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Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: James Churchward and "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold"

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  • Gangchen Gonpo
    Thank you for your kind words and comments. I did receive a response from Acharya S (and one of her supporters appears to have posted a comment on the blog.) I
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 1, 2007
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      Thank you for your kind words and comments.

      I did receive a response from Acharya S (and one of
      her supporters appears to have posted a comment on the
      blog.) I had hoped to just state the facts and be done
      with it.
      Here is what Acharya S had to say:
      Dear Sir:

      Per copyright laws, one is allowed to utilize 500
      words per quote and 1,000 words per the entire work,
      if still under copyright. I utilized James
      Churchward's words well within that amount. Only one
      of those quotes has to do with Christianity. My book
      is not about James Churchward or his beliefs, nor did
      I ever insinuate that he subscribed to any of the
      theories reproduced in my work.

      Cheers.
      *******************
      Since she does not even dispute what I wrote and she
      doesn't shy away from the fact that her 'references'
      do not mean anything, how can she expect to sell/write
      more books?

      I had corresponded with another gentleman that was
      also looking for the Niven materials, however, he had
      also reached a dead-end.
      I had found a reference to a book that provided
      sketches of Niven's tablets "Copies of stone tablets
      found by William Niven at Santiago Ahuizoctla, near
      Mexico City"
      If the originals can't be found, maybe a copy of this
      book can be made available (if it can be found.)

      Thank you again for your kind words and patience in
      downloading the podcasts.

      Jack Churchward
      Clearwater, Florida

      --- dcampbell75479 <fred-dobbs@...> wrote:

      > It was good to see you post here again, Jack. Due to
      > being on dialup,
      > it took me most of the morning to download the
      > Acharya S rebuttal and
      > a couple of other podcasts you'd put up on your site
      > since I last
      > visited. I would agree that Acharya's argument is
      > very much at odds
      > with your grandfather's beliefs and intentions and I
      > can understand
      > your reaction to the use of writings to support that
      > argument.
      >
      > It was gratifying to read your article on the
      > Cascajal inscriptions
      > and I am very much in agreement with your
      > conclusions as they are the
      > same as the ones at which I arrived when I made the
      > same comparison.
      > Though William Niven stated that the stone he found
      > had become
      > unreadable years after he found it due to
      > weathering, I was hoping
      > that there would be some connection to it in the
      > Cascajal discovery
      > which would possibly shed some further light on the
      > numerous tablets
      > Niven found at Atzcapotzalco. I am still very
      > intrigued with the
      > multilayered city Niven found but I've been unable
      > to find any
      > reexamination of the site that has been done since
      > his discovery. Fred
      > Legner posted some photos of the Xochipala figurines
      > here, some of
      > which are almost certainly the same ones pictured in
      > Buried Cities,
      > Forgotten Gods. However, when I made inquiries to
      > the Texas
      > Archeological Society, I found nothing new, though
      > one of the Texas
      > archaeologists seemed familiar with the Xochipala
      > ceramics. He was on
      > the other hand totally unfamiliar with Niven, which
      > I thought odd
      > since Niven is featured in a favorable light in an
      > entry in The
      > Handbook of Texas online. I made further inquiries
      > with the archivist
      > at the Texas Archeological Research Lab who was able
      > to locate a
      > receipt for "Mexican artifacts, William P. Niven"
      > but nothing more.
      > The artifacts were at a natural history museum in
      > Austin but were
      > deaccessioned when the museum decided to concentrate
      > on natural
      > specimens exclusively. The archivist hoped that some
      > of Niven's
      > artifacts might wind up under the conservancy of
      > TARL but I have not
      > heard anything since then which was over a year ago.
      > I am hopeful that
      > someone in Houston or Austin will come forward with
      > some more of the
      > tablets which are said to be in private collections
      > there. Perhaps
      > with luck one of them will contact you. You might
      > consider putting up
      > a notice to that effect on your website similar to
      > the one you did for
      > the Uighur Empire. It's possible that Niven and
      > Churchward greatly
      > overestimated the antiquity of the tablets, given
      > that Mesoamerican
      > archaeology was still in its infancy in the early
      > part of the 20th
      > century, but the dates on early Mexican
      > civilizations are constantly
      > being revised backward just as Caral in Peru pushed
      > back dates there
      > to align with early dynastic times in Egypt. I
      > commend you on the
      > progress you are making and thanks for sharing with
      > us.
      >
      > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com,
      > Gangchen Gonpo
      > <ganggon@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > James Churchward and "The Christ Conspiracy: The
      > > Greatest Story Ever Sold"
      > >
      > > In researching my great-grandfather James
      > Churchward,
      snippo


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    • Pam Giese
      Well, Acharya S does know her copyright laws. I heard her speak at an Adventures Unlimited Conference a few years ago shortly after the publication of The
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 2, 2007
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        Well, Acharya S does know her copyright laws.  I heard her speak at an Adventures Unlimited Conference a few years ago shortly after the publication of "The Christ Conspiracy".    At the end of the talk she was asked about her next project and she unashamedly stated that all of Kersey Graves material was out of copyright and there was more than enough of his material to fill another book.  I suppose that one could make an argument that reworking 19th century material is keeping the authors ideas alive, but to describe such re-work as scholarly is giving it too much credit. 
         
        Pam
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 3:32 PM
        Subject: Re: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: James Churchward and "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold"

        Thank you for your kind words and comments.

        I did receive a response from Acharya S (and one of
        her supporters appears to have posted a comment on the
        blog.) I had hoped to just state the facts and be done
        with it.
        Here is what Acharya S had to say:
        Dear Sir:

        Per copyright laws, one is allowed to utilize 500
        words per quote and 1,000 words per the entire work,
        if still under copyright. I utilized James
        Churchward's words well within that amount. Only one
        of those quotes has to do with Christianity. My book
        is not about James Churchward or his beliefs, nor did
        I ever insinuate that he subscribed to any of the
        theories reproduced in my work.

        Cheers.
        ************ *******
        Since she does not even dispute what I wrote and she
        doesn't shy away from the fact that her 'references'
        do not mean anything, how can she expect to sell/write
        more books?

        I had corresponded with another gentleman that was
        also looking for the Niven materials, however, he had
        also reached a dead-end.
        I had found a reference to a book that provided
        sketches of Niven's tablets "Copies of stone tablets
        found by William Niven at Santiago Ahuizoctla, near
        Mexico City"
        If the originals can't be found, maybe a copy of this
        book can be made available (if it can be found.)

        Thank you again for your kind words and patience in
        downloading the podcasts.

        Jack Churchward
        Clearwater, Florida

        --- dcampbell75479 <fred-dobbs@usa. net> wrote:

        > It was good to see you post here again, Jack. Due to
        > being on dialup,
        > it took me most of the morning to download the
        > Acharya S rebuttal and
        > a couple of other podcasts you'd put up on your site
        > since I last
        > visited. I would agree that Acharya's argument is
        > very much at odds
        > with your grandfather' s beliefs and intentions and I
        > can understand
        > your reaction to the use of writings to support that
        > argument.
        >
        > It was gratifying to read your article on the
        > Cascajal inscriptions
        > and I am very much in agreement with your
        > conclusions as they are the
        > same as the ones at which I arrived when I made the
        > same comparison.
        > Though William Niven stated that the stone he found
        > had become
        > unreadable years after he found it due to
        > weathering, I was hoping
        > that there would be some connection to it in the
        > Cascajal discovery
        > which would possibly shed some further light on the
        > numerous tablets
        > Niven found at Atzcapotzalco. I am still very
        > intrigued with the
        > multilayered city Niven found but I've been unable
        > to find any
        > reexamination of the site that has been done since
        > his discovery. Fred
        > Legner posted some photos of the Xochipala figurines
        > here, some of
        > which are almost certainly the same ones pictured in
        > Buried Cities,
        > Forgotten Gods. However, when I made inquiries to
        > the Texas
        > Archeological Society, I found nothing new, though
        > one of the Texas
        > archaeologists seemed familiar with the Xochipala
        > ceramics. He was on
        > the other hand totally unfamiliar with Niven, which
        > I thought odd
        > since Niven is featured in a favorable light in an
        > entry in The
        > Handbook of Texas online. I made further inquiries
        > with the archivist
        > at the Texas Archeological Research Lab who was able
        > to locate a
        > receipt for "Mexican artifacts, William P. Niven"
        > but nothing more.
        > The artifacts were at a natural history museum in
        > Austin but were
        > deaccessioned when the museum decided to concentrate
        > on natural
        > specimens exclusively. The archivist hoped that some
        > of Niven's
        > artifacts might wind up under the conservancy of
        > TARL but I have not
        > heard anything since then which was over a year ago.
        > I am hopeful that
        > someone in Houston or Austin will come forward with
        > some more of the
        > tablets which are said to be in private collections
        > there. Perhaps
        > with luck one of them will contact you. You might
        > consider putting up
        > a notice to that effect on your website similar to
        > the one you did for
        > the Uighur Empire. It's possible that Niven and
        > Churchward greatly
        > overestimated the antiquity of the tablets, given
        > that Mesoamerican
        > archaeology was still in its infancy in the early
        > part of the 20th
        > century, but the dates on early Mexican
        > civilizations are constantly
        > being revised backward just as Caral in Peru pushed
        > back dates there
        > to align with early dynastic times in Egypt. I
        > commend you on the
        > progress you are making and thanks for sharing with
        > us.
        >
        > --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com,
        > Gangchen Gonpo
        > <ganggon@... > wrote:
        > >
        > > James Churchward and "The Christ Conspiracy: The
        > > Greatest Story Ever Sold"
        > >
        > > In researching my great-grandfather James
        > Churchward,
        snippo

        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
        Get easy, one-click access to your favorites.
        Make Yahoo! your homepage.
        http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs

      • bigalemc2
        Okay. I listened to the polite diatribe by Churchward s progeny, and his arguments are all wrong-headed. Like Pam Giese, I have heard Acharya S. at the
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 2, 2007
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          Okay.  I listened to the polite diatribe by Churchward's progeny, and his arguments are all wrong-headed.

          Like Pam Giese, I have heard Acharya S. at the Adventures Unlimited Conferences.  I don't know how much Pam knew about the subject before listening to Acharya, but I was quite well versed in a sizable portion of Acharya's arguments and the time periods she talked about, both in her book and in her presentation.  Since I was a young boy one of my great interests was the Dead Sea Scrolls.  And later on I made myself into a sort of biblical scholar sans degrees and church.  I came to the same conclusions as Acharya, but I have to tell you that her scholarship blew me away.  But we really got deep into it (from my POV, anyway), and she both knows her stuff and she is right. 

          After first hearing Acharya, I cornered her and we talked about 45 minutes on the time period and the intrigues of the period from the Maccabeans to the Council of Nicea, on Eisnemann and James the Just and Saul/Paul/The Liar, on Masada and Qumran.

          Trust me folks, Acharya is correct in her conclusions.  I was heavy into this subject myself, because I have for a very long time really wanted to know what happened back then, and what was the connection between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the early Christian community.  I had the very strong impression that the Dead Sea Scrolls community and the early Christian community were one and the same.  I thought if they were, then a lot for questions could be cleared up.  I didn't know where everything would end up, but whatever it was, I wanted to know about it.

          For a very long time, I accepted/assumed that Jesus' "corporal existence," as Jack Churchward referred to it, was a fact, but along the way I found out much that argued otherwise.  About the time Acharya's book came out, I had come to the same conclusion as she did.  Jesus never existed.  He was The Man Who Never Was, as one book about him is titled.  Most people are not aware of this, but there is not ONE SINGLE reliable document ANYWHERE that can prove he existed.  For pretty much everyone else of the period there is SOME documentation, but not the guy named Jesus.  And the idea that this was a period of low civlization without written accounts, well that is just simply not the case.  The Romans documented profusely, and the peoples of the Mediterranean basin left vast amounts of documentation.  And Judea and Galilee and Samaria were no exceptions.  If Jesus existed and had anything like the influence at the time asserted in the New Testament, MANY documents would exist - but they don't.

          If you don't count Schliemann and his discovery of Troy (which in recent years has some into question), archeology had its start when some rich, religious sorts decided to go hither into the Levant to prove the literal truth of the Bible.  For the most part, they found that most of the Bible didn't hold water.  Almost ALL Biblical scholarship has been undertaken by people sold on the truth of the Bible, yet a very high percentage of the Bible has been shown to be fallacious.  Yet - and it is an amazing thing - these same people maintain their beliefs, in spite of their own findings.  And what is more, when they came back home, they couldn't bring themselves to tell their fellow parishioners what they had found!  So, even though some of the real truth has been known in archeological circles for a very long time, the people in the pews have not been told.  Generations now have been told things that have been long since proven to be WRONG and in some cases lies, as the Christian world continues to mislead waves of children into the same cult worship.  In other words, Biblical scholarship itself is part of the Christ conspiracy, because of their unwillingness to wake up their fellow Christians to the inaccuracies and fabrications.  It is maybe the most shameful episode in Western history, but few are aware of it.

          As to Jack Churchward and his arguments, he argues that for Acharya to quote Col. Churchward, she has to include Churchward's belief system in her presentation.  Hogwash.  All researchers take research of others and re-work the arguments and facts to suit their own conclusions.  The younger Churchward accuses Acharya of perpetrating "outrageous abuse" for leaving out other things that Churchward wrote or believed.  It is not her place to present the Colonel in his entirety to her audience.

          And, to boot, her quoting of him in no way takes the Colonel out of context.  He DID say that the Osiris and Jesus stories were "wonderfully alike'," and that "many passages are identically the same, word for word."  That they both observed this and came to different conclusions is neither here nor there.  That is like saying that, because Einstein came up with a conclusion that overwrote Newtonian physics, that he could not quote or use any of Newton's work in making his case.  That is an absurd argument in the case of Einstein and Newton, and it is equally ridiculous in regards to Acharya and Churchward.

          Jack Churchward comes off as a country bumpkin living in a fantasy world where no author may quote another without presenting the original writer's belief system in toto.  Balderdash.

          Acharya's scholarship is actually amazing.  Jack C. mentions that she has "1130 notes," of which only 30 are attributed to the Colonel.  The important number there is not that she quoted him 30 times, but that her scholarship included 1100 other ones.  Leaving Churchward out would not have hurt her one iota.

          Also, young Churchward also asserts that Acharya "chose to select passages where James' credibility and prestige could sway the reader, that James' theory did not weigh heavily enough to be included elsewhere is of no concern."  Ha ha ha!  What a joke.  I assure you that including Colonel Churchward's works in her book could have nothing but a deleterious effect on her reputation.  Churchward's "credibility" (I say this in spite of the fact that I think he made some very, very good points) on a scale of 1 to 100 is about a 06.4.  NO one in the academic world gives Churchward's work anything but disdain.  If anything, including quotes from Churchward in her book ADDED to the reputation of the Colonel.

          Nuff sed.

          . . . . Steve

          P.S.  About Qumran and the Dead Sea Scrolls:  My take on it is that Qumran was a military outpost, one of the last to fall in what Josephus called The Jewish War.  The reason that the scrolls were found roght outside Qumran is because they had originally been in the Temple in Jerusalem, and when the Romans swept through Jerusalem the Rabiis spirited them out in an attempt to keep them safe.  In the process, they at some point made it to Qumran and the caves there.  When the fortress of Qumran was overrun, everyone who knew the scrolls were in the caves was killed, so their presence there was lost to history - until 1947.  This theory comes from Jonathan Golb of the University of Chicago, and I ascribe to it as the only theory that fits every fact I know.  It explains why there was such a wide perspective in the writings themselves, why the writings sound so erudite and modern (amazingly so) - not like an isolated community would have, and it explains why the Copper Scroll, with its listings of caches of gold and silver and other valuables were hidden, was there with the others (it certainly does not refer to any locations in Qumran, though many have tried to tie it to Qumran).  As a last kicker, all the assertions that the Qumranians were ascetic Essenes and librarians is simply untrue.
        • mike white
          hi steve, all you make some good points. its a shame that you felt it necessary to violate group rules by trashing many of our religious faith, and resort to
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 3, 2007
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            hi steve, all
             
               you make some good points.  its a shame that you felt it necessary to violate group rules by trashing many of our religious faith, and resort to name calling.  many of us can be intelligent, yet have a different opinion than you.  i did not review all of the material on this issue, so will not take sides.  i merely ask that those who post should review group rules, and keep it polite and civil, without offending others unnecessarily.  i value both you and jack, and ask that we be more thoughtful of our words.  its not wise for a speaker to alienate most of his audience with side issues to his main argument.  
             
            regards
            mike   
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: bigalemc2
            Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 2:40 AM
            Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: James Churchward and "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold"

            Okay.  I listened to the polite diatribe by Churchward's progeny, and his arguments are all wrong-headed.

            Like Pam Giese, I have heard Acharya S. at the Adventures Unlimited Conferences.  I don't know how much Pam knew about the subject before listening to Acharya, but I was quite well versed in a sizable portion of Acharya's arguments and the time periods she talked about, both in her book and in her presentation.  Since I was a young boy one of my great interests was the Dead Sea Scrolls.  And later on I made myself into a sort of biblical scholar sans degrees and church.  I came to the same conclusions as Acharya, but I have to tell you that her scholarship blew me away.  But we really got deep into it (from my POV, anyway), and she both knows her stuff and she is right. 

            After first hearing Acharya, I cornered her and we talked about 45 minutes on the time period and the intrigues of the period from the Maccabeans to the Council of Nicea, on Eisnemann and James the Just and Saul/Paul/The Liar, on Masada and Qumran.

            Trust me folks, Acharya is correct in her conclusions.  I was heavy into this subject myself, because I have for a very long time really wanted to know what happened back then, and what was the connection between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the early Christian community.  I had the very strong impression that the Dead Sea Scrolls community and the early Christian community were one and the same.  I thought if they were, then a lot for questions could be cleared up.  I didn't know where everything would end up, but whatever it was, I wanted to know about it.

            For a very long time, I accepted/assumed that Jesus' "corporal existence," as Jack Churchward referred to it, was a fact, but along the way I found out much that argued otherwise.  About the time Acharya's book came out, I had come to the same conclusion as she did.  Jesus never existed.  He was The Man Who Never Was, as one book about him is titled.  Most people are not aware of this, but there is not ONE SINGLE reliable document ANYWHERE that can prove he existed.  For pretty much everyone else of the period there is SOME documentation, but not the guy named Jesus.  And the idea that this was a period of low civlization without written accounts, well that is just simply not the case.  The Romans documented profusely, and the peoples of the Mediterranean basin left vast amounts of documentation.  And Judea and Galilee and Samaria were no exceptions.  If Jesus existed and had anything like the influence at the time asserted in the New Testament, MANY documents would exist - but they don't.

            If you don't count Schliemann and his discovery of Troy (which in recent years has some into question), archeology had its start when some rich, religious sorts decided to go hither into the Levant to prove the literal truth of the Bible.  For the most part, they found that most of the Bible didn't hold water.  Almost ALL Biblical scholarship has been undertaken by people sold on the truth of the Bible, yet a very high percentage of the Bible has been shown to be fallacious.  Yet - and it is an amazing thing - these same people maintain their beliefs, in spite of their own findings.  And what is more, when they came back home, they couldn't bring themselves to tell their fellow parishioners what they had found!  So, even though some of the real truth has been known in archeological circles for a very long time, the people in the pews have not been told.  Generations now have been told things that have been long since proven to be WRONG and in some cases lies, as the Christian world continues to mislead waves of children into the same cult worship.  In other words, Biblical scholarship itself is part of the Christ conspiracy, because of their unwillingness to wake up their fellow Christians to the inaccuracies and fabrications.  It is maybe the most shameful episode in Western history, but few are aware of it.

            As to Jack Churchward and his arguments, he argues that for Acharya to quote Col. Churchward, she has to include Churchward's belief system in her presentation.  Hogwash.  All researchers take research of others and re-work the arguments and facts to suit their own conclusions.  The younger Churchward accuses Acharya of perpetrating "outrageous abuse" for leaving out other things that Churchward wrote or believed.  It is not her place to present the Colonel in his entirety to her audience.

            And, to boot, her quoting of him in no way takes the Colonel out of context.  He DID say that the Osiris and Jesus stories were "wonderfully alike'," and that "many passages are identically the same, word for word."  That they both observed this and came to different conclusions is neither here nor there.  That is like saying that, because Einstein came up with a conclusion that overwrote Newtonian physics, that he could not quote or use any of Newton's work in making his case.  That is an absurd argument in the case of Einstein and Newton, and it is equally ridiculous in regards to Acharya and Churchward.

            Jack Churchward comes off as a country bumpkin living in a fantasy world where no author may quote another without presenting the original writer's belief system in toto.  Balderdash.

            Acharya's scholarship is actually amazing.  Jack C. mentions that she has "1130 notes," of which only 30 are attributed to the Colonel.  The important number there is not that she quoted him 30 times, but that her scholarship included 1100 other ones.  Leaving Churchward out would not have hurt her one iota.

            Also, young Churchward also asserts that Acharya "chose to select passages where James' credibility and prestige could sway the reader, that James' theory did not weigh heavily enough to be included elsewhere is of no concern."  Ha ha ha!  What a joke.  I assure you that including Colonel Churchward's works in her book could have nothing but a deleterious effect on her reputation.  Churchward's "credibility" (I say this in spite of the fact that I think he made some very, very good points) on a scale of 1 to 100 is about a 06.4.  NO one in the academic world gives Churchward's work anything but disdain.  If anything, including quotes from Churchward in her book ADDED to the reputation of the Colonel.

            Nuff sed.

            . . . . Steve

            P.S.  About Qumran and the Dead Sea Scrolls:  My take on it is that Qumran was a military outpost, one of the last to fall in what Josephus called The Jewish War.  The reason that the scrolls were found roght outside Qumran is because they had originally been in the Temple in Jerusalem, and when the Romans swept through Jerusalem the Rabiis spirited them out in an attempt to keep them safe.  In the process, they at some point made it to Qumran and the caves there.  When the fortress of Qumran was overrun, everyone who knew the scrolls were in the caves was killed, so their presence there was lost to history - until 1947.  This theory comes from Jonathan Golb of the University of Chicago, and I ascribe to it as the only theory that fits every fact I know.  It explains why there was such a wide perspective in the writings themselves, why the writings sound so erudite and modern (amazingly so) - not like an isolated community would have, and it explains why the Copper Scroll, with its listings of caches of gold and silver and other valuables were hidden, was there with the others (it certainly does not refer to any locations in Qumran, though many have tried to tie it to Qumran).  As a last kicker, all the assertions that the Qumranians were ascetic Essenes and librarians is simply untrue.


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          • Tom Hebert
            Hi Jack, I watched the video and can sympathize with your concerns. But I was wondering what your position is on the Churchward books. You mentioned that
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 3, 2007
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              Hi Jack,

              I watched the video and can sympathize with your concerns. But I was
              wondering what your position is on the Churchward books. You
              mentioned that both Acharya S and your great-grandfather were cherry
              pickers. Am I understanding this correctly?

              Tom


              --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, Gangchen Gonpo
              <ganggon@...> wrote:
              >
              > James Churchward and "The Christ Conspiracy: The
              > Greatest Story Ever Sold"
              >
              > In researching my great-grandfather James Churchward,
              > I am sometimes confronted with references to his
              > works. In some cases, the proposals allegedly
              > supported by James' works agree in principle with the
              > world view espoused by James. In other cases, such as
              > video games and Science Fiction adventure films, the
              > references to his works are meant as a lark and not
              > part of a scholarly work. Another category encompasses
              > those academic theories that use James' words to prove
              > something that contradicts James' world views and
              > beliefs. This is the subject of this commentary
              > podcast. While there are numerous examples, today I
              > want to address a specific instance of an author using
              > James' works to prove a theory that he himself (that
              > is, James Churchward) did not espouse. Therefore,
              > please watch the video rebuttal entitled:
              >
              > James Churchward and
              > "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold"
              > available at the following urls:
              >
              > http://jameschurchwardsmu.blogspot.com/
              > http://www.my-mu.com/podcasts/
              >
              > Jack Churchward
              > Clearwater, Florida
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ______________________________________________________________________
              ______________
              > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
              > with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
              http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
              >
            • bigalemc2
              Mike - It was not my intent to trash people of your religion. What I WAS doing was pointing out that the people who went out to find the literal truth of the
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 3, 2007
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                Mike -

                It was not my intent to trash people of "your" religion.

                What I WAS doing was pointing out that the people who went out to find
                the literal truth of the Bible found out it wasn't true, then came
                back and hid what they found from those who could use it to make up
                their minds for themselves - but only if they had the straight dope.

                Since it IS a fact that they found these things out and that thhe
                religion is, in fact, based on a history that almost all Christians
                are completely unware of, my use of the word "cult" applies to it, but
                it is not meant to denigrate the members of the church, just those who
                spread it. If that includes you specifically - i.e., if you are
                knowingly passing on false information to those who might otherwise
                decide - then shame on you, along with all those archeologists. But I
                don't think it does apply to you.

                Personally, I have been happy to discover what the real story is about
                Christianity. Just like the Columbus lie, the Clovis-first,
                head-in-the-sand attitude of American history, which you all of us
                have long disagreed with, and which has proven to be wrong, and that
                everyone here is battling to discover the truth about, Christianity
                can use the same kind of light shown on it. If a lay person was
                offended by facts about pre-Clovis Americans before Clovis was shot
                down, you would think the person was in denial or worshiping the
                status quo a little too much. Just so, I am only pointing out what I
                have found and standing up for my friend Acharya S in the process. I
                had not intent to offend, but ask that you not take offense. Facts as
                I found them argue that Christianity needs to go the way of Clovis First.

                . . . . Steve
              • Charles Mattox
                Mike, Steve, all. It has to do with basic brain washing techniques. Let s face it, if you grew up in a family that lived in a neighborhood that worshipped
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 3, 2007
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                  Mike, Steve, all.
                  It has to do with basic brain washing techniques.
                  Let's face it, if you grew up in a family that lived
                  in a neighborhood that worshipped trees as your
                  supreme being, and all of your neighbors gathered
                  together to quote some "book of the oak" that was
                  discovered as having been written during the Roman
                  dictatorship period, or anytime actually, then guess
                  what.
                  You'd be worshipping trees today.
                  There is very little thoght outside of the average
                  church doctrine being taught in any religions today.
                  The last holier than thou Jesus freak I had to listen
                  to go on and on and on about, I finally just looked at
                  him and said "so, i guess 600 million Chinese are
                  going straight to Hell when they die, huh?
                  Ofcourse I got the fire and brimstone sermon again.
                  I guess depending on who you talk to, their religious
                  beliefs are the only ones that count and nobody else's
                  is worth a hoot in Hell.
                  It's the elitist 'know it all' attitude that has
                  alsway turned me against different septs of organized
                  religion.
                  I have faith in my own beliefs, but I don't think it
                  is proper to start a Jihad over them.
                  My God is a God of peace and love and forgiveness.
                  Charles

                  --- bigalemc2 <sgtti@...> wrote:

                  > Mike -
                  >
                  > It was not my intent to trash people of "your"
                  > religion.
                  >
                  > What I WAS doing was pointing out that the people
                  > who went out to find
                  > the literal truth of the Bible found out it wasn't
                  > true, then came
                  > back and hid what they found from those who could
                  > use it to make up
                  > their minds for themselves - but only if they had
                  > the straight dope.
                  >
                  > Since it IS a fact that they found these things out
                  > and that thhe
                  > religion is, in fact, based on a history that almost
                  > all Christians
                  > are completely unware of, my use of the word "cult"
                  > applies to it, but
                  > it is not meant to denigrate the members of the
                  > church, just those who
                  > spread it. If that includes you specifically -
                  > i.e., if you are
                  > knowingly passing on false information to those who
                  > might otherwise
                  > decide - then shame on you, along with all those
                  > archeologists. But I
                  > don't think it does apply to you.
                  >
                  > Personally, I have been happy to discover what the
                  > real story is about
                  > Christianity. Just like the Columbus lie, the
                  > Clovis-first,
                  > head-in-the-sand attitude of American history, which
                  > you all of us
                  > have long disagreed with, and which has proven to be
                  > wrong, and that
                  > everyone here is battling to discover the truth
                  > about, Christianity
                  > can use the same kind of light shown on it. If a
                  > lay person was
                  > offended by facts about pre-Clovis Americans before
                  > Clovis was shot
                  > down, you would think the person was in denial or
                  > worshiping the
                  > status quo a little too much. Just so, I am only
                  > pointing out what I
                  > have found and standing up for my friend Acharya S
                  > in the process. I
                  > had not intent to offend, but ask that you not take
                  > offense. Facts as
                  > I found them argue that Christianity needs to go the
                  > way of Clovis First.
                  >
                  > . . . . Steve
                  >
                  >



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                • Vincent Barrows
                  Right on and well said. Vince Charles Mattox wrote: Mike, Steve, all. It has to do with basic brain washing techniques. Let s face
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 3, 2007
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                    Right on and well said. Vince

                    Charles Mattox <charlesmattox@...> wrote:
                    Mike, Steve, all.
                    It has to do with basic brain washing techniques.
                    Let's face it, if you grew up in a family that lived
                    in a neighborhood that worshipped trees as your
                    supreme being, and all of your neighbors gathered
                    together to quote some "book of the oak" that was
                    discovered as having been written during the Roman
                    dictatorship period, or anytime actually, then guess
                    what.
                    You'd be worshipping trees today.
                    There is very little thoght outside of the average
                    church doctrine being taught in any religions today.
                    The last holier than thou Jesus freak I had to listen
                    to go on and on and on about, I finally just looked at
                    him and said "so, i guess 600 million Chinese are
                    going straight to Hell when they die, huh?
                    Ofcourse I got the fire and brimstone sermon again.
                    I guess depending on who you talk to, their religious
                    beliefs are the only ones that count and nobody else's
                    is worth a hoot in Hell.
                    It's the elitist 'know it all' attitude that has
                    alsway turned me against different septs of organized
                    religion.
                    I have faith in my own beliefs, but I don't think it
                    is proper to start a Jihad over them.
                    My God is a God of peace and love and forgiveness.
                    Charles

                    --- bigalemc2 <sgtti@joltmail. com> wrote:

                    > Mike -
                    >
                    > It was not my intent to trash people of "your"
                    > religion.
                    >
                    > What I WAS doing was pointing out that the people
                    > who went out to find
                    > the literal truth of the Bible found out it wasn't
                    > true, then came
                    > back and hid what they found from those who could
                    > use it to make up
                    > their minds for themselves - but only if they had
                    > the straight dope.
                    >
                    > Since it IS a fact that they found these things out
                    > and that thhe
                    > religion is, in fact, based on a history that almost
                    > all Christians
                    > are completely unware of, my use of the word "cult"
                    > applies to it, but
                    > it is not meant to denigrate the members of the
                    > church, just those who
                    > spread it. If that includes you specifically -
                    > i.e., if you are
                    > knowingly passing on false information to those who
                    > might otherwise
                    > decide - then shame on you, along with all those
                    > archeologists. But I
                    > don't think it does apply to you.
                    >
                    > Personally, I have been happy to discover what the
                    > real story is about
                    > Christianity. Just like the Columbus lie, the
                    > Clovis-first,
                    > head-in-the- sand attitude of American history, which
                    > you all of us
                    > have long disagreed with, and which has proven to be
                    > wrong, and that
                    > everyone here is battling to discover the truth
                    > about, Christianity
                    > can use the same kind of light shown on it. If a
                    > lay person was
                    > offended by facts about pre-Clovis Americans before
                    > Clovis was shot
                    > down, you would think the person was in denial or
                    > worshiping the
                    > status quo a little too much. Just so, I am only
                    > pointing out what I
                    > have found and standing up for my friend Acharya S
                    > in the process. I
                    > had not intent to offend, but ask that you not take
                    > offense. Facts as
                    > I found them argue that Christianity needs to go the
                    > way of Clovis First.
                    >
                    > . . . . Steve
                    >
                    >

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                  • mike white
                    hi tom, all i remind members to stay on our topics as much as possible, personal remarks are ok. our focus is not on religion or politics, both of which cause
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 4, 2007
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                      hi tom, all
                       
                         i remind members to stay on our topics as much as possible, personal remarks are ok.  our focus is not on religion or politics, both of which cause division and conflict.  we were discussing the tablets of dr niven found in mexico.  somehow, this got us to churchward, who had spoke of them.  this took us on a tangent to another author who had cited churchward.  the book given in the subject has nothing to do with precolumbian_inscriptions, and churchward's work has only a remote connection, that of tablets he cited, and his references to a pacific mother culture. 
                         nobody is preaching here, we try to limit references and remarks that may be offensive to some.  we would do the same if buddha was maligned, or his doctrine faulted .  there are other groups and forums to dispute religious claims and dogma.  they are not permitted here, please return to our primary focus. 
                       
                      mike
                      host
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:24 AM
                      Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: James Churchward and "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold"

                      Hi Jack,

                      I watched the video and can sympathize with your concerns. But I was
                      wondering what your position is on the Churchward books. You
                      mentioned that both Acharya S and your great-grandfather were cherry
                      pickers. Am I understanding this correctly?

                      Tom

                      --- In Precolumbian_ Inscriptions@ yahoogroups. com, Gangchen Gonpo
                      <ganggon@... > wrote:
                      >
                      > James Churchward and "The Christ Conspiracy: The
                      > Greatest Story Ever Sold"
                      >
                      > In researching my great-grandfather James Churchward,
                      > I am sometimes confronted with references to his
                      > works. In some cases, the proposals allegedly
                      > supported by James' works agree in principle with the
                      > world view espoused by James. In other cases, such as
                      > video games and Science Fiction adventure films, the
                      > references to his works are meant as a lark and not
                      > part of a scholarly work. Another category encompasses
                      > those academic theories that use James' words to prove
                      > something that contradicts James' world views and
                      > beliefs. This is the subject of this commentary
                      > podcast. While there are numerous examples, today I
                      > want to address a specific instance of an author using
                      > James' works to prove a theory that he himself (that
                      > is, James Churchward) did not espouse. Therefore,
                      > please watch the video rebuttal entitled:
                      >
                      > James Churchward and
                      > "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold"
                      > available at the following urls:
                      >
                      > http://jameschurchw ardsmu.blogspot. com/
                      > http://www.my- mu.com/podcasts/
                      >
                      > Jack Churchward
                      > Clearwater, Florida
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                      ____________ __
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                    • hilgren
                      lol,,,,,thanks mike and charles and all the tree huggers out there. i was not trying to change the subject with the geography of vinland post,,,but seeing the
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 4, 2007
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                        lol,,,,,thanks mike and charles and all the tree huggers out there. i
                        was not trying to change the subject with the geography of vinland
                        post,,,but seeing the direction these other posts were taking i had
                        tried to offer up another area of discussion...(and change the
                        subject),,,(sorry steve2)too...
                        that fine line between sensorship and when someone wants to slip in a
                        personal dig against,,say,,, ANOTHER 200 billion for a war
                        ,,and,,or,,,but not having to fear that because they named their dog
                        mohomid,, would now have to fear 20 lashes and deportation...woow,,,???

                        and then copywrites and plagiarizing,,,,ugg...

                        for us simple folk,,,,
                        it kinda leave me wanting to head for a cave and not say anything,,
                        and leave the real treasured buried..
                        ..........................

                        i have been reading many old posts of this site trying to gain some
                        insight as to how to handle these posts that may be way over the line
                        to someone else...

                        as moderator of AVA i want to avoid these pitfalls but yet not be a
                        sensor...(my only big challenge to date has been keeping the biker
                        babe from trying to solicit us into joining her dating site,,,and i do
                        not even own a motor-cycle)

                        though i find these discussions of the southern of the two americas
                        very interesting(centrals amerca too),,,(hey,,i might learn something
                        useful too), my primary focus is the explorers of the nothern most of
                        the america,s and those that left behind an inscription 150 years
                        before columbus...the kensington runestone...KRS

                        i am trying to educate others about the runestone and ask for help in
                        solving this puzzle too.
                        ,,,and too,,,i spent 5 months last summer in the field(literally),,,,
                        and woods and lakes looking for more proof of these ancient explorers...
                        and now this season i do my reading and internet work,,,
                        and i am trying both to give everyone an update as to the latest
                        research and discovery,s,,,,and also to toss around some new ideas...

                        but maybe i should sit and wait until the discusions drift back to
                        north america pre columbian discussions?...(if any one even cares for
                        that subject ???)

                        so since i have nothing to contribute about the ancients of south
                        america,,,,,
                        i shall wait until asked,,,before i try to give more answers..

                        thanks all

                        from my side the mountain,,,

                        here here,,to less division and conflicts,,

                        have a great holidays and enjoy life always,,

                        steve(the other steve),,,,,,aka,,sherm and the WAYBACKS

                        AVA,,,,,
                        http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientVikingsAmerica/

                        .......
                        .............
                        --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com, "mike white"
                        <infoplz@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > hi tom, all
                        >
                        > i remind members to stay on our topics as much as possible,
                        personal remarks are ok. our focus is not on religion or politics,
                        both of which cause division and conflict.
                      • Phil Whitley
                        And it s Pre-Columbian, not to mention being Inscribed - a perfect subject for this forum... Rare Maya Death Vase Discovered
                        Message 11 of 16 , Dec 4, 2007
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                          And it's Pre-Columbian, not to mention being "Inscribed" - a perfect subject for this forum...

                          Rare Maya "Death Vase" Discovered

                          http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071203-maya-vase.html  in case that hot link doesn't work.

                          The opening paragraph of the article...

                          An extremely rare and intricately carved "death vase" has been discovered in the 1,400-year-old grave of an elite figure with ties to the Maya Empire, scientists say. The vase is the first of its kind to be found in modern times, and its contents are opening a window onto ancient rituals of ancestor worship that included food offerings, chocolate enemas, and hallucinations induced by vomiting, experts say.

                          I have seen an engraving that portrayed a Mayan (king?) receiving an enema. Several vessels designed for this purpose have been found and identified. Chocolate must have tasted very different then to bypass the normal method of ingestion.

                          Brew
                        • Gangchen Gonpo
                          Hi Mike, I agree that this was posted in the wrong forum, I ll try hard to avoid making the mistake again in the future. I have provided written replies to
                          Message 12 of 16 , Dec 4, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Mike,
                            I agree that this was posted in the wrong forum, I'll
                            try hard to avoid making the mistake again in the
                            future.

                            I have provided written replies to some individuals,
                            but if anyone wishes to continue the discussion,
                            please send me an email or place your comments on the
                            my-mu.com blog at:
                            http://www.jameschurchwardsmu.blogspot.com/

                            Jack Churchward
                            Clearwater, Florida

                            --- mike white <infoplz@...> wrote:

                            >
                            > hi tom, all
                            >
                            > i remind members to stay on our topics as much as
                            > possible, personal remarks are ok. our focus is not
                            > on religion or politics, both of which cause
                            > division and conflict. we were discussing the
                            > tablets of dr niven found in mexico. somehow, this
                            > got us to churchward, who had spoke of them. this
                            > took us on a tangent to another author who had cited
                            > churchward. the book given in the subject has
                            > nothing to do with precolumbian_inscriptions, and
                            > churchward's work has only a remote connection, that
                            > of tablets he cited, and his references to a pacific
                            > mother culture.
                            > nobody is preaching here, we try to limit
                            > references and remarks that may be offensive to
                            > some. we would do the same if buddha was maligned,
                            > or his doctrine faulted . there are other groups
                            > and forums to dispute religious claims and dogma.
                            > they are not permitted here, please return to our
                            > primary focus.
                            >
                            > mike
                            > host
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Tom Hebert
                            > To: Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:24 AM
                            > Subject: [Precolumbian_Inscriptions] Re: James
                            > Churchward and "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest
                            > Story Ever Sold"
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Jack,
                            >
                            > I watched the video and can sympathize with your
                            > concerns. But I was
                            > wondering what your position is on the Churchward
                            > books. You
                            > mentioned that both Acharya S and your
                            > great-grandfather were cherry
                            > pickers. Am I understanding this correctly?
                            >
                            > Tom
                            >
                            > --- In Precolumbian_Inscriptions@yahoogroups.com,
                            > Gangchen Gonpo
                            > <ganggon@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > James Churchward and "The Christ Conspiracy: The
                            > > Greatest Story Ever Sold"
                            > >
                            > > In researching my great-grandfather James
                            > Churchward,
                            > > I am sometimes confronted with references to his
                            > > works. In some cases, the proposals allegedly
                            > > supported by James' works agree in principle
                            > with the
                            > > world view espoused by James. In other cases,
                            > such as
                            > > video games and Science Fiction adventure films,
                            > the
                            > > references to his works are meant as a lark and
                            > not
                            > > part of a scholarly work. Another category
                            > encompasses
                            > > those academic theories that use James' words to
                            > prove
                            > > something that contradicts James' world views
                            > and
                            > > beliefs. This is the subject of this commentary
                            > > podcast. While there are numerous examples,
                            > today I
                            > > want to address a specific instance of an author
                            > using
                            > > James' works to prove a theory that he himself
                            > (that
                            > > is, James Churchward) did not espouse.
                            > Therefore,
                            > > please watch the video rebuttal entitled:
                            > >
                            > > James Churchward and
                            > > "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever
                            > Sold"
                            > > available at the following urls:
                            > >
                            > > http://jameschurchwardsmu.blogspot.com/
                            > > http://www.my-mu.com/podcasts/
                            > >
                            > > Jack Churchward
                            > > Clearwater, Florida




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