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Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ancient utah

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  • mike white
    hi cj, all exactly my concern, i think salt water carved the grand canyon, and did not do it in one pass, leaving the great salt lake. there are coal
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 19, 2008
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      hi cj, all
       
         exactly my concern,  i think salt water carved the grand canyon, and did not do it in one pass, leaving the great salt lake.  there are coal deposits in colorado if i recall correctly, indicating that it spent some time on the seafloor.  there are indications that the southwest has had cyclic flooding by the sea, on and off for ages.  i dont think its over yet either.  cayce said in our times the southwest would be 'innundated' by earthquakes.  the word means flooded by water.
         ive been looking at this for over ten years, trying to determine the trigger, and the gate for the sea to enter the southwest.  it looks as though portions of arizona, nevada, and utah are involved, possibly via the sea of cortez.  texas and oklahoma also appear to have only recently become dry land again, after being on the seafloor a brief while, but it may be a different trigger.  there have been quakes at reno nevada.  large plates can go up and down like an elevator, moving large tracts vertically by a mile or two rapidly.  our rockies are much like the andes, with the southern ranges the newest.  so we could have the same factors that uplifted tiwanako 12,000 ft in a short time.  this might explain how the region could have been occupied by man for over 10 million years, but only show signs of a few cultures widely separated by time.  2/3 of the usa is highly unstable, and at risk of becoming seafloor rapidly. 
       
      imho
      mike
        
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: CJ Mason
      Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:25 PM
      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ancient utah

      Hey, I'm hanging on. What if the uplift goes back down. We live on a large shell slab that runs for about 20 miles, hoping to ride out the storm.

      If you look at the Durango area, you can see that a large amount of water flowed out to Farmington, Grand Canyon, and out to sea. Same thing with the San Lewis Valley. Water went somewhere fast!

      cj

      --- On Mon, 8/18/08, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

      > From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
      > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] ancient utah
      > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
      > Date: Monday, August 18, 2008, 12:10 AM
      > old-timers on the list may remember that i think that our
      > experts lump together several different peoples as the
      > fremont people. a very ancient culture existed on the
      > colorado plateau. they left a unique series of panels in
      > the four state area, with a prime example at horseshoe
      > canyon utah. judging by the leval of patina, they seem to
      > be the earliest drawings in the southwest. cayce told that
      > man first appeared there circa 10 mya. we dont have much to
      > go on, but they may be that early. later people drew
      > smaller figures over, and shared the same panels sometimes.
      > the wilcox ranch had some of the early figures, plus later
      > additions.
      > we may be correct that the so-called 'ghost'
      > drawings are among the oldest, long before the fremont
      > people. in fact, it may be true that the later pit-home
      > people, the dwarfs waldo found in mummies came before the
      > anasazi. they were probably followed by the fremont people.
      > the hopi were further south, the ute and navaho were late
      > arrivals. there is no proof that the later tribes had any
      > connection to those before them. although the hopi share
      > much with the anasazi, and could be related, but there is
      > cause to think the hopi could be lost tribes of israel.
      > they celebrate a spring ritual much like passover. i toured
      > the area in 1986.
      > the cliff dwellings of the anasazi, and the granaries of
      > the dwarfs of utah, suggest that those two groups were under
      > attack, and took extreme defence measures. they were both
      > probably killed off by the arrival of the navaho and utes.
      > the only two tribes that i feel may have came from asia are
      > the navaho and the zuni, with the navaho more numerous by
      > far. it seems more likely the earlier groups were killed
      > off by newcomers, than as a result of climate change.
      > indirectly, climate change may have reduced their numbers,
      > and the amount of food, but the scarcity led to violence
      > from others.
      > only a fool would suggest that people of 700-1000 ce had
      > made the earliest drawings, that have deep patina in the
      > grooves and etchings. instead of realizing that the later
      > drawings were more likely their work. these appear bright
      > and new, with little to no patina. by their dating, it
      > would appear that the fremont were contemporary with the
      > anasazi. the pit builders preceded both. from the relics i
      > saw of them, they were pre pottery, using baskets instead.
      > our lads are so sure they were fremont, that they probably
      > wont even take carbon dating. many of us would like to know
      > an accurate date for them. they have organic baskets and
      > bones, so the relics could be dated, and should be. i bet
      > they are 3000 bce or before.
      > some scientists contend that north america was
      > depopulated circa 10,000 bce. which makes little sense, if
      > the same mainstream believe our current tribes descend from
      > arrivals from asia circa 13,000 bce. besides mexico seems
      > to have had unbroken population from at least 50,000 bce
      > down to the present. the west and midwest may have suffered
      > several disasters, from meteor impact, ice-dam breaks,
      > innundations by the sea, tsunamis, etc, that could have have
      > depopulated large areas. prehistory remains almost blank,
      > that is why we try to reason out likely scenarios, to fill
      > in the gaps. our experts seem content with the status quo.
      >
      > i think the southern rockies uplifted quite recently.
      > this would have caused the southwest to become arid. i
      > believe this uplift and an inland sea occurred in the
      > southwest during the sojourn of cultured man. these two
      > events could have depopulated a large tract.
      >
      > mike

    • mike white
      the enrush and rapid draining of that big an area would explain not only the grand canyon, but the eroded rocks of utah, like in monument valley, the arches,
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 20, 2008
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           the enrush and rapid draining of that big an area would explain not only the grand canyon, but the eroded rocks of utah, like in monument valley, the arches, and the mesas of arizona.  the evidence is right before our eyes, yet our lads cling to the silly notion that the colorado river carved the grand canyon - without even attempting to explain the other formations.  it would appear that several hundred feet of surface has been stripped off the land and carried to the sea. 
           the colorado river is a new river, born when the southern rockies uplifted, and that wasnt mya as our lads guess-timate, more like no more than 12,000 years ago.  no way could that river be responsible for the grand canyon, and the other formations. 
           i think we are onto something very important here.  we have made a good case for earthquake related vertical plate movement having flooded the southwest cyclicly.  just as we did for the midwest.   isnt it odd that we can openly discuss subjects that should be of interest to several fields of experts - yet they never join us, and contribute pro or con.  it is not science, to be so sure of an opinion, that one doesnt even consider alternatives.  its terrible negligence on their part, to endanger millions of lives on their watch, by clinging to bad science, and ignoring the obvious.  of course they will never change their minds, or investigate other ideas, until the disaster occurs, then they can try to live with it.  at least that is the way i see it. 
         
        mike
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:59 PM
        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ancient utah

         
        hi cj, all
         
           exactly my concern,  i think salt water carved the grand canyon, and did not do it in one pass, leaving the great salt lake.  there are coal deposits in colorado if i recall correctly, indicating that it spent some time on the seafloor.  there are indications that the southwest has had cyclic flooding by the sea, on and off for ages.  i dont think its over yet either.  cayce said in our times the southwest would be 'innundated' by earthquakes.  the word means flooded by water.
           ive been looking at this for over ten years, trying to determine the trigger, and the gate for the sea to enter the southwest.  it looks as though portions of arizona, nevada, and utah are involved, possibly via the sea of cortez.  texas and oklahoma also appear to have only recently become dry land again, after being on the seafloor a brief while, but it may be a different trigger.  there have been quakes at reno nevada.  large plates can go up and down like an elevator, moving large tracts vertically by a mile or two rapidly.  our rockies are much like the andes, with the southern ranges the newest.  so we could have the same factors that uplifted tiwanako 12,000 ft in a short time.  this might explain how the region could have been occupied by man for over 10 million years, but only show signs of a few cultures widely separated by time.  2/3 of the usa is highly unstable, and at risk of becoming seafloor rapidly. 
         
        imho
        mike
          
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: CJ Mason
        Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:25 PM
        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] ancient utah

        Hey, I'm hanging on. What if the uplift goes back down. We live on a large shell slab that runs for about 20 miles, hoping to ride out the storm.

        If you look at the Durango area, you can see that a large amount of water flowed out to Farmington, Grand Canyon, and out to sea. Same thing with the San Lewis Valley. Water went somewhere fast!

        cj

        --- On Mon, 8/18/08, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

        > From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
        > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] ancient utah
        > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
        > Date: Monday, August 18, 2008, 12:10 AM
        > old-timers on the list may remember that i think that our
        > experts lump together several different peoples as the
        > fremont people. a very ancient culture existed on the
        > colorado plateau. they left a unique series of panels in
        > the four state area, with a prime example at horseshoe
        > canyon utah. judging by the leval of patina, they seem to
        > be the earliest drawings in the southwest. cayce told that
        > man first appeared there circa 10 mya. we dont have much to
        > go on, but they may be that early. later people drew
        > smaller figures over, and shared the same panels sometimes.
        > the wilcox ranch had some of the early figures, plus later
        > additions.
        > we may be correct that the so-called 'ghost'
        > drawings are among the oldest, long before the fremont
        > people. in fact, it may be true that the later pit-home
        > people, the dwarfs waldo found in mummies came before the
        > anasazi. they were probably followed by the fremont people.
        > the hopi were further south, the ute and navaho were late
        > arrivals. there is no proof that the later tribes had any
        > connection to those before them. although the hopi share
        > much with the anasazi, and could be related, but there is
        > cause to think the hopi could be lost tribes of israel.
        > they celebrate a spring ritual much like passover. i toured
        > the area in 1986.
        > the cliff dwellings of the anasazi, and the granaries of
        > the dwarfs of utah, suggest that those two groups were under
        > attack, and took extreme defence measures. they were both
        > probably killed off by the arrival of the navaho and utes.
        > the only two tribes that i feel may have came from asia are
        > the navaho and the zuni, with the navaho more numerous by
        > far. it seems more likely the earlier groups were killed
        > off by newcomers, than as a result of climate change.
        > indirectly, climate change may have reduced their numbers,
        > and the amount of food, but the scarcity led to violence
        > from others.
        > only a fool would suggest that people of 700-1000 ce had
        > made the earliest drawings, that have deep patina in the
        > grooves and etchings. instead of realizing that the later
        > drawings were more likely their work. these appear bright
        > and new, with little to no patina. by their dating, it
        > would appear that the fremont were contemporary with the
        > anasazi. the pit builders preceded both. from the relics i
        > saw of them, they were pre pottery, using baskets instead.
        > our lads are so sure they were fremont, that they probably
        > wont even take carbon dating. many of us would like to know
        > an accurate date for them. they have organic baskets and
        > bones, so the relics could be dated, and should be. i bet
        > they are 3000 bce or before.
        > some scientists contend that north america was
        > depopulated circa 10,000 bce. which makes little sense, if
        > the same mainstream believe our current tribes descend from
        > arrivals from asia circa 13,000 bce. besides mexico seems
        > to have had unbroken population from at least 50,000 bce
        > down to the present. the west and midwest may have suffered
        > several disasters, from meteor impact, ice-dam breaks,
        > innundations by the sea, tsunamis, etc, that could have have
        > depopulated large areas. prehistory remains almost blank,
        > that is why we try to reason out likely scenarios, to fill
        > in the gaps. our experts seem content with the status quo.
        >
        > i think the southern rockies uplifted quite recently.
        > this would have caused the southwest to become arid. i
        > believe this uplift and an inland sea occurred in the
        > southwest during the sojourn of cultured man. these two
        > events could have depopulated a large tract.
        >
        > mike

      • CJ Mason
        Boy! Did you ever hit the nail on the head. We were out on a geological field trip in the Durango, Colorado area and the professor was telling us about the
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 21, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Boy! Did you ever hit the nail on the head. We were out on a geological field trip in the Durango, Colorado area and the professor was telling us about the missing time in the layers. Well, duh! But of course no one is going to listen to me, I was an art major. But have a minor in archaeology. Every time I look around here you can see the evidence of the water going somewhere very fast. On Hwy 3 one can see the layers of shell and sandstone; beach and sea, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. They are doing some serious road work along Hwy 160 and are cutting away a hill side, yep there she was, a fault, hope to get a picture of it before they cover it with the mesh.

          I think the Grand Canyon is also part fault line. The same goes for the Animus River Valley that Durango sits in, they say the Animas River cut the valley, it's a fault line.

          Now comes the big question, why. Why the cover-ups, why the lies! The world is not flat, there was an advanced civilization on this planet before it was destroyed, and the Americas were a melting pot long before Columbus.

          cj


          --- On Wed, 8/20/08, mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:

          > From: mike white <infoplz@...>
          > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ancient utah
          > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008, 11:49 AM
          > the enrush and rapid draining of that big an area would
          > explain not only the grand canyon, but the eroded rocks of
          > utah, like in monument valley, the arches, and the mesas of
          > arizona. the evidence is right before our eyes, yet our
          > lads cling to the silly notion that the colorado river
          > carved the grand canyon - without even attempting to explain
          > the other formations. it would appear that several hundred
          > feet of surface has been stripped off the land and carried
          > to the sea.
          > the colorado river is a new river, born when the
          > southern rockies uplifted, and that wasnt mya as our lads
          > guess-timate, more like no more than 12,000 years ago. no
          > way could that river be responsible for the grand canyon,
          > and the other formations.
          > i think we are onto something very important here. we
          > have made a good case for earthquake related vertical plate
          > movement having flooded the southwest cyclicly. just as we
          > did for the midwest. isnt it odd that we can openly
          > discuss subjects that should be of interest to several
          > fields of experts - yet they never join us, and contribute
          > pro or con. it is not science, to be so sure of an opinion,
          > that one doesnt even consider alternatives. its terrible
          > negligence on their part, to endanger millions of lives on
          > their watch, by clinging to bad science, and ignoring the
          > obvious. of course they will never change their minds, or
          > investigate other ideas, until the disaster occurs, then
          > they can try to live with it. at least that is the way i
          > see it.
          >
          > mike
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: mike white
          > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:59 PM
          > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ancient utah
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > hi cj, all
          >
          > exactly my concern, i think salt water carved the
          > grand canyon, and did not do it in one pass, leaving the
          > great salt lake. there are coal deposits in colorado if i
          > recall correctly, indicating that it spent some time on the
          > seafloor. there are indications that the southwest has had
          > cyclic flooding by the sea, on and off for ages. i dont
          > think its over yet either. cayce said in our times the
          > southwest would be 'innundated' by earthquakes. the
          > word means flooded by water.
          > ive been looking at this for over ten years, trying to
          > determine the trigger, and the gate for the sea to enter the
          > southwest. it looks as though portions of arizona, nevada,
          > and utah are involved, possibly via the sea of cortez.
          > texas and oklahoma also appear to have only recently become
          > dry land again, after being on the seafloor a brief while,
          > but it may be a different trigger. there have been quakes
          > at reno nevada. large plates can go up and down like an
          > elevator, moving large tracts vertically by a mile or two
          > rapidly. our rockies are much like the andes, with the
          > southern ranges the newest. so we could have the same
          > factors that uplifted tiwanako 12,000 ft in a short time.
          > this might explain how the region could have been occupied
          > by man for over 10 million years, but only show signs of a
          > few cultures widely separated by time. 2/3 of the usa is
          > highly unstable, and at risk of becoming seafloor rapidly.
          >
          > imho
          > mike
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: CJ Mason
          > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:25 PM
          > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ancient utah
          >
          >
          > Hey, I'm hanging on. What if the uplift goes back
          > down. We live on a large shell slab that runs for about 20
          > miles, hoping to ride out the storm.
          >
          > If you look at the Durango area, you can see that a
          > large amount of water flowed out to Farmington, Grand
          > Canyon, and out to sea. Same thing with the San Lewis
          > Valley. Water went somewhere fast!
          >
          > cj
          >
          > --- On Mon, 8/18/08, mike white
          > <infoplz@...> wrote:
          >
          > > From: mike white <infoplz@...>
          > > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ancient utah
          > > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
          > > Date: Monday, August 18, 2008, 12:10 AM
          > > old-timers on the list may remember that i think
          > that our
          > > experts lump together several different peoples as
          > the
          > > fremont people. a very ancient culture existed on
          > the
          > > colorado plateau. they left a unique series of
          > panels in
          > > the four state area, with a prime example at
          > horseshoe
          > > canyon utah. judging by the leval of patina, they
          > seem to
          > > be the earliest drawings in the southwest. cayce
          > told that
          > > man first appeared there circa 10 mya. we dont
          > have much to
          > > go on, but they may be that early. later people
          > drew
          > > smaller figures over, and shared the same panels
          > sometimes.
          > > the wilcox ranch had some of the early figures,
          > plus later
          > > additions.
          > > we may be correct that the so-called
          > 'ghost'
          > > drawings are among the oldest, long before the
          > fremont
          > > people. in fact, it may be true that the later
          > pit-home
          > > people, the dwarfs waldo found in mummies came
          > before the
          > > anasazi. they were probably followed by the
          > fremont people.
          > > the hopi were further south, the ute and navaho
          > were late
          > > arrivals. there is no proof that the later tribes
          > had any
          > > connection to those before them. although the hopi
          > share
          > > much with the anasazi, and could be related, but
          > there is
          > > cause to think the hopi could be lost tribes of
          > israel.
          > > they celebrate a spring ritual much like passover.
          > i toured
          > > the area in 1986.
          > > the cliff dwellings of the anasazi, and the
          > granaries of
          > > the dwarfs of utah, suggest that those two groups
          > were under
          > > attack, and took extreme defence measures. they
          > were both
          > > probably killed off by the arrival of the navaho
          > and utes.
          > > the only two tribes that i feel may have came from
          > asia are
          > > the navaho and the zuni, with the navaho more
          > numerous by
          > > far. it seems more likely the earlier groups were
          > killed
          > > off by newcomers, than as a result of climate
          > change.
          > > indirectly, climate change may have reduced their
          > numbers,
          > > and the amount of food, but the scarcity led to
          > violence
          > > from others.
          > > only a fool would suggest that people of 700-1000
          > ce had
          > > made the earliest drawings, that have deep patina
          > in the
          > > grooves and etchings. instead of realizing that
          > the later
          > > drawings were more likely their work. these appear
          > bright
          > > and new, with little to no patina. by their
          > dating, it
          > > would appear that the fremont were contemporary
          > with the
          > > anasazi. the pit builders preceded both. from the
          > relics i
          > > saw of them, they were pre pottery, using baskets
          > instead.
          > > our lads are so sure they were fremont, that they
          > probably
          > > wont even take carbon dating. many of us would
          > like to know
          > > an accurate date for them. they have organic
          > baskets and
          > > bones, so the relics could be dated, and should
          > be. i bet
          > > they are 3000 bce or before.
          > > some scientists contend that north america was
          > > depopulated circa 10,000 bce. which makes little
          > sense, if
          > > the same mainstream believe our current tribes
          > descend from
          > > arrivals from asia circa 13,000 bce. besides
          > mexico seems
          > > to have had unbroken population from at least
          > 50,000 bce
          > > down to the present. the west and midwest may have
          > suffered
          > > several disasters, from meteor impact, ice-dam
          > breaks,
          > > innundations by the sea, tsunamis, etc, that could
          > have have
          > > depopulated large areas. prehistory remains almost
          > blank,
          > > that is why we try to reason out likely scenarios,
          > to fill
          > > in the gaps. our experts seem content with the
          > status quo.
          > >
          > > i think the southern rockies uplifted quite
          > recently.
          > > this would have caused the southwest to become
          > arid. i
          > > believe this uplift and an inland sea occurred in
          > the
          > > southwest during the sojourn of cultured man.
          > these two
          > > events could have depopulated a large tract.
          > >
          > > mike
        • mike white
          i think i saw the same formations near durango on my way to mesa verde. at the time, like most people, i was just taking in the awesome scenery, so different
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 21, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
             
               i think i saw the same formations near durango on my way to mesa verde.  at the time, like most people, i was just taking in the awesome scenery, so different from what we have in the midwest.  it was later in the mind's eye that i put two and two together.  its the high elevation, and desert that keeps people from realizing that flood waters created the features.  of course i dont have the training to posit a valid scientific explanation.  i just applied some common sense and a little intuition.  it requires looking at the big picture as well.  in most areas time adds to the soil depth, covering the past, and its relics.  in the southwest, its possible that hundreds of feet were washed away.  like a big eraser, all signs of former cultures were carried to the sea, or left in depressions.  we will leave it to the experts to figure out how it happened. 
               i dont think its a conspiracy, they just repeat what they are taught.  it does seem incredible that flood waters worked on a large scale in a high desert.  the mechanism that causes it needs to be found.  it appears to be triggered by earthquakes.  apparently a plate must suddenly drop by a mile or so.  we need to discover if a layer[s] of limestone formed.  if it didnt, then the submersion was brief.  i suspect thats the case, or we would have marine fossils to tell the tale.  its mindful of the andes, a fast drop below the sea, then a massive and rapid uplift.  that must have been horrifying to the people.  the sea rushed in, and then rushed off.  the force of huge waves, carrying rocks and debris, can carve the landscape.  anybody living there should relocate. 
             
            imho
            mike 
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: CJ Mason
            Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 7:24 AM
            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ancient utah

            Boy! Did you ever hit the nail on the head. We were out on a geological field trip in the Durango, Colorado area and the professor was telling us about the missing time in the layers. Well, duh! But of course no one is going to listen to me, I was an art major. But have a minor in archaeology. Every time I look around here you can see the evidence of the water going somewhere very fast. On Hwy 3 one can see the layers of shell and sandstone; beach and sea, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. They are doing some serious road work along Hwy 160 and are cutting away a hill side, yep there she was, a fault, hope to get a picture of it before they cover it with the mesh.

            I think the Grand Canyon is also part fault line. The same goes for the Animus River Valley that Durango sits in, they say the Animas River cut the valley, it's a fault line.

            Now comes the big question, why. Why the cover-ups, why the lies! The world is not flat, there was an advanced civilization on this planet before it was destroyed, and the Americas were a melting pot long before Columbus.

            cj

            --- On Wed, 8/20/08, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

            > From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
            > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] ancient utah
            > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
            > Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008, 11:49 AM
            > the enrush and rapid draining of that big an area would
            > explain not only the grand canyon, but the eroded rocks of
            > utah, like in monument valley, the arches, and the mesas of
            > arizona. the evidence is right before our eyes, yet our
            > lads cling to the silly notion that the colorado river
            > carved the grand canyon - without even attempting to explain
            > the other formations. it would appear that several hundred
            > feet of surface has been stripped off the land and carried
            > to the sea.
            > the colorado river is a new river, born when the
            > southern rockies uplifted, and that wasnt mya as our lads
            > guess-timate, more like no more than 12,000 years ago. no
            > way could that river be responsible for the grand canyon,
            > and the other formations.
            > i think we are onto something very important here. we
            > have made a good case for earthquake related vertical plate
            > movement having flooded the southwest cyclicly. just as we
            > did for the midwest. isnt it odd that we can openly
            > discuss subjects that should be of interest to several
            > fields of experts - yet they never join us, and contribute
            > pro or con. it is not science, to be so sure of an opinion,
            > that one doesnt even consider alternatives. its terrible
            > negligence on their part, to endanger millions of lives on
            > their watch, by clinging to bad science, and ignoring the
            > obvious. of course they will never change their minds, or
            > investigate other ideas, until the disaster occurs, then
            > they can try to live with it. at least that is the way i
            > see it.
            >
            > mike
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: mike white
            > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
            > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:59 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] ancient utah
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > hi cj, all
            >
            > exactly my concern, i think salt water carved the
            > grand canyon, and did not do it in one pass, leaving the
            > great salt lake. there are coal deposits in colorado if i
            > recall correctly, indicating that it spent some time on the
            > seafloor. there are indications that the southwest has had
            > cyclic flooding by the sea, on and off for ages. i dont
            > think its over yet either. cayce said in our times the
            > southwest would be 'innundated' by earthquakes. the
            > word means flooded by water.
            > ive been looking at this for over ten years, trying to
            > determine the trigger, and the gate for the sea to enter the
            > southwest. it looks as though portions of arizona, nevada,
            > and utah are involved, possibly via the sea of cortez.
            > texas and oklahoma also appear to have only recently become
            > dry land again, after being on the seafloor a brief while,
            > but it may be a different trigger. there have been quakes
            > at reno nevada. large plates can go up and down like an
            > elevator, moving large tracts vertically by a mile or two
            > rapidly. our rockies are much like the andes, with the
            > southern ranges the newest. so we could have the same
            > factors that uplifted tiwanako 12,000 ft in a short time.
            > this might explain how the region could have been occupied
            > by man for over 10 million years, but only show signs of a
            > few cultures widely separated by time. 2/3 of the usa is
            > highly unstable, and at risk of becoming seafloor rapidly.
            >
            > imho
            > mike
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: CJ Mason
            > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
            > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:25 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] ancient utah
            >
            >
            > Hey, I'm hanging on. What if the uplift goes back
            > down. We live on a large shell slab that runs for about 20
            > miles, hoping to ride out the storm.
            >
            > If you look at the Durango area, you can see that a
            > large amount of water flowed out to Farmington, Grand
            > Canyon, and out to sea. Same thing with the San Lewis
            > Valley. Water went somewhere fast!
            >
            > cj
            >
            > --- On Mon, 8/18/08, mike white
            > <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:
            >
            > > From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
            > > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] ancient utah
            > > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
            > > Date: Monday, August 18, 2008, 12:10 AM
            > > old-timers on the list may remember that i think
            > that our
            > > experts lump together several different peoples as
            > the
            > > fremont people. a very ancient culture existed on
            > the
            > > colorado plateau. they left a unique series of
            > panels in
            > > the four state area, with a prime example at
            > horseshoe
            > > canyon utah. judging by the leval of patina, they
            > seem to
            > > be the earliest drawings in the southwest. cayce
            > told that
            > > man first appeared there circa 10 mya. we dont
            > have much to
            > > go on, but they may be that early. later people
            > drew
            > > smaller figures over, and shared the same panels
            > sometimes.
            > > the wilcox ranch had some of the early figures,
            > plus later
            > > additions.
            > > we may be correct that the so-called
            > 'ghost'
            > > drawings are among the oldest, long before the
            > fremont
            > > people. in fact, it may be true that the later
            > pit-home
            > > people, the dwarfs waldo found in mummies came
            > before the
            > > anasazi. they were probably followed by the
            > fremont people.
            > > the hopi were further south, the ute and navaho
            > were late
            > > arrivals. there is no proof that the later tribes
            > had any
            > > connection to those before them. although the hopi
            > share
            > > much with the anasazi, and could be related, but
            > there is
            > > cause to think the hopi could be lost tribes of
            > israel.
            > > they celebrate a spring ritual much like passover.
            > i toured
            > > the area in 1986.
            > > the cliff dwellings of the anasazi, and the
            > granaries of
            > > the dwarfs of utah, suggest that those two groups
            > were under
            > > attack, and took extreme defence measures. they
            > were both
            > > probably killed off by the arrival of the navaho
            > and utes.
            > > the only two tribes that i feel may have came from
            > asia are
            > > the navaho and the zuni, with the navaho more
            > numerous by
            > > far. it seems more likely the earlier groups were
            > killed
            > > off by newcomers, than as a result of climate
            > change.
            > > indirectly, climate change may have reduced their
            > numbers,
            > > and the amount of food, but the scarcity led to
            > violence
            > > from others.
            > > only a fool would suggest that people of 700-1000
            > ce had
            > > made the earliest drawings, that have deep patina
            > in the
            > > grooves and etchings. instead of realizing that
            > the later
            > > drawings were more likely their work. these appear
            > bright
            > > and new, with little to no patina. by their
            > dating, it
            > > would appear that the fremont were contemporary
            > with the
            > > anasazi. the pit builders preceded both. from the
            > relics i
            > > saw of them, they were pre pottery, using baskets
            > instead.
            > > our lads are so sure they were fremont, that they
            > probably
            > > wont even take carbon dating. many of us would
            > like to know
            > > an accurate date for them. they have organic
            > baskets and
            > > bones, so the relics could be dated, and should
            > be. i bet
            > > they are 3000 bce or before.
            > > some scientists contend that north america was
            > > depopulated circa 10,000 bce. which makes little
            > sense, if
            > > the same mainstream believe our current tribes
            > descend from
            > > arrivals from asia circa 13,000 bce. besides
            > mexico seems
            > > to have had unbroken population from at least
            > 50,000 bce
            > > down to the present. the west and midwest may have
            > suffered
            > > several disasters, from meteor impact, ice-dam
            > breaks,
            > > innundations by the sea, tsunamis, etc, that could
            > have have
            > > depopulated large areas. prehistory remains almost
            > blank,
            > > that is why we try to reason out likely scenarios,
            > to fill
            > > in the gaps. our experts seem content with the
            > status quo.
            > >
            > > i think the southern rockies uplifted quite
            > recently.
            > > this would have caused the southwest to become
            > arid. i
            > > believe this uplift and an inland sea occurred in
            > the
            > > southwest during the sojourn of cultured man.
            > these two
            > > events could have depopulated a large tract.
            > >
            > > mike

          • jdaintira@aol.com
            In a message dated 8/21/2008 4:25:05 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, masonbennettcj@yahoo.com writes: Now comes the big question, why. Why the cover-ups, why
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 21, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              In a message dated 8/21/2008 4:25:05 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, masonbennettcj@... writes:
              Now comes the big question, why.  Why the cover-ups, why the lies! 
               
              Perhaps rhetorical, but it is THE question.
               
              Because several hundred years ago an English church leader worked out all the begats in the Old Testament and set up a time line for when God created The Heavens and the Earth, and any challenge to that was seen as a threat to religion.
               
              The early academics in these fields all accepted and used that timeline and built their theories and reputations on it, and those who have come since have written their papers and gotten their degrees and livelihoods based on the perpetuation.
               
              Why else would so many of them hold to the Bering Strait as the ONLY way the Americas were populated, despite all the pre Clovis evidence that makes that impossible?
               
              It is amazing how few people question things just because they have long been held as established "fact".
               
              ~Judith Marie




              It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.
            • mike white
              i didnt start out with the goal of challenging concensus opinion, it just turned out that way. in seeking confirmation for things cayce said, discrepancies in
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 21, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                 
                   i didnt start out with the goal of challenging concensus opinion, it just turned out that way.  in seeking confirmation for things cayce said, discrepancies in accepted notions kept presenting themselves.  one word is all cayce gave to lead me into this search - the word innundation.  ive lost my dictionary, so hope i spelled it right.  its truly amazing how much significance and importance one word can have. 
                   some of us realize the potential importance of what we have found regarding the ancient disasters that may have befell our midwest and our southwest, and the strong possibilty that they could happen again.  its unfortunate that this work may never be read and be given proper consideration by those in a position to carry this work forward.  chances are our warnings will go unheeded, and after the fact, when the floods and carnage have reoccurred, someone may look back or search the internet and find these words. 
                   i admit that the odds are against these ideas and theories being accurate.  many great academics and scholars are sure to balk and snicker.  i for one hope the others are correct, for if they are not, millions of lives are at stake, and this nation could be devastated in the blink of an eye. 
                   there are few places that would be safe, and no guarantees on them, if the world was in upheaval from great earthquakes that are said to precede a poleshift.  our lads dont even believe in poleshifts, and think that the period of great quakes has passed long ago in earth's infantcy, never to happen again.  therefore, no preparations will be made, and what will be will be.  even if research proved that such floods did happen, there would be so many who contend that they wont happen again, that no action would be taken.  im not sure what could be done, other than relocate millions of people.  even here in the smokies, at 2650 ft, the red clay deposits warn me that the great waves of the sea reached this high, not so long ago.  this is the safest place that ive found. 
                 
                mike
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 12:37 PM
                Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ancient utah

                In a message dated 8/21/2008 4:25:05 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, masonbennettcj@ yahoo.com writes:
                Now comes the big question, why.  Why the cover-ups, why the lies! 
                 
                Perhaps rhetorical, but it is THE question.
                 
                Because several hundred years ago an English church leader worked out all the begats in the Old Testament and set up a time line for when God created The Heavens and the Earth, and any challenge to that was seen as a threat to religion.
                 
                The early academics in these fields all accepted and used that timeline and built their theories and reputations on it, and those who have come since have written their papers and gotten their degrees and livelihoods based on the perpetuation.
                 
                Why else would so many of them hold to the Bering Strait as the ONLY way the Americas were populated, despite all the pre Clovis evidence that makes that impossible?
                 
                It is amazing how few people question things just because they have long been held as established "fact".
                 
                ~Judith Marie




                It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

              • mike white
                time is a funny thing. we tend to forget how young a nation we are. the usa was founded a mere 232 years ago. the colonists settled the northeast, and few
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 21, 2008
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                     time is a funny thing.  we tend to forget how young a nation we are.  the usa was founded a mere 232 years ago.  the colonists settled the northeast, and few had penetrated west of the appalachian chain before 1800.  almost nothing is known of the prehistory of america. 
                     familiarity breeds complacency.  even when prior events were known, after a few decades everybody tends to discount old stories.  it can be seen at naples, not more than 50 years after vesuvius erupted people began moving back, and settling near the volcano.  california had only a few residents before 1849, but within the last 160 years look how the population has grown.  enough time for several generations to be born, and feel comfortable and safe.  they pride themselves on how many quakes they have experienced, just as those in the southeast throw hurricane parties, making light of nature's fury.  there is nothing we can say to cause them to relocate, they actually resent it and are annoyed. 
                     this subject is important to our group, because it is a possible explanation for why so much of our territory was unoccupied for long periods of our prehistory.  the type of disasters that may have occurred could explain why so few relics of early man have been found.  what the sea didnt sweep away, was grinded down by glaciers.  oh where should we look for signs of them?  on the floor of the sea of cortez?  in the glacial terminus and morraines?  maybe.  oddly, cayce said that florida may have some of the earliest artifacts.  one might expect that the state, mostly a low-lying sandbar would be our newest land, yet he told of it being occupied by giants far back in time.  he said relics were left in hills and mounds in the northwest portion of florida near the alabama line.  megafauna survived there long after their extinction in other regions. 
                     mexico seemed to have survived thru these many disasters, even though much of its territory was lost to the sea.  they maintained a high culture for thousands of years, with brief set-backs.  our native tribes, imho, migrated north from south america.  no doubt coming into contact with mexicans in their trip north.  they probably heard of the disasters that happened in the northern parts of the continent, so even if the inland sea had withdrawn, they may have been reluctant to settle in those areas. 
                     bison are creatures of habit, their migration routes were probably thousands of years old.  it might be revealing if we could study those routes.  we may find that they avoided areas that had been covered by an inland sea, like our midwest.  im talking about the great herds, for i know that smaller groups in later times, maybe because of hunter pressure, did travel thru our midwest.  ive yet to find a satisfactory explanation of why the bison survived the megafauna extinction that killed off the rest of the large plain species. 
                  it may be that they had migrated to a safe location when the disaster happened.  the particulars of their migration route may tell us where the safe place was, and the season that the disaster struck. 
                   
                  mike
                   
                   
                • CJ Mason
                  We drove down to Albuquerque today and back, air port trip. The same story. There is a layer of very dark red, then light red, then clay, then sandstone. On
                  Message 8 of 19 , Aug 22, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    We drove down to Albuquerque today and back, air port trip. The same story. There is a layer of very dark red, then light red, then clay, then sandstone. On top there looks like ash in some places like White Mesa. Then one drops down into the Farmington area and you can see right where the water went. Off to the north there are all the mountains that up-lifted. Again I had to wonder, what kind of ride it will be if things drop again.

                    South of Farmington NM, there is a place called La Veta Mission. There are hundreds of shark teeth, coral, and all sorts of sea things. I have a shell that was found about five feet down. I was told by the college porfessor that it was brought into the area by some person at some point in time, that it wasn't in situ. Ha! The shell is suppose to be millions of years old by the books, but it looks almost new. Same goes for the shark teeth they find there.

                    cj

                    cj


                    --- On Thu, 8/21/08, mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:

                    > From: mike white <infoplz@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ancient utah
                    > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 3:11 PM
                    > time is a funny thing. we tend to forget how young a nation
                    > we are. the usa was founded a mere 232 years ago. the
                    > colonists settled the northeast, and few had penetrated west
                    > of the appalachian chain before 1800. almost nothing is
                    > known of the prehistory of america.
                    > familiarity breeds complacency. even when prior events
                    > were known, after a few decades everybody tends to discount
                    > old stories. it can be seen at naples, not more than 50
                    > years after vesuvius erupted people began moving back, and
                    > settling near the volcano. california had only a few
                    > residents before 1849, but within the last 160 years look
                    > how the population has grown. enough time for several
                    > generations to be born, and feel comfortable and safe. they
                    > pride themselves on how many quakes they have experienced,
                    > just as those in the southeast throw hurricane parties,
                    > making light of nature's fury. there is nothing we can
                    > say to cause them to relocate, they actually resent it and
                    > are annoyed.
                    > this subject is important to our group, because it is a
                    > possible explanation for why so much of our territory was
                    > unoccupied for long periods of our prehistory. the type of
                    > disasters that may have occurred could explain why so few
                    > relics of early man have been found. what the sea didnt
                    > sweep away, was grinded down by glaciers. oh where should
                    > we look for signs of them? on the floor of the sea of
                    > cortez? in the glacial terminus and morraines? maybe.
                    > oddly, cayce said that florida may have some of the earliest
                    > artifacts. one might expect that the state, mostly a
                    > low-lying sandbar would be our newest land, yet he told of
                    > it being occupied by giants far back in time. he said
                    > relics were left in hills and mounds in the northwest
                    > portion of florida near the alabama line. megafauna
                    > survived there long after their extinction in other regions.
                    >
                    > mexico seemed to have survived thru these many
                    > disasters, even though much of its territory was lost to the
                    > sea. they maintained a high culture for thousands of years,
                    > with brief set-backs. our native tribes, imho, migrated
                    > north from south america. no doubt coming into contact with
                    > mexicans in their trip north. they probably heard of the
                    > disasters that happened in the northern parts of the
                    > continent, so even if the inland sea had withdrawn, they may
                    > have been reluctant to settle in those areas.
                    > bison are creatures of habit, their migration routes
                    > were probably thousands of years old. it might be revealing
                    > if we could study those routes. we may find that they
                    > avoided areas that had been covered by an inland sea, like
                    > our midwest. im talking about the great herds, for i know
                    > that smaller groups in later times, maybe because of hunter
                    > pressure, did travel thru our midwest. ive yet to find a
                    > satisfactory explanation of why the bison survived the
                    > megafauna extinction that killed off the rest of the large
                    > plain species.
                    > it may be that they had migrated to a safe location when
                    > the disaster happened. the particulars of their migration
                    > route may tell us where the safe place was, and the season
                    > that the disaster struck.
                    >
                    > mike
                  • mike white
                    hi cj, all i stayed in farmington nm when i visited chaco canyon. i dont recall seeing any shells or shark teeth, but then, i wasnt looking for them, and did
                    Message 9 of 19 , Aug 23, 2008
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                      hi cj, all
                       
                         i stayed in farmington nm when i visited chaco canyon.  i dont recall seeing any shells or shark teeth, but then, i wasnt looking for them, and did no digging. 
                         i used google earth a little flying over the area from the great salt lake and southward.  nothing caught my eye to give us further clues.  maybe i should have swung over into nm, but i tried to stay west of the rockies.  not knowing exactly what range uplifted, or if the disaster was strictly vertical movement of a plate, limits the search.  of course the southern rockies may have moved with the plate that portions of az, nv, and utah sit upon.  for i think those lands had to have dropped for the sea to flood inward. 
                         so, you found marine deposits a mere 5 ft down in nw nm.  we can only make a relative estimate, but it sounds fairly recent geologically, not mya.  the lack of a layer of limestone, suggests only a brief submersion.  the red clay evenly distributed in the southwest sounds like a seafloor deposit, as if during its brief time on the bottom there were meteoric impacts.  in the southeast, we have a different scenario, the red clay is heaped up against mountain sides, as if carried by great waves.  i believe the sandstone often forms along the seashore. 
                       
                      mike
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: CJ Mason
                      Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 11:14 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] ancient utah

                      We drove down to Albuquerque today and back, air port trip. The same story. There is a layer of very dark red, then light red, then clay, then sandstone. On top there looks like ash in some places like White Mesa. Then one drops down into the Farmington area and you can see right where the water went. Off to the north there are all the mountains that up-lifted. Again I had to wonder, what kind of ride it will be if things drop again.

                      South of Farmington NM, there is a place called La Veta Mission. There are hundreds of shark teeth, coral, and all sorts of sea things. I have a shell that was found about five feet down. I was told by the college porfessor that it was brought into the area by some person at some point in time, that it wasn't in situ. Ha! The shell is suppose to be millions of years old by the books, but it looks almost new. Same goes for the shark teeth they find there.

                      cj

                      cj

                      --- On Thu, 8/21/08, mike white <infoplz@verizon. net> wrote:

                      > From: mike white <infoplz@verizon. net>
                      > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] ancient utah
                      > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Date: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 3:11 PM
                      > time is a funny thing. we tend to forget how young a nation
                      > we are. the usa was founded a mere 232 years ago. the
                      > colonists settled the northeast, and few had penetrated west
                      > of the appalachian chain before 1800. almost nothing is
                      > known of the prehistory of america.
                      > familiarity breeds complacency. even when prior events
                      > were known, after a few decades everybody tends to discount
                      > old stories. it can be seen at naples, not more than 50
                      > years after vesuvius erupted people began moving back, and
                      > settling near the volcano. california had only a few
                      > residents before 1849, but within the last 160 years look
                      > how the population has grown. enough time for several
                      > generations to be born, and feel comfortable and safe. they
                      > pride themselves on how many quakes they have experienced,
                      > just as those in the southeast throw hurricane parties,
                      > making light of nature's fury. there is nothing we can
                      > say to cause them to relocate, they actually resent it and
                      > are annoyed.
                      > this subject is important to our group, because it is a
                      > possible explanation for why so much of our territory was
                      > unoccupied for long periods of our prehistory. the type of
                      > disasters that may have occurred could explain why so few
                      > relics of early man have been found. what the sea didnt
                      > sweep away, was grinded down by glaciers. oh where should
                      > we look for signs of them? on the floor of the sea of
                      > cortez? in the glacial terminus and morraines? maybe.
                      > oddly, cayce said that florida may have some of the earliest
                      > artifacts. one might expect that the state, mostly a
                      > low-lying sandbar would be our newest land, yet he told of
                      > it being occupied by giants far back in time. he said
                      > relics were left in hills and mounds in the northwest
                      > portion of florida near the alabama line. megafauna
                      > survived there long after their extinction in other regions.
                      >
                      > mexico seemed to have survived thru these many
                      > disasters, even though much of its territory was lost to the
                      > sea. they maintained a high culture for thousands of years,
                      > with brief set-backs. our native tribes, imho, migrated
                      > north from south america. no doubt coming into contact with
                      > mexicans in their trip north. they probably heard of the
                      > disasters that happened in the northern parts of the
                      > continent, so even if the inland sea had withdrawn, they may
                      > have been reluctant to settle in those areas.
                      > bison are creatures of habit, their migration routes
                      > were probably thousands of years old. it might be revealing
                      > if we could study those routes. we may find that they
                      > avoided areas that had been covered by an inland sea, like
                      > our midwest. im talking about the great herds, for i know
                      > that smaller groups in later times, maybe because of hunter
                      > pressure, did travel thru our midwest. ive yet to find a
                      > satisfactory explanation of why the bison survived the
                      > megafauna extinction that killed off the rest of the large
                      > plain species.
                      > it may be that they had migrated to a safe location when
                      > the disaster happened. the particulars of their migration
                      > route may tell us where the safe place was, and the season
                      > that the disaster struck.
                      >
                      > mike

                    • justice family
                      Mike, I found a bit of info on the William Walker and his Death Valley discoveries. Try and google this book page 144 Secrets of the Lost Races By Rene
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                        Mike,
                         I found a bit of info on the William Walker and his Death Valley discoveries. Try and google this book page 144
                        Secrets of the Lost Races By Rene Noorbergen
                         
                        Jamye
                      • mike white
                        i think i have that book here somewhere. silly cover as i recall. thanks jamye mike ... From: justice family To: Ancient-Mysteries@yahoogroups.com Cc:
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                           
                             i think i have that book here somewhere.  silly cover as i recall. 
                          thanks jamye
                           
                          mike
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:34 PM
                          Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] re:ancient utah

                          Mike,
                           I found a bit of info on the William Walker and his Death Valley discoveries. Try and google this book page 144
                          Secrets of the Lost Races By Rene Noorbergen
                           
                          Jamye

                        • justice family
                          You are quite welcome, Mike. It is a new discovery for me and now I want the book. Thank you everyone for that new bit of info for my curious mind. Jamye ...
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            You are quite welcome, Mike.  It is a new discovery for me and now I want the book. Thank you everyone for that new bit of info for my curious mind.
                              Jamye
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 3:17 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] re:ancient utah

                             
                               i think i have that book here somewhere.  silly cover as i recall. 
                            thanks jamye
                             
                            mike
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:34 PM
                            Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] re:ancient utah

                            Mike,
                             I found a bit of info on the William Walker and his Death Valley discoveries. Try and google this book page 144
                            Secrets of the Lost Races By Rene Noorbergen
                             
                            Jamye

                          • mike white
                            hi jamye, all i had hunted this book years ago, and thought i ordered it. just searched my library and found secret of the lost race by andre norton, a big
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                              hi jamye, all
                               
                                 i had hunted this book years ago, and thought i ordered it.  just searched my library and found 'secret of the lost race' by andre norton, a big disapointment.  not sure if it was my mistake or the seller.  anyway, i ordered the right book just now.  i found new hc for $25, used pb for $13 at amazon.  then found a used hc at alibris for $15, so ordered it.  they may have another. 
                                 it should be a fun read and interesting, but not sure how verifiable its reports will be.  cayce did say that arizona is a prime site for searching for lost civilizations.  seems like all the old prospectors would have found something.
                                 it our current conjectures are correct about the region having undergone cyclic flooding by the sea, it would explain the difficulty in locating these old ruins.  any sign of them would be under the surface, or washed into gorges and covered.  unfortunately, any sites located in temperate climates have long been plundered and destroyed by generations that followed.  our only hope for finding archaic sites untouched are in inhospitable places, like deserts, seabed, under glaciers, and at extreme elevation.  its certain that there must be relics and ruins of man from hundreds of thousands of years ago.  our record of a few thousand years is pitiful, and sorely incomplete, leading otherwise intelligent people to make ridiculous conclusions. 
                                 im starting to think that yahoo has lost several of our posts.  did any receive my email with links to columbus and donnelly?  the darlington library has a most complete online texts of primary sources on the discovery of the americas. 
                               
                              mike
                               
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 4:54 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] re:ancient utah

                              You are quite welcome, Mike.  It is a new discovery for me and now I want the book. Thank you everyone for that new bit of info for my curious mind.
                                Jamye
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 3:17 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] re:ancient utah

                               
                                 i think i have that book here somewhere.  silly cover as i recall. 
                              thanks jamye
                               
                              mike
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:34 PM
                              Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] re:ancient utah

                              Mike,
                               I found a bit of info on the William Walker and his Death Valley discoveries. Try and google this book page 144
                              Secrets of the Lost Races By Rene Noorbergen
                               
                              Jamye

                            • justice family
                              Mike, Would you please resend the links on columgus and donnelly, I have read Ragnarak and own that I would like to see others of donnelly s espescially. Thank
                              Message 14 of 19 , Sep 3, 2008
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                                Mike, Would you please resend the links on columgus and donnelly, I have read Ragnarak and own that I would like to see others of donnelly's espescially.
                                 Thank you,
                                 Jamye

                              • CJ Mason
                                I just boxed up all my books, guess I ll have to get up in the attic a find this one, got it somewhere. Haven t looked much in AZ but as I have said before we
                                Message 15 of 19 , Sep 4, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I just boxed up all my books, guess I'll have to get up in the attic a find this one, got it somewhere.

                                  Haven't looked much in AZ but as I have said before we drive through NM quite a bit. When one Googles the areas, one will see the higher platues almost look like they were islands at one time. I fear that most atifacts lay out in the Baja.

                                  And if anyone did ever find anything, would the public ever be told?

                                  cj




                                  --- On Wed, 9/3/08, mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:

                                  > From: mike white <infoplz@...>
                                  > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] re:ancient utah
                                  > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 6:54 PM
                                  > hi jamye, all
                                  >
                                  > i had hunted this book years ago, and thought i ordered
                                  > it. just searched my library and found 'secret of the
                                  > lost race' by andre norton, a big disapointment. not
                                  > sure if it was my mistake or the seller. anyway, i ordered
                                  > the right book just now. i found new hc for $25, used pb
                                  > for $13 at amazon. then found a used hc at alibris for $15,
                                  > so ordered it. they may have another.
                                  > it should be a fun read and interesting, but not sure
                                  > how verifiable its reports will be. cayce did say that
                                  > arizona is a prime site for searching for lost
                                  > civilizations. seems like all the old prospectors would
                                  > have found something.
                                  > it our current conjectures are correct about the region
                                  > having undergone cyclic flooding by the sea, it would
                                  > explain the difficulty in locating these old ruins. any
                                  > sign of them would be under the surface, or washed into
                                  > gorges and covered. unfortunately, any sites located in
                                  > temperate climates have long been plundered and destroyed by
                                  > generations that followed. our only hope for finding
                                  > archaic sites untouched are in inhospitable places, like
                                  > deserts, seabed, under glaciers, and at extreme elevation.
                                  > its certain that there must be relics and ruins of man from
                                  > hundreds of thousands of years ago. our record of a few
                                  > thousand years is pitiful, and sorely incomplete, leading
                                  > otherwise intelligent people to make ridiculous conclusions.
                                  >
                                  > im starting to think that yahoo has lost several of our
                                  > posts. did any receive my email with links to columbus and
                                  > donnelly? the darlington library has a most complete online
                                  > texts of primary sources on the discovery of the americas.
                                  >
                                  > mike
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: justice family
                                  > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 4:54 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] re:ancient utah
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > You are quite welcome, Mike. It is a new discovery for
                                  > me and now I want the book. Thank you everyone for that new
                                  > bit of info for my curious mind.
                                  > Jamye
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: mike white
                                  > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 3:17 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] re:ancient
                                  > utah
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > i think i have that book here somewhere. silly
                                  > cover as i recall.
                                  > thanks jamye
                                  >
                                  > mike
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: justice family
                                  > To: Ancient-Mysteries@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Cc: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:34 PM
                                  > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] re:ancient utah
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Mike,
                                  > I found a bit of info on the William Walker and his
                                  > Death Valley discoveries. Try and google this book page 144
                                  > Secrets of the Lost Races By Rene Noorbergen
                                  >
                                  > Jamye
                                • dcampbell75479
                                  The subject of the vitrified cities between the Gila and San Juan Rivers in Arizona has intrigued me since I first heard it obliquely referenced on an old
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Sep 5, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    The subject of the vitrified cities between the Gila and San Juan
                                    Rivers in Arizona has intrigued me since I first heard it obliquely
                                    referenced on an old television program called "One Step Beyond",
                                    between 1959 to 1961. There was a mention of green glass which was
                                    only found around atomic explosions. Since then I've seen basically
                                    the same passage Noorbergen cites in his 1977 "The Secret Races of
                                    Man" repeated in various discussions of ancient anomalies, most
                                    recently being, David Hatcher Childress' article in Nexus Magazine and
                                    Brad Steiger's recapitulation. Naturally, I assumed that the William
                                    Walker who is credited with the initial discovery in 1850 in Death
                                    Valley was none other than the celebrated American freebooter and
                                    brief dictator of Nicaragua whose term of office ended in a hail of
                                    lead on a Honduran beach in 1860. Closer examination of Walker's
                                    career led me to reject that idea though. First, Noorbergen states the
                                    name as Col. IVES William Walker and describes him as an explorer.
                                    Nowhere have I found Walker's first name listed as Ives. Furthermore,
                                    despite a resume including doctor, lawyer, Presbyterian minister
                                    student, newspaper editor, duellist, mercenary, breakaway republic
                                    founder, filibuster, and national leader, explorer is notable in its
                                    absence from this list. In 1849, Walker was in San Francisco duelling
                                    and editing a newspaper. By 1852 he was liberating La Paz in Baja
                                    California and declaring it part of his short lived Republic of Sonora
                                    which was founded ostensibly to protect women and children on the
                                    Arizona border with Mexico from Apache raiders bent on looting the
                                    Restaurandora Mines in Sonora. This hardly offers a plausible window
                                    of opportunity involving an exploration of the exceeding hostile
                                    environs of the Gila and San Juan Rivers not to mention the
                                    inhospitable Death Valley and surrounding Mojave.
                                    Nor is William H.T.Walker, the bullet riddled veteran of the Mexican
                                    War and Major General of the Confederate Army who finally succumbed to
                                    a federal picket's shot at the Battle of Atlanta in 1864 a likely
                                    candidate for the discoverer of the anomalous edifices in the desert
                                    Southwest, though he too was born in the right timeframe and was of
                                    the right temperament to be wandering around in the wastelands at that
                                    time. So who, in fact, was Col. Ives William Walker, the explorer and
                                    discoverer of these elusive vitrified ruins? Does Noorbergen give a
                                    specific reference? I'm certain that I'm not the only one on this list
                                    who would like more in depth information on this. And also, do we have
                                    any listmembers now living in Arizona within driving range of the Gila
                                    or San Juan? Or access to a local university that might contain more
                                    useful clues?
                                    Now about the followup on the Gila/San Juan ruins, Snaketown, one of
                                    the most famous Arizona ruins is on the Gila and the area between
                                    there and the San Juan is rife with Basketmaker sites of which a great
                                    deal has been written and documented. I have a copy of Harold
                                    Gladwin's "A History of the Ancient Southwest" which goes into a great
                                    deal of detail concerning the early archaeology of that area in the
                                    1920's and 30's which greatly revised official notions of the
                                    populating of the ancient Southwest from at least the Early Archaic
                                    with some brief mention of the late Pleistocene presence of early man
                                    there. In particular I recall a formative group of early inhabitants
                                    called the Cochise Foragers, whose range extended from Baja California
                                    all the way through Northern Mexico to the edges of New Mexico and
                                    Colorado. I'll have to dig it out again and check for that area in
                                    particular. As I remember, the Gila is a very important area in the
                                    development of civilization in what Austin and Lujan call Aridamerica
                                    but I do not recall any mention of vitrified cities (and I was looking
                                    for such when I read it a few years back). Now the use of lava blocks
                                    in the foundations of pyramid-like ceremonial centers and the early
                                    use of ceramics are the only things that even remotely approach what
                                    Noorbergen has mentioned. In my opinion, neither Gladwin, nor E.A.
                                    Hooton and certainly not Julian Hayden would have failed to draw
                                    attention to such anomalous structures in their pioneering work in
                                    Arizona. I am also extremely doubtful that such extensive anomalies
                                    could have been successfully suppressed for 158 years given the number
                                    of rockhounds, treasure hunters, prospectors, naturalists, hunters and
                                    just plain curious geeks who have had access and motivation to comb
                                    the area for all these years. However, this might be the perfect
                                    opportunity for Mike White to utilize his new interest in remote
                                    satellite exploration to find some images that might shed some new
                                    light on this old enigma. A few weeks ago, an online acquaintence
                                    showed some satellite photos of a necropolis on the Giza plateau which
                                    had never been show before to his knowledge. A few weeks later, when I
                                    arrived in Egypt, he met me and took me to the spot at the base of the
                                    plateau he had shown in the satellite photo. I was astonished at how
                                    accurate that photo from space had been in comparison with the actual
                                    crypts I entered.

                                    --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, CJ Mason
                                    <masonbennettcj@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I just boxed up all my books, guess I'll have to get up in the attic
                                    a find this one, got it somewhere.
                                    >
                                    > Haven't looked much in AZ but as I have said before we drive through
                                    NM quite a bit. When one Googles the areas, one will see the higher
                                    platues almost look like they were islands at one time. I fear that
                                    most atifacts lay out in the Baja.
                                    >
                                    > And if anyone did ever find anything, would the public ever be told?
                                    >
                                    > cj
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > From: mike white <infoplz@...>
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] re:ancient utah
                                    > > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 6:54 PM
                                    > > hi jamye, all
                                    > >
                                    > > i had hunted this book years ago, and thought i ordered
                                    > > it. just searched my library and found 'secret of the
                                    > > lost race' by andre norton, a big disapointment. not
                                    > > sure if it was my mistake or the seller. anyway, i ordered
                                    > > the right book just now. i found new hc for $25, used pb
                                    > > for $13 at amazon. then found a used hc at alibris for $15,
                                    > > so ordered it. they may have another.
                                    > > it should be a fun read and interesting, but not sure
                                    > > how verifiable its reports will be. cayce did say that
                                    > > arizona is a prime site for searching for lost
                                    > > civilizations. seems like all the old prospectors would
                                    > > have found something.
                                    > > it our current conjectures are correct about the region
                                    > > having undergone cyclic flooding by the sea, it would
                                    > > explain the difficulty in locating these old ruins. any
                                    > > sign of them would be under the surface, or washed into
                                    > > gorges and covered. unfortunately, any sites located in
                                    > > temperate climates have long been plundered and destroyed by
                                    > > generations that followed. our only hope for finding
                                    > > archaic sites untouched are in inhospitable places, like
                                    > > deserts, seabed, under glaciers, and at extreme elevation.
                                    > > its certain that there must be relics and ruins of man from
                                    > > hundreds of thousands of years ago. our record of a few
                                    > > thousand years is pitiful, and sorely incomplete, leading
                                    > > otherwise intelligent people to make ridiculous conclusions.
                                    > >
                                    > > im starting to think that yahoo has lost several of our
                                    > > posts. did any receive my email with links to columbus and
                                    > > donnelly? the darlington library has a most complete online
                                    > > texts of primary sources on the discovery of the americas.
                                    > >
                                    > > mike
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: justice family
                                    > > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 4:54 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] re:ancient utah
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > You are quite welcome, Mike. It is a new discovery for
                                    > > me and now I want the book. Thank you everyone for that new
                                    > > bit of info for my curious mind.
                                    > > Jamye
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: mike white
                                    > > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 3:17 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] re:ancient
                                    > > utah
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > i think i have that book here somewhere. silly
                                    > > cover as i recall.
                                    > > thanks jamye
                                    > >
                                    > > mike
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: justice family
                                    > > To: Ancient-Mysteries@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Cc: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:34 PM
                                    > > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] re:ancient utah
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Mike,
                                    > > I found a bit of info on the William Walker and his
                                    > > Death Valley discoveries. Try and google this book page 144
                                    > > Secrets of the Lost Races By Rene Noorbergen
                                    > >
                                    > > Jamye
                                    >
                                  • mike white
                                    hi david, all very interesting stuff. david, feel free to tell the group details of your giza trip. i guess two series mentioned this study, one step beyond,
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Sep 5, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                       
                                      hi david, all
                                       
                                         very interesting stuff.  david, feel free to tell the group details of your giza trip.  i guess two series mentioned this study, one step beyond, and death valley days. 
                                         sand is turned to green glass by nuclear detonation, and by meteorite impact.  the libyan desert has areas of green glass from the impact circa 2200-2000 bce.  king tut had an object made of it in his tomb.  i have a ring with a moldavite stone, created from glass from an impact in moldavia in the balkins. 
                                         its fun to explore remote regions using google earth, and much easier than working in deserts and at high elevation.  some of their images permit real close study, while other sections are poor resolution.  it gives a relative idea of an area, but not real accurate for fine detail.  i measured the surface of a lake about 50 yards from my home, and the surface had various elevations, and not flat as it should be. 
                                         i also wasnt sure walker was the same guy as the mercenary figure.  the book has shipped, and if time permits i may review it online. 
                                         cayce made a few fascinating remarks about our southwest, and the prehistoric cultures there.  ive told of several, others can be found in my notes of the readings, 10mb +, at http://all-ez.com/cayce.htm  see og, the old name for the region.  
                                         many archaic cultures around the earth were so advanced that later kings were jealous of their accomplishments, and burned books and manuscripts, so posterity could only look to their empire for greatness.  one finds from the mystics reports of hi-tech airplanes, and stories of global travel in 50,000 bce, using gas-filled skins - maybe the flying dragons of myth.  it may account for them breathing fire.   
                                       
                                      mike
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 1:00 PM
                                      Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: re:ancient utah

                                      The subject of the vitrified cities between the Gila and San Juan
                                      Rivers in Arizona has intrigued me since I first heard it obliquely
                                      referenced on an old television program called "One Step Beyond",
                                      between 1959 to 1961. There was a mention of green glass which was
                                      only found around atomic explosions. Since then I've seen basically
                                      the same passage Noorbergen cites in his 1977 "The Secret Races of
                                      Man" repeated in various discussions of ancient anomalies, most
                                      recently being, David Hatcher Childress' article in Nexus Magazine and
                                      Brad Steiger's recapitulation. Naturally, I assumed that the William
                                      Walker who is credited with the initial discovery in 1850 in Death
                                      Valley was none other than the celebrated American freebooter and
                                      brief dictator of Nicaragua whose term of office ended in a hail of
                                      lead on a Honduran beach in 1860. Closer examination of Walker's
                                      career led me to reject that idea though. First, Noorbergen states the
                                      name as Col. IVES William Walker and describes him as an explorer.
                                      Nowhere have I found Walker's first name listed as Ives. Furthermore,
                                      despite a resume including doctor, lawyer, Presbyterian minister
                                      student, newspaper editor, duellist, mercenary, breakaway republic
                                      founder, filibuster, and national leader, explorer is notable in its
                                      absence from this list. In 1849, Walker was in San Francisco duelling
                                      and editing a newspaper. By 1852 he was liberating La Paz in Baja
                                      California and declaring it part of his short lived Republic of Sonora
                                      which was founded ostensibly to protect women and children on the
                                      Arizona border with Mexico from Apache raiders bent on looting the
                                      Restaurandora Mines in Sonora. This hardly offers a plausible window
                                      of opportunity involving an exploration of the exceeding hostile
                                      environs of the Gila and San Juan Rivers not to mention the
                                      inhospitable Death Valley and surrounding Mojave.
                                      Nor is William H.T.Walker, the bullet riddled veteran of the Mexican
                                      War and Major General of the Confederate Army who finally succumbed to
                                      a federal picket's shot at the Battle of Atlanta in 1864 a likely
                                      candidate for the discoverer of the anomalous edifices in the desert
                                      Southwest, though he too was born in the right timeframe and was of
                                      the right temperament to be wandering around in the wastelands at that
                                      time. So who, in fact, was Col. Ives William Walker, the explorer and
                                      discoverer of these elusive vitrified ruins? Does Noorbergen give a
                                      specific reference? I'm certain that I'm not the only one on this list
                                      who would like more in depth information on this. And also, do we have
                                      any listmembers now living in Arizona within driving range of the Gila
                                      or San Juan? Or access to a local university that might contain more
                                      useful clues?
                                      Now about the followup on the Gila/San Juan ruins, Snaketown, one of
                                      the most famous Arizona ruins is on the Gila and the area between
                                      there and the San Juan is rife with Basketmaker sites of which a great
                                      deal has been written and documented. I have a copy of Harold
                                      Gladwin's "A History of the Ancient Southwest" which goes into a great
                                      deal of detail concerning the early archaeology of that area in the
                                      1920's and 30's which greatly revised official notions of the
                                      populating of the ancient Southwest from at least the Early Archaic
                                      with some brief mention of the late Pleistocene presence of early man
                                      there. In particular I recall a formative group of early inhabitants
                                      called the Cochise Foragers, whose range extended from Baja California
                                      all the way through Northern Mexico to the edges of New Mexico and
                                      Colorado. I'll have to dig it out again and check for that area in
                                      particular. As I remember, the Gila is a very important area in the
                                      development of civilization in what Austin and Lujan call Aridamerica
                                      but I do not recall any mention of vitrified cities (and I was looking
                                      for such when I read it a few years back). Now the use of lava blocks
                                      in the foundations of pyramid-like ceremonial centers and the early
                                      use of ceramics are the only things that even remotely approach what
                                      Noorbergen has mentioned. In my opinion, neither Gladwin, nor E.A.
                                      Hooton and certainly not Julian Hayden would have failed to draw
                                      attention to such anomalous structures in their pioneering work in
                                      Arizona. I am also extremely doubtful that such extensive anomalies
                                      could have been successfully suppressed for 158 years given the number
                                      of rockhounds, treasure hunters, prospectors, naturalists, hunters and
                                      just plain curious geeks who have had access and motivation to comb
                                      the area for all these years. However, this might be the perfect
                                      opportunity for Mike White to utilize his new interest in remote
                                      satellite exploration to find some images that might shed some new
                                      light on this old enigma. A few weeks ago, an online acquaintence
                                      showed some satellite photos of a necropolis on the Giza plateau which
                                      had never been show before to his knowledge. A few weeks later, when I
                                      arrived in Egypt, he met me and took me to the spot at the base of the
                                      plateau he had shown in the satellite photo. I was astonished at how
                                      accurate that photo from space had been in comparison with the actual
                                      crypts I entered.

                                      --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, CJ Mason
                                      <masonbennettcj@ ...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I just boxed up all my books, guess I'll have to get up in the attic
                                      a find this one, got it somewhere.
                                      >
                                      > Haven't looked much in AZ but as I have said before we drive through
                                      NM quite a bit. When one Googles the areas, one will see the higher
                                      platues almost look like they were islands at one time. I fear that
                                      most atifacts lay out in the Baja.
                                      >
                                      > And if anyone did ever find anything, would the public ever be told?
                                      >
                                      > cj
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, mike white <infoplz@... > wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > From: mike white <infoplz@... >
                                      > > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] re:ancient utah
                                      > > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 6:54 PM
                                      > > hi jamye, all
                                      > >
                                      > > i had hunted this book years ago, and thought i ordered
                                      > > it. just searched my library and found 'secret of the
                                      > > lost race' by andre norton, a big disapointment. not
                                      > > sure if it was my mistake or the seller. anyway, i ordered
                                      > > the right book just now. i found new hc for $25, used pb
                                      > > for $13 at amazon. then found a used hc at alibris for $15,
                                      > > so ordered it. they may have another.
                                      > > it should be a fun read and interesting, but not sure
                                      > > how verifiable its reports will be. cayce did say that
                                      > > arizona is a prime site for searching for lost
                                      > > civilizations. seems like all the old prospectors would
                                      > > have found something.
                                      > > it our current conjectures are correct about the region
                                      > > having undergone cyclic flooding by the sea, it would
                                      > > explain the difficulty in locating these old ruins. any
                                      > > sign of them would be under the surface, or washed into
                                      > > gorges and covered. unfortunately, any sites located in
                                      > > temperate climates have long been plundered and destroyed by
                                      > > generations that followed. our only hope for finding
                                      > > archaic sites untouched are in inhospitable places, like
                                      > > deserts, seabed, under glaciers, and at extreme elevation.
                                      > > its certain that there must be relics and ruins of man from
                                      > > hundreds of thousands of years ago. our record of a few
                                      > > thousand years is pitiful, and sorely incomplete, leading
                                      > > otherwise intelligent people to make ridiculous conclusions.
                                      > >
                                      > > im starting to think that yahoo has lost several of our
                                      > > posts. did any receive my email with links to columbus and
                                      > > donnelly? the darlington library has a most complete online
                                      > > texts of primary sources on the discovery of the americas.
                                      > >
                                      > > mike
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: justice family
                                      > > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 4:54 PM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] re:ancient utah
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > You are quite welcome, Mike. It is a new discovery for
                                      > > me and now I want the book. Thank you everyone for that new
                                      > > bit of info for my curious mind.
                                      > > Jamye
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: mike white
                                      > > To: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 3:17 PM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] re:ancient
                                      > > utah
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > i think i have that book here somewhere. silly
                                      > > cover as i recall.
                                      > > thanks jamye
                                      > >
                                      > > mike
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: justice family
                                      > > To: Ancient-Mysteries@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Cc: Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:34 PM
                                      > > Subject: [Precolumbian_ Inscriptions] re:ancient utah
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Mike,
                                      > > I found a bit of info on the William Walker and his
                                      > > Death Valley discoveries. Try and google this book page 144
                                      > > Secrets of the Lost Races By Rene Noorbergen
                                      > >
                                      > > Jamye
                                      >

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