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Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america

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  • mike white
    so far i have presented several circumstantial reasons that cause me to think the lower midwest may have been an inland sea in fairly recent times. we can add
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 1, 2009
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         so far i have presented several circumstantial reasons that cause me to think the lower midwest may have been an inland sea in fairly recent times. 
         we can add to them the location of moundbuilder sites, those of the adena and hopewell were concentrated on the higher ground of ohio, ky, wv, and along the northern reaches of the midwest.  there were mounds further south but these may have been by a different group and time.  the sites with effigy mounds follow the same pattern, omitting the lowlands of the lower midwest.  the sites with the remains of giants are not found in the lower midwest.  i believe this to be generally true, any exceptions may have been build during the times when the lower midwest was dry between inundations. 
         cayce told of two migrations into ohio where other people joined the moundbuilders, widely separated in time, the first in 10,000 bce, and later circa 3000 bce.  i got the idea the second group travelled by land from mexico to ohio.  this latter period was when many nations of the world took to boats and migrated, for some cause not yet discovered.  oddly, im not aware of any mounds or earthworks that definitely date from 3000 bce that are found in the lower midwest.  i will probably get lots of responses of sites dated in this period by our experts.  in fact all of them are dated by them more recently.  the spiro mounds of ok may have been built by the transients of 3000 bce. 
         the moundbuilders seemed only worried by attacks from the east, as if their western and southern boundary had a natural barrier like water. 
         the moundbuilders had evidence of seashells and other marine life, that our lads concluded was by trade with the far southeast.  maybe the sea was on their boundary then.  the experts said the same thing when jungle evidence of feathers and plants were found in graves along the now arid coast of peru, it had to indicate far trade with the amazon, rather than consider the climate may have been far different then. 
       
          the link is a basic guide to investigate a possible archaeological site. 
       
       
      mike
       
       
    • dcampbell75479
      The eleven conical mounds at Watson Brake in Northern Louisiana date to 3000 BC even as accepted by mainstream archaeologists. The formative architecture of
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 1, 2009
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        The eleven conical mounds at Watson Brake in Northern Louisiana date
        to 3000 BC even as accepted by mainstream archaeologists. The
        formative architecture of Norte Chico currently date to that period as
        well. Poverty Point which had previously held the position of oldest
        mound, by contrast dates only to 1500 BC. What is remarkable about
        these structures is that they predate the widespread practice of
        agriculture though the incipient phases starchy plant subsistence had
        already begun in Mexico, the TransMississipian South and no doubt
        numerous other locations as well. The prehistoric cemataries near
        Victoria, Texas indicate that the relatively sophisticated technology
        of Poverty Point may have actually been in use as far back as 7,000
        years ago and peculiar point similar to those previously found only in
        South America was found there. Acceptance of a Mesoamerican influence
        among the temple mound building cultures is growing but a
        chronological compression of the Adena and Hopewell cultures along
        with the much later Spiro phase is still a bridge too far, IMO.
        --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
        <infoplz@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > so far i have presented several circumstantial reasons that cause
        me to think the lower midwest may have been an inland sea in fairly
        recent times.
        > we can add to them the location of moundbuilder sites, those of
        the adena and hopewell were concentrated on the higher ground of ohio,
        ky, wv, and along the northern reaches of the midwest. there were
        mounds further south but these may have been by a different group and
        time. the sites with effigy mounds follow the same pattern, omitting
        the lowlands of the lower midwest. the sites with the remains of
        giants are not found in the lower midwest. i believe this to be
        generally true, any exceptions may have been build during the times
        when the lower midwest was dry between inundations.
        > cayce told of two migrations into ohio where other people joined
        the moundbuilders, widely separated in time, the first in 10,000 bce,
        and later circa 3000 bce. i got the idea the second group travelled
        by land from mexico to ohio. this latter period was when many nations
        of the world took to boats and migrated, for some cause not yet
        discovered. oddly, im not aware of any mounds or earthworks that
        definitely date from 3000 bce that are found in the lower midwest. i
        will probably get lots of responses of sites dated in this period by
        our experts. in fact all of them are dated by them more recently.
        the spiro mounds of ok may have been built by the transients of 3000
        bce.
        > the moundbuilders seemed only worried by attacks from the east,
        as if their western and southern boundary had a natural barrier like
        water.
        > the moundbuilders had evidence of seashells and other marine
        life, that our lads concluded was by trade with the far southeast.
        maybe the sea was on their boundary then. the experts said the same
        thing when jungle evidence of feathers and plants were found in graves
        along the now arid coast of peru, it had to indicate far trade with
        the amazon, rather than consider the climate may have been far
        different then.
        >
        > the link is a basic guide to investigate a possible
        archaeological site.
        >
        > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071122231522AAG3r4e
        >
        > mike
        >
      • Vincent Barrows
        Watson Brake Mounds are not the only mounds from such an early date. The following website shows that 2 mounds at LSU in Baton Rouge are dated to 5000 years
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 1, 2009
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          Watson Brake Mounds are not the only mounds from such an early date. The following website shows that 2 mounds at LSU in Baton Rouge are dated to 5000 years ago also.
          http://collegerule.wordpress.com/2007/11/09/louisiana-state-university/

          The evidence from Cahokia Mounds including the majority of Archaic Projectile Points, Wooden bowls, and microlithic technology indicates that Cahokia Mounds also had civilizations in the Early Archaic Time periods.

          These sites are home to many consecutive civilizations, one built on top of another. For the complete chronology of Cahokia Civilizations, See http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound
          Thanks
          Vince

          --- On Thu, 1/1/09, dcampbell75479 <fred-dobbs@...> wrote:

          From: dcampbell75479 <fred-dobbs@...>
          Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america
          To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 2:55 PM

          The eleven conical mounds at Watson Brake in Northern Louisiana date
          to 3000 BC even as accepted by mainstream archaeologists. The
          formative architecture of Norte Chico currently date to that period as
          well. Poverty Point which had previously held the position of oldest
          mound, by contrast dates only to 1500 BC. What is remarkable about
          these structures is that they predate the widespread practice of
          agriculture though the incipient phases starchy plant subsistence had
          already begun in Mexico, the TransMississipian South and no doubt
          numerous other locations as well. The prehistoric cemataries near
          Victoria, Texas indicate that the relatively sophisticated technology
          of Poverty Point may have actually been in use as far back as 7,000
          years ago and peculiar point similar to those previously found only in
          South America was found there. Acceptance of a Mesoamerican influence
          among the temple mound building cultures is growing but a
          chronological compression of the Adena and Hopewell cultures along
          with the much later Spiro phase is still a bridge too far, IMO.
          --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
          <infoplz@... > wrote:
          >
          >
          > so far i have presented several circumstantial reasons that cause
          me to think the lower midwest may have been an inland sea in fairly
          recent times.
          > we can add to them the location of moundbuilder sites, those of
          the adena and hopewell were concentrated on the higher ground of ohio,
          ky, wv, and along the northern reaches of the midwest. there were
          mounds further south but these may have been by a different group and
          time. the sites with effigy mounds follow the same pattern, omitting
          the lowlands of the lower midwest. the sites with the remains of
          giants are not found in the lower midwest. i believe this to be
          generally true, any exceptions may have been build during the times
          when the lower midwest was dry between inundations.
          > cayce told of two migrations into ohio where other people joined
          the moundbuilders, widely separated in time, the first in 10,000 bce,
          and later circa 3000 bce. i got the idea the second group travelled
          by land from mexico to ohio. this latter period was when many nations
          of the world took to boats and migrated, for some cause not yet
          discovered. oddly, im not aware of any mounds or earthworks that
          definitely date from 3000 bce that are found in the lower midwest. i
          will probably get lots of responses of sites dated in this period by
          our experts. in fact all of them are dated by them more recently.
          the spiro mounds of ok may have been built by the transients of 3000
          bce.
          > the moundbuilders seemed only worried by attacks from the east,
          as if their western and southern boundary had a natural barrier like
          water.
          > the moundbuilders had evidence of seashells and other marine
          life, that our lads concluded was by trade with the far southeast.
          maybe the sea was on their boundary then. the experts said the same
          thing when jungle evidence of feathers and plants were found in graves
          along the now arid coast of peru, it had to indicate far trade with
          the amazon, rather than consider the climate may have been far
          different then.
          >
          > the link is a basic guide to investigate a possible
          archaeological site.
          >
          > http://answers. yahoo.com/ question/ index?qid= 20071122231522AA G3r4e
          >
          > mike
          >


        • dcampbell75479
          Thanks, Vince. Do you have a link to further information on the LSU mounds? I was aware that more of these earlier mounds were under investigation after the
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 1, 2009
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            Thanks, Vince. Do you have a link to further information on the LSU
            mounds? I was aware that more of these earlier mounds were under
            investigation after the Watson Brake mound discovery but I never heard
            of any of the specifics. The Forney Reservoir (now Lake Ray Hubbard)
            Archaeological Salvage Survey of 1965 reported Early Archaic
            components in the Upper and Lower Rockwall mounds but I was not aware
            that they represented the actual constructive phases of the mounds
            themselves. Some of the early mounds in Louisiana were merely natural
            elevations which were used to place camps above the seasonal flood
            waters and were later augmented with successive layers of cane matting
            and earth. This appears to have been the case also in my immediate
            area where some of these platforms produce only scanty distributions
            of artifacts and some almost none at all. The Texas mounds seem to
            have been continuously occupied, at least seasonally, right up to the
            latter years of the 18th century and at least a couple well into the
            19th. They are mentioned in the Red River Survey commissioned by
            Jefferson around 1816. Just this past September, a Paleoindian point
            (possibly a preform) turned up here next to my place which had
            previously produced mainly Caddoan artifacts from the Woodland. Prior
            to that, I had found quartzite Archaic points well beneath the local
            Adena variant. Needless to say, I had earlier found much, much older
            Paleoindian material but it was separated by relatively sterile layers
            beneath the more common Archaic to Mississippian artifacts. Nobody
            contests that the mounds were sites of multiple occupations extending
            in many cases into the Pleistocene. It seems likely to me that the
            moundbuilding phase in North America probably extends just as far into
            the past as the Chilean sites but North American environmental
            conditions have not lent themselves as well to preservation as the
            Chilean and Peruvian coastal deserts. Certainly the Old Copper Age of
            3000 BC demonstrates that a technologically high culture was in place
            at that time. On one of the sites devoted to that culture, I read a
            while back that there were hints in Canadian sites that the North
            American Chalcolithic may even have origins in Paleoindian times. I
            haven't seen anything more recently on that intriguing suggestion,
            have you?
            --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Barrows
            <v_barrows@...> wrote:
            >
            > Watson Brake Mounds are not the only mounds from such an early date.
            The following website shows that 2 mounds at LSU in Baton Rouge are
            dated to 5000 years ago also.
            > http://collegerule.wordpress.com/2007/11/09/louisiana-state-university/
            >
            > The evidence from Cahokia Mounds including the majority of Archaic
            Projectile Points, Wooden bowls, and microlithic technology indicates
            that Cahokia Mounds also had civilizations in the Early Archaic Time
            periods.
            >
            > These sites are home to many consecutive civilizations, one built on
            top of another. For the complete chronology of Cahokia Civilizations,
            See http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound
            > Thanks
            > Vince
            >
            > --- On Thu, 1/1/09, dcampbell75479 <fred-dobbs@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: dcampbell75479 <fred-dobbs@...>
            > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america
            > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 2:55 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > The eleven conical mounds at Watson Brake in Northern
            Louisiana date
            >
            > to 3000 BC even as accepted by mainstream archaeologists. The
            >
            > formative architecture of Norte Chico currently date to that period as
            >
            > well. Poverty Point which had previously held the position of oldest
            >
            > mound, by contrast dates only to 1500 BC. What is remarkable about
            >
            > these structures is that they predate the widespread practice of
            >
            > agriculture though the incipient phases starchy plant subsistence had
            >
            > already begun in Mexico, the TransMississipian South and no doubt
            >
            > numerous other locations as well. The prehistoric cemataries near
            >
            > Victoria, Texas indicate that the relatively sophisticated technology
            >
            > of Poverty Point may have actually been in use as far back as 7,000
            >
            > years ago and peculiar point similar to those previously found only in
            >
            > South America was found there. Acceptance of a Mesoamerican influence
            >
            > among the temple mound building cultures is growing but a
            >
            > chronological compression of the Adena and Hopewell cultures along
            >
            > with the much later Spiro phase is still a bridge too far, IMO.
            >
            > --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
            >
            > <infoplz@ > wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > so far i have presented several circumstantial reasons that cause
            >
            > me to think the lower midwest may have been an inland sea in fairly
            >
            > recent times.
            >
            > > we can add to them the location of moundbuilder sites, those of
            >
            > the adena and hopewell were concentrated on the higher ground of ohio,
            >
            > ky, wv, and along the northern reaches of the midwest. there were
            >
            > mounds further south but these may have been by a different group and
            >
            > time. the sites with effigy mounds follow the same pattern, omitting
            >
            > the lowlands of the lower midwest. the sites with the remains of
            >
            > giants are not found in the lower midwest. i believe this to be
            >
            > generally true, any exceptions may have been build during the times
            >
            > when the lower midwest was dry between inundations.
            >
            > > cayce told of two migrations into ohio where other people joined
            >
            > the moundbuilders, widely separated in time, the first in 10,000 bce,
            >
            > and later circa 3000 bce. i got the idea the second group travelled
            >
            > by land from mexico to ohio. this latter period was when many nations
            >
            > of the world took to boats and migrated, for some cause not yet
            >
            > discovered. oddly, im not aware of any mounds or earthworks that
            >
            > definitely date from 3000 bce that are found in the lower midwest. i
            >
            > will probably get lots of responses of sites dated in this period by
            >
            > our experts. in fact all of them are dated by them more recently.
            >
            > the spiro mounds of ok may have been built by the transients of 3000
            >
            > bce.
            >
            > > the moundbuilders seemed only worried by attacks from the east,
            >
            > as if their western and southern boundary had a natural barrier like
            >
            > water.
            >
            > > the moundbuilders had evidence of seashells and other marine
            >
            > life, that our lads concluded was by trade with the far southeast.
            >
            > maybe the sea was on their boundary then. the experts said the same
            >
            > thing when jungle evidence of feathers and plants were found in graves
            >
            > along the now arid coast of peru, it had to indicate far trade with
            >
            > the amazon, rather than consider the climate may have been far
            >
            > different then.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > the link is a basic guide to investigate a possible
            >
            > archaeological site.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > http://answers. yahoo.com/ question/ index?qid= 20071122231522AA G3r4e
            >
            > >
            >
            > > mike
            >
            > >
            >
          • mike white
            they dont reveal the basis for dating the spiro mounds so late. without that its difficult to assess the strength of their claims. mainstream thinking tends
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 1, 2009
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                  they dont reveal the basis for dating the spiro mounds so late.  without that its difficult to assess the strength of their claims.  mainstream thinking tends to place relics of a higher culture later in time, where i believe that the reverse is often true.  again, the abundance of seashells is attributed to far trade.  the arts and metalurgy attained at spiro points to a much earlier time, imho.  there seems to be a close connection with the mexican culture. 
              looks like about 560 ft elevation. 
                 i think its often counter-productive and muddling to focus our thinking within mainstream time restraints, unless they stand upon a firm basis. 
                 with old world settlement at heavener ok, and an unknown iron-age culture at wilburton, there may have been diffusion at spiro.  it could have been an aztec outpost.  most native american cultures in america were hunter-gatherers or based upon the buffalo during the era given for spiro, with little trade.  instead of trade, they would more likely have killed them and taken their goods. 
               
              "The Hopewell tradition (also incorrectly called the "Hopewell culture") is the term used to describe common aspects of the Native American culture that flourished along rivers in the northeastern and midwestern United States from 200 BCE to 500 CE. "
               
               (ca. 1000 BC – AD 100) the Adena culture or tradition existed in Ohio Valley.
               
              Spiro was inhabited between about 600 and 1450 AD.
               
              mike
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 2:55 PM
              Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america

              The eleven conical mounds at Watson Brake in Northern Louisiana date
              to 3000 BC even as accepted by mainstream archaeologists. The
              formative architecture of Norte Chico currently date to that period as
              well. Poverty Point which had previously held the position of oldest
              mound, by contrast dates only to 1500 BC. What is remarkable about
              these structures is that they predate the widespread practice of
              agriculture though the incipient phases starchy plant subsistence had
              already begun in Mexico, the TransMississipian South and no doubt
              numerous other locations as well. The prehistoric cemataries near
              Victoria, Texas indicate that the relatively sophisticated technology
              of Poverty Point may have actually been in use as far back as 7,000
              years ago and peculiar point similar to those previously found only in
              South America was found there. Acceptance of a Mesoamerican influence
              among the temple mound building cultures is growing but a
              chronological compression of the Adena and Hopewell cultures along
              with the much later Spiro phase is still a bridge too far, IMO.
              --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
              <infoplz@... > wrote:
              >
              >
              > so far i have presented several circumstantial reasons that cause
              me to think the lower midwest may have been an inland sea in fairly
              recent times.
              > we can add to them the location of moundbuilder sites, those of
              the adena and hopewell were concentrated on the higher ground of ohio,
              ky, wv, and along the northern reaches of the midwest. there were
              mounds further south but these may have been by a different group and
              time. the sites with effigy mounds follow the same pattern, omitting
              the lowlands of the lower midwest. the sites with the remains of
              giants are not found in the lower midwest. i believe this to be
              generally true, any exceptions may have been build during the times
              when the lower midwest was dry between inundations.
              > cayce told of two migrations into ohio where other people joined
              the moundbuilders, widely separated in time, the first in 10,000 bce,
              and later circa 3000 bce. i got the idea the second group travelled
              by land from mexico to ohio. this latter period was when many nations
              of the world took to boats and migrated, for some cause not yet
              discovered. oddly, im not aware of any mounds or earthworks that
              definitely date from 3000 bce that are found in the lower midwest. i
              will probably get lots of responses of sites dated in this period by
              our experts. in fact all of them are dated by them more recently.
              the spiro mounds of ok may have been built by the transients of 3000
              bce.
              > the moundbuilders seemed only worried by attacks from the east,
              as if their western and southern boundary had a natural barrier like
              water.
              > the moundbuilders had evidence of seashells and other marine
              life, that our lads concluded was by trade with the far southeast.
              maybe the sea was on their boundary then. the experts said the same
              thing when jungle evidence of feathers and plants were found in graves
              along the now arid coast of peru, it had to indicate far trade with
              the amazon, rather than consider the climate may have been far
              different then.
              >
              > the link is a basic guide to investigate a possible
              archaeological site.
              >
              > http://answers. yahoo.com/ question/ index?qid= 20071122231522AA G3r4e
              >
              > mike
              >

            • Vincent Barrows
              I agree 100% that the Chronology of Sprio Mounds has not been satisfactorily evaluated. The following is an email that I sent to Ancient Waterways Society
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 1, 2009
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                I agree 100% that the Chronology of Sprio Mounds has not been satisfactorily evaluated. The following is an email that I sent to Ancient Waterways Society Earlier last year regarding three lithic types that were on display in a Sprio Mounds exhibition in Houston, Texas.

                The attached  photo is from a Spiro Mound display at the Houston, Texas Natural History Museum. The photo shows three (3) points uncovered in Sprio Mound. These points appear to be Brewerton (Late Archaic) points.
                 
                So the question is: what are they doing in a "Mississippian" mound?
                 
                Is there any reason to believe that Spiro Mound was not from the same time as these points?There are two possibilities that could explain their presence in the mound, First, they could have been parallel with the chronology of the mound - making it "late archaic" rather than "Mississippian".Or they could have been "collected" by the Natives that Built the mound.

                Also, I noticed  the presence of matching motifs found on a bannerstone from Wilmington, Ohio and another bannerstone from Rhode Island with that found in the Spiro Mound. The book on Pre-columbian shell engravings from Sprio reveals over 20,000 shell cups fragments that were engraved. I took the opportunity to examine some of these at the Smithsonian Institute. They were very small fragments of shell cups, each incised carefully.

                The woodpecker motif that is present on several Shell cups from sprio is most interesting to me since it is seen on the Utz Tablet, as well as on the Weck Stone Tablet. This motif appeared in Key Marco, Florida on a Gold Hairpin as well as on several shell gorgets from Kentucky.

                In The Folklore of Birds, Edward Armstrong wrote that this motif of the woodpecker falls betwen the Mesolithic and the Bronze age (5000-2000BC)

                My two cents;
                Vince


                --- On Thu, 1/1/09, mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:

                From: mike white <infoplz@...>
                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america
                To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 7:04 PM

                 
                    they dont reveal the basis for dating the spiro mounds so late.  without that its difficult to assess the strength of their claims.  mainstream thinking tends to place relics of a higher culture later in time, where i believe that the reverse is often true.  again, the abundance of seashells is attributed to far trade.  the arts and metalurgy attained at spiro points to a much earlier time, imho.  there seems to be a close connection with the mexican culture. 
                looks like about 560 ft elevation. 
                   i think its often counter-productive and muddling to focus our thinking within mainstream time restraints, unless they stand upon a firm basis. 
                   with old world settlement at heavener ok, and an unknown iron-age culture at wilburton, there may have been diffusion at spiro.  it could have been an aztec outpost.  most native american cultures in america were hunter-gatherers or based upon the buffalo during the era given for spiro, with little trade.  instead of trade, they would more likely have killed them and taken their goods. 
                 
                "The Hopewell tradition (also incorrectly called the "Hopewell culture") is the term used to describe common aspects of the Native American culture that flourished along rivers in the northeastern and midwestern United States from 200 BCE to 500 CE. "
                 
                 (ca. 1000 BC – AD 100) the Adena culture or tradition existed in Ohio Valley.
                 
                Spiro was inhabited between about 600 and 1450 AD.
                 
                mike
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 2:55 PM
                Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america

                The eleven conical mounds at Watson Brake in Northern Louisiana date
                to 3000 BC even as accepted by mainstream archaeologists. The
                formative architecture of Norte Chico currently date to that period as
                well. Poverty Point which had previously held the position of oldest
                mound, by contrast dates only to 1500 BC. What is remarkable about
                these structures is that they predate the widespread practice of
                agriculture though the incipient phases starchy plant subsistence had
                already begun in Mexico, the TransMississipian South and no doubt
                numerous other locations as well. The prehistoric cemataries near
                Victoria, Texas indicate that the relatively sophisticated technology
                of Poverty Point may have actually been in use as far back as 7,000
                years ago and peculiar point similar to those previously found only in
                South America was found there. Acceptance of a Mesoamerican influence
                among the temple mound building cultures is growing but a
                chronological compression of the Adena and Hopewell cultures along
                with the much later Spiro phase is still a bridge too far, IMO.
                --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                <infoplz@... > wrote:
                >
                >
                > so far i have presented several circumstantial reasons that cause
                me to think the lower midwest may have been an inland sea in fairly
                recent times.
                > we can add to them the location of moundbuilder sites, those of
                the adena and hopewell were concentrated on the higher ground of ohio,
                ky, wv, and along the northern reaches of the midwest. there were
                mounds further south but these may have been by a different group and
                time. the sites with effigy mounds follow the same pattern, omitting
                the lowlands of the lower midwest. the sites with the remains of
                giants are not found in the lower midwest. i believe this to be
                generally true, any exceptions may have been build during the times
                when the lower midwest was dry between inundations.
                > cayce told of two migrations into ohio where other people joined
                the moundbuilders, widely separated in time, the first in 10,000 bce,
                and later circa 3000 bce. i got the idea the second group travelled
                by land from mexico to ohio. this latter period was when many nations
                of the world took to boats and migrated, for some cause not yet
                discovered. oddly, im not aware of any mounds or earthworks that
                definitely date from 3000 bce that are found in the lower midwest. i
                will probably get lots of responses of sites dated in this period by
                our experts. in fact all of them are dated by them more recently.
                the spiro mounds of ok may have been built by the transients of 3000
                bce.
                > the moundbuilders seemed only worried by attacks from the east,
                as if their western and southern boundary had a natural barrier like
                water.
                > the moundbuilders had evidence of seashells and other marine
                life, that our lads concluded was by trade with the far southeast.
                maybe the sea was on their boundary then. the experts said the same
                thing when jungle evidence of feathers and plants were found in graves
                along the now arid coast of peru, it had to indicate far trade with
                the amazon, rather than consider the climate may have been far
                different then.
                >
                > the link is a basic guide to investigate a possible
                archaeological site.
                >
                > http://answers. yahoo.com/ question/ index?qid= 20071122231522AA G3r4e
                >
                > mike
                >


              • dcampbell75479
                Besides carbon dating and microscopic textile analysis, there is also this analysis of obsidian from Spiro. BARKER, Alex W, Craig E. Skinner, M. Steven
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 1, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Besides carbon dating and microscopic textile analysis, there is also
                  this analysis of obsidian from Spiro.

                  BARKER, Alex W, Craig E. Skinner, M. Steven Shackley, Michael D.
                  Glascock, and J. Daniel Rogers (2002)
                  Mesoamerican Origin for an Obsidian Scraper from the Precolumbian
                  Southeastern United States. American Antiquity 67(1):103-108.

                  EDXRF analysis of an obsidian scraper from the Spiro Mounds,
                  Oklahoma, shows that the source material was from Pachuca, Hidalgo,
                  Mexico. Given the distinctive peralkaline character of the obsidian,
                  the source assignment is considered extremely secure. The artifact was
                  recovered from the east tunnel of Craig Mound, Spiro, immediately
                  after the cessation of commercial digging in 1935, and has been in the
                  Smithsonian's collections since 1937. Despite more than 150 years of
                  speculation regarding supposed contact with and influence from the
                  region, this represents the first documented example of Mesoamerican
                  material from any archaeological context in the Precolumbian
                  southeastern United States.

                  The textile analysis can be found here:
                  Mary ElizabethKing and Joan S.Gardner, "The Analysis of Textiles from
                  Spiro Mound, Oklahoma", in Anne-Marie E.Cantwell, James B.Griffin, and
                  Nan A.Rothschild, editors, The Research Potential of Anthropological
                  Museum Collections, Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences376
                  (1981):123–139.

                  The parent article with detailed but somewhat technical description of
                  what is involved in textile analysis is here:
                  http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/articles/jaic26-01-003.html

                  It goes without saying that any absolute chronology of Spiro was
                  rendered impossible by the commercial destruction of the mounds in
                  1935 and the completion of that destruction in the 1950's by the
                  archaeological excavations of the University of Oklahoma but the
                  destruction was begun by the Spiroans themselves when they cratered
                  the main mound to create a massive cemetary. This is not the case with
                  other mounds contemporary with Spiro and with direct connection with
                  it, such as the Sanders, Goff and Nasoni mounds of the Red River and
                  elswhere within the Spiro network. By direct inference, dating
                  parameters can be firmly established which is not to say that
                  subsequent discoveries may not enlarge upon those parameters. And
                  indeed the excavations begun in 2005 on the Stallings Ranch in Lamar
                  County, Texas, in which I was privileged to take part did exactly
                  that, with progress still being made even as I write. Though it is
                  impossible to stay current with all the current discoveries being made
                  in North American archaeology, much of it is accessible to anyone who
                  bothers to look.

                  --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                  <infoplz@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > they dont reveal the basis for dating the spiro mounds so late.
                  without that its difficult to assess the strength of their claims.
                  mainstream thinking tends to place relics of a higher culture later in
                  time, where i believe that the reverse is often true. again, the
                  abundance of seashells is attributed to far trade. the arts and
                  metalurgy attained at spiro points to a much earlier time, imho.
                  there seems to be a close connection with the mexican culture.
                  > looks like about 560 ft elevation.
                  > i think its often counter-productive and muddling to focus our
                  thinking within mainstream time restraints, unless they stand upon a
                  firm basis.
                  > with old world settlement at heavener ok, and an unknown iron-age
                  culture at wilburton, there may have been diffusion at spiro. it
                  could have been an aztec outpost. most native american cultures in
                  america were hunter-gatherers or based upon the buffalo during the era
                  given for spiro, with little trade. instead of trade, they would more
                  likely have killed them and taken their goods.
                  >
                  > "The Hopewell tradition (also incorrectly called the "Hopewell
                  culture") is the term used to describe common aspects of the Native
                  American culture that flourished along rivers in the northeastern and
                  midwestern United States from 200 BCE to 500 CE. "
                  >
                  > (ca. 1000 BC - AD 100) the Adena culture or tradition existed in
                  Ohio Valley.
                  >
                  > Spiro was inhabited between about 600 and 1450 AD.
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiro_Mounds
                  >
                  > mike
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: dcampbell75479
                  > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 2:55 PM
                  > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america
                  >
                  >
                  > The eleven conical mounds at Watson Brake in Northern Louisiana date
                  > to 3000 BC even as accepted by mainstream archaeologists. The
                  > formative architecture of Norte Chico currently date to that period as
                  > well. Poverty Point which had previously held the position of oldest
                  > mound, by contrast dates only to 1500 BC. What is remarkable about
                  > these structures is that they predate the widespread practice of
                  > agriculture though the incipient phases starchy plant subsistence had
                  > already begun in Mexico, the TransMississipian South and no doubt
                  > numerous other locations as well. The prehistoric cemataries near
                  > Victoria, Texas indicate that the relatively sophisticated technology
                  > of Poverty Point may have actually been in use as far back as 7,000
                  > years ago and peculiar point similar to those previously found only in
                  > South America was found there. Acceptance of a Mesoamerican influence
                  > among the temple mound building cultures is growing but a
                  > chronological compression of the Adena and Hopewell cultures along
                  > with the much later Spiro phase is still a bridge too far, IMO.
                  > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                  > <infoplz@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > so far i have presented several circumstantial reasons that cause
                  > me to think the lower midwest may have been an inland sea in fairly
                  > recent times.
                  > > we can add to them the location of moundbuilder sites, those of
                  > the adena and hopewell were concentrated on the higher ground of ohio,
                  > ky, wv, and along the northern reaches of the midwest. there were
                  > mounds further south but these may have been by a different group and
                  > time. the sites with effigy mounds follow the same pattern, omitting
                  > the lowlands of the lower midwest. the sites with the remains of
                  > giants are not found in the lower midwest. i believe this to be
                  > generally true, any exceptions may have been build during the times
                  > when the lower midwest was dry between inundations.
                  > > cayce told of two migrations into ohio where other people joined
                  > the moundbuilders, widely separated in time, the first in 10,000 bce,
                  > and later circa 3000 bce. i got the idea the second group travelled
                  > by land from mexico to ohio. this latter period was when many nations
                  > of the world took to boats and migrated, for some cause not yet
                  > discovered. oddly, im not aware of any mounds or earthworks that
                  > definitely date from 3000 bce that are found in the lower midwest. i
                  > will probably get lots of responses of sites dated in this period by
                  > our experts. in fact all of them are dated by them more recently.
                  > the spiro mounds of ok may have been built by the transients of 3000
                  > bce.
                  > > the moundbuilders seemed only worried by attacks from the east,
                  > as if their western and southern boundary had a natural barrier like
                  > water.
                  > > the moundbuilders had evidence of seashells and other marine
                  > life, that our lads concluded was by trade with the far southeast.
                  > maybe the sea was on their boundary then. the experts said the same
                  > thing when jungle evidence of feathers and plants were found in graves
                  > along the now arid coast of peru, it had to indicate far trade with
                  > the amazon, rather than consider the climate may have been far
                  > different then.
                  > >
                  > > the link is a basic guide to investigate a possible
                  > archaeological site.
                  > >
                  > > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071122231522AAG3r4e
                  > >
                  > > mike
                  > >
                  >
                • mike white
                  it sounds conclusive on the dating, but i would like to know what was carbon dated, and where found. david did these dating techniques yield dates between
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 2, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                     
                       it sounds conclusive on the dating, but i would like to know what was carbon dated, and where found.  david did these dating techniques yield dates between 600-1450 ce? 
                       i have somewhere photos taken of relics from the spiro mounds.  these were of beaten copper plates or masks, and of pottery shards.  all displaying a high order of art. 
                     
                    cayce on the moundbuilders
                     
                       cayce made one brief mention of persians crossing the pacific
                    to join the moundbuilders.  seems like he specified those of our central northwest.  most are not aware of moundbuilders in the northwest, but i have heard of effigy pipes, etc, that were found there.  he spoke of the many groups who joined the moundbuilders during their various phases, from canada, persia, lost tribes, lemurian early influence and mounds in the east and south, atlanteans, mexicans, and the inca.  he gave an interesting clue of atlanteans further west drawing up the plans for ohio's earthworks, as symbols mindful of the works of the yucatan, that were carried over from atlantis.  this is a mystery that has yet to be solved.   a remark suggested that the vikings may have met the late moundbuilders in the northern midwest, circa 1000 ce.  it may be the only place where a clue was given as to the date of the last ohio moundbuilders, before their culture was eliminated or absorbed by incoming tribes.  later dates are often given, but i dont think they lasted much beyond that date. 
                       the caddoans left unusual relics, many suggestive of a mexican connection.  they may have had an outpost there [ok and tx] for trade purposes. 
                     
                    mike
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 12:20 AM
                    Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america

                    Besides carbon dating and microscopic textile analysis, there is also
                    this analysis of obsidian from Spiro.

                    BARKER, Alex W, Craig E. Skinner, M. Steven Shackley, Michael D.
                    Glascock, and J. Daniel Rogers (2002)
                    Mesoamerican Origin for an Obsidian Scraper from the Precolumbian
                    Southeastern United States. American Antiquity 67(1):103-108.

                    EDXRF analysis of an obsidian scraper from the Spiro Mounds,
                    Oklahoma, shows that the source material was from Pachuca, Hidalgo,
                    Mexico. Given the distinctive peralkaline character of the obsidian,
                    the source assignment is considered extremely secure. The artifact was
                    recovered from the east tunnel of Craig Mound, Spiro, immediately
                    after the cessation of commercial digging in 1935, and has been in the
                    Smithsonian' s collections since 1937. Despite more than 150 years of
                    speculation regarding supposed contact with and influence from the
                    region, this represents the first documented example of Mesoamerican
                    material from any archaeological context in the Precolumbian
                    southeastern United States.

                    The textile analysis can be found here:
                    Mary ElizabethKing and Joan S.Gardner, "The Analysis of Textiles from
                    Spiro Mound, Oklahoma", in Anne-Marie E.Cantwell, James B.Griffin, and
                    Nan A.Rothschild, editors, The Research Potential of Anthropological
                    Museum Collections, Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences376
                    (1981):123–139.

                    The parent article with detailed but somewhat technical description of
                    what is involved in textile analysis is here:
                    http://aic.stanford .edu/jaic/ articles/ jaic26-01- 003.html

                    It goes without saying that any absolute chronology of Spiro was
                    rendered impossible by the commercial destruction of the mounds in
                    1935 and the completion of that destruction in the 1950's by the
                    archaeological excavations of the University of Oklahoma but the
                    destruction was begun by the Spiroans themselves when they cratered
                    the main mound to create a massive cemetary. This is not the case with
                    other mounds contemporary with Spiro and with direct connection with
                    it, such as the Sanders, Goff and Nasoni mounds of the Red River and
                    elswhere within the Spiro network. By direct inference, dating
                    parameters can be firmly established which is not to say that
                    subsequent discoveries may not enlarge upon those parameters. And
                    indeed the excavations begun in 2005 on the Stallings Ranch in Lamar
                    County, Texas, in which I was privileged to take part did exactly
                    that, with progress still being made even as I write. Though it is
                    impossible to stay current with all the current discoveries being made
                    in North American archaeology, much of it is accessible to anyone who
                    bothers to look.

                    --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                    <infoplz@... > wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > they dont reveal the basis for dating the spiro mounds so late.
                    without that its difficult to assess the strength of their claims.
                    mainstream thinking tends to place relics of a higher culture later in
                    time, where i believe that the reverse is often true. again, the
                    abundance of seashells is attributed to far trade. the arts and
                    metalurgy attained at spiro points to a much earlier time, imho.
                    there seems to be a close connection with the mexican culture.
                    > looks like about 560 ft elevation.
                    > i think its often counter-productive and muddling to focus our
                    thinking within mainstream time restraints, unless they stand upon a
                    firm basis.
                    > with old world settlement at heavener ok, and an unknown iron-age
                    culture at wilburton, there may have been diffusion at spiro. it
                    could have been an aztec outpost. most native american cultures in
                    america were hunter-gatherers or based upon the buffalo during the era
                    given for spiro, with little trade. instead of trade, they would more
                    likely have killed them and taken their goods.
                    >
                    > "The Hopewell tradition (also incorrectly called the "Hopewell
                    culture") is the term used to describe common aspects of the Native
                    American culture that flourished along rivers in the northeastern and
                    midwestern United States from 200 BCE to 500 CE. "
                    >
                    > (ca. 1000 BC - AD 100) the Adena culture or tradition existed in
                    Ohio Valley.
                    >
                    > Spiro was inhabited between about 600 and 1450 AD.
                    > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Spiro_Mounds
                    >
                    > mike
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: dcampbell75479
                    > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 2:55 PM
                    > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america
                    >
                    >
                    > The eleven conical mounds at Watson Brake in Northern Louisiana date
                    > to 3000 BC even as accepted by mainstream archaeologists. The
                    > formative architecture of Norte Chico currently date to that period as
                    > well. Poverty Point which had previously held the position of oldest
                    > mound, by contrast dates only to 1500 BC. What is remarkable about
                    > these structures is that they predate the widespread practice of
                    > agriculture though the incipient phases starchy plant subsistence had
                    > already begun in Mexico, the TransMississipian South and no doubt
                    > numerous other locations as well. The prehistoric cemataries near
                    > Victoria, Texas indicate that the relatively sophisticated technology
                    > of Poverty Point may have actually been in use as far back as 7,000
                    > years ago and peculiar point similar to those previously found only in
                    > South America was found there. Acceptance of a Mesoamerican influence
                    > among the temple mound building cultures is growing but a
                    > chronological compression of the Adena and Hopewell cultures along
                    > with the much later Spiro phase is still a bridge too far, IMO.
                    > --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                    > <infoplz@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > so far i have presented several circumstantial reasons that cause
                    > me to think the lower midwest may have been an inland sea in fairly
                    > recent times.
                    > > we can add to them the location of moundbuilder sites, those of
                    > the adena and hopewell were concentrated on the higher ground of ohio,
                    > ky, wv, and along the northern reaches of the midwest. there were
                    > mounds further south but these may have been by a different group and
                    > time. the sites with effigy mounds follow the same pattern, omitting
                    > the lowlands of the lower midwest. the sites with the remains of
                    > giants are not found in the lower midwest. i believe this to be
                    > generally true, any exceptions may have been build during the times
                    > when the lower midwest was dry between inundations.
                    > > cayce told of two migrations into ohio where other people joined
                    > the moundbuilders, widely separated in time, the first in 10,000 bce,
                    > and later circa 3000 bce. i got the idea the second group travelled
                    > by land from mexico to ohio. this latter period was when many nations
                    > of the world took to boats and migrated, for some cause not yet
                    > discovered. oddly, im not aware of any mounds or earthworks that
                    > definitely date from 3000 bce that are found in the lower midwest. i
                    > will probably get lots of responses of sites dated in this period by
                    > our experts. in fact all of them are dated by them more recently.
                    > the spiro mounds of ok may have been built by the transients of 3000
                    > bce.
                    > > the moundbuilders seemed only worried by attacks from the east,
                    > as if their western and southern boundary had a natural barrier like
                    > water.
                    > > the moundbuilders had evidence of seashells and other marine
                    > life, that our lads concluded was by trade with the far southeast.
                    > maybe the sea was on their boundary then. the experts said the same
                    > thing when jungle evidence of feathers and plants were found in graves
                    > along the now arid coast of peru, it had to indicate far trade with
                    > the amazon, rather than consider the climate may have been far
                    > different then.
                    > >
                    > > the link is a basic guide to investigate a possible
                    > archaeological site.
                    > >
                    > > http://answers. yahoo.com/ question/ index?qid= 20071122231522AA G3r4e
                    > >
                    > > mike
                    > >
                    >

                  • mike white
                    the program on the history channel about 10,000 bce got me thinking. it discussed the clovis tradition, and how it was more concentrated around maryland. it
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 3, 2009
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                          the program on the history channel about 10,000 bce got me thinking.  it discussed the clovis tradition, and how it was more concentrated around maryland.  it was fairly short-lived, with the technical groundwork leading to it absent.  i know little about this, so concentrate on the subject, instead of criticising my ignorance.  i hope others can take this further. 
                         the solutrean points are merely similarly shaped, without the shank fluting.  i dont think there is a strong connection.  the same shape is found on the andean plateau. 
                         my leads take me to the susquehanna river, and the algonquians. 
                      "The Susquehanna River (originally "Sasquesahanough" according to the 1612 John Smith map)"  note the resemblance to andean place names. 
                         with research we may determine that the algonquians, one of the first nations of north america, may have originated from peru.  they must have came by 13,000 bce, via boats.  they already had the basic point developed, and the atlatl spear thrower.  so were prepared to hunt the megafauna south of the glaciers.  the game died out from rapid climate change, when fresh melt water stopped the saline heat conveyor.  this probably forced them to adopt the bow and arrow for smaller game.  i dont think the absence of clovis points meant the hunters died out, they may have been forced to change methods and game.  humans adapt, and there were plenty of deer, bear, elk, and buffalo remaining. 
                          just my take ...
                       
                       
                      mike
                       
                       
                    • Rick Osmon
                      Mike, There s nothing wrong with your logic regarding those facts you considered. However, one of the most prominent features of that History Channel program,
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 4, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Mike,

                        There's nothing wrong with your logic regarding those facts you considered. However, one of the most prominent features of that History Channel program, Journey to 10,000 BC, was the presentation by West, Firestone, et al of extensive evidence for  a cometary strike coincident with the demise of both Clovis and their prey animals and it's the one fact missing from your reasoning.

                        "Rapid climate change" was, according to their theory, a massive firestorm that engulfed much of the continent, suffocating the large animals, some smaller animals,  and man. The "black mat" formed by the carbon "fallout" is now verified as ocurring directly on top of the Clovis horizon at six known Clovis dig sites and even in caves, so the atmosphere after the event was certainly laden, permeated with "nano-diamond soot", radioactive iridium, other heavy metal dust, and several other things less than conducive to sustaining life. Adapting as you described simply wasn't an option because they survived the event for mere days, if at all. Instead, it is much more likely that Clovis was completely replaced by a new migration of people whose technology was suited or crafted  to the new environment, either before arriving or very soon after. The replacing population may not have arrived for several thousand years or there may have been one or more failed mogrations between Clovis and Fulsom, the record simply isn't extensive enough to know for sure. What we can surmise is that the population remained comparatively small and sporadic until about 9500BP (Kennewick Man's period) followed by steady growth in both numbers and sophistication.

                        As to the Alqonquin originating in Peru, you're correct about the point styles and reasonably close on the time of arrivsal, but, the DNA indicates a much different place of origin. A Brown University study concluded that the Haplo markers and mutation indicators show a founding population in the low hundreds migrating from Europe beginning just after the Yunger-Dryas at about 10,500 to 8,800 BP.  Contrary opinions place the population in the low thousands and dating to the first milleneum CE. A third, generally disregarded calculation placed the population at less than twenty and dating to as early as 38,000 BCE. But all that DNA study was about Haplo X and European origin for the North Eastern North Americans in that Haplo group  including and especially Algonquin. They share bloodlines with Celts, Basque, and some semitic peoples. They all also share an elevated ocurrance of Rh negative blood type and a strong tendency towards cronic or severe rheumatoid arthritis.

                        I think they got the points and a few other cultual markers through contact and trade -by sea-with Peru.


                        Warm Regards

                        Oz

                        --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white" <infoplz@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > the program on the history channel about 10,000 bce got me thinking. it discussed the clovis tradition, and how it was more concentrated around maryland. it was fairly short-lived, with the technical groundwork leading to it absent. i know little about this, so concentrate on the subject, instead of criticising my ignorance. i hope others can take this further.
                        > the solutrean points are merely similarly shaped, without the shank fluting. i dont think there is a strong connection. the same shape is found on the andean plateau.
                        > my leads take me to the susquehanna river, and the algonquians.
                        > "The Susquehanna River (originally "Sasquesahanough" according to the 1612 John Smith map)" note the resemblance to andean place names.
                        > with research we may determine that the algonquians, one of the first nations of north america, may have originated from peru. they must have came by 13,000 bce, via boats. they already had the basic point developed, and the atlatl spear thrower. so were prepared to hunt the megafauna south of the glaciers. the game died out from rapid climate change, when fresh melt water stopped the saline heat conveyor. this probably forced them to adopt the bow and arrow for smaller game. i dont think the absence of clovis points meant the hunters died out, they may have been forced to change methods and game. humans adapt, and there were plenty of deer, bear, elk, and buffalo remaining.
                        > just my take ...
                        >
                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susquehanna_River
                        >
                        > mike
                        >
                      • mike white
                        hi oz, all thanks for your thoughtful reply. we may have seen different programs. im aware of the recent theory of a meteor swarm destroying the clovis
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 4, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                           
                          hi oz, all
                           
                             thanks for your thoughtful reply.  we may have seen different programs.  im aware of the recent theory of a meteor swarm destroying the clovis culture.  the show i saw emphasized that glacial melt was rerouted down the st lawrence, stalling the saline heat conveyor.  its fairly certain this event happened, and that the climate change was fast and dramatic. 
                             the presence of the layer of meteoric clay and iridium may not point to impacts at that time.  a tsunami could have washed these deposits from the seafloor, and deposited them upon the land. 
                              the submersion of atlantis could have sent tsunami waves over america.  many connect a poleshift with that event, that triggers tsunamis, quakes, volcanoes, and other global disasters.  the megafauna of our west and east asia were definitely swept north by tsunami. 
                             we need to put the whole thing together to understand what must have happened 12-14,000 years ago.  many must have perished, with a bottleneck of humanity. 
                             the loss of the megafauna could have caused the survivors to give up clovis points, in favor of arrowheads. 
                             dna results can be confusing.  they were not sampling men of that era, and modern natives mixed with fishermen in the northeast, and vikings in new england.  even later andean migrants could have carried dna from several old world nations. 
                             we should note that there were no true hebrew until abraham, no earlier that 6000 bce [mainstream 1500 bce].  noah and ophir were probably of the red race of atlantis.  we may all relate to them, or other survivors of the great deluge, for those who believe in that universal tale. 
                             i was pursuing whether we could connect the algonquian to the clovis culture, and thru language, dna, or points - back to andean races. 
                           
                          mike
                           
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:32 AM
                          Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america

                          Mike,

                          There's nothing wrong with your logic regarding those facts you considered. However, one of the most prominent features of that History Channel program, Journey to 10,000 BC, was the presentation by West, Firestone, et al of extensive evidence for  a cometary strike coincident with the demise of both Clovis and their prey animals and it's the one fact missing from your reasoning.

                          "Rapid climate change" was, according to their theory, a massive firestorm that engulfed much of the continent, suffocating the large animals, some smaller animals,  and man. The "black mat" formed by the carbon "fallout" is now verified as ocurring directly on top of the Clovis horizon at six known Clovis dig sites and even in caves, so the atmosphere after the event was certainly laden, permeated with "nano-diamond soot", radioactive iridium, other heavy metal dust, and several other things less than conducive to sustaining life. Adapting as you described simply wasn't an option because they survived the event for mere days, if at all. Instead, it is much more likely that Clovis was completely replaced by a new migration of people whose technology was suited or crafted  to the new environment, either before arriving or very soon after. The replacing population may not have arrived for several thousand years or there may have been one or more failed mogrations between Clovis and Fulsom, the record simply isn't extensive enough to know for sure. What we can surmise is that the population remained comparatively small and sporadic until about 9500BP (Kennewick Man's period) followed by steady growth in both numbers and sophistication.

                          As to the Alqonquin originating in Peru, you're correct about the point styles and reasonably close on the time of arrivsal, but, the DNA indicates a much different place of origin. A Brown University study concluded that the Haplo markers and mutation indicators show a founding population in the low hundreds migrating from Europe beginning just after the Yunger-Dryas at about 10,500 to 8,800 BP.  Contrary opinions place the population in the low thousands and dating to the first milleneum CE. A third, generally disregarded calculation placed the population at less than twenty and dating to as early as 38,000 BCE. But all that DNA study was about Haplo X and European origin for the North Eastern North Americans in that Haplo group  including and especially Algonquin. They share bloodlines with Celts, Basque, and some semitic peoples. They all also share an elevated ocurrance of Rh negative blood type and a strong tendency towards cronic or severe rheumatoid arthritis.

                          I think they got the points and a few other cultual markers through contact and trade -by sea-with Peru.


                          Warm Regards

                          Oz

                          --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white" <infoplz@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > the program on the history channel about 10,000 bce got me thinking. it discussed the clovis tradition, and how it was more concentrated around maryland. it was fairly short-lived, with the technical groundwork leading to it absent. i know little about this, so concentrate on the subject, instead of criticising my ignorance. i hope others can take this further.
                          > the solutrean points are merely similarly shaped, without the shank fluting. i dont think there is a strong connection. the same shape is found on the andean plateau.
                          > my leads take me to the susquehanna river, and the algonquians.
                          > "The Susquehanna River (originally "Sasquesahanough" according to the 1612 John Smith map)" note the resemblance to andean place names.
                          > with research we may determine that the algonquians, one of the first nations of north america, may have originated from peru. they must have came by 13,000 bce, via boats. they already had the basic point developed, and the atlatl spear thrower. so were prepared to hunt the megafauna south of the glaciers. the game died out from rapid climate change, when fresh melt water stopped the saline heat conveyor. this probably forced them to adopt the bow and arrow for smaller game. i dont think the absence of clovis points meant the hunters died out, they may have been forced to change methods and game. humans adapt, and there were plenty of deer, bear, elk, and buffalo remaining.
                          > just my take ...
                          >
                          > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Susquehanna_ River
                          >
                          > mike
                          >

                        • mike white
                          i may add a few thoughts to my earlier post. the lenapes seem to have arrived on the east coast later than the algonquian, since they credit the place names,
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 5, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                             
                               i may add a few thoughts to my earlier post.  the lenapes seem to have arrived on the east coast later than the algonquian, since they credit the place names, like the susquehanna, to the algonquian.  im not sure if they are correct, for i recall an earlier study i made, where i learned the lenapes were called 'the grandfathers', and that they had much in common with the early cultures of peru.  i remember seeing a banner stone or atlatl weight that depicted a mammoth hunt, that was said to be a relic of the lenapes.  it could date back to 6,000 bce or earlier.  so it is possible that one of these tribes could be kin to those of the clovis tradition.  men are more resourceful than megafauna, so there were probably survivors of the disaster we think happened.  btw, the megafauna persisted in the southeastern usa down to circa 3000 bce, based on finds made in the mounds of northern florida.  im inclined to think they may have been hunted to extinction there, rather than made extinct by disaster, as were those of the west. 
                             
                            imho
                            mike
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:43 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america

                             
                            hi oz, all
                             
                               thanks for your thoughtful reply.  we may have seen different programs.  im aware of the recent theory of a meteor swarm destroying the clovis culture.  the show i saw emphasized that glacial melt was rerouted down the st lawrence, stalling the saline heat conveyor.  its fairly certain this event happened, and that the climate change was fast and dramatic. 
                               the presence of the layer of meteoric clay and iridium may not point to impacts at that time.  a tsunami could have washed these deposits from the seafloor, and deposited them upon the land. 
                                the submersion of atlantis could have sent tsunami waves over america.  many connect a poleshift with that event, that triggers tsunamis, quakes, volcanoes, and other global disasters.  the megafauna of our west and east asia were definitely swept north by tsunami. 
                               we need to put the whole thing together to understand what must have happened 12-14,000 years ago.  many must have perished, with a bottleneck of humanity. 
                               the loss of the megafauna could have caused the survivors to give up clovis points, in favor of arrowheads. 
                               dna results can be confusing.  they were not sampling men of that era, and modern natives mixed with fishermen in the northeast, and vikings in new england.  even later andean migrants could have carried dna from several old world nations. 
                               we should note that there were no true hebrew until abraham, no earlier that 6000 bce [mainstream 1500 bce].  noah and ophir were probably of the red race of atlantis.  we may all relate to them, or other survivors of the great deluge, for those who believe in that universal tale. 
                               i was pursuing whether we could connect the algonquian to the clovis culture, and thru language, dna, or points - back to andean races. 
                             
                            mike
                             
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:32 AM
                            Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america

                            Mike,

                            There's nothing wrong with your logic regarding those facts you considered. However, one of the most prominent features of that History Channel program, Journey to 10,000 BC, was the presentation by West, Firestone, et al of extensive evidence for  a cometary strike coincident with the demise of both Clovis and their prey animals and it's the one fact missing from your reasoning.

                            "Rapid climate change" was, according to their theory, a massive firestorm that engulfed much of the continent, suffocating the large animals, some smaller animals,  and man. The "black mat" formed by the carbon "fallout" is now verified as ocurring directly on top of the Clovis horizon at six known Clovis dig sites and even in caves, so the atmosphere after the event was certainly laden, permeated with "nano-diamond soot", radioactive iridium, other heavy metal dust, and several other things less than conducive to sustaining life. Adapting as you described simply wasn't an option because they survived the event for mere days, if at all. Instead, it is much more likely that Clovis was completely replaced by a new migration of people whose technology was suited or crafted  to the new environment, either before arriving or very soon after. The replacing population may not have arrived for several thousand years or there may have been one or more failed mogrations between Clovis and Fulsom, the record simply isn't extensive enough to know for sure. What we can surmise is that the population remained comparatively small and sporadic until about 9500BP (Kennewick Man's period) followed by steady growth in both numbers and sophistication.

                            As to the Alqonquin originating in Peru, you're correct about the point styles and reasonably close on the time of arrivsal, but, the DNA indicates a much different place of origin. A Brown University study concluded that the Haplo markers and mutation indicators show a founding population in the low hundreds migrating from Europe beginning just after the Yunger-Dryas at about 10,500 to 8,800 BP.  Contrary opinions place the population in the low thousands and dating to the first milleneum CE. A third, generally disregarded calculation placed the population at less than twenty and dating to as early as 38,000 BCE. But all that DNA study was about Haplo X and European origin for the North Eastern North Americans in that Haplo group  including and especially Algonquin. They share bloodlines with Celts, Basque, and some semitic peoples. They all also share an elevated ocurrance of Rh negative blood type and a strong tendency towards cronic or severe rheumatoid arthritis.

                            I think they got the points and a few other cultual markers through contact and trade -by sea-with Peru.


                            Warm Regards

                            Oz

                            --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white" <infoplz@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > the program on the history channel about 10,000 bce got me thinking. it discussed the clovis tradition, and how it was more concentrated around maryland. it was fairly short-lived, with the technical groundwork leading to it absent. i know little about this, so concentrate on the subject, instead of criticising my ignorance. i hope others can take this further.
                            > the solutrean points are merely similarly shaped, without the shank fluting. i dont think there is a strong connection. the same shape is found on the andean plateau.
                            > my leads take me to the susquehanna river, and the algonquians.
                            > "The Susquehanna River (originally "Sasquesahanough" according to the 1612 John Smith map)" note the resemblance to andean place names.
                            > with research we may determine that the algonquians, one of the first nations of north america, may have originated from peru. they must have came by 13,000 bce, via boats. they already had the basic point developed, and the atlatl spear thrower. so were prepared to hunt the megafauna south of the glaciers. the game died out from rapid climate change, when fresh melt water stopped the saline heat conveyor. this probably forced them to adopt the bow and arrow for smaller game. i dont think the absence of clovis points meant the hunters died out, they may have been forced to change methods and game. humans adapt, and there were plenty of deer, bear, elk, and buffalo remaining.
                            > just my take ...
                            >
                            > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Susquehanna_ River
                            >
                            > mike
                            >

                          • dcampbell75479
                            Could you be more specific with regard to your mention of megafaunal remains found in North Florida mounds? Are you referring to the 1916 discovery of
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 6, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Could you be more specific with regard to your mention of megafaunal
                              remains found in North Florida mounds? Are you referring to the 1916
                              discovery of megafaunal and human remains in Melbourne, Florida?

                              --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                              <infoplz@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > i may add a few thoughts to my earlier post. the lenapes seem to
                              have arrived on the east coast later than the algonquian, since they
                              credit the place names, like the susquehanna, to the algonquian. im
                              not sure if they are correct, for i recall an earlier study i made,
                              where i learned the lenapes were called 'the grandfathers', and that
                              they had much in common with the early cultures of peru. i remember
                              seeing a banner stone or atlatl weight that depicted a mammoth hunt,
                              that was said to be a relic of the lenapes. it could date back to
                              6,000 bce or earlier. so it is possible that one of these tribes
                              could be kin to those of the clovis tradition. men are more
                              resourceful than megafauna, so there were probably survivors of the
                              disaster we think happened. btw, the megafauna persisted in the
                              southeastern usa down to circa 3000 bce, based on finds made in the
                              mounds of northern florida. im inclined to think they may have been
                              hunted to extinction there, rather than made extinct by disaster, as
                              were those of the west.
                              >
                              > imho
                              > mike
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: mike white
                              > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:43 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > hi oz, all
                              >
                              > thanks for your thoughtful reply. we may have seen different
                              programs. im aware of the recent theory of a meteor swarm destroying
                              the clovis culture. the show i saw emphasized that glacial melt was
                              rerouted down the st lawrence, stalling the saline heat conveyor. its
                              fairly certain this event happened, and that the climate change was
                              fast and dramatic.
                              > the presence of the layer of meteoric clay and iridium may not
                              point to impacts at that time. a tsunami could have washed these
                              deposits from the seafloor, and deposited them upon the land.
                              > the submersion of atlantis could have sent tsunami waves over
                              america. many connect a poleshift with that event, that triggers
                              tsunamis, quakes, volcanoes, and other global disasters. the
                              megafauna of our west and east asia were definitely swept north by
                              tsunami.
                              > we need to put the whole thing together to understand what must
                              have happened 12-14,000 years ago. many must have perished, with a
                              bottleneck of humanity.
                              > the loss of the megafauna could have caused the survivors to
                              give up clovis points, in favor of arrowheads.
                              > dna results can be confusing. they were not sampling men of
                              that era, and modern natives mixed with fishermen in the northeast,
                              and vikings in new england. even later andean migrants could have
                              carried dna from several old world nations.
                              > we should note that there were no true hebrew until abraham, no
                              earlier that 6000 bce [mainstream 1500 bce]. noah and ophir were
                              probably of the red race of atlantis. we may all relate to them, or
                              other survivors of the great deluge, for those who believe in that
                              universal tale.
                              > i was pursuing whether we could connect the algonquian to the
                              clovis culture, and thru language, dna, or points - back to andean
                              races.
                              >
                              > mike
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Rick Osmon
                              > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:32 AM
                              > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america
                              >
                              >
                              > Mike,
                              >
                              > There's nothing wrong with your logic regarding those facts you
                              considered. However, one of the most prominent features of that
                              History Channel program, Journey to 10,000 BC, was the presentation by
                              West, Firestone, et al of extensive evidence for a cometary strike
                              coincident with the demise of both Clovis and their prey animals and
                              it's the one fact missing from your reasoning.
                              >
                              > "Rapid climate change" was, according to their theory, a massive
                              firestorm that engulfed much of the continent, suffocating the large
                              animals, some smaller animals, and man. The "black mat" formed by the
                              carbon "fallout" is now verified as ocurring directly on top of the
                              Clovis horizon at six known Clovis dig sites and even in caves, so the
                              atmosphere after the event was certainly laden, permeated with
                              "nano-diamond soot", radioactive iridium, other heavy metal dust, and
                              several other things less than conducive to sustaining life. Adapting
                              as you described simply wasn't an option because they survived the
                              event for mere days, if at all. Instead, it is much more likely that
                              Clovis was completely replaced by a new migration of people whose
                              technology was suited or crafted to the new environment, either
                              before arriving or very soon after. The replacing population may not
                              have arrived for several thousand years or there may have been one or
                              more failed mogrations between Clovis and Fulsom, the record simply
                              isn't extensive enough to know for sure. What we can surmise is that
                              the population remained comparatively small and sporadic until about
                              9500BP (Kennewick Man's period) followed by steady growth in both
                              numbers and sophistication.
                              >
                              > As to the Alqonquin originating in Peru, you're correct about
                              the point styles and reasonably close on the time of arrivsal, but,
                              the DNA indicates a much different place of origin. A Brown University
                              study concluded that the Haplo markers and mutation indicators show a
                              founding population in the low hundreds migrating from Europe
                              beginning just after the Yunger-Dryas at about 10,500 to 8,800 BP.
                              Contrary opinions place the population in the low thousands and dating
                              to the first milleneum CE. A third, generally disregarded calculation
                              placed the population at less than twenty and dating to as early as
                              38,000 BCE. But all that DNA study was about Haplo X and European
                              origin for the North Eastern North Americans in that Haplo group
                              including and especially Algonquin. They share bloodlines with Celts,
                              Basque, and some semitic peoples. They all also share an elevated
                              ocurrance of Rh negative blood type and a strong tendency towards
                              cronic or severe rheumatoid arthritis.
                              >
                              > I think they got the points and a few other cultual markers
                              through contact and trade -by sea-with Peru.
                              >
                              >
                              > Warm Regards
                              >
                              > Oz
                              >
                              > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                              <infoplz@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > the program on the history channel about 10,000 bce got me
                              thinking. it discussed the clovis tradition, and how it was more
                              concentrated around maryland. it was fairly short-lived, with the
                              technical groundwork leading to it absent. i know little about this,
                              so concentrate on the subject, instead of criticising my ignorance. i
                              hope others can take this further.
                              > > the solutrean points are merely similarly shaped, without the
                              shank fluting. i dont think there is a strong connection. the same
                              shape is found on the andean plateau.
                              > > my leads take me to the susquehanna river, and the algonquians.
                              > > "The Susquehanna River (originally "Sasquesahanough" according
                              to the 1612 John Smith map)" note the resemblance to andean place names.
                              > > with research we may determine that the algonquians, one of
                              the first nations of north america, may have originated from peru.
                              they must have came by 13,000 bce, via boats. they already had the
                              basic point developed, and the atlatl spear thrower. so were prepared
                              to hunt the megafauna south of the glaciers. the game died out from
                              rapid climate change, when fresh melt water stopped the saline heat
                              conveyor. this probably forced them to adopt the bow and arrow for
                              smaller game. i dont think the absence of clovis points meant the
                              hunters died out, they may have been forced to change methods and
                              game. humans adapt, and there were plenty of deer, bear, elk, and
                              buffalo remaining.
                              > > just my take ...
                              > >
                              > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susquehanna_River
                              > >
                              > > mike
                              > >
                              >
                            • mike white
                              its been many years since i read of that excavation. i dont recall more details. it may appear in the archive. mike ... From: dcampbell75479 To:
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 6, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                 
                                    its been many years since i read of that excavation.  i dont recall more details.  it may appear in the archive. 
                                 
                                mike
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 10:31 AM
                                Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america

                                Could you be more specific with regard to your mention of megafaunal
                                remains found in North Florida mounds? Are you referring to the 1916
                                discovery of megafaunal and human remains in Melbourne, Florida?

                                --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                                <infoplz@... > wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > i may add a few thoughts to my earlier post. the lenapes seem to
                                have arrived on the east coast later than the algonquian, since they
                                credit the place names, like the susquehanna, to the algonquian. im
                                not sure if they are correct, for i recall an earlier study i made,
                                where i learned the lenapes were called 'the grandfathers' , and that
                                they had much in common with the early cultures of peru. i remember
                                seeing a banner stone or atlatl weight that depicted a mammoth hunt,
                                that was said to be a relic of the lenapes. it could date back to
                                6,000 bce or earlier. so it is possible that one of these tribes
                                could be kin to those of the clovis tradition. men are more
                                resourceful than megafauna, so there were probably survivors of the
                                disaster we think happened. btw, the megafauna persisted in the
                                southeastern usa down to circa 3000 bce, based on finds made in the
                                mounds of northern florida. im inclined to think they may have been
                                hunted to extinction there, rather than made extinct by disaster, as
                                were those of the west.
                                >
                                > imho
                                > mike
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: mike white
                                > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:43 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > hi oz, all
                                >
                                > thanks for your thoughtful reply. we may have seen different
                                programs. im aware of the recent theory of a meteor swarm destroying
                                the clovis culture. the show i saw emphasized that glacial melt was
                                rerouted down the st lawrence, stalling the saline heat conveyor. its
                                fairly certain this event happened, and that the climate change was
                                fast and dramatic.
                                > the presence of the layer of meteoric clay and iridium may not
                                point to impacts at that time. a tsunami could have washed these
                                deposits from the seafloor, and deposited them upon the land.
                                > the submersion of atlantis could have sent tsunami waves over
                                america. many connect a poleshift with that event, that triggers
                                tsunamis, quakes, volcanoes, and other global disasters. the
                                megafauna of our west and east asia were definitely swept north by
                                tsunami.
                                > we need to put the whole thing together to understand what must
                                have happened 12-14,000 years ago. many must have perished, with a
                                bottleneck of humanity.
                                > the loss of the megafauna could have caused the survivors to
                                give up clovis points, in favor of arrowheads.
                                > dna results can be confusing. they were not sampling men of
                                that era, and modern natives mixed with fishermen in the northeast,
                                and vikings in new england. even later andean migrants could have
                                carried dna from several old world nations.
                                > we should note that there were no true hebrew until abraham, no
                                earlier that 6000 bce [mainstream 1500 bce]. noah and ophir were
                                probably of the red race of atlantis. we may all relate to them, or
                                other survivors of the great deluge, for those who believe in that
                                universal tale.
                                > i was pursuing whether we could connect the algonquian to the
                                clovis culture, and thru language, dna, or points - back to andean
                                races.
                                >
                                > mike
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Rick Osmon
                                > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:32 AM
                                > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                >
                                >
                                > Mike,
                                >
                                > There's nothing wrong with your logic regarding those facts you
                                considered. However, one of the most prominent features of that
                                History Channel program, Journey to 10,000 BC, was the presentation by
                                West, Firestone, et al of extensive evidence for a cometary strike
                                coincident with the demise of both Clovis and their prey animals and
                                it's the one fact missing from your reasoning.
                                >
                                > "Rapid climate change" was, according to their theory, a massive
                                firestorm that engulfed much of the continent, suffocating the large
                                animals, some smaller animals, and man. The "black mat" formed by the
                                carbon "fallout" is now verified as ocurring directly on top of the
                                Clovis horizon at six known Clovis dig sites and even in caves, so the
                                atmosphere after the event was certainly laden, permeated with
                                "nano-diamond soot", radioactive iridium, other heavy metal dust, and
                                several other things less than conducive to sustaining life. Adapting
                                as you described simply wasn't an option because they survived the
                                event for mere days, if at all. Instead, it is much more likely that
                                Clovis was completely replaced by a new migration of people whose
                                technology was suited or crafted to the new environment, either
                                before arriving or very soon after. The replacing population may not
                                have arrived for several thousand years or there may have been one or
                                more failed mogrations between Clovis and Fulsom, the record simply
                                isn't extensive enough to know for sure. What we can surmise is that
                                the population remained comparatively small and sporadic until about
                                9500BP (Kennewick Man's period) followed by steady growth in both
                                numbers and sophistication.
                                >
                                > As to the Alqonquin originating in Peru, you're correct about
                                the point styles and reasonably close on the time of arrivsal, but,
                                the DNA indicates a much different place of origin. A Brown University
                                study concluded that the Haplo markers and mutation indicators show a
                                founding population in the low hundreds migrating from Europe
                                beginning just after the Yunger-Dryas at about 10,500 to 8,800 BP.
                                Contrary opinions place the population in the low thousands and dating
                                to the first milleneum CE. A third, generally disregarded calculation
                                placed the population at less than twenty and dating to as early as
                                38,000 BCE. But all that DNA study was about Haplo X and European
                                origin for the North Eastern North Americans in that Haplo group
                                including and especially Algonquin. They share bloodlines with Celts,
                                Basque, and some semitic peoples. They all also share an elevated
                                ocurrance of Rh negative blood type and a strong tendency towards
                                cronic or severe rheumatoid arthritis.
                                >
                                > I think they got the points and a few other cultual markers
                                through contact and trade -by sea-with Peru.
                                >
                                >
                                > Warm Regards
                                >
                                > Oz
                                >
                                > --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                                <infoplz@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > the program on the history channel about 10,000 bce got me
                                thinking. it discussed the clovis tradition, and how it was more
                                concentrated around maryland. it was fairly short-lived, with the
                                technical groundwork leading to it absent. i know little about this,
                                so concentrate on the subject, instead of criticising my ignorance. i
                                hope others can take this further.
                                > > the solutrean points are merely similarly shaped, without the
                                shank fluting. i dont think there is a strong connection. the same
                                shape is found on the andean plateau.
                                > > my leads take me to the susquehanna river, and the algonquians.
                                > > "The Susquehanna River (originally "Sasquesahanough" according
                                to the 1612 John Smith map)" note the resemblance to andean place names.
                                > > with research we may determine that the algonquians, one of
                                the first nations of north america, may have originated from peru.
                                they must have came by 13,000 bce, via boats. they already had the
                                basic point developed, and the atlatl spear thrower. so were prepared
                                to hunt the megafauna south of the glaciers. the game died out from
                                rapid climate change, when fresh melt water stopped the saline heat
                                conveyor. this probably forced them to adopt the bow and arrow for
                                smaller game. i dont think the absence of clovis points meant the
                                hunters died out, they may have been forced to change methods and
                                game. humans adapt, and there were plenty of deer, bear, elk, and
                                buffalo remaining.
                                > > just my take ...
                                > >
                                > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Susquehanna_ River
                                > >
                                > > mike
                                > >
                                >

                              • justice family
                                Are you interested in the mounds or the megafauna? The McKeithen site in north Florida is a rather major mound complex. It is part of the Weeden Island peoples
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 6, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Are you interested in the mounds or the megafauna? The McKeithen site in north Florida is a rather major mound complex. It is part of the Weeden Island peoples that likely developed after the collapse of the Hopwellian culture.
                                   But there was megafauna in Florida such as the Florida Cave Bear and many of the archeological sites are now under water as the Florida panhandle and peninsula were at that time about twice the size as they are now.
                                    Jamye
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:31 AM
                                  Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america

                                  Could you be more specific with regard to your mention of megafaunal
                                  remains found in North Florida mounds? Are you referring to the 1916
                                  discovery of megafaunal and human remains in Melbourne, Florida?

                                  --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                                  <infoplz@... > wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > i may add a few thoughts to my earlier post. the lenapes seem to
                                  have arrived on the east coast later than the algonquian, since they
                                  credit the place names, like the susquehanna, to the algonquian. im
                                  not sure if they are correct, for i recall an earlier study i made,
                                  where i learned the lenapes were called 'the grandfathers' , and that
                                  they had much in common with the early cultures of peru. i remember
                                  seeing a banner stone or atlatl weight that depicted a mammoth hunt,
                                  that was said to be a relic of the lenapes. it could date back to
                                  6,000 bce or earlier. so it is possible that one of these tribes
                                  could be kin to those of the clovis tradition. men are more
                                  resourceful than megafauna, so there were probably survivors of the
                                  disaster we think happened. btw, the megafauna persisted in the
                                  southeastern usa down to circa 3000 bce, based on finds made in the
                                  mounds of northern florida. im inclined to think they may have been
                                  hunted to extinction there, rather than made extinct by disaster, as
                                  were those of the west.
                                  >
                                  > imho
                                  > mike
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: mike white
                                  > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:43 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > hi oz, all
                                  >
                                  > thanks for your thoughtful reply. we may have seen different
                                  programs. im aware of the recent theory of a meteor swarm destroying
                                  the clovis culture. the show i saw emphasized that glacial melt was
                                  rerouted down the st lawrence, stalling the saline heat conveyor. its
                                  fairly certain this event happened, and that the climate change was
                                  fast and dramatic.
                                  > the presence of the layer of meteoric clay and iridium may not
                                  point to impacts at that time. a tsunami could have washed these
                                  deposits from the seafloor, and deposited them upon the land.
                                  > the submersion of atlantis could have sent tsunami waves over
                                  america. many connect a poleshift with that event, that triggers
                                  tsunamis, quakes, volcanoes, and other global disasters. the
                                  megafauna of our west and east asia were definitely swept north by
                                  tsunami.
                                  > we need to put the whole thing together to understand what must
                                  have happened 12-14,000 years ago. many must have perished, with a
                                  bottleneck of humanity.
                                  > the loss of the megafauna could have caused the survivors to
                                  give up clovis points, in favor of arrowheads.
                                  > dna results can be confusing. they were not sampling men of
                                  that era, and modern natives mixed with fishermen in the northeast,
                                  and vikings in new england. even later andean migrants could have
                                  carried dna from several old world nations.
                                  > we should note that there were no true hebrew until abraham, no
                                  earlier that 6000 bce [mainstream 1500 bce]. noah and ophir were
                                  probably of the red race of atlantis. we may all relate to them, or
                                  other survivors of the great deluge, for those who believe in that
                                  universal tale.
                                  > i was pursuing whether we could connect the algonquian to the
                                  clovis culture, and thru language, dna, or points - back to andean
                                  races.
                                  >
                                  > mike
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Rick Osmon
                                  > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:32 AM
                                  > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Mike,
                                  >
                                  > There's nothing wrong with your logic regarding those facts you
                                  considered. However, one of the most prominent features of that
                                  History Channel program, Journey to 10,000 BC, was the presentation by
                                  West, Firestone, et al of extensive evidence for a cometary strike
                                  coincident with the demise of both Clovis and their prey animals and
                                  it's the one fact missing from your reasoning.
                                  >
                                  > "Rapid climate change" was, according to their theory, a massive
                                  firestorm that engulfed much of the continent, suffocating the large
                                  animals, some smaller animals, and man. The "black mat" formed by the
                                  carbon "fallout" is now verified as ocurring directly on top of the
                                  Clovis horizon at six known Clovis dig sites and even in caves, so the
                                  atmosphere after the event was certainly laden, permeated with
                                  "nano-diamond soot", radioactive iridium, other heavy metal dust, and
                                  several other things less than conducive to sustaining life. Adapting
                                  as you described simply wasn't an option because they survived the
                                  event for mere days, if at all. Instead, it is much more likely that
                                  Clovis was completely replaced by a new migration of people whose
                                  technology was suited or crafted to the new environment, either
                                  before arriving or very soon after. The replacing population may not
                                  have arrived for several thousand years or there may have been one or
                                  more failed mogrations between Clovis and Fulsom, the record simply
                                  isn't extensive enough to know for sure. What we can surmise is that
                                  the population remained comparatively small and sporadic until about
                                  9500BP (Kennewick Man's period) followed by steady growth in both
                                  numbers and sophistication.
                                  >
                                  > As to the Alqonquin originating in Peru, you're correct about
                                  the point styles and reasonably close on the time of arrivsal, but,
                                  the DNA indicates a much different place of origin. A Brown University
                                  study concluded that the Haplo markers and mutation indicators show a
                                  founding population in the low hundreds migrating from Europe
                                  beginning just after the Yunger-Dryas at about 10,500 to 8,800 BP.
                                  Contrary opinions place the population in the low thousands and dating
                                  to the first milleneum CE. A third, generally disregarded calculation
                                  placed the population at less than twenty and dating to as early as
                                  38,000 BCE. But all that DNA study was about Haplo X and European
                                  origin for the North Eastern North Americans in that Haplo group
                                  including and especially Algonquin. They share bloodlines with Celts,
                                  Basque, and some semitic peoples. They all also share an elevated
                                  ocurrance of Rh negative blood type and a strong tendency towards
                                  cronic or severe rheumatoid arthritis.
                                  >
                                  > I think they got the points and a few other cultual markers
                                  through contact and trade -by sea-with Peru.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Warm Regards
                                  >
                                  > Oz
                                  >
                                  > --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                                  <infoplz@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > the program on the history channel about 10,000 bce got me
                                  thinking. it discussed the clovis tradition, and how it was more
                                  concentrated around maryland. it was fairly short-lived, with the
                                  technical groundwork leading to it absent. i know little about this,
                                  so concentrate on the subject, instead of criticising my ignorance. i
                                  hope others can take this further.
                                  > > the solutrean points are merely similarly shaped, without the
                                  shank fluting. i dont think there is a strong connection. the same
                                  shape is found on the andean plateau.
                                  > > my leads take me to the susquehanna river, and the algonquians.
                                  > > "The Susquehanna River (originally "Sasquesahanough" according
                                  to the 1612 John Smith map)" note the resemblance to andean place names.
                                  > > with research we may determine that the algonquians, one of
                                  the first nations of north america, may have originated from peru.
                                  they must have came by 13,000 bce, via boats. they already had the
                                  basic point developed, and the atlatl spear thrower. so were prepared
                                  to hunt the megafauna south of the glaciers. the game died out from
                                  rapid climate change, when fresh melt water stopped the saline heat
                                  conveyor. this probably forced them to adopt the bow and arrow for
                                  smaller game. i dont think the absence of clovis points meant the
                                  hunters died out, they may have been forced to change methods and
                                  game. humans adapt, and there were plenty of deer, bear, elk, and
                                  buffalo remaining.
                                  > > just my take ...
                                  > >
                                  > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Susquehanna_ River
                                  > >
                                  > > mike
                                  > >
                                  >



                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                                  Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.3/1878 - Release Date: 1/6/2009 7:56 AM
                                • dcampbell75479
                                  Actually I m interested in the discovery of supposedly extinct megafauna in a 3,000 year old mound. There was a similar rumor of one a few years back in a
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 6, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Actually I'm interested in the discovery of supposedly extinct
                                    megafauna in a 3,000 year old mound. There was a similar rumor of one
                                    a few years back in a mound accidentally discovered by road
                                    construction near the Louisiana/Texas border. Queries were made at the
                                    Texas Archeological Society list but it was summarily dismissed by an
                                    archaeologist who was connected with the Friesenhahn Cave in Texas.
                                    Friesenhahn had had a flurry of excitement in the early 80's when it
                                    was claimed that human artifacts were found in direct association with
                                    the extensive Pleistocene faunal remains there. That was long before
                                    the excavations at Gault and Aubrey and hardliners were very uptight
                                    about anything that might push the Clovis Barrier too hard. Monte
                                    Verde was not yet fully accepted and all the Little Dutch Boys and
                                    Girls were getting very insecure with all the holes popping up in
                                    their dikes. Anyway, Wrangel Island's pygmy mammoths were the latest
                                    confirmed survivors of the Pleistocene megafauna that I knew of. There
                                    has been evidence that a type of four tusked mastodon survived much
                                    later in Mexico than further up in North America and I seem to recall
                                    one was found at the Monte Verde site as well. I don't see it as out
                                    of the question that pockets of survivors remained in the Southeast
                                    that late; I'd just like to have some more specifics to research and
                                    maybe ask of Andy Hemmings, a Florida archaeologist who has been
                                    working on some preClovis sites there recently. Also I'd like to
                                    clarify if the mound is one of the early ones like Watson Brakes or
                                    merely a shell mound type which extend back to the Paleoindian/Archaic
                                    Transition. Robert Silverberg had placed the Adena back to 1,000 BC
                                    back in 1969 but I'm sure that's been revised back in the intervening
                                    years. He was of the opinion then that the Hopewell revival of
                                    moundbuilding accounted for the mounds found along the Gulf Coast all
                                    the way to Texas and Oklahoma but I think Poverty Point and Watson
                                    Brakes along with others indicates that they are if anything older
                                    than the Adena and certainly older than the Ohio and Wisconsin sites.
                                    The famous elephant effigy pipe was never proven to be a hoax to my
                                    satisfaction and seemed to be the product of the ideological
                                    infighting of the period. While I don't think it was the result of Old
                                    World contact, I do think it could reflect a very old tradition going
                                    back to the Paleoindian period. Alternatively, it could represent a
                                    late survival of mammoth or mastodon either known directly or through
                                    transmitted descriptions from another part of the country. Since a
                                    number of other elephant effigies have been found elsewhere in the
                                    Americas, I don't think it represents a one-of-a-kind anomaly but
                                    rather a motif tradition similar to the winged serpent and others of
                                    later cultures.
                                    --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "justice family"
                                    <justice_thunder@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Are you interested in the mounds or the megafauna? The McKeithen
                                    site in north Florida is a rather major mound complex. It is part of
                                    the Weeden Island peoples that likely developed after the collapse of
                                    the Hopwellian culture.
                                    > But there was megafauna in Florida such as the Florida Cave Bear
                                    and many of the archeological sites are now under water as the Florida
                                    panhandle and peninsula were at that time about twice the size as they
                                    are now.
                                    > Jamye
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: dcampbell75479
                                    > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:31 AM
                                    > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Could you be more specific with regard to your mention of megafaunal
                                    > remains found in North Florida mounds? Are you referring to the 1916
                                    > discovery of megafaunal and human remains in Melbourne, Florida?
                                    >
                                    > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                                    > <infoplz@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > i may add a few thoughts to my earlier post. the lenapes seem to
                                    > have arrived on the east coast later than the algonquian, since they
                                    > credit the place names, like the susquehanna, to the algonquian. im
                                    > not sure if they are correct, for i recall an earlier study i made,
                                    > where i learned the lenapes were called 'the grandfathers', and that
                                    > they had much in common with the early cultures of peru. i remember
                                    > seeing a banner stone or atlatl weight that depicted a mammoth hunt,
                                    > that was said to be a relic of the lenapes. it could date back to
                                    > 6,000 bce or earlier. so it is possible that one of these tribes
                                    > could be kin to those of the clovis tradition. men are more
                                    > resourceful than megafauna, so there were probably survivors of the
                                    > disaster we think happened. btw, the megafauna persisted in the
                                    > southeastern usa down to circa 3000 bce, based on finds made in the
                                    > mounds of northern florida. im inclined to think they may have been
                                    > hunted to extinction there, rather than made extinct by disaster, as
                                    > were those of the west.
                                    > >
                                    > > imho
                                    > > mike
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: mike white
                                    > > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:43 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > hi oz, all
                                    > >
                                    > > thanks for your thoughtful reply. we may have seen different
                                    > programs. im aware of the recent theory of a meteor swarm destroying
                                    > the clovis culture. the show i saw emphasized that glacial melt was
                                    > rerouted down the st lawrence, stalling the saline heat conveyor. its
                                    > fairly certain this event happened, and that the climate change was
                                    > fast and dramatic.
                                    > > the presence of the layer of meteoric clay and iridium may not
                                    > point to impacts at that time. a tsunami could have washed these
                                    > deposits from the seafloor, and deposited them upon the land.
                                    > > the submersion of atlantis could have sent tsunami waves over
                                    > america. many connect a poleshift with that event, that triggers
                                    > tsunamis, quakes, volcanoes, and other global disasters. the
                                    > megafauna of our west and east asia were definitely swept north by
                                    > tsunami.
                                    > > we need to put the whole thing together to understand what must
                                    > have happened 12-14,000 years ago. many must have perished, with a
                                    > bottleneck of humanity.
                                    > > the loss of the megafauna could have caused the survivors to
                                    > give up clovis points, in favor of arrowheads.
                                    > > dna results can be confusing. they were not sampling men of
                                    > that era, and modern natives mixed with fishermen in the northeast,
                                    > and vikings in new england. even later andean migrants could have
                                    > carried dna from several old world nations.
                                    > > we should note that there were no true hebrew until abraham, no
                                    > earlier that 6000 bce [mainstream 1500 bce]. noah and ophir were
                                    > probably of the red race of atlantis. we may all relate to them, or
                                    > other survivors of the great deluge, for those who believe in that
                                    > universal tale.
                                    > > i was pursuing whether we could connect the algonquian to the
                                    > clovis culture, and thru language, dna, or points - back to andean
                                    > races.
                                    > >
                                    > > mike
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: Rick Osmon
                                    > > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:32 AM
                                    > > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Mike,
                                    > >
                                    > > There's nothing wrong with your logic regarding those facts you
                                    > considered. However, one of the most prominent features of that
                                    > History Channel program, Journey to 10,000 BC, was the presentation by
                                    > West, Firestone, et al of extensive evidence for a cometary strike
                                    > coincident with the demise of both Clovis and their prey animals and
                                    > it's the one fact missing from your reasoning.
                                    > >
                                    > > "Rapid climate change" was, according to their theory, a massive
                                    > firestorm that engulfed much of the continent, suffocating the large
                                    > animals, some smaller animals, and man. The "black mat" formed by the
                                    > carbon "fallout" is now verified as ocurring directly on top of the
                                    > Clovis horizon at six known Clovis dig sites and even in caves, so the
                                    > atmosphere after the event was certainly laden, permeated with
                                    > "nano-diamond soot", radioactive iridium, other heavy metal dust, and
                                    > several other things less than conducive to sustaining life. Adapting
                                    > as you described simply wasn't an option because they survived the
                                    > event for mere days, if at all. Instead, it is much more likely that
                                    > Clovis was completely replaced by a new migration of people whose
                                    > technology was suited or crafted to the new environment, either
                                    > before arriving or very soon after. The replacing population may not
                                    > have arrived for several thousand years or there may have been one or
                                    > more failed mogrations between Clovis and Fulsom, the record simply
                                    > isn't extensive enough to know for sure. What we can surmise is that
                                    > the population remained comparatively small and sporadic until about
                                    > 9500BP (Kennewick Man's period) followed by steady growth in both
                                    > numbers and sophistication.
                                    > >
                                    > > As to the Alqonquin originating in Peru, you're correct about
                                    > the point styles and reasonably close on the time of arrivsal, but,
                                    > the DNA indicates a much different place of origin. A Brown University
                                    > study concluded that the Haplo markers and mutation indicators show a
                                    > founding population in the low hundreds migrating from Europe
                                    > beginning just after the Yunger-Dryas at about 10,500 to 8,800 BP.
                                    > Contrary opinions place the population in the low thousands and dating
                                    > to the first milleneum CE. A third, generally disregarded calculation
                                    > placed the population at less than twenty and dating to as early as
                                    > 38,000 BCE. But all that DNA study was about Haplo X and European
                                    > origin for the North Eastern North Americans in that Haplo group
                                    > including and especially Algonquin. They share bloodlines with Celts,
                                    > Basque, and some semitic peoples. They all also share an elevated
                                    > ocurrance of Rh negative blood type and a strong tendency towards
                                    > cronic or severe rheumatoid arthritis.
                                    > >
                                    > > I think they got the points and a few other cultual markers
                                    > through contact and trade -by sea-with Peru.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Warm Regards
                                    > >
                                    > > Oz
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                                    > <infoplz@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > the program on the history channel about 10,000 bce got me
                                    > thinking. it discussed the clovis tradition, and how it was more
                                    > concentrated around maryland. it was fairly short-lived, with the
                                    > technical groundwork leading to it absent. i know little about this,
                                    > so concentrate on the subject, instead of criticising my ignorance. i
                                    > hope others can take this further.
                                    > > > the solutrean points are merely similarly shaped, without the
                                    > shank fluting. i dont think there is a strong connection. the same
                                    > shape is found on the andean plateau.
                                    > > > my leads take me to the susquehanna river, and the algonquians.
                                    > > > "The Susquehanna River (originally "Sasquesahanough" according
                                    > to the 1612 John Smith map)" note the resemblance to andean place
                                    names.
                                    > > > with research we may determine that the algonquians, one of
                                    > the first nations of north america, may have originated from peru.
                                    > they must have came by 13,000 bce, via boats. they already had the
                                    > basic point developed, and the atlatl spear thrower. so were prepared
                                    > to hunt the megafauna south of the glaciers. the game died out from
                                    > rapid climate change, when fresh melt water stopped the saline heat
                                    > conveyor. this probably forced them to adopt the bow and arrow for
                                    > smaller game. i dont think the absence of clovis points meant the
                                    > hunters died out, they may have been forced to change methods and
                                    > game. humans adapt, and there were plenty of deer, bear, elk, and
                                    > buffalo remaining.
                                    > > > just my take ...
                                    > > >
                                    > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susquehanna_River
                                    > > >
                                    > > > mike
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                    > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                                    > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.3/1878 - Release Date:
                                    1/6/2009 7:56 AM
                                    >
                                  • mike white
                                    ive not found the exact mention cited, but these may interest you. i believe it was relics found among shell middens in northeast florida. while looking i
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 6, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                       
                                         ive not found the exact mention cited, but these may interest you.  i believe it was relics found among shell middens in northeast florida. 
                                         while looking i came upon the work of clarence moore.  one of philadelphia's richest and most fascinating families.  the names moore, bloomfield, and jessup were often connected with interesting things like keeley, philadelphia experiment, etc.  he bought a flat-bottom steamboat, and explored and excavated much of the southeast.  he was a prolific writer.  ive found 8 books of his on amazon.  dear price for used paperbacks, but i may buy a few.  i think he went down with the titanic.  maybe not, his death is listed as 1918.     
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                         aparently, moore used two steamboats, the gopher and the alligator.  last link is about the found wreck of the alligator. 
                                       
                                      mike
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:24 PM
                                      Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america

                                      Actually I'm interested in the discovery of supposedly extinct
                                      megafauna in a 3,000 year old mound. There was a similar rumor of one
                                      a few years back in a mound accidentally discovered by road
                                      construction near the Louisiana/Texas border. Queries were made at the
                                      Texas Archeological Society list but it was summarily dismissed by an
                                      archaeologist who was connected with the Friesenhahn Cave in Texas.
                                      Friesenhahn had had a flurry of excitement in the early 80's when it
                                      was claimed that human artifacts were found in direct association with
                                      the extensive Pleistocene faunal remains there. That was long before
                                      the excavations at Gault and Aubrey and hardliners were very uptight
                                      about anything that might push the Clovis Barrier too hard. Monte
                                      Verde was not yet fully accepted and all the Little Dutch Boys and
                                      Girls were getting very insecure with all the holes popping up in
                                      their dikes. Anyway, Wrangel Island's pygmy mammoths were the latest
                                      confirmed survivors of the Pleistocene megafauna that I knew of. There
                                      has been evidence that a type of four tusked mastodon survived much
                                      later in Mexico than further up in North America and I seem to recall
                                      one was found at the Monte Verde site as well. I don't see it as out
                                      of the question that pockets of survivors remained in the Southeast
                                      that late; I'd just like to have some more specifics to research and
                                      maybe ask of Andy Hemmings, a Florida archaeologist who has been
                                      working on some preClovis sites there recently. Also I'd like to
                                      clarify if the mound is one of the early ones like Watson Brakes or
                                      merely a shell mound type which extend back to the Paleoindian/ Archaic
                                      Transition. Robert Silverberg had placed the Adena back to 1,000 BC
                                      back in 1969 but I'm sure that's been revised back in the intervening
                                      years. He was of the opinion then that the Hopewell revival of
                                      moundbuilding accounted for the mounds found along the Gulf Coast all
                                      the way to Texas and Oklahoma but I think Poverty Point and Watson
                                      Brakes along with others indicates that they are if anything older
                                      than the Adena and certainly older than the Ohio and Wisconsin sites.
                                      The famous elephant effigy pipe was never proven to be a hoax to my
                                      satisfaction and seemed to be the product of the ideological
                                      infighting of the period. While I don't think it was the result of Old
                                      World contact, I do think it could reflect a very old tradition going
                                      back to the Paleoindian period. Alternatively, it could represent a
                                      late survival of mammoth or mastodon either known directly or through
                                      transmitted descriptions from another part of the country. Since a
                                      number of other elephant effigies have been found elsewhere in the
                                      Americas, I don't think it represents a one-of-a-kind anomaly but
                                      rather a motif tradition similar to the winged serpent and others of
                                      later cultures.
                                      --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "justice family"
                                      <justice_thunder@ ...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Are you interested in the mounds or the megafauna? The McKeithen
                                      site in north Florida is a rather major mound complex. It is part of
                                      the Weeden Island peoples that likely developed after the collapse of
                                      the Hopwellian culture.
                                      > But there was megafauna in Florida such as the Florida Cave Bear
                                      and many of the archeological sites are now under water as the Florida
                                      panhandle and peninsula were at that time about twice the size as they
                                      are now.
                                      > Jamye
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: dcampbell75479
                                      > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:31 AM
                                      > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Could you be more specific with regard to your mention of megafaunal
                                      > remains found in North Florida mounds? Are you referring to the 1916
                                      > discovery of megafaunal and human remains in Melbourne, Florida?
                                      >
                                      > --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                                      > <infoplz@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > i may add a few thoughts to my earlier post. the lenapes seem to
                                      > have arrived on the east coast later than the algonquian, since they
                                      > credit the place names, like the susquehanna, to the algonquian. im
                                      > not sure if they are correct, for i recall an earlier study i made,
                                      > where i learned the lenapes were called 'the grandfathers' , and that
                                      > they had much in common with the early cultures of peru. i remember
                                      > seeing a banner stone or atlatl weight that depicted a mammoth hunt,
                                      > that was said to be a relic of the lenapes. it could date back to
                                      > 6,000 bce or earlier. so it is possible that one of these tribes
                                      > could be kin to those of the clovis tradition. men are more
                                      > resourceful than megafauna, so there were probably survivors of the
                                      > disaster we think happened. btw, the megafauna persisted in the
                                      > southeastern usa down to circa 3000 bce, based on finds made in the
                                      > mounds of northern florida. im inclined to think they may have been
                                      > hunted to extinction there, rather than made extinct by disaster, as
                                      > were those of the west.
                                      > >
                                      > > imho
                                      > > mike
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: mike white
                                      > > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:43 PM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > hi oz, all
                                      > >
                                      > > thanks for your thoughtful reply. we may have seen different
                                      > programs. im aware of the recent theory of a meteor swarm destroying
                                      > the clovis culture. the show i saw emphasized that glacial melt was
                                      > rerouted down the st lawrence, stalling the saline heat conveyor. its
                                      > fairly certain this event happened, and that the climate change was
                                      > fast and dramatic.
                                      > > the presence of the layer of meteoric clay and iridium may not
                                      > point to impacts at that time. a tsunami could have washed these
                                      > deposits from the seafloor, and deposited them upon the land.
                                      > > the submersion of atlantis could have sent tsunami waves over
                                      > america. many connect a poleshift with that event, that triggers
                                      > tsunamis, quakes, volcanoes, and other global disasters. the
                                      > megafauna of our west and east asia were definitely swept north by
                                      > tsunami.
                                      > > we need to put the whole thing together to understand what must
                                      > have happened 12-14,000 years ago. many must have perished, with a
                                      > bottleneck of humanity.
                                      > > the loss of the megafauna could have caused the survivors to
                                      > give up clovis points, in favor of arrowheads.
                                      > > dna results can be confusing. they were not sampling men of
                                      > that era, and modern natives mixed with fishermen in the northeast,
                                      > and vikings in new england. even later andean migrants could have
                                      > carried dna from several old world nations.
                                      > > we should note that there were no true hebrew until abraham, no
                                      > earlier that 6000 bce [mainstream 1500 bce]. noah and ophir were
                                      > probably of the red race of atlantis. we may all relate to them, or
                                      > other survivors of the great deluge, for those who believe in that
                                      > universal tale.
                                      > > i was pursuing whether we could connect the algonquian to the
                                      > clovis culture, and thru language, dna, or points - back to andean
                                      > races.
                                      > >
                                      > > mike
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: Rick Osmon
                                      > > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:32 AM
                                      > > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Mike,
                                      > >
                                      > > There's nothing wrong with your logic regarding those facts you
                                      > considered. However, one of the most prominent features of that
                                      > History Channel program, Journey to 10,000 BC, was the presentation by
                                      > West, Firestone, et al of extensive evidence for a cometary strike
                                      > coincident with the demise of both Clovis and their prey animals and
                                      > it's the one fact missing from your reasoning.
                                      > >
                                      > > "Rapid climate change" was, according to their theory, a massive
                                      > firestorm that engulfed much of the continent, suffocating the large
                                      > animals, some smaller animals, and man. The "black mat" formed by the
                                      > carbon "fallout" is now verified as ocurring directly on top of the
                                      > Clovis horizon at six known Clovis dig sites and even in caves, so the
                                      > atmosphere after the event was certainly laden, permeated with
                                      > "nano-diamond soot", radioactive iridium, other heavy metal dust, and
                                      > several other things less than conducive to sustaining life. Adapting
                                      > as you described simply wasn't an option because they survived the
                                      > event for mere days, if at all. Instead, it is much more likely that
                                      > Clovis was completely replaced by a new migration of people whose
                                      > technology was suited or crafted to the new environment, either
                                      > before arriving or very soon after. The replacing population may not
                                      > have arrived for several thousand years or there may have been one or
                                      > more failed mogrations between Clovis and Fulsom, the record simply
                                      > isn't extensive enough to know for sure. What we can surmise is that
                                      > the population remained comparatively small and sporadic until about
                                      > 9500BP (Kennewick Man's period) followed by steady growth in both
                                      > numbers and sophistication.
                                      > >
                                      > > As to the Alqonquin originating in Peru, you're correct about
                                      > the point styles and reasonably close on the time of arrivsal, but,
                                      > the DNA indicates a much different place of origin. A Brown University
                                      > study concluded that the Haplo markers and mutation indicators show a
                                      > founding population in the low hundreds migrating from Europe
                                      > beginning just after the Yunger-Dryas at about 10,500 to 8,800 BP.
                                      > Contrary opinions place the population in the low thousands and dating
                                      > to the first milleneum CE. A third, generally disregarded calculation
                                      > placed the population at less than twenty and dating to as early as
                                      > 38,000 BCE. But all that DNA study was about Haplo X and European
                                      > origin for the North Eastern North Americans in that Haplo group
                                      > including and especially Algonquin. They share bloodlines with Celts,
                                      > Basque, and some semitic peoples. They all also share an elevated
                                      > ocurrance of Rh negative blood type and a strong tendency towards
                                      > cronic or severe rheumatoid arthritis.
                                      > >
                                      > > I think they got the points and a few other cultual markers
                                      > through contact and trade -by sea-with Peru.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Warm Regards
                                      > >
                                      > > Oz
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                                      > <infoplz@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > the program on the history channel about 10,000 bce got me
                                      > thinking. it discussed the clovis tradition, and how it was more
                                      > concentrated around maryland. it was fairly short-lived, with the
                                      > technical groundwork leading to it absent. i know little about this,
                                      > so concentrate on the subject, instead of criticising my ignorance. i
                                      > hope others can take this further.
                                      > > > the solutrean points are merely similarly shaped, without the
                                      > shank fluting. i dont think there is a strong connection. the same
                                      > shape is found on the andean plateau.
                                      > > > my leads take me to the susquehanna river, and the algonquians.
                                      > > > "The Susquehanna River (originally "Sasquesahanough" according
                                      > to the 1612 John Smith map)" note the resemblance to andean place
                                      names.
                                      > > > with research we may determine that the algonquians, one of
                                      > the first nations of north america, may have originated from peru.
                                      > they must have came by 13,000 bce, via boats. they already had the
                                      > basic point developed, and the atlatl spear thrower. so were prepared
                                      > to hunt the megafauna south of the glaciers. the game died out from
                                      > rapid climate change, when fresh melt water stopped the saline heat
                                      > conveyor. this probably forced them to adopt the bow and arrow for
                                      > smaller game. i dont think the absence of clovis points meant the
                                      > hunters died out, they may have been forced to change methods and
                                      > game. humans adapt, and there were plenty of deer, bear, elk, and
                                      > buffalo remaining.
                                      > > > just my take ...
                                      > > >
                                      > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Susquehanna_ River
                                      > > >
                                      > > > mike
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                      > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
                                      > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.3/1878 - Release Date:
                                      1/6/2009 7:56 AM
                                      >

                                    • Judi Sharp
                                      For lots of work by Clarence Moore, search his name at books.google.com. Enjoy reading all y all have to say. Judi ... From: mike white To:
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 6, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        For lots of work by Clarence Moore, search his name at books.google.com.
                                         
                                        Enjoy reading all y'all have to say.
                                         
                                        Judi
                                         
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:52 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america

                                         
                                           ive not found the exact mention cited, but these may interest you.  i believe it was relics found among shell middens in northeast florida. 
                                           while looking i came upon the work of clarence moore.  one of philadelphia' s richest and most fascinating families.  the names moore, bloomfield, and jessup were often connected with interesting things like keeley, philadelphia experiment, etc.  he bought a flat-bottom steamboat, and explored and excavated much of the southeast.  he was a prolific writer.  ive found 8 books of his on amazon.  dear price for used paperbacks, but i may buy a few.  i think he went down with the titanic.  maybe not, his death is listed as 1918.     
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                           aparently, moore used two steamboats, the gopher and the alligator.  last link is about the found wreck of the alligator. 
                                         
                                        mike
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:24 PM
                                        Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america

                                        Actually I'm interested in the discovery of supposedly extinct
                                        megafauna in a 3,000 year old mound. There was a similar rumor of one
                                        a few years back in a mound accidentally discovered by road
                                        construction near the Louisiana/Texas border. Queries were made at the
                                        Texas Archeological Society list but it was summarily dismissed by an
                                        archaeologist who was connected with the Friesenhahn Cave in Texas.
                                        Friesenhahn had had a flurry of excitement in the early 80's when it
                                        was claimed that human artifacts were found in direct association with
                                        the extensive Pleistocene faunal remains there. That was long before
                                        the excavations at Gault and Aubrey and hardliners were very uptight
                                        about anything that might push the Clovis Barrier too hard. Monte
                                        Verde was not yet fully accepted and all the Little Dutch Boys and
                                        Girls were getting very insecure with all the holes popping up in
                                        their dikes. Anyway, Wrangel Island's pygmy mammoths were the latest
                                        confirmed survivors of the Pleistocene megafauna that I knew of. There
                                        has been evidence that a type of four tusked mastodon survived much
                                        later in Mexico than further up in North America and I seem to recall
                                        one was found at the Monte Verde site as well. I don't see it as out
                                        of the question that pockets of survivors remained in the Southeast
                                        that late; I'd just like to have some more specifics to research and
                                        maybe ask of Andy Hemmings, a Florida archaeologist who has been
                                        working on some preClovis sites there recently. Also I'd like to
                                        clarify if the mound is one of the early ones like Watson Brakes or
                                        merely a shell mound type which extend back to the Paleoindian/ Archaic
                                        Transition. Robert Silverberg had placed the Adena back to 1,000 BC
                                        back in 1969 but I'm sure that's been revised back in the intervening
                                        years. He was of the opinion then that the Hopewell revival of
                                        moundbuilding accounted for the mounds found along the Gulf Coast all
                                        the way to Texas and Oklahoma but I think Poverty Point and Watson
                                        Brakes along with others indicates that they are if anything older
                                        than the Adena and certainly older than the Ohio and Wisconsin sites.
                                        The famous elephant effigy pipe was never proven to be a hoax to my
                                        satisfaction and seemed to be the product of the ideological
                                        infighting of the period. While I don't think it was the result of Old
                                        World contact, I do think it could reflect a very old tradition going
                                        back to the Paleoindian period. Alternatively, it could represent a
                                        late survival of mammoth or mastodon either known directly or through
                                        transmitted descriptions from another part of the country. Since a
                                        number of other elephant effigies have been found elsewhere in the
                                        Americas, I don't think it represents a one-of-a-kind anomaly but
                                        rather a motif tradition similar to the winged serpent and others of
                                        later cultures.
                                        --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "justice family"
                                        <justice_thunder@ ...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Are you interested in the mounds or the megafauna? The McKeithen
                                        site in north Florida is a rather major mound complex. It is part of
                                        the Weeden Island peoples that likely developed after the collapse of
                                        the Hopwellian culture.
                                        > But there was megafauna in Florida such as the Florida Cave Bear
                                        and many of the archeological sites are now under water as the Florida
                                        panhandle and peninsula were at that time about twice the size as they
                                        are now.
                                        > Jamye
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: dcampbell75479
                                        > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:31 AM
                                        > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Could you be more specific with regard to your mention of megafaunal
                                        > remains found in North Florida mounds? Are you referring to the 1916
                                        > discovery of megafaunal and human remains in Melbourne, Florida?
                                        >
                                        > --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                                        > <infoplz@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > i may add a few thoughts to my earlier post. the lenapes seem to
                                        > have arrived on the east coast later than the algonquian, since they
                                        > credit the place names, like the susquehanna, to the algonquian. im
                                        > not sure if they are correct, for i recall an earlier study i made,
                                        > where i learned the lenapes were called 'the grandfathers' , and that
                                        > they had much in common with the early cultures of peru. i remember
                                        > seeing a banner stone or atlatl weight that depicted a mammoth hunt,
                                        > that was said to be a relic of the lenapes. it could date back to
                                        > 6,000 bce or earlier. so it is possible that one of these tribes
                                        > could be kin to those of the clovis tradition. men are more
                                        > resourceful than megafauna, so there were probably survivors of the
                                        > disaster we think happened. btw, the megafauna persisted in the
                                        > southeastern usa down to circa 3000 bce, based on finds made in the
                                        > mounds of northern florida. im inclined to think they may have been
                                        > hunted to extinction there, rather than made extinct by disaster, as
                                        > were those of the west.
                                        > >
                                        > > imho
                                        > > mike
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: mike white
                                        > > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:43 PM
                                        > > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > hi oz, all
                                        > >
                                        > > thanks for your thoughtful reply. we may have seen different
                                        > programs. im aware of the recent theory of a meteor swarm destroying
                                        > the clovis culture. the show i saw emphasized that glacial melt was
                                        > rerouted down the st lawrence, stalling the saline heat conveyor. its
                                        > fairly certain this event happened, and that the climate change was
                                        > fast and dramatic.
                                        > > the presence of the layer of meteoric clay and iridium may not
                                        > point to impacts at that time. a tsunami could have washed these
                                        > deposits from the seafloor, and deposited them upon the land.
                                        > > the submersion of atlantis could have sent tsunami waves over
                                        > america. many connect a poleshift with that event, that triggers
                                        > tsunamis, quakes, volcanoes, and other global disasters. the
                                        > megafauna of our west and east asia were definitely swept north by
                                        > tsunami.
                                        > > we need to put the whole thing together to understand what must
                                        > have happened 12-14,000 years ago. many must have perished, with a
                                        > bottleneck of humanity.
                                        > > the loss of the megafauna could have caused the survivors to
                                        > give up clovis points, in favor of arrowheads.
                                        > > dna results can be confusing. they were not sampling men of
                                        > that era, and modern natives mixed with fishermen in the northeast,
                                        > and vikings in new england. even later andean migrants could have
                                        > carried dna from several old world nations.
                                        > > we should note that there were no true hebrew until abraham, no
                                        > earlier that 6000 bce [mainstream 1500 bce]. noah and ophir were
                                        > probably of the red race of atlantis. we may all relate to them, or
                                        > other survivors of the great deluge, for those who believe in that
                                        > universal tale.
                                        > > i was pursuing whether we could connect the algonquian to the
                                        > clovis culture, and thru language, dna, or points - back to andean
                                        > races.
                                        > >
                                        > > mike
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: Rick Osmon
                                        > > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:32 AM
                                        > > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Mike,
                                        > >
                                        > > There's nothing wrong with your logic regarding those facts you
                                        > considered. However, one of the most prominent features of that
                                        > History Channel program, Journey to 10,000 BC, was the presentation by
                                        > West, Firestone, et al of extensive evidence for a cometary strike
                                        > coincident with the demise of both Clovis and their prey animals and
                                        > it's the one fact missing from your reasoning.
                                        > >
                                        > > "Rapid climate change" was, according to their theory, a massive
                                        > firestorm that engulfed much of the continent, suffocating the large
                                        > animals, some smaller animals, and man. The "black mat" formed by the
                                        > carbon "fallout" is now verified as ocurring directly on top of the
                                        > Clovis horizon at six known Clovis dig sites and even in caves, so the
                                        > atmosphere after the event was certainly laden, permeated with
                                        > "nano-diamond soot", radioactive iridium, other heavy metal dust, and
                                        > several other things less than conducive to sustaining life. Adapting
                                        > as you described simply wasn't an option because they survived the
                                        > event for mere days, if at all. Instead, it is much more likely that
                                        > Clovis was completely replaced by a new migration of people whose
                                        > technology was suited or crafted to the new environment, either
                                        > before arriving or very soon after. The replacing population may not
                                        > have arrived for several thousand years or there may have been one or
                                        > more failed mogrations between Clovis and Fulsom, the record simply
                                        > isn't extensive enough to know for sure. What we can surmise is that
                                        > the population remained comparatively small and sporadic until about
                                        > 9500BP (Kennewick Man's period) followed by steady growth in both
                                        > numbers and sophistication.
                                        > >
                                        > > As to the Alqonquin originating in Peru, you're correct about
                                        > the point styles and reasonably close on the time of arrivsal, but,
                                        > the DNA indicates a much different place of origin. A Brown University
                                        > study concluded that the Haplo markers and mutation indicators show a
                                        > founding population in the low hundreds migrating from Europe
                                        > beginning just after the Yunger-Dryas at about 10,500 to 8,800 BP.
                                        > Contrary opinions place the population in the low thousands and dating
                                        > to the first milleneum CE. A third, generally disregarded calculation
                                        > placed the population at less than twenty and dating to as early as
                                        > 38,000 BCE. But all that DNA study was about Haplo X and European
                                        > origin for the North Eastern North Americans in that Haplo group
                                        > including and especially Algonquin. They share bloodlines with Celts,
                                        > Basque, and some semitic peoples. They all also share an elevated
                                        > ocurrance of Rh negative blood type and a strong tendency towards
                                        > cronic or severe rheumatoid arthritis.
                                        > >
                                        > > I think they got the points and a few other cultual markers
                                        > through contact and trade -by sea-with Peru.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Warm Regards
                                        > >
                                        > > Oz
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                                        > <infoplz@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > the program on the history channel about 10,000 bce got me
                                        > thinking. it discussed the clovis tradition, and how it was more
                                        > concentrated around maryland. it was fairly short-lived, with the
                                        > technical groundwork leading to it absent. i know little about this,
                                        > so concentrate on the subject, instead of criticising my ignorance. i
                                        > hope others can take this further.
                                        > > > the solutrean points are merely similarly shaped, without the
                                        > shank fluting. i dont think there is a strong connection. the same
                                        > shape is found on the andean plateau.
                                        > > > my leads take me to the susquehanna river, and the algonquians.
                                        > > > "The Susquehanna River (originally "Sasquesahanough" according
                                        > to the 1612 John Smith map)" note the resemblance to andean place
                                        names.
                                        > > > with research we may determine that the algonquians, one of
                                        > the first nations of north america, may have originated from peru.
                                        > they must have came by 13,000 bce, via boats. they already had the
                                        > basic point developed, and the atlatl spear thrower. so were prepared
                                        > to hunt the megafauna south of the glaciers. the game died out from
                                        > rapid climate change, when fresh melt water stopped the saline heat
                                        > conveyor. this probably forced them to adopt the bow and arrow for
                                        > smaller game. i dont think the absence of clovis points meant the
                                        > hunters died out, they may have been forced to change methods and
                                        > game. humans adapt, and there were plenty of deer, bear, elk, and
                                        > buffalo remaining.
                                        > > > just my take ...
                                        > > >
                                        > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Susquehanna_ River
                                        > > >
                                        > > > mike
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                        > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
                                        > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.3/1878 - Release Date:
                                        1/6/2009 7:56 AM
                                        >



                                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                                        Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                                        Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.3/1879 - Release Date: 1/6/2009 5:16 PM
                                      • mike white
                                        thanks judi excellent suggestion, i found lots of material, so may not need to buy books. http://books.google.com/books?q=clarence+moore&btnG=Search+Books
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 6, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                           
                                          thanks judi
                                           
                                             excellent suggestion, i found lots of material, so may not need to buy books. 
                                           
                                           
                                             there must have been more than one famous clarence b moore.  the one we follow died in 1936. 
                                             in my library i found another book by frank hibbens, 'treasures in the dust'.  later i may review it. 
                                           
                                          mike
                                           
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 8:12 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: north america

                                          For lots of work by Clarence Moore, search his name at books.google. com.
                                           
                                          Enjoy reading all y'all have to say.
                                           
                                          Judi
                                           
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:52 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america

                                           
                                             ive not found the exact mention cited, but these may interest you.  i believe it was relics found among shell middens in northeast florida. 
                                             while looking i came upon the work of clarence moore.  one of philadelphia' s richest and most fascinating families.  the names moore, bloomfield, and jessup were often connected with interesting things like keeley, philadelphia experiment, etc.  he bought a flat-bottom steamboat, and explored and excavated much of the southeast.  he was a prolific writer.  ive found 8 books of his on amazon.  dear price for used paperbacks, but i may buy a few.  i think he went down with the titanic.  maybe not, his death is listed as 1918.     
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                             aparently, moore used two steamboats, the gopher and the alligator.  last link is about the found wreck of the alligator. 
                                           
                                          mike
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:24 PM
                                          Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america

                                          Actually I'm interested in the discovery of supposedly extinct
                                          megafauna in a 3,000 year old mound. There was a similar rumor of one
                                          a few years back in a mound accidentally discovered by road
                                          construction near the Louisiana/Texas border. Queries were made at the
                                          Texas Archeological Society list but it was summarily dismissed by an
                                          archaeologist who was connected with the Friesenhahn Cave in Texas.
                                          Friesenhahn had had a flurry of excitement in the early 80's when it
                                          was claimed that human artifacts were found in direct association with
                                          the extensive Pleistocene faunal remains there. That was long before
                                          the excavations at Gault and Aubrey and hardliners were very uptight
                                          about anything that might push the Clovis Barrier too hard. Monte
                                          Verde was not yet fully accepted and all the Little Dutch Boys and
                                          Girls were getting very insecure with all the holes popping up in
                                          their dikes. Anyway, Wrangel Island's pygmy mammoths were the latest
                                          confirmed survivors of the Pleistocene megafauna that I knew of. There
                                          has been evidence that a type of four tusked mastodon survived much
                                          later in Mexico than further up in North America and I seem to recall
                                          one was found at the Monte Verde site as well. I don't see it as out
                                          of the question that pockets of survivors remained in the Southeast
                                          that late; I'd just like to have some more specifics to research and
                                          maybe ask of Andy Hemmings, a Florida archaeologist who has been
                                          working on some preClovis sites there recently. Also I'd like to
                                          clarify if the mound is one of the early ones like Watson Brakes or
                                          merely a shell mound type which extend back to the Paleoindian/ Archaic
                                          Transition. Robert Silverberg had placed the Adena back to 1,000 BC
                                          back in 1969 but I'm sure that's been revised back in the intervening
                                          years. He was of the opinion then that the Hopewell revival of
                                          moundbuilding accounted for the mounds found along the Gulf Coast all
                                          the way to Texas and Oklahoma but I think Poverty Point and Watson
                                          Brakes along with others indicates that they are if anything older
                                          than the Adena and certainly older than the Ohio and Wisconsin sites.
                                          The famous elephant effigy pipe was never proven to be a hoax to my
                                          satisfaction and seemed to be the product of the ideological
                                          infighting of the period. While I don't think it was the result of Old
                                          World contact, I do think it could reflect a very old tradition going
                                          back to the Paleoindian period. Alternatively, it could represent a
                                          late survival of mammoth or mastodon either known directly or through
                                          transmitted descriptions from another part of the country. Since a
                                          number of other elephant effigies have been found elsewhere in the
                                          Americas, I don't think it represents a one-of-a-kind anomaly but
                                          rather a motif tradition similar to the winged serpent and others of
                                          later cultures.
                                          --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "justice family"
                                          <justice_thunder@ ...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Are you interested in the mounds or the megafauna? The McKeithen
                                          site in north Florida is a rather major mound complex. It is part of
                                          the Weeden Island peoples that likely developed after the collapse of
                                          the Hopwellian culture.
                                          > But there was megafauna in Florida such as the Florida Cave Bear
                                          and many of the archeological sites are now under water as the Florida
                                          panhandle and peninsula were at that time about twice the size as they
                                          are now.
                                          > Jamye
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: dcampbell75479
                                          > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                          > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:31 AM
                                          > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Could you be more specific with regard to your mention of megafaunal
                                          > remains found in North Florida mounds? Are you referring to the 1916
                                          > discovery of megafaunal and human remains in Melbourne, Florida?
                                          >
                                          > --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                                          > <infoplz@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > i may add a few thoughts to my earlier post. the lenapes seem to
                                          > have arrived on the east coast later than the algonquian, since they
                                          > credit the place names, like the susquehanna, to the algonquian. im
                                          > not sure if they are correct, for i recall an earlier study i made,
                                          > where i learned the lenapes were called 'the grandfathers' , and that
                                          > they had much in common with the early cultures of peru. i remember
                                          > seeing a banner stone or atlatl weight that depicted a mammoth hunt,
                                          > that was said to be a relic of the lenapes. it could date back to
                                          > 6,000 bce or earlier. so it is possible that one of these tribes
                                          > could be kin to those of the clovis tradition. men are more
                                          > resourceful than megafauna, so there were probably survivors of the
                                          > disaster we think happened. btw, the megafauna persisted in the
                                          > southeastern usa down to circa 3000 bce, based on finds made in the
                                          > mounds of northern florida. im inclined to think they may have been
                                          > hunted to extinction there, rather than made extinct by disaster, as
                                          > were those of the west.
                                          > >
                                          > > imho
                                          > > mike
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > From: mike white
                                          > > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                          > > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:43 PM
                                          > > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > hi oz, all
                                          > >
                                          > > thanks for your thoughtful reply. we may have seen different
                                          > programs. im aware of the recent theory of a meteor swarm destroying
                                          > the clovis culture. the show i saw emphasized that glacial melt was
                                          > rerouted down the st lawrence, stalling the saline heat conveyor. its
                                          > fairly certain this event happened, and that the climate change was
                                          > fast and dramatic.
                                          > > the presence of the layer of meteoric clay and iridium may not
                                          > point to impacts at that time. a tsunami could have washed these
                                          > deposits from the seafloor, and deposited them upon the land.
                                          > > the submersion of atlantis could have sent tsunami waves over
                                          > america. many connect a poleshift with that event, that triggers
                                          > tsunamis, quakes, volcanoes, and other global disasters. the
                                          > megafauna of our west and east asia were definitely swept north by
                                          > tsunami.
                                          > > we need to put the whole thing together to understand what must
                                          > have happened 12-14,000 years ago. many must have perished, with a
                                          > bottleneck of humanity.
                                          > > the loss of the megafauna could have caused the survivors to
                                          > give up clovis points, in favor of arrowheads.
                                          > > dna results can be confusing. they were not sampling men of
                                          > that era, and modern natives mixed with fishermen in the northeast,
                                          > and vikings in new england. even later andean migrants could have
                                          > carried dna from several old world nations.
                                          > > we should note that there were no true hebrew until abraham, no
                                          > earlier that 6000 bce [mainstream 1500 bce]. noah and ophir were
                                          > probably of the red race of atlantis. we may all relate to them, or
                                          > other survivors of the great deluge, for those who believe in that
                                          > universal tale.
                                          > > i was pursuing whether we could connect the algonquian to the
                                          > clovis culture, and thru language, dna, or points - back to andean
                                          > races.
                                          > >
                                          > > mike
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > From: Rick Osmon
                                          > > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                          > > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:32 AM
                                          > > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] Re: north america
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Mike,
                                          > >
                                          > > There's nothing wrong with your logic regarding those facts you
                                          > considered. However, one of the most prominent features of that
                                          > History Channel program, Journey to 10,000 BC, was the presentation by
                                          > West, Firestone, et al of extensive evidence for a cometary strike
                                          > coincident with the demise of both Clovis and their prey animals and
                                          > it's the one fact missing from your reasoning.
                                          > >
                                          > > "Rapid climate change" was, according to their theory, a massive
                                          > firestorm that engulfed much of the continent, suffocating the large
                                          > animals, some smaller animals, and man. The "black mat" formed by the
                                          > carbon "fallout" is now verified as ocurring directly on top of the
                                          > Clovis horizon at six known Clovis dig sites and even in caves, so the
                                          > atmosphere after the event was certainly laden, permeated with
                                          > "nano-diamond soot", radioactive iridium, other heavy metal dust, and
                                          > several other things less than conducive to sustaining life. Adapting
                                          > as you described simply wasn't an option because they survived the
                                          > event for mere days, if at all. Instead, it is much more likely that
                                          > Clovis was completely replaced by a new migration of people whose
                                          > technology was suited or crafted to the new environment, either
                                          > before arriving or very soon after. The replacing population may not
                                          > have arrived for several thousand years or there may have been one or
                                          > more failed mogrations between Clovis and Fulsom, the record simply
                                          > isn't extensive enough to know for sure. What we can surmise is that
                                          > the population remained comparatively small and sporadic until about
                                          > 9500BP (Kennewick Man's period) followed by steady growth in both
                                          > numbers and sophistication.
                                          > >
                                          > > As to the Alqonquin originating in Peru, you're correct about
                                          > the point styles and reasonably close on the time of arrivsal, but,
                                          > the DNA indicates a much different place of origin. A Brown University
                                          > study concluded that the Haplo markers and mutation indicators show a
                                          > founding population in the low hundreds migrating from Europe
                                          > beginning just after the Yunger-Dryas at about 10,500 to 8,800 BP.
                                          > Contrary opinions place the population in the low thousands and dating
                                          > to the first milleneum CE. A third, generally disregarded calculation
                                          > placed the population at less than twenty and dating to as early as
                                          > 38,000 BCE. But all that DNA study was about Haplo X and European
                                          > origin for the North Eastern North Americans in that Haplo group
                                          > including and especially Algonquin. They share bloodlines with Celts,
                                          > Basque, and some semitic peoples. They all also share an elevated
                                          > ocurrance of Rh negative blood type and a strong tendency towards
                                          > cronic or severe rheumatoid arthritis.
                                          > >
                                          > > I think they got the points and a few other cultual markers
                                          > through contact and trade -by sea-with Peru.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Warm Regards
                                          > >
                                          > > Oz
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, "mike white"
                                          > <infoplz@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > the program on the history channel about 10,000 bce got me
                                          > thinking. it discussed the clovis tradition, and how it was more
                                          > concentrated around maryland. it was fairly short-lived, with the
                                          > technical groundwork leading to it absent. i know little about this,
                                          > so concentrate on the subject, instead of criticising my ignorance. i
                                          > hope others can take this further.
                                          > > > the solutrean points are merely similarly shaped, without the
                                          > shank fluting. i dont think there is a strong connection. the same
                                          > shape is found on the andean plateau.
                                          > > > my leads take me to the susquehanna river, and the algonquians.
                                          > > > "The Susquehanna River (originally "Sasquesahanough" according
                                          > to the 1612 John Smith map)" note the resemblance to andean place
                                          names.
                                          > > > with research we may determine that the algonquians, one of
                                          > the first nations of north america, may have originated from peru.
                                          > they must have came by 13,000 bce, via boats. they already had the
                                          > basic point developed, and the atlatl spear thrower. so were prepared
                                          > to hunt the megafauna south of the glaciers. the game died out from
                                          > rapid climate change, when fresh melt water stopped the saline heat
                                          > conveyor. this probably forced them to adopt the bow and arrow for
                                          > smaller game. i dont think the absence of clovis points meant the
                                          > hunters died out, they may have been forced to change methods and
                                          > game. humans adapt, and there were plenty of deer, bear, elk, and
                                          > buffalo remaining.
                                          > > > just my take ...
                                          > > >
                                          > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Susquehanna_ River
                                          > > >
                                          > > > mike
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                        • Phil Whitley
                                          This, in my opinion, is an important find. The dating is pretty well confirmed due to the protein residue left on the tools (camels and American horses - both
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Feb 25, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            This, in my opinion, is an important find. The dating is pretty well confirmed due to the protein residue left on the tools (camels and American horses - both extinct at the end of the Pleistocene).

                                            13,000 Clovis-era tool cache unearthed in Colorado shows evidence of camel, horse butchering

                                            <SNIP>
                                            A biochemical analysis of a rare Clovis-era stone tool cache recently unearthed in the city limits of Boulder, Colo., indicates some of the implements were used to butcher ice-age camels and horses that roamed North America until their extinction about 13,000 years ago, according to a University of Colorado at Boulder study.

                                            The study is the first to identify protein residue from extinct camels on North American stone tools and only the second to identify horse protein residue on a Clovis-age tool, said CU-Boulder Anthropology Professor Douglas Bamforth, who led the study. The cache is one of only a handful of Clovis-age artifact caches that have been unearthed in North America, said Bamforth, who studies Paleoindian culture and tools.

                                            The Clovis culture is believed by many archaeologists to coincide with the time the first Americans arrived on the continent from Asia via the Bering Land Bridge about 13,000 to 13,500 years ago, Bamforth said.
                                            <END SNIP>

                                            Be sure to check out the images linked at the bottom of the article!

                                            Brew

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