cyclic change every ice age which is about 22,000 years. I have seen some estimates where if all the pole ice was melted the seas would be 30 feet higher and the rivers would be dry except for rain run off.
                                                  After 2012 are sun will be moving away from the center of the milky way in its cycle of 44,000 years which may generate the start of a new ice age which will allow our earth 11,000 years to replenish the ice at the poles and start the cycle again. This may imply that 2012 is the end of global warming and the beginning of global cooling.
                                                best regards
                                                william

                                                --- On Thu, 9/24/09, mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:

                                                From: mike white <infoplz@...>
                                                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: mississippian tradition
                                                To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 1:11 PM

                                                 

                                                 
                                                   thanks for the info william.  later i will look up the measurements done by squiers and davis circa 1855. 
                                                   without a ramp the other ancient sites wont reveal much, unless they uncover a pavement leading to the river. 
                                                   the ohio is a big river, 1800 ft width, without knowing the size of boats the ancients used, dating can be difficult.  a big boat or a double decker, may have needed a higher ramp to discharge people or goods. 
                                                   im wondering if the geologists estimated the age of the ohio river.  its certain that at least one of the rivers near there changed course during the time of cultured man.  the falls at louisville appear to be a recent geological formation, with little bed cutting thru the rock. 
                                                 
                                                mike
                                                 
                                                 
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:39 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: mississippian tradition

                                                 

                                                Hi Mike
                                                  I should have added the source each piece of data came from in my reply which I will add now.
                                                The current mean level of the Ohio River is 586 ft. Above sea level. (google earth)
                                                The flow rate is 20,000 cubic ft./s (USGS) ( http://pubs. usgs.gov/ of/2006/1159/ report.html# 1005228)  
                                                The top width of the river is 1800 ft.(google earth)
                                                The average depth is 20 ft. (USGS)
                                                The top of the ramp is 610 ft. Above sea level. (google earth)
                                                The top of the ramp to the river is 24 ft.(vertical measurement) (google earth)
                                                The est for construction of the ramp to compensate for 100 year flood plan is 10 ft. (my est based on current ramps in use)
                                                The outflow in volume of the Mississippi 10,000 years ago is four times the volumn of today. (memory from a study of Gulf depths performed by The University of Fla.)
                                                  I wonder what date would be generated if this same scale and data was applied to the Ill. mounds next to the Mississippi or other known sites along the waterway?
                                                best regards
                                                William
                                                --- On Thu, 9/24/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                                                From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: mississippian tradition
                                                To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                                Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 2:17 AM

                                                 

                                                 
                                                hi william, all
                                                 
                                                   where did you find your info?  its interesting.  you estimate use of the ramp circe 4000 bce. 
                                                   from cayce, im led to believe there were two phases of ohio moundbuilders, 10,000 bce, and 3000 bce.  this suggests about 10,000 bce for the adena, and 3000 bce for the hopewell.  i know this is far from accepted dating.  the geometrical works at newark, etc, he said were by the atlanteans, associated with the earlier group. 
                                                   canoes dont need a ramp.  i wonder how large of boats were in use then? 
                                                   the elaborate earthworks were carefully designed according to plans, and depicted something important to the ancients.  as far as i know, the meaning continues to elude us. 
                                                   its possible that the face of the land was far different back then.  ohio could have been on the seashore.  digs turned up much use of seashells, and many depictions of parrots, and other tropical bird feathers.  in ohio, as in coastal peru, our lads were fast to conclude that this proved extensive trade with remote places, instead of considering the climate or terrain was different then.  people tend to rely upon things obtained close at hand. 
                                                    given current knowledge, its hard to visualize what america was like in 50,000 bce.  that was before the mississippi river flowed as it does now.  inland seas may have come and gone a few times since then.  lemurians had settled in ga and ala, and in w pa and w ny.  pittsburg pa is not far from marietta oh, right? 
                                                 
                                                mike
                                                 
                                                 
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 7:56 PM
                                                Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: mississippian tradition

                                                 

                                                Hi Mike
                                                A little home work shows the information you requested about the age of the pyramid earthworks at Marietta, Ohio.
                                                The current mean level of the Ohio River is 586 ft. Above sea level.
                                                The flow rate is 20,000 cubic ft./s
                                                The top width of the river is 1800 ft.
                                                The average depth is 20 ft.
                                                The top of the ramp is 610 ft. Above sea level.
                                                The top of the ramp to the river is 24 ft.(vertical measurement)
                                                The est for construction of the ramp to compensate for 100 year flood plan is 10 ft.
                                                The outflow in volume of the Mississippi 10,000 years ago is four times the volumn of today.
                                                The estimate of time when the river height was such that the ramp would have been effective for use seems to indicate the river would have been at a normal flow of 14 ft. higher than its current level.
                                                Now - 586 ft.
                                                2500 years ago - 591 ft.
                                                5000 years ago - 596 ft.
                                                7500 years ago - 606 ft.
                                                10,000 years ago -616 ft.
                                                My est for use of this site was 6,000 years ago and could not have been in use over 8000 years ago. I do find it interesting that this information even though it has a lot of assumptions falls into the est. time frame of the oldest stories in the bible. hmmm
                                                best regards
                                                william

                                                --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white" <infoplz@... > wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > to keep an open-mind, we arent certain that the pyramids of marietta were built by the hopewell or adena. they may relate to those of the deep south, for no other truncated temple pyramids were built in ohio, as far as i know. judging by the cut of the river since the original temple ramp was constructed, it was thousands of years ago. i think squiers and davis said the river was 30 ft below the ramp in 1850 ce. we can check their figure, and see how much deeper the bed is cut in 159 years, then estimate how long since the old ramp was at river level, i bet over 5,000 years. this needs to be done william.
                                                >
                                                > mike
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > From: mike white
                                                > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:26 PM
                                                > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > i think those of ohio are earthen-clay pyramids. there was use of sun-baked bricks in the ancient south, but not sure if the pyramids were other than earthen-clay. i need to visit marietta again, i think i got lost or rushed last time i followed the muskigum river into marietta.
                                                >
                                                > mike
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > From: william smith
                                                > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 2:12 PM
                                                > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Thanks Mike, If they are made of stone I would like to see them. If they are made of soil we have all types in Ohio as you are aware.
                                                > william
                                                >
                                                > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@... > wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > From: mike white <infoplz@... >
                                                > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                                > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 2:03 PM
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > hi william, all
                                                >
                                                > there are pyramids in usa. look up those at marietta ohio, which are truncated temple mounds. ive visited most of those at ohio, but need to make a road trip to see the older ones in the south.
                                                >
                                                > mike
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > From: william smith
                                                > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:49 PM
                                                > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Hi Mike
                                                > I am no expert on American mounds or pyramids, however I am not aware of any pyramids north of Mexico or mounds south of the USA. I feel as you that each are of different cultures and each have variance in construction within their own grouping. Ohio at one time was estimated to have over 5000 mounds, less than 500 remain. I do not know of any pyramids ever built in Ohio. If I recall the mound building in the USA seem to have a starting date of about 200 AD which is about 250 years after the Samaritons were ran out of Europe. The oldest seems to be located in the East coast area and the newest in Ill. Some show signs of single burials and some show many were buried in them, then some do not have any burials in them, which may indicate they had a different function than others. I also think many of the mounds were no more than a trash dump where the ancient Americans were cleaning their camp site.
                                                > William
                                                >
                                                > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                                                > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] mississippian tradition
                                                > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 12:39 PM
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > i reject the experts grouping of sites related to various moundbuilding traditions.
                                                > if we can, may we discuss the mississippian tradition. im of the opinion that there were several phases of moundbuilding. this was true in greater ohio, and in the south. as far as i can tell, our lads group all of the mounds and pyramids of ga, al, ms, ar, ok, tx together, with caddoan, spiro, and cahokia. i dont see much similarity between these sites. it seems more likely that they were different tribes, far separated in time.
                                                > im no expert, and welcome constructive comments and information.
                                                > i think the earliest pyramids within the usa, were constructed across the south, east of the mississippi river. that they used large bricks, and built truncated temple pyramids. these likely are the ones that cayce said were built by the lemurians circa 50,000 bce. much of the lower midwest may have been under the sea then.
                                                > so the spiro and the caddoan sites were probably much more recent. cahokia was likely built later than these last, probably not long before the conquest.
                                                > it would be interesting to examine details of construction, and relics found, so that a more exact grouping can be made. lets ignore what the experts say, and use our own minds.
                                                > the creek or muskogee people could be descendants of the lemurians, and may have continued mound building, but are not to be confused with the earlier constructions from a remote time. we are possibly examining 50,000 years of mound building.
                                                >
                                                > mike
                                                >

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