Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] 1421 : the year china discovered america by menzies

Expand Messages
  • Luis Andrade
    Hi Mike, Wow, Menzies... Yes, I agree with you about his ideas. There have been many whole discussions about his books in the China History Forum (
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 15, 2008
      Hi Mike,

      Wow, Menzies... Yes, I agree with you about his ideas. There have been many whole discussions about his books in the China History Forum (http://www.chinahistoryforum.com). If not already familiar with it, go there and search about Menzies.

      Best.

      Luis


      On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 7:35 AM, mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:

       
      more proofs and support online here :
       
       
         so far im not impressed.  he seems to grope for answers, and jumps to conclusions, that appear unwarranted.  for instance, after finding accurate maps of the new world, made 68 years before columbus, he says it could not have been northern europeans, claiming that they could hardly cross the english channel.  the

    • mike white
      the book is not complete online, some pages were left out, but too many were included for me. i offer it for your perusal, without my endorsement. i suggest
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 15, 2008
         
           the book is not complete online, some pages were left out, but too many were included for me.  i offer it for your perusal, without my endorsement.  i suggest that the author read hapgood's 'maps of the ancient sea kings', and be guided by his methodology.  i like china, but cannot give them credit unless its due.  china in the 13th c could not navigate to japan.  author admits that almost all of the records of its earlier explorations were burned in the 16th c.  we concede that they had huge vessels capable of ocean crossings, and invented the compass long before the west, and that they reached the west coast of the americas before the spaniards.  however, that alone doesnt prove that they navigated the world, and created the accurate maps cited.   
         
        mike
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 6:46 AM
        Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] 1421 : the year china discovered america by menzies

      • Phil Whitley
        Mike, I bought this book by Menzies after hearing him as a guest on Coast to Coast am. The Amazon site you provided is only their look inside feature. I
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 15, 2008
          Mike, I bought this book by Menzies after hearing him as a guest on Coast to Coast am. The Amazon site you provided is only their "look inside" feature. I found his methodology to be very thorough. The overwhelming proof of his theoy (for me) was the DNA studies of the flora and  fauna he found in the visited islands proved that their origin was China. I'll have to re-read portions to get the facts straight, but there was a particular breed of chicken that was not indigenous to the southern hemisphere, being found only in China. There was also a type of tree that was found that had been imported. They (the Chinese) were the first to find a way to navigate the southern hemisphere and resolve the latitude.

          I was convinced of the author's credibility until you posted. Since I value your opinion so very highly, I will now really have to re-read the book!

          Phil (Brew)

          ==========

          mike white wrote:

           
             the book is not complete online, some pages were left out, but too many were included for me.  i offer it for your perusal, without my endorsement.  i suggest that the author read hapgood's 'maps of the ancient sea kings', and be guided by his methodology.  i like china, but cannot give them credit unless its due.  china in the 13th c could not navigate to japan.  author admits that almost all of the records of its earlier explorations were burned in the 16th c.  we concede that they had huge vessels capable of ocean crossings, and invented the compass long before the west, and that they reached the west coast of the americas before the spaniards.  however, that alone doesnt prove that they navigated the world, and created the accurate maps cited.   
           
          mike



          No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1727 - Release Date: 10/15/2008 8:02 PM
        • mike white
          i can only speak of first impressions, based on the issues i cited. ive just began the book. no doubt there was two-way diffusion between the americas and
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 15, 2008
             
               i can only speak of first impressions, based on the issues i cited.  ive just began the book.  no doubt there was two-way diffusion between the americas and china.  china got peanuts from south america, and mexico got shellac from china, etc.  there were many nations actively trading by sea, we cant be sure if traders were responsible or the chinese themselves.  ive found some proof that the shang were mariners, having arrived in china by sea.  so they could have traded with the americas from china.  plus i have a large ming jade bison, that points to chinese having seen our bison before the 9th c.  i just question his premise that a chinese fleet navigated the world and drew the charts between 1400 and 1428 ce, based on the evidence he has cited so far. 
               i value your opinion highly also brew.  sometimes we differ, as friends can do.  its possible that a few loose remarks by the author has detracted from an otherwise good set of proofs.  in fairness we need to view it from the whole. 
             
            mike
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 10:44 PM
            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] 1421 : the year china discovered america by menzies

            Mike, I bought this book by Menzies after hearing him as a guest on Coast to Coast am. The Amazon site you provided is only their "look inside" feature. I found his methodology to be very thorough. The overwhelming proof of his theoy (for me) was the DNA studies of the flora and  fauna he found in the visited islands proved that their origin was China. I'll have to re-read portions to get the facts straight, but there was a particular breed of chicken that was not indigenous to the southern hemisphere, being found only in China. There was also a type of tree that was found that had been imported. They (the Chinese) were the first to find a way to navigate the southern hemisphere and resolve the latitude.

            I was convinced of the author's credibility until you posted. Since I value your opinion so very highly, I will now really have to re-read the book!

            Phil (Brew)

            ==========

            mike white wrote:

             
               the book is not complete online, some pages were left out, but too many were included for me.  i offer it for your perusal, without my endorsement.  i suggest that the author read hapgood's 'maps of the ancient sea kings', and be guided by his methodology.  i like china, but cannot give them credit unless its due.  china in the 13th c could not navigate to japan.  author admits that almost all of the records of its earlier explorations were burned in the 16th c.  we concede that they had huge vessels capable of ocean crossings, and invented the compass long before the west, and that they reached the west coast of the americas before the spaniards.  however, that alone doesnt prove that they navigated the world, and created the accurate maps cited.   
             
            mike



            No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1727 - Release Date: 10/15/2008 8:02 PM

          • mike white
            btw, the jade bison is from the tang dynasty, not the ming, a slip of the tongue. author was impressed with china, rightly so, but he went overboard. most
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 17, 2008
               
                 btw, the jade bison is from the 'tang' dynasty, not the ming, a slip of the tongue. 
                 author was impressed with china, rightly so, but he went overboard.  most of his comparisons were between china and europe, that was still in the dark ages.  the arabs, india, mexico, and peru, may have been better choices. 
                 the great fleets had thousands of ships, and exploration and science were less important than the awe factor.  few of these ships returned to china.  even an insignificant enemy could have destroyed such fleets with a few fire ships.  the few that made it back alive may have convinced the chinese that there were other great powers to contend with.  this may be why they stopped their armadas and became isolationists within 150 years.  its hard to fathom why they would burn all of the documents associated with their exploration, particularly if science was as important as they say. 
                 it was a great feat to overthrow the mongols in such a short time.  luxury and ease, plus a few thousand concubines, weakened them.  its difficult to find many chinese today without some mongolian blood, so they made a huge impression on the gene pool. 
                 note that when the emperor upsets the mandarins that the doctors act.  the usual remedy for all such ills is mercury, sometimes with arsenic. 
                 i finished the 62 page preview, without finding anything that would lead me to believe that the chinese of 1421 ce could have produced accurate maps, navigated the southern hemisphere, explored the atlantic, or had established colonies in the americas. 
                 im not encouraged to buy the book, but welcome those who have read it to post their opinions, and reasons why we should accept the claims put forth by the author. 
                 its probable that they reached the western shores of the americas, and perhaps inland to the grand canyon.  making it to australia and new zealand, and to trading partners in the indian ocean is believable.  envoys from most of these nations had reached beijing before the voyage, and may have piloted the armada.  all of this still falls far short of what is claimed. 
                  he perpetuates the exotic mystery of the orient.  the same thinking that led scholars to adopt the theory that east asians populated all of the americas after 12,000 bce.  the truth is that chinese culture before 2000 bce was non-existent or little developed.  most of the culture they had was imported from india, including rice and silk.  there is no evidence of a dense population in china before 2000 bce.  it would be more credible to believe the high culture of peru and mexico, with its ancient dense population, had populated east asia.  in fact, some of us believe that was indeed the case, with the mongolians migrating there from the americas. 
                 it would be interesting to learn when the mongolians migrated to asia.  the magyar are fast to deny any kinship to the mongolians.  the mongols are proud of the magyar, and consider them related.  it still puzzles me, for i believe they both originated in the americas, but their arrival in asia may have been in different eras and by other routes.  i would guess that the magyar arrived first, and may have began with nimrod circa 26,000 bce.  the mongols probably arrived across the behring straits after the collapse of the gobi empire, maybe 9000 bce. 
                 before 10,000 bce i believe the great nations of asia were centered in the gobi, and indo-china, tibet, and india.  all either colonies or greatly influenced by lemuria. 
                 it appears china reached the apex under foreigners with the shang and mongols, until modern times when it attained to be a world power on its own. 
               
              imho
              mike
               
               
            • Phil Whitley
              I ve begun re-reading 1421, Mike, but I found Gavin Menzies website where he offers an indexed guide to Evidence . It is much more thorough than anything I
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 17, 2008
                I've begun re-reading 1421, Mike, but I found Gavin Menzies website where he offers an indexed guide to "Evidence". It is much more thorough than anything I could do justice to. Here is the page from his website...

                http://www.gavinmenzies.net/pages/evidence-1421/index.asp

                The links at the top will carry you back to his home page, and also the reference material on his later book, 1434.
                After hearing him speak on C2C and reading the book, I am convinced that he is very, very close to the truth - but as you probably remember, I am also convinced that Sitchin is on the mark (I'm a sucker for unconventional material).

                I really wish you would read the entire book...the maps, the genetic evidence, the flora and fauna, all combine to present a very good case (IMO)

                (Please excuse my stealing your font type - I find it very easy to read)

                Phil

                =============


                mike white wrote:

                 
                   btw, the jade bison is from the 'tang' dynasty, not the ming, a slip of the tongue. 
                   author was impressed with china, rightly so, but he went overboard.  most of his comparisons were between china and europe, that was still in the dark ages.  the arabs, india, mexico, and peru, may have been better choices. 
                   the great fleets had thousands of ships, and exploration and science were less important than the awe factor.  few of these ships returned to china.  even an insignificant enemy could have destroyed such fleets with a few fire ships.  the few that made it back alive may have convinced the chinese that there were other great powers to contend with.  this may be why they stopped their armadas and became isolationists within 150 years.  its hard to fathom why they would burn all of the documents associated with their exploration, particularly if science was as important as they say. 
                   it was a great feat to overthrow the mongols in such a short time.  luxury and ease, plus a few thousand concubines, weakened them.  its difficult to find many chinese today without some mongolian blood, so they made a huge impression on the gene pool. 
                   note that when the emperor upsets the mandarins that the doctors act.  the usual remedy for all such ills is mercury, sometimes with arsenic. 
                   i finished the 62 page preview, without finding anything that would lead me to believe that the chinese of 1421 ce could have produced accurate maps, navigated the southern hemisphere, explored the atlantic, or had established colonies in the americas. 
                   im not encouraged to buy the book, but welcome those who have read it to post their opinions, and reasons why we should accept the claims put forth by the author. 
                   its probable that they reached the western shores of the americas, and perhaps inland to the grand canyon.  making it to australia and new zealand, and to trading partners in the indian ocean is believable.  envoys from most of these nations had reached beijing before the voyage, and may have piloted the armada.  all of this still falls far short of what is claimed. 
                    he perpetuates the exotic mystery of the orient.  the same thinking that led scholars to adopt the theory that east asians populated all of the americas after 12,000 bce.  the truth is that chinese culture before 2000 bce was non-existent or little developed.  most of the culture they had was imported from india, including rice and silk.  there is no evidence of a dense population in china before 2000 bce.  it would be more credible to believe the high culture of peru and mexico, with its ancient dense population, had populated east asia.  in fact, some of us believe that was indeed the case, with the mongolians migrating there from the americas. 
                   it would be interesting to learn when the mongolians migrated to asia.  the magyar are fast to deny any kinship to the mongolians.  the mongols are proud of the magyar, and consider them related.  it still puzzles me, for i believe they both originated in the americas, but their arrival in asia may have been in different eras and by other routes.  i would guess that the magyar arrived first, and may have began with nimrod circa 26,000 bce.  the mongols probably arrived across the behring straits after the collapse of the gobi empire, maybe 9000 bce. 
                   before 10,000 bce i believe the great nations of asia were centered in the gobi, and indo-china, tibet, and india.  all either colonies or greatly influenced by lemuria. 
                   it appears china reached the apex under foreigners with the shang and mongols, until modern times when it attained to be a world power on its own. 
                 
                imho
                mike
                 
                 

                No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1729 - Release Date: 10/16/2008 7:12 PM
              • mike white
                hi brew, all the font is easier to read, not a problem. thanks for the link. i opened it up, and will scan thru it this weekend. ive also began another book
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 17, 2008
                   
                  hi brew, all
                   
                     the font is easier to read, not a problem.  thanks for the link.  i opened it up, and will scan thru it this weekend. 
                    ive also began another book online about a us task force sent in 1834 to establish fair trade with southeast asia, and to punish pirates.  i like sailing yarns. 
                   
                  mike
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 7:59 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] 1421 : the year china discovered america by menzies

                  I've begun re-reading 1421, Mike, but I found Gavin Menzies website where he offers an indexed guide to "Evidence". It is much more thorough than anything I could do justice to. Here is the page from his website...

                  http://www.gavinmen zies.net/ pages/evidence- 1421/index. asp

                  The links at the top will carry you back to his home page, and also the reference material on his later book, 1434.
                  After hearing him speak on C2C and reading the book, I am convinced that he is very, very close to the truth - but as you probably remember, I am also convinced that Sitchin is on the mark (I'm a sucker for unconventional material).

                  I really wish you would read the entire book...the maps, the genetic evidence, the flora and fauna, all combine to present a very good case (IMO)

                  (Please excuse my stealing your font type - I find it very easy to read)

                  Phil

                  ============ =


                  mike white wrote:

                   
                     btw, the jade bison is from the 'tang' dynasty, not the ming, a slip of the tongue. 
                     author was impressed with china, rightly so, but he went overboard.  most of his comparisons were between china and europe, that was still in the dark ages.  the arabs, india, mexico, and peru, may have been better choices. 
                     the great fleets had thousands of ships, and exploration and science were less important than the awe factor.  few of these ships returned to china.  even an insignificant enemy could have destroyed such fleets with a few fire ships.  the few that made it back alive may have convinced the chinese that there were other great powers to contend with.  this may be why they stopped their armadas and became isolationists within 150 years.  its hard to fathom why they would burn all of the documents associated with their exploration, particularly if science was as important as they say. 
                     it was a great feat to overthrow the mongols in such a short time.  luxury and ease, plus a few thousand concubines, weakened them.  its difficult to find many chinese today without some mongolian blood, so they made a huge impression on the gene pool. 
                     note that when the emperor upsets the mandarins that the doctors act.  the usual remedy for all such ills is mercury, sometimes with arsenic. 
                     i finished the 62 page preview, without finding anything that would lead me to believe that the chinese of 1421 ce could have produced accurate maps, navigated the southern hemisphere, explored the atlantic, or had established colonies in the americas. 
                     im not encouraged to buy the book, but welcome those who have read it to post their opinions, and reasons why we should accept the claims put forth by the author. 
                     its probable that they reached the western shores of the americas, and perhaps inland to the grand canyon.  making it to australia and new zealand, and to trading partners in the indian ocean is believable.  envoys from most of these nations had reached beijing before the voyage, and may have piloted the armada.  all of this still falls far short of what is claimed. 
                      he perpetuates the exotic mystery of the orient.  the same thinking that led scholars to adopt the theory that east asians populated all of the americas after 12,000 bce.  the truth is that chinese culture before 2000 bce was non-existent or little developed.  most of the culture they had was imported from india, including rice and silk.  there is no evidence of a dense population in china before 2000 bce.  it would be more credible to believe the high culture of peru and mexico, with its ancient dense population, had populated east asia.  in fact, some of us believe that was indeed the case, with the mongolians migrating there from the americas. 
                     it would be interesting to learn when the mongolians migrated to asia.  the magyar are fast to deny any kinship to the mongolians.  the mongols are proud of the magyar, and consider them related.  it still puzzles me, for i believe they both originated in the americas, but their arrival in asia may have been in different eras and by other routes.  i would guess that the magyar arrived first, and may have began with nimrod circa 26,000 bce.  the mongols probably arrived across the behring straits after the collapse of the gobi empire, maybe 9000 bce. 
                     before 10,000 bce i believe the great nations of asia were centered in the gobi, and indo-china, tibet, and india.  all either colonies or greatly influenced by lemuria. 
                     it appears china reached the apex under foreigners with the shang and mongols, until modern times when it attained to be a world power on its own. 
                   
                  imho
                  mike
                   
                   

                  No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1729 - Release Date: 10/16/2008 7:12 PM

                • mike white
                  reading his proofs, he states the first european explorers used copies of chinese maps. then he makes a case that columbus had a map when he started west. he
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 17, 2008
                     
                       reading his proofs, he states the first european explorers used copies of chinese maps.  then he makes a case that columbus had a map when he started west.  he doesnt prove it was a copy of a chinese map.  i admit that he had a map, but there is no evidence that it was chinese.  ive never heard of an ancient map in europe that had chinese characters, or could be connected with china in any way.  he jumped to a conclusion, and expects the readers to accept it on his claim.  that is one example of the lack of substance behind his words. 
                     
                    mike
                     
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 11:01 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] 1421 : the year china discovered america by menzies

                     
                    hi brew, all
                     
                       the font is easier to read, not a problem.  thanks for the link.  i opened it up, and will scan thru it this weekend. 
                      ive also began another book online about a us task force sent in 1834 to establish fair trade with southeast asia, and to punish pirates.  i like sailing yarns. 
                     
                    mike
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 7:59 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] 1421 : the year china discovered america by menzies

                    I've begun re-reading 1421, Mike, but I found Gavin Menzies website where he offers an indexed guide to "Evidence". It is much more thorough than anything I could do justice to. Here is the page from his website...

                    http://www.gavinmen zies.net/ pages/evidence- 1421/index. asp

                    The links at the top will carry you back to his home page, and also the reference material on his later book, 1434.
                    After hearing him speak on C2C and reading the book, I am convinced that he is very, very close to the truth - but as you probably remember, I am also convinced that Sitchin is on the mark (I'm a sucker for unconventional material).

                    I really wish you would read the entire book...the maps, the genetic evidence, the flora and fauna, all combine to present a very good case (IMO)

                    (Please excuse my stealing your font type - I find it very easy to read)

                    Phil

                    ============ =


                    mike white wrote:

                     
                       btw, the jade bison is from the 'tang' dynasty, not the ming, a slip of the tongue. 
                       author was impressed with china, rightly so, but he went overboard.  most of his comparisons were between china and europe, that was still in the dark ages.  the arabs, india, mexico, and peru, may have been better choices. 
                       the great fleets had thousands of ships, and exploration and science were less important than the awe factor.  few of these ships returned to china.  even an insignificant enemy could have destroyed such fleets with a few fire ships.  the few that made it back alive may have convinced the chinese that there were other great powers to contend with.  this may be why they stopped their armadas and became isolationists within 150 years.  its hard to fathom why they would burn all of the documents associated with their exploration, particularly if science was as important as they say. 
                       it was a great feat to overthrow the mongols in such a short time.  luxury and ease, plus a few thousand concubines, weakened them.  its difficult to find many chinese today without some mongolian blood, so they made a huge impression on the gene pool. 
                       note that when the emperor upsets the mandarins that the doctors act.  the usual remedy for all such ills is mercury, sometimes with arsenic. 
                       i finished the 62 page preview, without finding anything that would lead me to believe that the chinese of 1421 ce could have produced accurate maps, navigated the southern hemisphere, explored the atlantic, or had established colonies in the americas. 
                       im not encouraged to buy the book, but welcome those who have read it to post their opinions, and reasons why we should accept the claims put forth by the author. 
                       its probable that they reached the western shores of the americas, and perhaps inland to the grand canyon.  making it to australia and new zealand, and to trading partners in the indian ocean is believable.  envoys from most of these nations had reached beijing before the voyage, and may have piloted the armada.  all of this still falls far short of what is claimed. 
                        he perpetuates the exotic mystery of the orient.  the same thinking that led scholars to adopt the theory that east asians populated all of the americas after 12,000 bce.  the truth is that chinese culture before 2000 bce was non-existent or little developed.  most of the culture they had was imported from india, including rice and silk.  there is no evidence of a dense population in china before 2000 bce.  it would be more credible to believe the high culture of peru and mexico, with its ancient dense population, had populated east asia.  in fact, some of us believe that was indeed the case, with the mongolians migrating there from the americas. 
                       it would be interesting to learn when the mongolians migrated to asia.  the magyar are fast to deny any kinship to the mongolians.  the mongols are proud of the magyar, and consider them related.  it still puzzles me, for i believe they both originated in the americas, but their arrival in asia may have been in different eras and by other routes.  i would guess that the magyar arrived first, and may have began with nimrod circa 26,000 bce.  the mongols probably arrived across the behring straits after the collapse of the gobi empire, maybe 9000 bce. 
                       before 10,000 bce i believe the great nations of asia were centered in the gobi, and indo-china, tibet, and india.  all either colonies or greatly influenced by lemuria. 
                       it appears china reached the apex under foreigners with the shang and mongols, until modern times when it attained to be a world power on its own. 
                     
                    imho
                    mike
                     
                     

                    No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1729 - Release Date: 10/16/2008 7:12 PM

                  • mike white
                    welcome to the new members. the educational system of china today is much improved from what is described in 1832, in fact better than we have in the west in
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 19, 2008
                       
                         welcome to the new members. 
                         the educational system of china today is much improved from what is described in 1832, in fact better than we have in the west in many ways. 
                         in some things it is lacking, particularly in history and geography.  my wife is an intelligent product of their system, and excels me in mathematics and chemistry.  she thinks the shang were native chinese.  i suppose china is more willing to adopt a great culture that contributed so much.  she stated only two dynasties were foreigners, the yuan and qing, or the mongols and tartar manchus. 
                         at xian i examined the teracotta warriors up close.  they were over 6 ft tall, robust, with full beard or mustache.  they do not resemble modern chinese.  i assume that they were foreigners. 
                         im no expert on it, but the huns, magyar, or scythians also ruled china, or its western provinces.  i think its their mummies that were found in the taklamakan desert.  they controlled the silk route.  maybe the were the han dynasty? 
                         having the ruling nobility of a different race was common in not only china, but many nations, including egypt, mexico, and peru.  natives of these places often do not know this, preferring to adopt and embrace as their own any great culture of their past.  as in egypt, they have the great stone murals depicting pharaohs of the red race, that they claim as native egyptians, and refuse to consider their error.  the mere thought of atlantean diffusion upsets them.   when the other race migrates permanently they are part of the nation, so their works can be adopted with pride, but its better to know the truth of the origin of the imported culture.
                         its interesting to read of canton of 1832, after having spent a few days there in 2004.  its now called guangzhou.  the former hongs of the western powers in part can still be seen.  it still has higher crime, and pushier beggars than other parts of mainland china.  it was the center where most revolutions began.  then, as now, bribery is rampant.  bridges to officialdom called guanxi, and gifts called hongbao, still open all doors. 
                       
                      mike
                       
                       
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.